Animate Dead and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
slob2
09-10-07, 03:58 PM When a party is battling it out with a necromancer who has undead minions up to his HD limit via the animate dead spell, are those minions included in the necromancer's CR, or do the minions have their own separate CR?
Unholy_King
09-10-07, 04:55 PM Any minions you give him have their own CR which you would add to the encounter.

And minions he creates under his own power via Animate Dead are considered already factored into his CR as a level X cleric and do not increase the CR of the encounter.

That make any sense?
PhaedrusXY
09-10-07, 04:59 PM If he has used spellslots for the day on them, they don't count. They are essentially a spell effect he's paid for (with spell slots).

If he animated them days ago, and has his full allotment of spells for the day of the fight, they are extra monsters in the encounter, and have their own CR, give their own XP, etc.
slob2
09-10-07, 06:03 PM If he has used spellslots for the day on them, they don't count. They are essentially a spell effect he's paid for (with spell slots).

If he animated them days ago, and has his full allotment of spells for the day of the fight, they are extra monsters in the encounter, and have their own CR, give their own XP, etc.

Okay, but what if you were to take the cost of the material components needed to create the minions out of the necromancer's equipment cost? Would that justify not giving the minions their own CR?
BW0222
09-10-07, 06:15 PM Folks,

Count them in the EL calcuation. Honestly, it doesn't matter how the bad guy gets followers, if the PCs are expected to fight them... they should count in the EL.

If a 9th-level evil bard manages to convince six ogres that the PCs are coming to steal their children, then charms a pair of 5th-level fighters, then sells his sword and hires a dozen orc archers, then takes leadership and brings a druid and his tiger alone, uses his 'trap making' skill to create a defensible position, uses a potion of speak with animals to have a picket of rats to warn of incoming folks, etc., etc. and they all meet the PCs at the same time... it isn't an EL 9 encounter.
Cifer
09-10-07, 06:55 PM Okay, but what if you were to take the cost of the material components needed to create the minions out of the necromancer's equipment cost? Would that justify not giving the minions their own CR?
I doubt it - 25 gp per HD is usually almost nothing compared to the equipment values of a mid-level necromancer. This cost only harms a PC necromancer who has to continually pay it.

Phaedrus essentially got it: Everything that costs the enemy ressources (e.g. Summon Monster X which costs a spell slot) he could have used in the fight with the PCs is factored into the CR unless it massively changes the combat due to special circumstances (*), everything else should be accounted for separately.

(*) For example, if you fight on a ground soaked with incendiary oil, any enemy immune to fire and capable of using it will be harder than his CR indicates.
slob2
09-10-07, 07:13 PM [QUOTE=Cifer;13736817]

Phaedrus essentially got it: Everything that costs the enemy ressources (e.g. Summon Monster X which costs a spell slot) he could have used in the fight with the PCs is factored into the CR unless it massively changes the combat due to special circumstances (*), everything else should be accounted for separately.

QUOTE]

But what about the Dread Necromancer class from Heroes of Horror? One of its class features (Undead Mastery)is the ability to control more HD of undead than Animate Dead usually allows. Don't you think that giving the undead minions their own CR kind of nerfs this power for an NPC Dread Necromancer? Especially if the DM were to take the cost of creating the undead (now increased due to the fact that there are more HD to contend with) out of the NPCs equipment?
StevenO
09-10-07, 07:42 PM Giving undead "minions" their own CR doesn't nerf the power of abilities like the Dread Necromancers but is actually necessary to reflect the challenge. Should the net CR/EL be the same for a character who controls a hundred undead minions but at the moment is only served by one out of that hundred compared to when he has the full support of his army?

Taking the Animate Dead cost out of a NPC's equipment allotment may justify a slight reduction in XP awarded but doesn't give those characters a zero balance in terms of encounter level. If an NPC is a full strength when encountered it is worth full XP as are any minions/followers/thralls it may have. On the otherhand if your Necromancer has spent slots one animate dead and the like you can justify removing those creatures as individual sources of XP and have them tied to the necromancer although in this case I'd still allow the minions to award their XP but deduct that from their master.
Cifer
09-10-07, 08:40 PM @slob2
There are class features, feats and other abilities that just don't matter in a combat. An enemy bard taken along for buffing the other monsters will probably never be able to use his Bardic Knowledge in the single fight against the PCs. Does that cheapen or "nerf" the class when used as a NPC?
runestar
09-10-07, 08:49 PM Do characters receive experience for killing a summoned monster? What about undead created with animate dead or an outsider called with planar ally?

As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t grant XP to characters defeating it. This is because the monster is counted as part of the challenge provided by the summoning monster. A pit fiend’s Challenge Rating (and thus the XP reward granted for defeating him) already takes into account the fact that he can summon allies; without that ability, he’d be worth less XP.

However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally.

Let’s look at a few examples to see how this might work in play.

Example 1: Over the course of many days, a powerful necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells. When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act
of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the undead.

Example 2: The same necromancer is on the run, knowing the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead.

Example 3: An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s
able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4th level spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort.

When in doubt, err on the side of awarding XP. The DM shouldn’t be looking for opportunities to deny the PCs fairly earned XP—if they bested the challenge, they should reap the reward.

Here is what the FAQ has to say on the issue. Makes sense to me.:)
Cifer
09-10-07, 08:54 PM I'm impressed - a Sage answer one can agree with...
slob2
09-10-07, 08:54 PM Thanks for the info, Runestar. I searched for animate dead in the faq's, and for some reason, nothing showed up.(???) But that settles it as far as I'm concerned. The sage knows best.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
slob2 09-10-07, 03:58 PM	When a party is battling it out with a necromancer who has undead minions up to his HD limit via the animate dead spell, are those minions included in the necromancer's CR, or do the minions have their own separate CR?
Unholy_King 09-10-07, 04:55 PM	Any minions you give him have their own CR which you would add to the encounter. And minions he creates under his own power via Animate Dead are considered already factored into his CR as a level X cleric and do not increase the CR of the encounter. That make any sense?
PhaedrusXY 09-10-07, 04:59 PM	If he has used spellslots for the day on them, they don't count. They are essentially a spell effect he's paid for (with spell slots). If he animated them days ago, and has his full allotment of spells for the day of the fight, they are extra monsters in the encounter, and have their own CR, give their own XP, etc.
slob2 09-10-07, 06:03 PM	If he has used spellslots for the day on them, they don't count. They are essentially a spell effect he's paid for (with spell slots). If he animated them days ago, and has his full allotment of spells for the day of the fight, they are extra monsters in the encounter, and have their own CR, give their own XP, etc. Okay, but what if you were to take the cost of the material components needed to create the minions out of the necromancer's equipment cost? Would that justify not giving the minions their own CR?
BW0222 09-10-07, 06:15 PM	Folks, Count them in the EL calcuation. Honestly, it doesn't matter how the bad guy gets followers, if the PCs are expected to fight them... they should count in the EL. If a 9th-level evil bard manages to convince six ogres that the PCs are coming to steal their children, then charms a pair of 5th-level fighters, then sells his sword and hires a dozen orc archers, then takes leadership and brings a druid and his tiger alone, uses his 'trap making' skill to create a defensible position, uses a potion of speak with animals to have a picket of rats to warn of incoming folks, etc., etc. and they all meet the PCs at the same time... it isn't an EL 9 encounter.
Cifer 09-10-07, 06:55 PM	Okay, but what if you were to take the cost of the material components needed to create the minions out of the necromancer's equipment cost? Would that justify not giving the minions their own CR? I doubt it - 25 gp per HD is usually almost nothing compared to the equipment values of a mid-level necromancer. This cost only harms a PC necromancer who has to continually pay it. Phaedrus essentially got it: Everything that costs the enemy ressources (e.g. Summon Monster X which costs a spell slot) he could have used in the fight with the PCs is factored into the CR unless it massively changes the combat due to special circumstances (), everything else should be accounted for separately. () For example, if you fight on a ground soaked with incendiary oil, any enemy immune to fire and capable of using it will be harder than his CR indicates.
slob2 09-10-07, 07:13 PM	[QUOTE=Cifer;13736817] Phaedrus essentially got it: Everything that costs the enemy ressources (e.g. Summon Monster X which costs a spell slot) he could have used in the fight with the PCs is factored into the CR unless it massively changes the combat due to special circumstances (*), everything else should be accounted for separately. QUOTE] But what about the Dread Necromancer class from Heroes of Horror? One of its class features (Undead Mastery)is the ability to control more HD of undead than Animate Dead usually allows. Don't you think that giving the undead minions their own CR kind of nerfs this power for an NPC Dread Necromancer? Especially if the DM were to take the cost of creating the undead (now increased due to the fact that there are more HD to contend with) out of the NPCs equipment?
StevenO 09-10-07, 07:42 PM	Giving undead "minions" their own CR doesn't nerf the power of abilities like the Dread Necromancers but is actually necessary to reflect the challenge. Should the net CR/EL be the same for a character who controls a hundred undead minions but at the moment is only served by one out of that hundred compared to when he has the full support of his army? Taking the Animate Dead cost out of a NPC's equipment allotment may justify a slight reduction in XP awarded but doesn't give those characters a zero balance in terms of encounter level. If an NPC is a full strength when encountered it is worth full XP as are any minions/followers/thralls it may have. On the otherhand if your Necromancer has spent slots one animate dead and the like you can justify removing those creatures as individual sources of XP and have them tied to the necromancer although in this case I'd still allow the minions to award their XP but deduct that from their master.
Cifer 09-10-07, 08:40 PM	@slob2 There are class features, feats and other abilities that just don't matter in a combat. An enemy bard taken along for buffing the other monsters will probably never be able to use his Bardic Knowledge in the single fight against the PCs. Does that cheapen or "nerf" the class when used as a NPC?
runestar 09-10-07, 08:49 PM	Do characters receive experience for killing a summoned monster? What about undead created with animate dead or an outsider called with planar ally? As a general rule, any creature whose presence on the battlefield is a direct result of another creature using one of its special abilities (such as summoning) during the battle doesn’t grant XP to characters defeating it. This is because the monster is counted as part of the challenge provided by the summoning monster. A pit fiend’s Challenge Rating (and thus the XP reward granted for defeating him) already takes into account the fact that he can summon allies; without that ability, he’d be worth less XP. However, there are plenty of situations where a DM should make exceptions to this general rule. Any time that a creature can bring an ally into play without reducing the resources it otherwise brings to the fight (or well outside of combat) you should strongly consider awarding XP for defeating that ally. Let’s look at a few examples to see how this might work in play. Example 1: Over the course of many days, a powerful necromancer stocks his lair with undead created via spells. When the PCs fight the necromancer and these undead minions, the necromancer has his full array of spells, so the act of creating these undead hasn’t reduced the challenge he provides. Thus, the Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the undead. Example 2: The same necromancer is on the run, knowing the PCs aren’t far behind. He spends some of his precious daily allotment of spells to animate a few zombies, only minutes before the PCs bust down his door and attack. That’s a lot more like summoning, since the creation of the undead represents a direct drain on the necromancer’s immediately available resources. Still, he doesn’t have to spend any rounds of combat casting the spells, so it’s not quite the same. The Sage recommends awarding one-half XP for defeating the undead. Example 3: An evil cleric uses lesser planar ally to call a succubus to serve him as a spy for 7 days, and sends her up against the PCs (without being present himself). The Sage recommends awarding full XP for defeating the succubus. If the PCs then track down and defeat the evil cleric before he’s able to prepare spells again, it’s tempting to reduce the XP award for the cleric by a little bit (since he’s down one 4th level spell), but it’s probably not worth the effort. When in doubt, err on the side of awarding XP. The DM shouldn’t be looking for opportunities to deny the PCs fairly earned XP—if they bested the challenge, they should reap the reward. Here is what the FAQ has to say on the issue. Makes sense to me.:)
Cifer 09-10-07, 08:54 PM	I'm impressed - a Sage answer one can agree with...
slob2 09-10-07, 08:54 PM	Thanks for the info, Runestar. I searched for animate dead in the faq's, and for some reason, nothing showed up.(???) But that settles it as far as I'm concerned. The sage knows best.