Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_time 10-17-07, 11:00 AM	OK I search alittle and didn't find this one. Can an animal take character classes or what would your int have to be for that? Is there a min int score to gain character classes in the RAW? Would my player have to gain 4 HD as a wolf first then gain fighter levels if he put the point from leveling on int? Is there a page or link that deals with this problem? We don't want the awaking spell. We want to do like a self aware animals that slowly gain int over time. Any help? Thanks! Playing today and she wants it? We are 3rd level now but will be going to 4th soon.
Mindolin 10-17-07, 11:08 AM	You're really out of luck then. I think the ability point you get is through class levels, not just HD, because the monsters in the Monster Manual don't show it. Still, it could work, as the rules are vague on the point I mentioned, so you might get it. For character classes, the minimum intelligence is ALWAYS 3. I know you say you don't want it, but the best thing for a animal to allow them to take class levels would be awaken.
Prince_of_Parkness 10-17-07, 11:08 AM	OK I search alittle and didn't find this one. Can an animal take character classes or what would your int have to be for that? Is there a min int score to gain character classes in the RAW? Would my player have to gain 4 HD as a wolf first then gain fighter levels if he put the point from leveling on int? Is there a page or link that deals with this problem? We don't want the awaking spell. We want to do like a self aware animals that slowly gain int over time. Any help? Thanks! Playing today and she wants it? We are 3rd level now but will be going to 4th soon. Im pretty sure you need 3 of every mental state to make a "playable character", and by RAW i dont think you can. But i like the idea, time for some rule 0-ing
wrecan 10-17-07, 11:13 AM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm): Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels * * * Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice Animals are advanced by HD, not class level. A dog cannot take class levels. That said, animals don't gain XP either: Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. Once a run-of-the mill wolf, always a run-of-the mill wolf. The only exception is an animal companion, which is a class feature of the druid or ranger. Those animals increase in HD and other stats as their master gains XP. They do not gain XP themselves. If your player has his heart set on playing a wolf, then have him play a wolf that has been Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm). At that point he becomes an Intelligent Magical Beast and can begin to gain class levels. Note that an awakened wolf begins with 4 Hit Dice, and thus has an ECL of 4. (He should also get another 2 Magical Beast levels worth of skills, a feat and an ability point.) This might make the wolf PC more powerful than his fellow PCs, so you might want the Awakening spell come with a curse that inflicts a few negative levels he has to buy off with XP before he picks up his first class level at 5th level.
Senevri 10-17-07, 11:14 AM	If an animal's intelligence is raised above 2, I think it counts as a Magical Beast afterwards. I guess you could argue that a magic item raising INT doesn't count.
Sinfire Titan 10-17-07, 11:27 AM	You may have to use the Anthropomorphic Template in the Savage Species book, as animals can't gain class levels without the Awaken spell.
Ace_of_time 10-17-07, 11:37 AM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm): Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels * * * Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice Animals are advanced by HD, not class level. A dog cannot take class levels. That said, animals don't gain XP either: Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. Once a run-of-the mill wolf, always a run-of-the mill wolf. The only exception is an animal companion, which is a class feature of the druid or ranger. Those animals increase in HD and other stats as their master gains XP. They do not gain XP themselves. If your player has his heart set on playing a wolf, then have him play a wolf that has been Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm). At that point he becomes an Intelligent Magical Beast and can begin to gain class levels. Note that an awakened wolf begins with 4 Hit Dice, and thus has an ECL of 4. (He should also get another 2 Magical Beast levels worth of skills, a feat and an ability point.) This might make the wolf PC more powerful than his fellow PCs, so you might want the Awakening spell come with a curse that inflicts a few negative levels he has to buy off with XP before he picks up his first class level at 5th level. I see your point in the SRD but it doesn't really say they have it just says they can level by HD. I take that to mean that the common races must level by classes and can't take HD but others can do ether/or. Other wise dragon wouldn't be able to mluti class. As to the int thing yes you can move int of a animal up above 2 and at that time it becames magical beast. It is in the back of the MM under animals. Just didn't know if the rule said anything about a min int. If so then she would have to gain 4 HD and move the wolf up to large first. she doesn't realy want to be large size but will if she has to. Everything I have read says she would keep the animal HD but would gain magical beast HD on the next level up. There is also a paly unicorn in the MM. I think they are suposed to be min of 3 int. Note: any ideas on starting gold? The MM says no treasure for animals. But I think that is only if you killed them.
Ace_of_time 10-17-07, 11:49 AM	I found something and I'm posting it for you all. Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. Ability Scores for Monster PCs: While a monsters statistics give the ability scores for a typical creature of a certain kind, any “monster” creature that becomes an adventurer is definitely not typical. Therefore, when creating a PC from a creature, check to see if the creature’s entry has any ability scores of 10 or higher. If so, for each score, subtract 10 (if the score is even) or 11 (if the score is odd) to get the creature’s modifier for that ability based on its race or kind. Generate the character’s ability scores as normal, then add the racial ability modifiers to get their ability scores. Note: Some monsters have base ability scores other than 10 and 11. If alternate scores were used this will be indicated in the monster entry. Also, some monsters that make good PCs have their racial ability modifiers and other traits already listed in their monster entry. For ability scores lower than 10, the procedure is different. First, determine the character’s ability scores, and compare that number to the monster’s average ability score, using either the table below that applies to Intelligence or the table that applies to the other five ability scores. The separate table for Intelligence ensures that no PC ends up with an Intelligence score lower than 3. This is important, because creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 are not playable characters. Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable. So I'm taking this to means that they have to have a 3 for class levels. I think it has to be a 10 aleast for spell not including the class ability score needed? So if at 5th she could go cleric but wouldn't get spells until her int score reached 10?
wrecan 10-17-07, 02:11 PM	A cleric gets spells based on Wisdom, not Intelligence. A cleric can have a 3 Wis. Just start the character with a wolf who had the Awaken spell cast on her. She'll be 4th level (2 wolf HD and 2 HD estowed by the spell), but she can then begin earning XP. Start her out with zero gp. (What does a wolf do with money anyway? She can't use weapons or shields... any armor will have to be custom made.) This will partially make up for the fact that she is starting with 4 racial Hit Dice. Also, have her been the recipient of bestow curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) that gives her a -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. She'll need to save up enough treasure to buy a remove curse spell (150 gp), which will help keep her on par with the other PCs. Let her take her first character level at 5th level.
pres_man 10-17-07, 03:07 PM	Want to play an awakened wolf, why not just play a worg? An animal that is advanced does not have the option to raise its intelligence, except in the situation where it started with a INT 1, which it could raise to INT 2. But for animals INT 2 is the max, no higher. Now if you don't want to add on more HD just to make the creature intelligent (as per the Awaken spell), just do some hand waving and say the animal was "awakened" some other way. One thing to keep in mind though, a creature with paws or such may have a hard time being a caster as they would not be able to do somantic components of spells (hence why the Natural Spell feat is useful for druids).
Ace_of_time 10-17-07, 05:54 PM	Didn't want to play awaked. She decided to play it as a animal till leveled up. She got armor pro light. She is going with the story of a war trained wolf who's master was kiled and now she is hunting down the killers. I thought your int had to be least 10 to even cast any spells but wasn't for sure so if some one knows please post. She is going 4th level wolve for large size and making tank. plans on cleric (nature god) or fighter depending on what I find out at 5th.
wrecan 10-17-07, 06:13 PM	Didn't want to play awaked. She decided to play it as a animal till leveled up. She got armor pro light. She is going with the story of a war trained wolf who's master was kiled and now she is hunting down the killers. I thought your int had to be least 10 to even cast any spells but wasn't for sure so if some one knows please post. She is going 4th level wolve for large size and making tank. plans on cleric (nature god) or fighter depending on what I find out at 5th. You don't need Int 10 to cast clerical spells. You need a Wisdom of 10+ Spell level. You need an Int of 3 to take character classes. Animals do not Advance in size as they "level up" because animals don't "level up". As the description says, creatures who are advanced represent "superior" specimens. In other words, they are born with the Advancements. They don't earn them. If you want to house-rule differently, that's fine. But you should come up with some in-game justification as to how a wolf uses XP to go from dog-size (medium) to horse-size (large) and how it becomes of human-level Intelligence (3) -- albeit seriously learning disabled. For money, I'd just let her have the equipment that makes sense for a trained war-dog, which is no better than a chain shirt (see below), maybe with armor spikes. A 2-Int wolf shouldn't care about money or even understand what it's used for. Once the creature takes on an Int 3 (at 4 racial levels), I would change its type to Magical Beast, which gives it a larger HD (d10 instead of d8), a better BAB progression (fighter instead of cleric) and darkvision instead of low-light vision, as well as immunity to spells that otherwise affect animals (like Charm Animal or Hide from Animals or, unfortunately, Speak With Animals). And she can choose an alignment other than True Neutral. She can also at that point choose a Language to understand. Two languages in the game are even speakable for dogs -- worg and and blink dog -- which won't really be useful unless other PCs take the language too. You might allow the wolf to communicate in any other language it chooses through yips and growls. Another note: Animals don't have any armor proficiency. If she wants to wear armor before she gets her second feat at third level, she'll have to sacrifice Weapon Focus (bite) for Armor Proficiency (Light). (She'll gain armor proficiency as soon as she takes a level of cleric at 5th level, so she may want to go around unarmored until then, rather than waste the Feat.)
JackSnape 10-17-07, 06:31 PM	let me start by saying, Everyone elso who has posted is right. The best way is awaken. Here's what I would do if a player was REALLY against awaken. Your PC is a wolf with the warbeast template who has has a wizard cast wish on her. Her int is now 4, and she has armor proficiency as well as better AC than an average wolf.k She has low int but can gain more as she gains class levels.
Fireclave 10-17-07, 06:46 PM	Didn't want to play awaked...She is going with the story of a war trained wolf who's master was kiled and now she is hunting down the killers. This level of conviction for persuing vengence is something that animals lack the conigtive capacity to neither understand or persue. She really does want to play an awakened wolf. It doesn't have to be particulary smart or cunning wolf, but humanoid level intelligence is a must for this backstory to make sense.
pres_man 10-17-07, 10:28 PM	Didn't want to play awaked. Actually you do, just not according to the spell. Just make something up, perhaps a nature deity chose to make the wolf changed. It now is a magical beast, and gets a 3 INT. But the change is drastic, it loses all of its animal trained tricks (sorry no training for barding, take a level in fighter), but it understands a language (I suggest sylvan) though poorly (only a few words). I thought your int had to be least 10 to even cast any spells but wasn't for sure so if some one knows please post. She is going 4th level wolve for large size and making tank. plans on cleric (nature god) or fighter depending on what I find out at 5th. As said above, clerics depend on Wisdom not Intelligence for spellcasting, though it should be noted that you can use a wand for a spell on your spell list even if you can't cast it normally. So a cleric with a Wis of 8 could still use a wand of cure light wounds.
Nor'Morgwae 10-18-07, 12:53 AM	Okay, I'm going to flatly disagree with almost everyone who has posted so far. Awaken isn't the best way. Here's why: Awaken sticks you with racial HD which suck (animal are the worst HD in the game). That really isn't much fun for the player. Here's what I would do in my game. Make a new race of wolves designed as PCs. Take the MM wold entry, strip off the 2 racial hit dice and turn it into a race with no LA (because LA's are no fun for players.) and probably make it a magical beast (because an animal with more than 3 int is a magical beast). It would probably look something like this: Sapient Wolf Magical Beast + 2 Dex, - 2 int: Sapient wolves are quick and agile but aren't quite as intelligent as most of the humanoid races. Medium: As Medium creatures, sapient wolves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Sapient Wolf base land speed is 50 feet. Low Light Vision: A sapient wolf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. Bite: Sapient wolves have a natural bite attack for 1d6 damage. Scent:Sapient wolves have the scent ability as described in the MM. Handless: Sapient wolves have no hands or other fine manipulators. They may use their mouth for some manipulation but cannot perform delicate or exact tasks (such as tying a rope, picking a lock or wielding a weapon). Sapient wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. Automatic Languages: Common and Wolf (no really, they can talk to wolves). You'll notice that there are a few wolf things they don't have, like the 2 natural armor, track and trip. That is because these are a little too much for a 0 LA race. The drawback of having no hands is big and so they keep things like scent, their movement speed and the like to compensate. If you feel they are still a little under powered then I would give them Track or the AC bonus back but do not give them trip, it's too dangerous ability for a PC to have (because I would fear exploitation). Otherwise treat them as any other characters. If you want a special twist, I believe you mentioned becoming more intelligent as you progress, then just add that on top. So they might start with an int of 3 and as they grow more human-like in intellect they gain the intelligence (up to whatever the character would normally have). I would let them retroactively gain skill points as well but only until they have reached their normal Int, after that no more retroactive int bonuses ( this is just so the character isn't totally screwed on skills, especially since they are skills the character should have had anyway).
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 12:54 AM	You don't need Int 10 to cast clerical spells. You need a Wisdom of 10+ Spell level. You need an Int of 3 to take character classes. Animals do not Advance in size as they "level up" because animals don't "level up". As the description says, creatures who are advanced represent "superior" specimens. In other words, they are born with the Advancements. They don't earn them. If you want to house-rule differently, that's fine. But you should come up with some in-game justification as to how a wolf uses XP to go from dog-size (medium) to horse-size (large) and how it becomes of human-level Intelligence (3) -- albeit seriously learning disabled. For money, I'd just let her have the equipment that makes sense for a trained war-dog, which is no better than a chain shirt (see below), maybe with armor spikes. A 2-Int wolf shouldn't care about money or even understand what it's used for. Once the creature takes on an Int 3 (at 4 racial levels), I would change its type to Magical Beast, which gives it a larger HD (d10 instead of d8), a better BAB progression (fighter instead of cleric) and darkvision instead of low-light vision, as well as immunity to spells that otherwise affect animals (like Charm Animal or Hide from Animals or, unfortunately, Speak With Animals). And she can choose an alignment other than True Neutral. She can also at that point choose a Language to understand. Two languages in the game are even speakable for dogs -- worg and and blink dog -- which won't really be useful unless other PCs take the language too. You might allow the wolf to communicate in any other language it chooses through yips and growls. Another note: Animals don't have any armor proficiency. If she wants to wear armor before she gets her second feat at third level, she'll have to sacrifice Weapon Focus (bite) for Armor Proficiency (Light). (She'll gain armor proficiency as soon as she takes a level of cleric at 5th level, so she may want to go around unarmored until then, rather than waste the Feat.) Ok first is this. then I'll address the rest. WOLF Medium Animal Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Trip Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Survival +1* Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite) Environment: Temperate forests Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (7–16) Challenge Rating: 1 Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — I hope that takes care of that. Now We decided that the things she started with would be given/brought by her master before her master was murdered and she was take captive and was trying to escape as the others attacked the camp for a different story besided reason. Seeing the one who put her in the cage and had been hurting her and had the same smell as the one who killed her master decided to take them out before trying to leave. But they haven't let her sleep since the captured her so after battle she passed out. That the best I could help her with on short notice and still keep it reasonable. I wolf hunting down people that have come in their land and killed things isn't a far stretch. I did make some changes to make it fit better. I wasn't talking about a active search of the people, just that she would remember them if she came across them in the future when she gained the int. kind of like a flash back. The armor I just assumed the animals would have to be trained in it if they wanted them to use just like humanoids. So I told her that if she wanted to not take minuses on attack that she would need training in the armor. she choose to give up the track since she was train as a attack animal mostly and didn't get any ranks in the skill used for track. Changed this. I see two feat and think 3rd level. She took the 1st level feat as armor and 3rd went weapon focus bite. sorry about that.the Int for spells thing. Didn't know for sure but it made sense so we used it till I find out different. That what I do with most rules. Except I still use the old three classes rule from old school, They always go straight classes anyway so it is not a big thing. thanks for letting me know. And last is what is up with the " you have to use magic to do it". My group was gaining 4 level tonight anyway but she decided to go ahead and start it and gain up till 4th. She doesn't want the all of a sudden int score plus thats +2 more HD which would put her at gaining 6th instead of just 1level and moving her int up. Plus it is good roleplaying for her to try to get the players to understand what she needs with out saying anything. If she doesn't have fun we will work together to make it what she wants or find something she can have fun with. We play monster classes all the time so she should be able to handle odd races. Note everything gets bigger as they age, up to a certain point. The MM lets you know what that point is under advancement entry. The max size for a wolf is large. I don't see how a wolf comes out know everything it needs to survive in the wild without the parents teaching it some thing. All PC's gain XP no matter what they play. Do dragons only get bigger during the 12 age cats because they have int of 3 or higher. Monsters gain feats and abiliy scores the same as every thing else. they are considered added in for the level in the entry and any futher leveling up by the DM is required to add them on. LAs are for keeping them up to the right power level.
FrostWolf 10-18-07, 08:01 AM	This level of conviction for persuing vengence is something that animals lack the conigtive capacity to neither understand or persue. Bullcrap. At least, out of D&D. This game underestimates the int of animals and the loyalty that they can show to their masters.
pres_man 10-18-07, 08:11 AM	Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. It is a misconception (due to the name of that line in the entry) that indivudual creatures "advance", instead you can have a breed of wolf that is medium with 2 HD, and a different breed (or a mutant) that is large with 4 HD. Without some special situation your normal wolf does not get bigger (or gain more HD). I understand perhaps not wanting to use the spell "Awaken", but you can't really argue that it seems weird to suddenly gain HD and mental abilities and then turn around and say, "But I think it is reasonable for a wolf to gain 4 HD[see above] and it suddenly become a magical beast [see rules for animals]." You want to break the 2 INT for animals, then you have to make them a magical beast. That has to happen somehow, and it would seem some type of magic, even if it is not the spell "Awaken", would be the best description for that. Maybe it some wild energy effect or something. EDIT: Aware Animal: an animal that due to some kind of magical means has become self-aware. This is not as strong of a change as an effect as being Awoken (as per the spell). An aware animal is sapient enough to take class levels and raise its intelligence as it advances, usually aware animals can understand the basics of a single language (common and sylvan being the most likely), but have extremely limited ability to use it (usually they must indicate their intentions in indirect fashions). Some more powerful aware animals or those with the normal ability to mimic sounds (such as ravens or parrots) may be able to communicate verbally to an extent. Though technically an aware animal is a magical beast, they still breed true with their natural species (an aware wolf would have normal wolf offspring). Aware Animal Template: Size and Type: Animals type changes to magical beast. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves. Hit Dice: Increase base animal’s racial HD to d10. Speed: No change in speed. Armor Class: No change in Natural Armor. Attack: No change in natural attacks. Special Attacks: An aware animal retains all the special attacks of the base animal. Special Qualities: An aware animal retains all the special qualities of the base animal. An aware animal does not gain darkvision. An aware animal gains the wild empathy ability with respect to members of the species of the base animal. *Wild Empathy (Ex): An aware animal can improve the attitude of an animal that is the same species as its base animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The aware animal rolls 1d20 and adds the number of its HD and its Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. Otherwise this functions like the Druid's wild empathy ability. Abilities: No change except Int is a minimum 3. Skills: Do not recalculate skills. Environment: Same as base animal. Alignment: Any (Often Any Neutral). Level Adjustment: +1
wrecan 10-18-07, 12:04 PM	I hope that takes care of that. No, since you totally ignored what I posted. As pres_man said, animals don't advance actively. They are Advanced specimens of their breed. Think about what you're suggesting. You're suggesting that wolves who hunt enough game will eventually grow into Large-Sized magical animals with human intelligence. Does that make any sense? Has that ever happened in the history of the world? she choose to give up the track since she was train as a attack animal mostly You can't give up the Track. See that little "B" next to "Track"? That means it's a "Bonus" Feat. It means it's instinctive. She cannot drop it. (Well, she can, but that's a house rule.) Except I still use the old three classes rule from old school I've been playing since 1978. What's the "three classes rule"? And last is what is up with the " you have to use magic to do it". The wolf is going to "advance" to Large Size -- that's the size of a horse. How are you going to explain that without magic? Note everything gets bigger as they age, up to a certain point. Show me any wolf in the real world that's as large as a horse. Do dragons only get bigger during the 12 age cats because they have int of 3 or higher. They get bigger because they are unique in that they can be played while physically immature. Baby humans are Tiny-sized. They physically mature into a Medium-sized creature. They will also have a 3 Int (enough to speak) before they are 2 years old. That doesn't mean you can play a toddler PC.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 01:46 PM	They used to be limited to three classes just like they used to be a level limit for different races and human could only be duel class and couldn't level in one after he started the other. So every other creature in the MM gets bigger as they age except animals. No that doesn't make sense. Where are you getting this from. I was asking for RAW not guess work. And the RAW say they can put that point anywhere. Now for a DM using them as a monster your way works good. But if a PC wants to gain level they can gain levels. Still have said why dragon's and the like get bigger as the age and gain levels? I have already post that RAW says they get feats and ability scores as normal for their HD. So you post where it says in RAWs that they can't gain HD through XP and I'll give you that one. It has to say that specifically. Now the rules say the nonhumaniods don't make good PC and anything under 2 int, and non int creature can't gain int. Anything that increases their HD would increase their size if the advancement says it does. doesn't matter if it was the +2 HD from awaken or them gaining XP to level up. I not talking about a monster I'm talking about a PC character and they can gain XP. Show me in real life where there are dragons that fly the skies or a person can stop time or a priest can bring back someone from the dead. None of those can happen but do in D&D. How about most wolves don't gain enough XP to gain that level. Doesn't mean it can't happen. Using real world stuff for D&D is not a good idea. If I wanted that I'd play WOD.
pres_man 10-18-07, 02:16 PM	And the RAW say they can put that point anywhere. Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture. Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —d8 Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). —Low-light vision. —Alignment: Always neutral. —Treasure: None. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment. —Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. —Animals eat, sleep, and breathe. Well I think that takes care of that.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 02:37 PM	It only says that they can't still be an animal with int of higher then two. It would have to say that " animals are limited to 1 or 2 int" which it doesn'. When a druid reaches the equivalent of 3rd level, does his wolf animal companion grow to Large size (with all of the benefits and penalties associated with size increase)? Does the wolf continue to gain bonus Hit Dice, even though a wolf’s advancement normally maxes out at 6 Hit Dice? Finally, does a wolf automatically become Large if your druid of 3rd or higher level acquires it as an animal companion, granting it bonus Hit Dice? The animal companion rules—or, for that matter, pretty much any other effect that grants a creature bonus Hit Dice— don’t use the monster improvement rules presented in Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual. The rules in Monster Manual are for creating tougher versions of existing monsters, not for increasing the statistics of creatures who gain Hit Dice. An animal’s normal advancement line has absolutely nothing to do with the benefits it gains from being an animal companion, and vice versa. A wolf animal companion doesn’t become size Large when its Hit Dice increases to 4, nor is it limited to the “normal” Hit Dice cap for wolves. So using the spell to increase HD wouldn't gain large size. But doesn't talk about leveling up with XP because it is talking about animals comps. But clearly it is talking about things that give bonus HD and that would count for reg animals too. leading me to think that level up gains size by advancement. Talking about a PC character here not making tougher monsters. We use monster classes all the time.
wrecan 10-18-07, 02:38 PM	So every other creature in the MM gets bigger as they age except animals. No that doesn't make sense. Of course it doesn't make sense. It isn't true. Nobody gets bigger as they age except dragons. Everybody else stops growing when they hit maturity, and the stats in the MM represent a mature specimen. All the creatures in the MM that can be Advanced by HD are born with that Advancement. I was asking for RAW not guess work. Pres_man and I cited the rule twice! Here it is again: Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows. And the RAW say they can put that point anywhere. Any creature with an Intelligence of 3 or better cannot be an Animal: no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal Still have said why dragon's and the like get bigger as the age and gain levels? What's "and the like"? Dragons are the only creatures who gain HD as they age. The only ones. They are the exception. So you post where it says in RAWs that they can't gain HD through XP and I'll give you that one. Don't ask someone to prove a negative. I already showed you the definition of "Advancement." It means creatures who are naturally bigger than their fellows. It doesn't say anything of Advancing with age or XP. Anything that increases their HD would increase their size if the advancement says it does. And Advancement doesn't say it does. I not talking about a monster I'm talking about a PC character and they can gain XP. And the rules (already cited) say Animals can't be PCs. Using real world stuff for D&D is not a good idea. If I wanted that I'd play WOD. Wha? Vampires exist in the real world? Wolves in D&D are supposed to approximate wolves in the real world. The reason why humans aren't given stats in the MM is because we know what humans are -- we're humans. Look, you asked for RAW and we gave you RAW. I've given you a ton of suggestions of how your friend can play a wolf within the rules set forth by RAW. You've ignored all the rules I cited and have responded with disingenuous arguments. I was trying to help you, not get into a fight. Play by the rules or don't. You seem dead set on doing what you want to do. You haven't accepted a single suggestion anybody has offered in the thread, and they've all been offered in the spirit of gamer camaraderie. So why'd you bother asking?
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 03:16 PM	1. It has been said here by a few people that when an animals int score goes up above 2 it's type changes to magical beast not animal any long. It still keeps all animal HD stats it got before the int score increased inculding BAB and the like. It's HD goes up to d10 and any more hd gained are gained as Magical beast. Not saying a animal can have an int of 3. I'm saying the type changes by increasing int score. 2. that quote in talking about increasing a monster used by the DM against the party of PC and not about Playable monster. We are talking about gain HD in a Monster class. Not making a monster more tough for the PCs. All the monster classes that have larger size. What I'm saying is that she could be the larger type of wolf and doesn't gain that size until 4th HD gained by XP. At which time she can put her ability point on int changing her type, without magic, to magical beast. It really doesn't matter. The superior specimens would still even in real life have to go through all the other stages before reaching large size. You say that babies start small and gain med size by aging but that every other monster besides dragon come out of their moms full grown. If you are not saying that then you have to admit that they gain size by aging up to the max size per creature. Which is listed under advanacment and that what is listed under the monster entry is for most commonly encounter monster sizes and seeing one above or below that size are rare. Using them as player characters they would gain the higher size if they decided to gain the HD to do so. In this case she has to gain 4th HD to become magical beast and be a reg PC not just a animal following the rules for animals. Note: your telling me the rule for leveling monsters, which I already know. I'm asking for what the rules would be for a monster class for a PC, not monsters that I will be using on them. It is two different things.
Fireclave 10-18-07, 03:57 PM	Bullcrap. At least, out of D&D. This game underestimates the int of animals and the loyalty that they can show to their masters. I agree that the game underestimates animal intelligence, but I can live with that. But to the point of purposeful, willing, premeditated vengeance (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?&search=vengeance&sourceid=mozilla-search)? I have to disagree. But if you have a real-life example of animals actively seeking out people in pursuit of vengeance, and not simply attacking due to being provoked or being commanded, I'd love to hear it.
Jexil 10-18-07, 04:30 PM	You say that babies start small and gain med size by aging but that every other monster besides dragon come out of their moms full grown. No one is saying that. What they are saying is that the monsters listed in the MM are based on fully mature specimens. The 2HD wolf of medium size in the MM isn't a cub that's still growing, it's an adult wolf. If it was still a cub, it would probably be of small size and have 1 HD or possible 1/2 HD. Now, if a fully grown wolf gains additional HD from experience (in the same way that a character levels up from experience), it doesn't really stand to reason that it would grow in size. After all, a fighter doesn't get bigger as he takes levels in fighter. However, the MM does allow for "advanced" wolves that are 4 HD+ and are of large size. And Savage Species introduced the idea of racial progression, in which monsters can be played begining at 1 HD and advance in HD as they level up (until they reach the full normal HD for that creature, after which they are eligible for class levels). Many of the large sized creatures included in that book start off at medium size at 1 HD and become large size only after they level up. So if you wanted to let the player play an Advanced 4HD Large Wolf, start at 1 or 2 HD and then use some kind of racial progression leveling for a couple of levels, I don't see why not. The only problem is that there is no racial progression table for advanced wolves in Savage Species or elsewhere that I know of, so you'll be on your own deciding exactly how that works (what, if any, is the level adjustment, for example) Note: your telling me the rule for leveling monsters, which I already know. I'm asking for what the rules would be for a monster class for a PC, not monsters that I will be using on them. It is two different things. The reason people are giving you the rules for advancing monsters instead of what you want is that there are no rules for using animals as a PC class in the RAW. If your player wants to do it and you are okay with it, I say go for it. But you may have to write some of your own rules for this, as it is not explicitly covered in the RAW.
Death-Knight 10-18-07, 04:46 PM	Err.... Badger barbarian??? i know you get Battle hedghogs, but htey aint real hedgehogs!!!
wrecan 10-18-07, 04:52 PM	1. It has been said here by a few people that when an animals int score goes up above 2 it's type changes to magical beast not animal any long. It still keeps all animal HD stats it got before the int score increased inculding BAB and the like. No, it doesn't. When your type changes, all of your stats change to the new type. the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type Traits are mechanics: HD, vision, skill points, BAB, saves, etc. Features are the physical appearance. So it looks like a wolf, but it has the traits of a Magical Beast. So all of the wolf HD change from d8 (animal) to d10 (magical beast). It's BAB changes from cleric (+2/3 levels) to fighter (+1/1 level). (Technically, it should also get the "augmented" subtype, but I don't know if that even has mechanical ramifications.) that quote in talking about increasing a monster used by the DM against the party of PC and not about Playable monster. We are talking about gain HD in a Monster class. There is no way to gain HD in a monster class. There are no rules for it. The only rules that exist are for monsters who gain class levels because there is no was to gain HD, except through spells (such as [/i]Awaken[/i]) or templates. What I'm saying is that she could be the larger type of wolf and doesn't gain that size until 4th HD gained by XP. Which is fine as a house rule, but I'd suggest that you come up with an explanation of how the wolf "learns" to double in size. The superior specimens would still even in real life have to go through all the other stages before reaching large size. Okay. But people don't age by gaining XP. They age by ... well... aging. A toddler doesn't get to grow taller by killing orcs. If you're saying that the wolf is really a 2 HD wolf cub that will grow up to be a Large-sized 4 HD wolf, that's fine. But then she shouldn't be gaining XP until she "grows up" and gains the Int 3 that allows her to take on character classes. You say that babies start small and gain med size by aging but that every other monster besides dragon come out of their moms full grown. What?! Where did you get that idea? Are you claiming elves come out of their mothers' wombs five feet tall?! you have to admit that they gain size by aging up to the max size per creature. That would mean that when PCs meet the default version of a monster that has HD listed in Advancement, they are fighting children! Monsters that advance by character class but have racial Hit Dice, like the ogre, aren't born fully formed, are they? They too must be born smaller than their usual size, and then grow, with time, into a mature version of the monster, even though the "Advancement" chart doesn't have any HD listed there. your telling me the rule for leveling monsters, which I already know. I'm asking for what the rules would be for a monster class for a PC This is what the rules say about using monsters as playable races: While every monster has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs. Creatures who have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower, who have no way to communicate, or who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. It also says: Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Every monster with a level adjustment "advances" by character class only. Ergo, there is no way by the rules to play a monster that "Advances" by HD. You're trying to ram a round peg into a square hole and asking us for rules that don't exist because the rules don't contemplate people playing wolves. Now, we're trying to help you come up with a way around these rules, but you're fighting us something fierce.
pres_man 10-18-07, 04:56 PM	At which time she can put her ability point on int changing her type, without magic, to magical beast. Note: your telling me the rule for leveling monsters, which I already know. I'm asking for what the rules would be for a monster class for a PC, not monsters that I will be using on them. It is two different things. As there is no rule at all that even remotely suggests that it is allowable to change type merely by putting a point in an ability score, we can't tell you how an animal is suppose to be a PC. That is because it is not. Heck, you want to do it the hard way, ok. Let's look at the wolf's entry again: WOLF Advancement: 3 HD (Medium); 4–6 HD (Large) Ok, so let's assume (wrongly of course) that the advancement line indicates that if for some reason a player was playing a wolf as a character, that is how the player would advance. Alright, but let's compare it to say, a bugbear. BUGBEAR Advancement: By character class Well now see. The bugbear, despite having racial HD, when it advances it does so by class, but the wolf is limited to only being able to advance by racial HD, and it will max out at 6 HD. Of course if you somehow were allowed to raise the intelligence, then it wouldn't be a wolf anymore now would it, being a magical beast instead of an animal. So how does it advance then? Who knows, there is no rules for spontaneously changing types in such a fashion, so we just can't say, maybe it would be limited by the 6 HD cap for a wolf, maybe it could take class levels, it is just not clear, because the rules don't cover what happens when we misapply the rules.
pres_man 10-18-07, 05:04 PM	Okay. But people don't age by gaining XP. They age by ... well... aging. A toddler doesn't get to grow taller by killing orcs. Awesome. http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/pres_man/stewie.jpg
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 05:09 PM	I agree that the game underestimates animal intelligence, but I can live with that. But to the point of purposeful, willing, premeditated vengeance (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?&search=vengeance&sourceid=mozilla-search)? I have to disagree. But if you have a real-life example of animals actively seeking out people in pursuit of vengeance, and not simply attacking due to being provoked or being commanded, I'd love to hear it. what about those "when animals attack" shows?
wrecan 10-18-07, 05:16 PM	what about those "when animals attack" shows? What about them? None of them involve acts of vengeance. Those are animals that believe (rightly or wrongly) they are defending themselves, their territory, their cubs or are hunting prey. I also know of know animal that ever attacked someone out of vengeance, particularly years after the event.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 05:20 PM	No one is saying that. What they are saying is that the monsters listed in the MM are based on fully mature specimens. The 2HD wolf of medium size in the MM isn't a cub that's still growing, it's an adult wolf. If it was still a cub, it would probably be of small size and have 1 HD or possible 1/2 HD. Now, if a fully grown wolf gains additional HD from experience (in the same way that a character levels up from experience), it doesn't really stand to reason that it would grow in size. After all, a fighter doesn't get bigger as he takes levels in fighter. However, the MM does allow for "advanced" wolves that are 4 HD+ and are of large size. And Savage Species introduced the idea of racial progression, in which monsters can be played begining at 1 HD and advance in HD as they level up (until they reach the full normal HD for that creature, after which they are eligible for class levels). Many of the large sized creatures included in that book start off at medium size at 1 HD and become large size only after they level up. So if you wanted to let the player play an Advanced 4HD Large Wolf, start at 1 or 2 HD and then use some kind of racial progression leveling for a couple of levels, I don't see why not. The only problem is that there is no racial progression table for advanced wolves in Savage Species or elsewhere that I know of, so you'll be on your own deciding exactly how that works (what, if any, is the level adjustment, for example) The reason people are giving you the rules for advancing monsters instead of what you want is that there are no rules for using animals as a PC class in the RAW. If your player wants to do it and you are okay with it, I say go for it. But you may have to write some of your own rules for this, as it is not explicitly covered in the RAW. It's easy for non LA monster. As I already said we play monster classes all the time. All the races books have monster class to and all increase in size to their max size. Not just in SS. I make my own tables for the ones they want to play but don't have tables for. Even dragons.
wrecan 10-18-07, 05:31 PM	IIRC, the progression charts in Savage Species and the Races of series are all creaturs that Advance by Character Level. All the progressions give you is a way to have these monsters join a party of lower APL than the creature's HD+LA.
FrostWolf 10-18-07, 05:43 PM	I agree that the game underestimates animal intelligence, but I can live with that. But to the point of purposeful, willing, premeditated vengeance (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?&search=vengeance&sourceid=mozilla-search)? I have to disagree. But if you have a real-life example of animals actively seeking out people in pursuit of vengeance, and not simply attacking due to being provoked or being commanded, I'd love to hear it. Grizzly bears (And honestly, I think ALL bears should have an alignment of CE) Have been known to track and lure hunters that have taken shots at them for weeks into ambush. Boars will "play Dead" long enough for a hunter to bend over so they can savage their faces. Heck, beat a dog for a few months, then go away for a few years. When you return to that dog, I'll bet it tries to savage you. That, is vengance. No, I think vermine and fish should be 1-2, and animals from 3-4. But on topic, Use the old 3.0 critter classification. Call her a beast. She ain't quite an animal, and she ain't a Magical beast. Dinosaurs, Ankhegs, and a few other critters used to fall into this area. Or just tell her She is a polymorphed human fighter or what ever class she wants.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 05:51 PM	As there is no rule at all that even remotely suggests that it is allowable to change type merely by putting a point in an ability score, we can't tell you how an animal is suppose to be a PC. That is because it is not. Heck, you want to do it the hard way, ok. Let's look at the wolf's entry again: Ok, so let's assume (wrongly of course) that the advancement line indicates that if for some reason a player was playing a wolf as a character, that is how the player would advance. Alright, but let's compare it to say, a bugbear. Well now see. The bugbear, despite having racial HD, when it advances it does so by class, but the wolf is limited to only being able to advance by racial HD, and it will max out at 6 HD. Of course if you somehow were allowed to raise the intelligence, then it wouldn't be a wolf anymore now would it, being a magical beast instead of an animal. So how does it advance then? Who knows, there is no rules for spontaneously changing types in such a fashion, so we just can't say, maybe it would be limited by the 6 HD cap for a wolf, maybe it could take class levels, it is just not clear, because the rules don't cover what happens when we misapply the rules. First one is easy. Page 23 under lack of Intelligence in SS. 2. The max size would be the one listed for the monster in the entry if one is not in the advancement It still would have to gain it HD first in order to gain classes. You can't gain HD over the entry unless there is an advancement entry saying they can gain more. If there is one then the monster class can gain classes or HD of his choice as long as the DM approves. Most still make them gain aleast the entry HD first. 3. Advancement would be the same as wolf. It would still be a wolf since wolf is not a type just a name. The type animal would be the only change. It would still be called wolf just like the Familars of wizards are still called what they are. 4. Never said class gave size up for level. But that HD represents the creatures age. I didn't make up the rules. And have no idea why it is this way. Even if you say there are different types of creatures of the same type, that one would still have to gain the other HD first to become the advanced type. Let hope it is fixed soon?
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 05:58 PM	No, it doesn't. When your type changes, all of your stats change to the new type. the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type Traits are mechanics: HD, vision, skill points, BAB, saves, etc. Features are the physical appearance. So it looks like a wolf, but it has the traits of a Magical Beast. So all of the wolf HD change from d8 (animal) to d10 (magical beast). It's BAB changes from cleric (+2/3 levels) to fighter (+1/1 level). (Technically, it should also get the "augmented" subtype, but I don't know if that even has mechanical ramifications.) There is no way to gain HD in a monster class. There are no rules for it. The only rules that exist are for monsters who gain class levels because there is no was to gain HD, except through spells (such as [/i]Awaken[/i]) or templates. Which is fine as a house rule, but I'd suggest that you come up with an explanation of how the wolf "learns" to double in size. Okay. But people don't age by gaining XP. They age by ... well... aging. A toddler doesn't get to grow taller by killing orcs. If you're saying that the wolf is really a 2 HD wolf cub that will grow up to be a Large-sized 4 HD wolf, that's fine. But then she shouldn't be gaining XP until she "grows up" and gains the Int 3 that allows her to take on character classes. What?! Where did you get that idea? Are you claiming elves come out of their mothers' wombs five feet tall?! That would mean that when PCs meet the default version of a monster that has HD listed in Advancement, they are fighting children! Monsters that advance by character class but have racial Hit Dice, like the ogre, aren't born fully formed, are they? They too must be born smaller than their usual size, and then grow, with time, into a mature version of the monster, even though the "Advancement" chart doesn't have any HD listed there. This is what the rules say about using monsters as playable races: While every monster has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs. Creatures who have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower, who have no way to communicate, or who are so different from other PCs that they disrupt the campaign should not be used. It also says: Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Every monster with a level adjustment "advances" by character class only. Ergo, there is no way by the rules to play a monster that "Advances" by HD. You're trying to ram a round peg into a square hole and asking us for rules that don't exist because the rules don't contemplate people playing wolves. Now, we're trying to help you come up with a way around these rules, but you're fighting us something fierce. Normaly yes but animals are a special case. Page 23 SS.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 06:11 PM	What about them? None of them involve acts of vengeance. Those are animals that believe (rightly or wrongly) they are defending themselves, their territory, their cubs or are hunting prey. I also know of know animal that ever attacked someone out of vengeance, particularly years after the event. I'm talking about the trained animals on those show. What about the ape that know sign language? I'm talking about something that has been trained from a cub to be a trained killer on command. That is a little different from some random wild animal. What about that loin that attacked the person in the zoo through the cage. They were not defending themselves, their territory, their cubs or are hunting prey. Some of those animals just attack to hurt those people.
wrecan 10-18-07, 06:21 PM	Normaly yes but animals are a special case. Page 23 SS. What are you talking about? Savage Species doesn't have any rules for playing characters with the Animal type. Do you mean this quote? When the Intelligence of an animal permanently rises above 3, the creature becomes a magical beast. When this occurs, it is no longe vulnerable to spells and effects that affect its previous type, though its Hit Die size, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and other attributes do not change. If you had already read this, why did you think Animals who gain Int 3 don't change type and retain their old HD, BAB, etc.?? What on page 23 of SS makes you think animals can gain XP and animal HD? I note of course, that SS is speaking of Awakened animals, which is the very solution we suggested ot you at the very beginning of the thread, and which you rejected outright.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 06:22 PM	IIRC, the progression charts in Savage Species and the Races of series are all creaturs that Advance by Character Level. All the progressions give you is a way to have these monsters join a party of lower APL than the creature's HD+LA. Salamander, Barghest, Kyton, Vrock, and Elementals just to name a few. I can go on if you like. all above have advancement of HD and can freely choose to gain class levels aftergain the hit die in the top part of the entry or gain more HD. Players choice.
wrecan 10-18-07, 06:26 PM	I'm talking about the trained animals on those show. What about the ape that know sign language? What about them? Have any of them plotted vengeance on those who abused its master? They were not defending themselves, their territory, their cubs or are hunting prey. Some of those animals just attack to hurt those people. They thought they were. And even if they weren't, since when does sadism = ability to seek vengeance years after the fact?
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 06:30 PM	What are you talking about? Savage Species doesn't have any rules for playing characters with the Animal type. Do you mean this quote? When the Intelligence of an animal permanently rises above 3, the creature becomes a magical beast. When this occurs, it is no longe vulnerable to spells and effects that affect its previous type, though its Hit Die size, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and other attributes do not change. If you had already read this, why did you think Animals who gain Int 3 don't change type and retain their old HD, BAB, etc.?? What on page 23 of SS makes you think animals can gain XP and animal HD? I note of course, that SS is speaking of Awakened animals, which is the very solution we suggested ot you at the very beginning of the thread, and which you rejected outright. It doesn't matter if they gain XP before gaining 4 HD or not. She would stil get the ability score point no matter which way I do it. She gain the point fron being 4th HD animal. Since the entry starts a normal animal with 2 HD when I add 2 more I have to give the animals 1 more feat and 1 ability score points. which she can choose to put on int? and then start gain XP as a PC character? Doesn't matter. Never said they didn't change types. I said that the old HD stuff like BAB would not change when her type changed. Like normal. The full entry on that page says that the animal can circumvent not using the spell by using magicial items. Then the entry just says any permanent change in int does it. Nothing in the rules says they can't put that point on int. Just that animals only have a 1 or 2 and anything above that is magical beast.
wrecan 10-18-07, 06:31 PM	I stand corrected on Savage Species. I'm still pretty sure it doesn't have rules for playing unAwakened animals.
Jexil 10-18-07, 06:38 PM	No, it doesn't. When your type changes, all of your stats change to the new type. the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type Traits are mechanics: HD, vision, skill points, BAB, saves, etc. Features are the physical appearance. So it looks like a wolf, but it has the traits of a Magical Beast. So all of the wolf HD change from d8 (animal) to d10 (magical beast). It's BAB changes from cleric (+2/3 levels) to fighter (+1/1 level). (Technically, it should also get the "augmented" subtype, but I don't know if that even has mechanical ramifications.) That is not always the case. A good example is the fiendish and celestial templetes. When applied to an animal, the creatures type changes to magical beast. However, HD, BAB, and skill points are not explicitly NOT recalculated for the new type. There is no way to gain HD in a monster class. There are no rules for it. The only rules that exist are for monsters who gain class levels because there is no was to gain HD, except through spells (such as [/i]Awaken[/i]) or templates.As I said before, the racial progression levels detailed in Savage Species and other sources allow for the option of racial HD gain by level. I think the OP is really looking into doing something along those lines. Of course, the Wolf racial class he'd want to use would have to be based on an advanced version of the wolf, not the normal 2HD creature featured in the MM. But that HD represents the creatures age. I didn't make up the rules. And have no idea why it is this way. I'm not sure where you're getting that from, as I've never seen anything in the rules that says HD represents a creature's age. I can think of only a few examples (such as the dragon) where there is a direct link between age & HD. It's easy for non LA monster. As I already said we play monster classes all the timeBut remember, just because a monster's stat block does not list an LA does not mean it is balanced with a character of the same level. Generally the lack of a listed LA means it is not intended for use as a player character. Of course you don't have to be restricted by what the designers think makes an appropriate PC race, but for balance issues you may have to figure out your own LA. I don't know that a normal wolf needs one, but with one of large size may be a different story.
wrecan 10-18-07, 06:44 PM	Never said they didn't change types. Then why did you say "animals" are a special case? :banghead: Ugh. This is a mess. In the future, when you plan on using supplements that aren't core, such as Savage Species, it would be really helpful for you to mention that at the beginning of the post, because we've all been giving you tips from the Core rules, specifically the Monster Manual. It would have been so much simpler to say, "I was wondering if anybody ever took the Savage Species progressions and applied them to Animals, because I have a character who wants to play a wolf." Ace, I'm trying not to be frustrated, but it seems like you had your mind made up about what to do before you even posted here. Now, I feel like it was all an elaborate ruse to see if anybody would come up with the idea of using the progression charts from Savage Species and applying them to creatures with he Animal Type. At any rate, to answer your question: Since the entry starts a normal animal with 2 HD when I add 2 more I have to give the animals 1 more feat and 1 ability score points. which she can choose to put on int? and then start gain XP as a PC character? The short answer is how on earth could there possibly be a rule to govern a situation that isn't contemplated by the rules? The only Type that has Intelligence limits are Animals. And since Savage Species doesn't have rules for Monstrous Progression for Animals, and since the Monster Manual specifically states Animals are unsuitable for playing, where would there possibly be a rule discussing whether you can or cannot use the increased Ability point for Intelligence? At any rate, here's why I think you couldn't. The Advancement line describes Advanced creatures of that species. The Advanced wolf is of the Animal Type. Therefore, any Advancement must maintain that creature's Type. Since placing the additional Ability point in Intelligence would force the wolf to become a Magical Beast, it would no longer fit the criteria for Advancement. Ergo, the additional Ability Point cannot go into Intelligence. Once again, you can house rule this, and I imagine you will.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 06:45 PM	What about them? Have any of them plotted vengeance on those who abused its master? They thought they were. And even if they weren't, since when does sadism = ability to seek vengeance years after the fact? 1. Animals are not supposed to take pleasure in killing. Does it matter the reason for it. 2. If you read back I believe I posted first that she would seek vengeance but never said how long. The 2nd post about the story line is about her being captured after the killing and being abused by them until she escaped when the other PCs showed up.
pres_man 10-18-07, 06:57 PM	Well since you already are going to have to adjust the other abilities why not throw the rules for animals out the window any way. Medium -> Large worf gains: +8 Str -2 Dex +4 Con +2 NA -1 AC/Attack +4 Grapple -4 Hide +4 Trip Bite damage increases from 1d6 to 1d8 ...etc. No level adjustment, yeah good luck keeping that from unbalancing the game.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 07:03 PM	I believe I ask if an animal could gain a character class right away or is there a min int score before she could gain classes. Changing an animal to magical beast is not a NON core thing. Although there are spots in SS about animals, they are not a NON core thing ether. I used monster classes as an example of what I was talking about with how I handle advancement of monster in D&D when talking about players playing thing not allowed in most games. My question was a core rule one. I didn't start about whether you could raise int up with ability score increase from extra HDs being added. that was someone else.
wrecan 10-18-07, 07:04 PM	1. Animals are not supposed to take pleasure in killing. Does it matter the reason for it. Really? Because I'm pretty sure most predators get an endorphin rush when killing prey. Look, it clearly doesn't matter what I say. You haven't acknowledged anything anybody has written in this thread that contradicts you in the slightest. Have fun with your wolf PC.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 07:13 PM	Well since you already are going to have to adjust the other abilities why not throw the rules for animals out the window any way. Medium -> Large worf gains: +8 Str -2 Dex +4 Con +2 NA -1 AC/Attack +4 Grapple -4 Hide +4 Trip Bite damage increases from 1d6 to 1d8 ...etc. No level adjustment, yeah good luck keeping that from unbalancing the game. I started her last night. We turn 4th but she is still 3rd in we'll call it her monster class to save time. You can put that ability score point where ever you want. she will not gain large until 4th. It is no big thing really. she doesn't like to be large anyway. I just told her that she would have to if she gain 4 HD in the monster class type way because that's what the entry said. 4HD (large). She has to be 4th HD to became magical beast so I just assumed that the entry was right.
Ace_of_time 10-18-07, 07:17 PM	Really? Because I'm pretty sure most predators get an endorphin rush when killing prey. Look, it clearly doesn't matter what I say. You haven't acknowledged anything anybody has written in this thread that contradicts you in the slightest. Have fun with your wolf PC. The two are not the same. Killing something to eat is not the same as hurting something just to hurt it. If the animals that attack on the show did get to kill they don't eat the body most of the time. They just do it to hurt them not to eat.
Jexil 10-18-07, 07:50 PM	I didn't start about whether you could raise int up with ability score increase from extra HDs being added. that was someone else.Actually, it was in fact you who brought up the issue of raising intelligence with an ability score increase from extra HD. From your first post: Would my player have to gain 4 HD as a wolf first then gain fighter levels if he put the point from leveling on int?
JackSnape 10-18-07, 08:22 PM	But by that logic ace she doesn't even have to have wish cast use a magic item or gain levels/HD all she has to do is grow old, when a PC ages her mental stats, including INT go up. Thus any animal that is advanced in age is thus a magical beast with all the benefits that go with it, this means most animals will gain HP as they age, due to HD changing, even tho their CON goes down. I just doesn't make sense for an animal to change into a magical beast naturally, no more sense than a more experienced wolf changing size, due not to age, but XP. . . I understand that your PC doesn't want awaken, but for Pelor's sake man, use a magic item or a wish spell and stop trying to confound the rest of us. PS Lions are shown to kill not because they're hungry, but because they want to/are bored, but it's instinct, not vengance, vengance requires planning and repressed anger, which animals do not appear to posess.
FrostWolf 10-19-07, 01:16 AM	PS Lions are shown to kill not because they're hungry, but because they want to/are bored, but it's instinct, not vengance, vengance requires planning and repressed anger, which animals do not appear to posess. Most big cats will hunt and kill for sport. Humans are the only other critters to do so. Also, see my earlier post in eguards to animals and vengance.
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 01:38 AM	But by that logic ace she doesn't even have to have wish cast use a magic item or gain levels/HD all she has to do is grow old, when a PC ages her mental stats, including INT go up. Thus any animal that is advanced in age is thus a magical beast with all the benefits that go with it, this means most animals will gain HP as they age, due to HD changing, even tho their CON goes down. I just doesn't make sense for an animal to change into a magical beast naturally, no more sense than a more experienced wolf changing size, due not to age, but XP. . . I understand that your PC doesn't want awaken, but for Pelor's sake man, use a magic item or a wish spell and stop trying to confound the rest of us. PS Lions are shown to kill not because they're hungry, but because they want to/are bored, but it's instinct, not vengance, vengance requires planning and repressed anger, which animals do not appear to posess. Don't know what the life span of a wolf is but most wouldn't live long enough to get those bonuses and if they did that would be DM's call. You wouldn't get to play them. Magical beast type can be gotten a number of ways that don't evolve magic. Beside what I suggesting is more of it coming from more of the training the animal went through then anything else. All I know is a creature age unless otherwise noted in the MM entry. Hunting for sport just proves my point thanks. That another thing somepeople on here think aniamls are not smart enough to do.
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 01:51 AM	Actually, it was in fact you who brought up the issue of raising intelligence with an ability score increase from extra HD. From your first post: 1. I wasn't asking if she could do that. However the HD gets on the animal or any other creature you still have to add the extra feats and ability points and for that the creatures HD counts as it's character level for those. I was asking if she had to do that first before gaining a class. Someone else said they don't gain extra feats and ability score for leveling/ gain HD through reg ways, not including ways like awaken.
pres_man 10-19-07, 09:23 AM	I believe I ask if an animal could gain a character class right away or is there a min int score before she could gain classes. Changing an animal to magical beast is not a NON core thing. Although there are spots in SS about animals, they are not a NON core thing ether. I used monster classes as an example of what I was talking about with how I handle advancement of monster in D&D when talking about players playing thing not allowed in most games. My question was a core rule one. I didn't start about whether you could raise int up with ability score increase from extra HDs being added. that was someone else. So could you list some ways that normal animals could become a magical beast without the use of magic, besides this questionable putting a point in INT?
wrecan 10-19-07, 11:37 AM	Don't know what the life span of a wolf is but most wouldn't live long enough to get those bonuses The bonuses are based on the lifespan of the specific race. That's why an elf doesn't get the first Int boost until 263 years of age, but a human gets the boost at the age of 53. The "Old" age category, which is when a creature gets its first age-related boost to Int, occurs at about the half-way point through a creature's maximum lifespan. In theory, if a wolf were a playable race, it would get a +1 inherent bonus to Intelligence (and Wis and Cha) when it turned "old", which is about ten years of age (a wolf's lifespan maxes out at around 20). This would apply to every animal that reaches Old Age by the way. So, if your cat lives to the age of 12 it should be able to speak. And your three-year-old gerbil. Your box turtle would have to wait until he's about 60, though. Magical beast type can be gotten a number of ways that don't evolve magic. Such as... Hunting for sport just proves my point thanks. No, it doesn't. You're positing a wolf that harbors resentment for some time. Lions hunt for sport on a whim. That another thing somepeople on here think aniamls are not smart enough to do. Like whom?
wrecan 10-19-07, 11:40 AM	I believe I ask if an animal could gain a character class right away or is there a min int score before she could gain classes. Since the rules state quite clearly that an animal does not "Advance" by character class, the answer to your question is: animals never gain character classes by Core (or even by any supplement), unless the animal is magically transformed into a Magical Beast, such as through an Awakening. Since animals cannot have an Intelligence over 2 and remain an Animal, the second half of your question is nonsensical. Of course, we told you this in the beginning of the thread and you rejected it.
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 12:56 PM	So could you list some ways that normal animals could become a magical beast without the use of magic, besides this questionable putting a point in INT? Templates and rituals for one.
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 01:03 PM	Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. Thought this might help. I'll keep look for rules on both sides. I'll keep posting them on this one so check back please. Advancement The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. Most creatures will get larger if you add a lot of HD, so you should pick a break point at which the creature's size changes. It also goes on to say that some monster don't have obvious break point between sizes and you probably want to set the point between sizes at 1/2 the max HD. Intelligence: Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses Here is one for your side. Can an animal increase its Intelligence when it gains an ability score increase at every 4 Hit Dice? If its Int increases beyond 2, does it become a magical beast? The Sage recommends that the DM not allow an animal (or any nonintelligent creature) to increase its Intelligence via HD advancement except as a very special case. Even the biggest 18-HD viper in the jungle shouldn’t be able to have an Intelligence of 4. Regardless, an animal’s type doesn’t change simply due to an Intelligence increase. This will help me more. If it was against the rules to increase their Int they would have put it in their. It just says that animals in the wild shouldn't be able to have a 4 int. I'm only talking about train war animals or the like that get alot of training. And I don't have to worry about a type change. She really hates being large creatures but she have to live with that I guess. Rules of the game has a part in it's animal one that tells how a war trained animal should act. It's in aniamls part three. And as for the LA thing. When it doesn't have anything there and my players want to be one I look at it and if it hasn't got any abilities that would put it above the other players at the level it starts at, I don't worry about the LA. I think LA is worthless any way. Seems like they should atleast get half HD on LA levels and not get BAB and the rest. 1d4 is not over powering. If the abilities make it to powerful then I add LAs in and stetch out the abilities on those LA level/s to where they would be about the same as a PC. I also house roll no more then a +2 at a time. This helps keep the PC in line with what power level normal PCs would be.
JackSnape 10-19-07, 01:35 PM	Templates and rituals for one. Both of which are usually magical.
icuall 10-19-07, 01:41 PM	I want an Awakened Chihuahua with one level of Assasin, who's goal in life is find the mythical Taco Bell that he has in his dreams. "yo quero taco bell...."
pres_man 10-19-07, 01:45 PM	Templates Most templates that would do that are inherited, meaning the creature is born with them (such as half-fiend for example), thus the animal does not change to a magical beast, it is a magical beast whose stats are based on a similiar animal. and rituals for one. What are these rituals that don't involve magic? I think you still need to be a little bit more detailed how exactly a living animal can become a magical beast by the Core rules (or other rules, but you have been claiming that it is possible by the core rules) without magic, excluding the placing of a point by raising HD into INT.
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 02:52 PM	I post it above sorry we were posting at the same time. The fact says that if a DM allows them to increase int their type doesn't change. Could always call them augmented animals putting aug as a subtype and add in a house saying that only trained animals can increase int above 2. That wild animals have no way of learning above what they know with alot of training. Lets hope they don't figure out war horses. Would it be weird to have a four person party and have two PC's riding two other PCs?
Jexil 10-19-07, 07:05 PM	Would it be weird to have a four person party and have two PC's riding two other PCs? Actually, having a PC ride another PC as a mount seems to be sort of common in parties where one member is a druid, so it wouldn't be that weird.
Lincoln Hills 10-19-07, 08:03 PM	Apply one of the 'Planar' subtypes (such as Celestial or Fiendish) to a 2-HD wolf. The creature gains an Intelligence of 3 (and, of course, the Magical Beast type and Extraplanar subtype), as well as a few relatively minor immunities/abilities. That's 2 HD with, I reckon, about a +2 level adjustment. And you didn't have to use awaken. Further, such a creature would have enough intelligence and personality to pursue the "I must avenge my former master" plot desired by the player. It's not a "regular wolf," but it's necessary in this situation either to accept a compromise of some sort or else alter the rules (with an eye toward precedent - if a Wolf Barbarian is permissible, you're opening the door for any other Int 1 or 2 creature to take class levels, and I don't want to meet any Rust Monster Monks, thankyewverramuch.)
Ace_of_time 10-19-07, 10:04 PM	I could see that one on the player's side under "dumb DM's in a high level game". " He wiped out they party with a rust monster. Said it had 10 level in monk and our armor was gone in two rounds. what should I do?":D :D Still it would be funny? Maybe I could get her to go for a Reincarnate spell that back fired when cast by a lower caster off a scroll. As she raises her int up she would remember more about her past and what happen. That could work and wouldn't really be be change her by spell into magical beast which she didn't want. Could say she was fighting something that drained int permanently before the spell was cast and boom she wake as a wolf with no idea of what she once was.
discipleofevil 10-20-07, 12:32 AM	idea, as a final act the wizard casts "foxes cunning" (+4 int) and made it permanant
Necroramo 10-20-07, 12:50 PM	Animals by definition cannot have an Intelligence greater than 2, and so cannot take class levels. However, you could play an animal as a magical beast (which can have any Intelligence) in various ways, such as having someone cast awaken on the animal or giving a template like celestial to it.
pres_man 10-20-07, 01:04 PM	I don't think being domesticated constitutes a "very special case" (even though I think depending on the FAQ to give a meaningful answer is pretty much a crap shoot).
Ace_of_time 10-20-07, 05:13 PM	I know. I just meant that they would have said if it was against the rules. They just said it was up to the DM. Is there a way to change her to magical beast with out add to her ability score? Maybe I could make it a feat or something like that. Kind like the DW feat for kobolds. What do you think? That could work and solve my problems and not increase ability score? Like she was born to a wolf and trained as a war animals but one of the past lines was a magical beast and past that on. Maybe she had a awaken father and he past it on to her or something like that. Could call it "touch of awaking" and have it change it's type to magical beats?