Animate Dead and Mid-High Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead and Mid-High Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WCH
07-12-06, 02:35 AM I'm doing a lvl 9 adventure where the BBEG is a very mysterious Orc Warlock. Nobody even knows he's a Warlock, just that he's unnaturally powerful and seems to have some kind of bizarre magic. Anyway, one of his invokations is The Dead Walk, and he owns a Darkskull, so I hope to make undead a fairly important part of this adventure (read: all of his minions will be undead).

Problem: The Dead Walk only makes Skeletons and Zombies, and I'm going to have lvl 9 PCs. How can I make PCs of that level fear minor undead, without going the cheesey path and making zombie dragons or something?

I think I'll go read the alternate rules in Libris Mortis... maybe I can supe them up somehow.
Vintar
07-12-06, 02:43 AM 1. Give the skeletons masterwork weapons.

2. Don't just have human skeletons - a bugbear skeleton has 3 hitdice - minataur 6 etc.

3. Have non-undead mixed in with the skeletons/zombies. Do this by hats of disguise - the party will have no idea that they aren't just more skeletons - except when the sword goes throguh their ribs.
Griff
07-12-06, 02:49 AM The revised Necromancer Handbook (on the CharOP boards) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129)

Thats got some handy hints for and army of the dead character.
WCH
07-12-06, 03:19 AM Even bugbear zombies and the like are woefully weak compared to lvl 9 PCs. A Bloodthirsty Fast Unkillable Bugbear Zombie is still only CR 4.5. It'll also be harder because the area will be bathed in magical darkness and under the effect of Unhallow... but even then I'd need about 8 such zombies in a single encounter to actually make the PCs fear for their lives.
zae
07-12-06, 03:50 AM Step 1: Take the basic undead
Step 2: Add four HD. The CR increases by 1, the BAB by +2, saves go up, +26 HP (more if created under the right circumstances). Make sure to choose decent feats for the HD increases.
Step 3: Repeat until they're tough enough.

The main thing is that they'll be decent at hitting, and have a lot of HP, with relatively few special abilities. These undead will simply be very, very tough, and will constantly be dealing a little bit of damage.
MarkB
07-12-06, 03:56 AM Only have him use his innate power to create his rank-and-file cannon fodder. For higher-level minions, he has a custom staff that casts create undead for one charge and create greater undead for 5 charges, which he's used to create all his senior minions. The staff has seen a lot of use, and is currently down to 12 charges.
Stormsender
07-12-06, 04:04 AM Could you add character classes to make them tougher and more skill I guess it's the same as adding hit dice but I think 2 8th level Skeleton Fighters, and 2 level 8 Zombie, ?Monks? hehe would be a challenge and funny at the same time. You could have the Zombie's have skill ranks in dance so they could do a tribute to Micheal Jackson's Thriller, Heee Heee heee.
Leilond
07-12-06, 04:51 AM Could you add character classes to make them tougher and more skill I guess it's the same as adding hit dice but I think 2 8th level Skeleton Fighters, and 2 level 8 Zombie, ?Monks? hehe would be a challenge and funny at the same time. You could have the Zombie's have skill ranks in dance so they could do a tribute to Micheal Jackson's Thriller, Heee Heee heee.
Well this is out of the rule, because skeletons and zombies cannot have class levels in 3.5, but you can do what you want
If you want to stay in the rule simply create some zombies from bigger monster like Ogre, Ettins, Giants (various), Dire Animals (various), Trolls and so on
kliate
07-12-06, 08:47 AM Use good tactics. Equip the undead minions with ranged weapons and have them disperse when pursued by the characters. Even mindless undead can follow commands, and "scatter" isn't too much of a stretch for them to grasp.

Next, make effective use of cover. An archer of CR 1/3 is an easy kill for a 9th level PC. A team of archers of CR 1/3 behind an arrow slit that provides improved cover (+8 AC, +4 reflex save, improved evasion) can be deadly. Given the fact that this is a Warlock with unlimited uses of invocations, give him a supply of corpses culled from earlier battles to animate as on-the-spot reinforcements.

The undead should focus their attacks on spellcasters - especially clerics. The Warlock should also focus his attention on clerics as they pose the greatest threat to his army. Note that unless their leader takes some effort to command them, however, they will tend to default to attacking the closest living creature that doesn't control them.

Finally, set up traps and advantages for the undead. Rather than having a bunch charge in and get destroyed by some great-cleaving fighter, try some of these:
-Cover the ground in oil. Equip a handful of skeletons with +1 flaming arrows (or just a bit of tar and a lantern to light the arrows agains), and shoot the oil.
-Use area-effect cold attacks that cover your skeletons along with any PCs in the area. Your skeletons won't care, but the PCs will.
-Use area-effect negative energy attacks (mass inflict, for example).
-As above, keep a supply of corpses for emergency reinforcements
-Collapse the ceiling. You'd be surprised how many situations this can help in.
-Use the undead as a screen and pelt the party from a distance. Staying behind a line of skeletons still provides cover, after all.
-Use illusions (such as Veil) to make the undead look normal. A paranoid party is a doomed party.
Finarin Panjoro
07-12-06, 09:20 AM Here are some suggestions:
-Add templates such as fiendish to them.
-Fortify the battlefield with a desecrate effect to give them bonuses and reduce turning effectiveness.

And my favorite one:
Use the mob rules from the DMG 2. A mob of skeletons and zombies is a CR 8 encounter and much harder to handle than 40 skeletons and zombies in standard combat. Mobs are similar to swarms (see the MM or SRD) in most respects. 2 undead mobs (meaning about 80 undead) is a serious challenge for a level 9 party (unless they can all fly) even with a cleric.

I give the mixed mob DR 2/- and DR 5 vs. peircing and cold resistance 10 (skeletons are immune to cold but zombies aren't).

The mob rules don't include specific rules for turning but I have the cleric roll turn damage and inflict 1 negative level on the mob for each point of turn damage if there are 1 HD skeletons in it. Or 1 negative level per two points of damage if the mob is all 2 HD zombies. etc.

If you don't have the DMG 2 this thread in Regdar's Repository will have almost all the information you need:
A Single Template Mass-Combat Mechanic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=637522)
Just convert the mob based military unit presented there into an undead unit and it should work just fine.
TarlSS
07-12-06, 09:28 AM What's wrong with Zombie dragons? I'd be afraid of zombie dragons. Nothing is wrong with Zombie Dragons.
Tormsskull
07-12-06, 10:25 AM While there are some items/spells in standard D&D 3.5 to empower undead, you're free to create your own. You could give the BBEG an artifact that makes his undead minions unkillable. You can reduce them to 1 HP, at which point they fall, but heal rapidly (say fast healing 5). Then once they are at max HP they rise once again. Sure, a party that walks in and slaughters 6 zombies won't even feel the breeze. When those 6 zombies get back up and continue fighting, the party will begin to wonder. When they continue to rise despite the party's best effort, they'll have to try to contain the zombies somehow rather than simply destroying them.
WCH
07-12-06, 07:59 PM Okay, so I'm thinking of going with Fast, Bloodthirsty, Unkillable Bugbear Zombies with 4 bonus hd.

Oh yeah, and they're going to be in a room bathed in magical darkness and under the effect of Unhallow, so the PCs won't even know what's eating them... they'll just get set upon by fast moving, vicious creatures which don't want to die.

Of course, they're still zombies... they still barely deal any damage... but they'll be hard to kill and should be conducive to a creepy atmosphere.
Sargon
07-13-06, 10:47 AM Create Undead/Greater allows you to create corspe creatures, A template found near the end of the BoVD .... is that a bad word? BoVD? I know its not the mature fourms... wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings.

CorpseCrafter from Libris Mortis Lots of good Necromancy feats and stuff in there... maybe even a graft for your warlock that turns PC's into zombies with a touch attack... something like that.

Also you mentioned it would take like 8 zombies to treaten your PC's, well... thats the thing with zombies... there are always so many zombies.. have you ever seen the zombie movie where the few people left alive huddle up in a house or on a roof while thousands of zombies wander the streets? Sure you can bash one or two in the head..but if 8 zombies are attacking each PC well... its not a good day to be outside.
WCH
07-13-06, 03:48 PM One thing that I'm looking at hitting upon here is the fear of the unexpected/unknown... PCs see zombies, figure piece of cake, get brutalized and are forced to escape.

Also, I really dislike having to keep track of massive numbers of enemies. I'd much rather have the PCs fight a half dozen of these things, and just barely win... only to find out that there are hundreds of them. Then when they defeat the BBEG despite the odds and put an end to his army creating evilness, they find his journal and discover that he was getting ready to defend against an invasion of Kythons.

Sort of a Lovecraftian "yeah, you're screwed anyway" thing with lots of moral ambiguity and the rules not behaving normally (like bugbear zombies being CR 5).
Ryan_Singer
07-13-06, 06:39 PM Two words for you: Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm).

Zombies can only make 1 standard or move action per round, which means no full-attacking. It's why Dragon Zombies aren't as scary as dragons.

Hydras, through, have this amazing ability to attack once with each head, even as part of a charge or as a standard action.

That's right, now your zombie can partial-charge for 6 attacks.
InterSilva
07-13-06, 07:23 PM Hydra Zombies and Ogre Zombies are devastating if their controller has a good grasp of tactics (i.e. int 15+). Libris Mortis has some great feats and items for making your undead beefy. One of my personal favorites is one where your undead blow up when they die for 1d8 damager per HD or something like that. The best part is that it's negative energy, so it heals all of their buddies! Also, there's a rod of undead controlling which doubles the number oh hit dice of undead he can control. At 10,000 gp, he'd be stupid not to have it. It's all about tactics. I almost killed my entire 9th-10th level party with a 7th-level vampire cleric necromancer and his four Ogre Skeletons. I've also done a number on PCs using Hydra Zombies. They have between five and twelve normal attacks, reach, and a good hunk of health? Sign me up! Throw a horde of skeletons with that necro feat that makes them burst for negative energy, a Hydra or two, and some Ogres at your PCs, and they'll have a tough time for sure. The cleric will turn (and kill) the skellies, pretty much healing the big guys completely, and the big guys will just wail away on your poor PCs.

Everyone makes fun of zombies and skeletons because they're most commonly used as low-level encounters. It's gratifying to make your PCs fear these "normal" undead. Don't take my word for it, try it!
neilthrun
07-14-06, 12:10 PM Use the terrain to your advantage, a mindless zombie won't worry about its well being, a PC will. Use lots of big traps. Huge Rolling boulders, pit traps, and small bridges, that are slowly falling apart. The idea is to make the undead the minor threat, and the traps and terrain the big threat. With any luck, the PCs will be so busy doging traps, they'll provoke AOO after AOO from your zombies and skeletons. The traditonal, room flooding with water becomes alot more deadly when its filled with 20 skeletons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WCH 07-12-06, 02:35 AM	I'm doing a lvl 9 adventure where the BBEG is a very mysterious Orc Warlock. Nobody even knows he's a Warlock, just that he's unnaturally powerful and seems to have some kind of bizarre magic. Anyway, one of his invokations is The Dead Walk, and he owns a Darkskull, so I hope to make undead a fairly important part of this adventure (read: all of his minions will be undead). Problem: The Dead Walk only makes Skeletons and Zombies, and I'm going to have lvl 9 PCs. How can I make PCs of that level fear minor undead, without going the cheesey path and making zombie dragons or something? I think I'll go read the alternate rules in Libris Mortis... maybe I can supe them up somehow.
Vintar 07-12-06, 02:43 AM	1. Give the skeletons masterwork weapons. 2. Don't just have human skeletons - a bugbear skeleton has 3 hitdice - minataur 6 etc. 3. Have non-undead mixed in with the skeletons/zombies. Do this by hats of disguise - the party will have no idea that they aren't just more skeletons - except when the sword goes throguh their ribs.
Griff 07-12-06, 02:49 AM	The revised Necromancer Handbook (on the CharOP boards) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129) Thats got some handy hints for and army of the dead character.
WCH 07-12-06, 03:19 AM	Even bugbear zombies and the like are woefully weak compared to lvl 9 PCs. A Bloodthirsty Fast Unkillable Bugbear Zombie is still only CR 4.5. It'll also be harder because the area will be bathed in magical darkness and under the effect of Unhallow... but even then I'd need about 8 such zombies in a single encounter to actually make the PCs fear for their lives.
zae 07-12-06, 03:50 AM	Step 1: Take the basic undead Step 2: Add four HD. The CR increases by 1, the BAB by +2, saves go up, +26 HP (more if created under the right circumstances). Make sure to choose decent feats for the HD increases. Step 3: Repeat until they're tough enough. The main thing is that they'll be decent at hitting, and have a lot of HP, with relatively few special abilities. These undead will simply be very, very tough, and will constantly be dealing a little bit of damage.
MarkB 07-12-06, 03:56 AM	Only have him use his innate power to create his rank-and-file cannon fodder. For higher-level minions, he has a custom staff that casts create undead for one charge and create greater undead for 5 charges, which he's used to create all his senior minions. The staff has seen a lot of use, and is currently down to 12 charges.
Stormsender 07-12-06, 04:04 AM	Could you add character classes to make them tougher and more skill I guess it's the same as adding hit dice but I think 2 8th level Skeleton Fighters, and 2 level 8 Zombie, ?Monks? hehe would be a challenge and funny at the same time. You could have the Zombie's have skill ranks in dance so they could do a tribute to Micheal Jackson's Thriller, Heee Heee heee.
Leilond 07-12-06, 04:51 AM	Could you add character classes to make them tougher and more skill I guess it's the same as adding hit dice but I think 2 8th level Skeleton Fighters, and 2 level 8 Zombie, ?Monks? hehe would be a challenge and funny at the same time. You could have the Zombie's have skill ranks in dance so they could do a tribute to Micheal Jackson's Thriller, Heee Heee heee. Well this is out of the rule, because skeletons and zombies cannot have class levels in 3.5, but you can do what you want If you want to stay in the rule simply create some zombies from bigger monster like Ogre, Ettins, Giants (various), Dire Animals (various), Trolls and so on
kliate 07-12-06, 08:47 AM	Use good tactics. Equip the undead minions with ranged weapons and have them disperse when pursued by the characters. Even mindless undead can follow commands, and "scatter" isn't too much of a stretch for them to grasp. Next, make effective use of cover. An archer of CR 1/3 is an easy kill for a 9th level PC. A team of archers of CR 1/3 behind an arrow slit that provides improved cover (+8 AC, +4 reflex save, improved evasion) can be deadly. Given the fact that this is a Warlock with unlimited uses of invocations, give him a supply of corpses culled from earlier battles to animate as on-the-spot reinforcements. The undead should focus their attacks on spellcasters - especially clerics. The Warlock should also focus his attention on clerics as they pose the greatest threat to his army. Note that unless their leader takes some effort to command them, however, they will tend to default to attacking the closest living creature that doesn't control them. Finally, set up traps and advantages for the undead. Rather than having a bunch charge in and get destroyed by some great-cleaving fighter, try some of these: -Cover the ground in oil. Equip a handful of skeletons with +1 flaming arrows (or just a bit of tar and a lantern to light the arrows agains), and shoot the oil. -Use area-effect cold attacks that cover your skeletons along with any PCs in the area. Your skeletons won't care, but the PCs will. -Use area-effect negative energy attacks (mass inflict, for example). -As above, keep a supply of corpses for emergency reinforcements -Collapse the ceiling. You'd be surprised how many situations this can help in. -Use the undead as a screen and pelt the party from a distance. Staying behind a line of skeletons still provides cover, after all. -Use illusions (such as Veil) to make the undead look normal. A paranoid party is a doomed party.
Finarin Panjoro 07-12-06, 09:20 AM	Here are some suggestions: -Add templates such as fiendish to them. -Fortify the battlefield with a desecrate effect to give them bonuses and reduce turning effectiveness. And my favorite one: Use the mob rules from the DMG 2. A mob of skeletons and zombies is a CR 8 encounter and much harder to handle than 40 skeletons and zombies in standard combat. Mobs are similar to swarms (see the MM or SRD) in most respects. 2 undead mobs (meaning about 80 undead) is a serious challenge for a level 9 party (unless they can all fly) even with a cleric. I give the mixed mob DR 2/- and DR 5 vs. peircing and cold resistance 10 (skeletons are immune to cold but zombies aren't). The mob rules don't include specific rules for turning but I have the cleric roll turn damage and inflict 1 negative level on the mob for each point of turn damage if there are 1 HD skeletons in it. Or 1 negative level per two points of damage if the mob is all 2 HD zombies. etc. If you don't have the DMG 2 this thread in Regdar's Repository will have almost all the information you need: A Single Template Mass-Combat Mechanic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=637522) Just convert the mob based military unit presented there into an undead unit and it should work just fine.
TarlSS 07-12-06, 09:28 AM	What's wrong with Zombie dragons? I'd be afraid of zombie dragons. Nothing is wrong with Zombie Dragons.
Tormsskull 07-12-06, 10:25 AM	While there are some items/spells in standard D&D 3.5 to empower undead, you're free to create your own. You could give the BBEG an artifact that makes his undead minions unkillable. You can reduce them to 1 HP, at which point they fall, but heal rapidly (say fast healing 5). Then once they are at max HP they rise once again. Sure, a party that walks in and slaughters 6 zombies won't even feel the breeze. When those 6 zombies get back up and continue fighting, the party will begin to wonder. When they continue to rise despite the party's best effort, they'll have to try to contain the zombies somehow rather than simply destroying them.
WCH 07-12-06, 07:59 PM	Okay, so I'm thinking of going with Fast, Bloodthirsty, Unkillable Bugbear Zombies with 4 bonus hd. Oh yeah, and they're going to be in a room bathed in magical darkness and under the effect of Unhallow, so the PCs won't even know what's eating them... they'll just get set upon by fast moving, vicious creatures which don't want to die. Of course, they're still zombies... they still barely deal any damage... but they'll be hard to kill and should be conducive to a creepy atmosphere.
Sargon 07-13-06, 10:47 AM	Create Undead/Greater allows you to create corspe creatures, A template found near the end of the BoVD .... is that a bad word? BoVD? I know its not the mature fourms... wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings. CorpseCrafter from Libris Mortis Lots of good Necromancy feats and stuff in there... maybe even a graft for your warlock that turns PC's into zombies with a touch attack... something like that. Also you mentioned it would take like 8 zombies to treaten your PC's, well... thats the thing with zombies... there are always so many zombies.. have you ever seen the zombie movie where the few people left alive huddle up in a house or on a roof while thousands of zombies wander the streets? Sure you can bash one or two in the head..but if 8 zombies are attacking each PC well... its not a good day to be outside.
WCH 07-13-06, 03:48 PM	One thing that I'm looking at hitting upon here is the fear of the unexpected/unknown... PCs see zombies, figure piece of cake, get brutalized and are forced to escape. Also, I really dislike having to keep track of massive numbers of enemies. I'd much rather have the PCs fight a half dozen of these things, and just barely win... only to find out that there are hundreds of them. Then when they defeat the BBEG despite the odds and put an end to his army creating evilness, they find his journal and discover that he was getting ready to defend against an invasion of Kythons. Sort of a Lovecraftian "yeah, you're screwed anyway" thing with lots of moral ambiguity and the rules not behaving normally (like bugbear zombies being CR 5).
Ryan_Singer 07-13-06, 06:39 PM	Two words for you: Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm). Zombies can only make 1 standard or move action per round, which means no full-attacking. It's why Dragon Zombies aren't as scary as dragons. Hydras, through, have this amazing ability to attack once with each head, even as part of a charge or as a standard action. That's right, now your zombie can partial-charge for 6 attacks.
InterSilva 07-13-06, 07:23 PM	Hydra Zombies and Ogre Zombies are devastating if their controller has a good grasp of tactics (i.e. int 15+). Libris Mortis has some great feats and items for making your undead beefy. One of my personal favorites is one where your undead blow up when they die for 1d8 damager per HD or something like that. The best part is that it's negative energy, so it heals all of their buddies! Also, there's a rod of undead controlling which doubles the number oh hit dice of undead he can control. At 10,000 gp, he'd be stupid not to have it. It's all about tactics. I almost killed my entire 9th-10th level party with a 7th-level vampire cleric necromancer and his four Ogre Skeletons. I've also done a number on PCs using Hydra Zombies. They have between five and twelve normal attacks, reach, and a good hunk of health? Sign me up! Throw a horde of skeletons with that necro feat that makes them burst for negative energy, a Hydra or two, and some Ogres at your PCs, and they'll have a tough time for sure. The cleric will turn (and kill) the skellies, pretty much healing the big guys completely, and the big guys will just wail away on your poor PCs. Everyone makes fun of zombies and skeletons because they're most commonly used as low-level encounters. It's gratifying to make your PCs fear these "normal" undead. Don't take my word for it, try it!
neilthrun 07-14-06, 12:10 PM	Use the terrain to your advantage, a mindless zombie won't worry about its well being, a PC will. Use lots of big traps. Huge Rolling boulders, pit traps, and small bridges, that are slowly falling apart. The idea is to make the undead the minor threat, and the traps and terrain the big threat. With any luck, the PCs will be so busy doging traps, they'll provoke AOO after AOO from your zombies and skeletons. The traditonal, room flooding with water becomes alot more deadly when its filled with 20 skeletons.