Animals as PCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animals as PCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Halcyonn
12-19-05, 03:44 AM I've not had much experience with letting my players play any monsters. That being said, one of my players wants to play an intelligent dire badger. What kind of things should I consider when allowing him to play a badger? For example, would the badger be able to wear armor? Anyway, any ideas would help. Thanks.

Halcyonn
Slyde Shadowdart
12-19-05, 04:22 AM You're going into "houserule and make stuff up" territory. I congratulate you for even considering allowing it.

First, I'd ask this: Would it fit the game at all? There's no shame in giving it consideration, deciding that it doesn't work for the current game, and letting the player know this. Perhaps it would work in a future game.

Next, on to what you'll do to make it feasible. First, if it were possible that in your world, a Dire Badger could become Jonnathen Menkas, the Dire Badger fighter, you have to consider that it's possible that someone is making armor for these Dire Badger fighters. Simply rule that there is armor of every type available, fitted to his form. If he's unique in the world, it could be an adventure in and of itself to find a smith with the "amount of talent" needed to craft such armor. Same goes for other equipment.

This would easily allow him to play what he wants, without there being any needlessly complicated discussion (and potential argument) that would come with making him "so unique that he can't find armor that fits" (if that makes sense; sorry, it's a bit late here;)).

If you're looking for a more crunchy way of doing it, I'm afraid I'm not really your guy. I dislike needlessly complicating things such as this.

Also, if he's not completely unique, then he's not all that out of place in the world. He would probably not draw any more (or less) attention than a Kobold PC. If he is unique, then there's boundless roleplaying opportunities just waiting for you to delve into them.
MinusInnocence
12-19-05, 05:15 AM Dire Badgers are Medium creatures; now, this character isn't a humanoid, so it can't technically wear armor. It can, however, wear barding, the rules for which can be found on PHB v3.5, p131. Barding for Medium creatures weighs the same as armor for a Human and costs twice as much. Aside from that, it's basically the same stuff (except he will need someone to help him out of it at night; make sure to read up on the rules for chafing).

Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons. Armor Spikes seem fine, and maybe he could take the Improved Natural Attack feat from the Monster Manual for his Claws and Bite attacks (this might as well be treated as a Fighter Bonus Feat). I imagine most of this character's money for gear will be spent upgrading his armor and having Greater Magic Fang made permanent on him. Remember, natural attacks are always treated as light weapons, so he can take Weapon Finesse and go to town.

An optimal character? Not even close. But a fun one, certainly.
Slyde Shadowdart
12-19-05, 05:35 AM Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons.

Again, you could just as easily rule that he's a "special", bipedal, nearly humanoid, evolved Dire Badger with thumbs.

My take would be to make it as absolutely playable as possible to avoid getting bogged down in the (needlessly complicated) details.

Break out of the WotC mindset and play for fun instead of for being "correct". It can be done. :)
Millennium
12-19-05, 08:26 AM This is what I'd suggest:

1) Start with the stats for the animal being used.
2) Apply the awaken spell. Nonsentient creatures aren't much fun to play, but this spell fixes that problem in a pretty decently-balanced way.
3) I think Savage Species had an "Anthropomorphic" template which could be applied to animals. You should seriously consider using this or something like it. Otherwise, your dire badger isn't going to have things like opposable thumbs, and this can provide some interesting challenges. If the thought of those challenges appeals to you, then by all means go for it, but be aware of what you're doing.

Awakened animals can be fun to play. At some point, I want to play an awakened monkey bard who plays cymbals, just for the "aww, lookit the cute widdle monkey" factor.
imperialjunkie
12-19-05, 08:32 AM As far as the rules are concerned, just make it an awakened badger. That solves the existence of an intelligent animal issue. There could be some debate on whether or not an awakened badger can take class levels since it isn't humanoid, but you can just houserule that. As others have mentioned, armor should be possible, but it would certainly be unique and thus cost a premium. I'd probably allow the badger to use weapons regardless of thumbs or not.

You also might have to consider any LA. If it is a Dire Badger, it has 3 racial Hit Dice, +3 natural armor, the Rage ability, and the following ability adjustments: Str +4, Dex +6, Con +8, and no negatives to Int given the awakened condition. Given this, I'd give it a LA of at least +2. But probably +3 given the ability adjustments.
revnk
12-19-05, 01:55 PM Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons.

Or he might be able to get a weapon hilt modified so it could be "held" in his paws. You could simply rule that Mr. Badger has a -6, say, when using humanoid weapons and no penalty when using "badgerfied" weapons (the converse would apply if one of his companions tries to use the badger's equipment in an emergency).

If such animals are common, as Slyde mentioned they could be, it's possible such modifications are routine and add no cost to a weapon. Indeed, even if such creatures are rare, there wasn't exactly a "mass production" of items in medieval economy--meaning that almost every sword is part of a commission and a smith probably could be hired to make badger weapons for exactly as much as it would cost to make a "standard" weapon.

If animal characters are common, you might also consider the class-based AC variant from Unearthed Arcana: this rule allows characters to have decent ACs without having to be covered in sheet metal.

I've long toyed with the idea of a C.S. Lewis or Kenneth Grahame-inspired campaign with common talking animals: I sincerely wish you and your player the best of luck in pulling this off, it really sounds awesome.
Halcyonn
12-19-05, 02:45 PM Thanks for the suggestions, guys! I think what my player was looking to do was play an awakened badger (he never actually said "dire", I might be wrong in assuming). He didn't want to play an anthropomorphic badger, he wasn't interested in swords and I suggested the improved natural attack feat. I like the armor ideas too, for some reason I didn't think of barding. Thanks again.

Halcyonn
Ozymandias V.
12-19-05, 02:51 PM I would rule that he cannot wield weapons without a magic item that grants him thumbs, and
that he wears BARDING the same way other animals do, and calculate the cost accordingly.
imperialjunkie
12-19-05, 02:57 PM I think what my player was looking to do was play an awakened badger (he never actually said "dire", I might be wrong in assuming).
If it's a regular badger it probably wouldn't have an LA since it has only 1HD and less attractive stat boosts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halcyonn 12-19-05, 03:44 AM	I've not had much experience with letting my players play any monsters. That being said, one of my players wants to play an intelligent dire badger. What kind of things should I consider when allowing him to play a badger? For example, would the badger be able to wear armor? Anyway, any ideas would help. Thanks. Halcyonn
Slyde Shadowdart 12-19-05, 04:22 AM	You're going into "houserule and make stuff up" territory. I congratulate you for even considering allowing it. First, I'd ask this: Would it fit the game at all? There's no shame in giving it consideration, deciding that it doesn't work for the current game, and letting the player know this. Perhaps it would work in a future game. Next, on to what you'll do to make it feasible. First, if it were possible that in your world, a Dire Badger could become Jonnathen Menkas, the Dire Badger fighter, you have to consider that it's possible that someone is making armor for these Dire Badger fighters. Simply rule that there is armor of every type available, fitted to his form. If he's unique in the world, it could be an adventure in and of itself to find a smith with the "amount of talent" needed to craft such armor. Same goes for other equipment. This would easily allow him to play what he wants, without there being any needlessly complicated discussion (and potential argument) that would come with making him "so unique that he can't find armor that fits" (if that makes sense; sorry, it's a bit late here;)). If you're looking for a more crunchy way of doing it, I'm afraid I'm not really your guy. I dislike needlessly complicating things such as this. Also, if he's not completely unique, then he's not all that out of place in the world. He would probably not draw any more (or less) attention than a Kobold PC. If he is unique, then there's boundless roleplaying opportunities just waiting for you to delve into them.
MinusInnocence 12-19-05, 05:15 AM	Dire Badgers are Medium creatures; now, this character isn't a humanoid, so it can't technically wear armor. It can, however, wear barding, the rules for which can be found on PHB v3.5, p131. Barding for Medium creatures weighs the same as armor for a Human and costs twice as much. Aside from that, it's basically the same stuff (except he will need someone to help him out of it at night; make sure to read up on the rules for chafing). Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons. Armor Spikes seem fine, and maybe he could take the Improved Natural Attack feat from the Monster Manual for his Claws and Bite attacks (this might as well be treated as a Fighter Bonus Feat). I imagine most of this character's money for gear will be spent upgrading his armor and having Greater Magic Fang made permanent on him. Remember, natural attacks are always treated as light weapons, so he can take Weapon Finesse and go to town. An optimal character? Not even close. But a fun one, certainly.
Slyde Shadowdart 12-19-05, 05:35 AM	Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons. Again, you could just as easily rule that he's a "special", bipedal, nearly humanoid, evolved Dire Badger with thumbs. My take would be to make it as absolutely playable as possible to avoid getting bogged down in the (needlessly complicated) details. Break out of the WotC mindset and play for fun instead of for being "correct". It can be done. :)
Millennium 12-19-05, 08:26 AM	This is what I'd suggest: 1) Start with the stats for the animal being used. 2) Apply the awaken spell. Nonsentient creatures aren't much fun to play, but this spell fixes that problem in a pretty decently-balanced way. 3) I think Savage Species had an "Anthropomorphic" template which could be applied to animals. You should seriously consider using this or something like it. Otherwise, your dire badger isn't going to have things like opposable thumbs, and this can provide some interesting challenges. If the thought of those challenges appeals to you, then by all means go for it, but be aware of what you're doing. Awakened animals can be fun to play. At some point, I want to play an awakened monkey bard who plays cymbals, just for the "aww, lookit the cute widdle monkey" factor.
imperialjunkie 12-19-05, 08:32 AM	As far as the rules are concerned, just make it an awakened badger. That solves the existence of an intelligent animal issue. There could be some debate on whether or not an awakened badger can take class levels since it isn't humanoid, but you can just houserule that. As others have mentioned, armor should be possible, but it would certainly be unique and thus cost a premium. I'd probably allow the badger to use weapons regardless of thumbs or not. You also might have to consider any LA. If it is a Dire Badger, it has 3 racial Hit Dice, +3 natural armor, the Rage ability, and the following ability adjustments: Str +4, Dex +6, Con +8, and no negatives to Int given the awakened condition. Given this, I'd give it a LA of at least +2. But probably +3 given the ability adjustments.
revnk 12-19-05, 01:55 PM	Keep in mind a Dire Badger, even an Awakened one, has no thumbs. Thus, he cannot wield weapons. Or he might be able to get a weapon hilt modified so it could be "held" in his paws. You could simply rule that Mr. Badger has a -6, say, when using humanoid weapons and no penalty when using "badgerfied" weapons (the converse would apply if one of his companions tries to use the badger's equipment in an emergency). If such animals are common, as Slyde mentioned they could be, it's possible such modifications are routine and add no cost to a weapon. Indeed, even if such creatures are rare, there wasn't exactly a "mass production" of items in medieval economy--meaning that almost every sword is part of a commission and a smith probably could be hired to make badger weapons for exactly as much as it would cost to make a "standard" weapon. If animal characters are common, you might also consider the class-based AC variant from Unearthed Arcana: this rule allows characters to have decent ACs without having to be covered in sheet metal. I've long toyed with the idea of a C.S. Lewis or Kenneth Grahame-inspired campaign with common talking animals: I sincerely wish you and your player the best of luck in pulling this off, it really sounds awesome.
Halcyonn 12-19-05, 02:45 PM	Thanks for the suggestions, guys! I think what my player was looking to do was play an awakened badger (he never actually said "dire", I might be wrong in assuming). He didn't want to play an anthropomorphic badger, he wasn't interested in swords and I suggested the improved natural attack feat. I like the armor ideas too, for some reason I didn't think of barding. Thanks again. Halcyonn
Ozymandias V. 12-19-05, 02:51 PM	I would rule that he cannot wield weapons without a magic item that grants him thumbs, and that he wears BARDING the same way other animals do, and calculate the cost accordingly.
imperialjunkie 12-19-05, 02:57 PM	I think what my player was looking to do was play an awakened badger (he never actually said "dire", I might be wrong in assuming). If it's a regular badger it probably wouldn't have an LA since it has only 1HD and less attractive stat boosts.