Animate Dead, Animate Object; wattup with that? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead, Animate Object; wattup with that? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Templetroll
10-18-06, 11:49 AM Where does D&D 'explicitly state' a corpse is an object? You cannot Animate Object a corpse, you can Animate Object an end table..

Actually, you can. It would be treated as a Medium animated object.

Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it.
Toloran
10-18-06, 12:02 PM Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it.

Ok, first a definition of object:

Anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form.

So basically anything that phisically exists is an object. A table physically exists and so does a corpse so they are both objects. This also applys to living things as well since they are still objects but self motivating ones.

Now, for the rules on Animate Object:

Animate Objects
Transmutation
Level: Brd 6, Chaos 6, Clr 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: One Small object per caster level; see text
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life. Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate.
An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell.
This spell cannot animate objects carried or worn by a creature.
Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Now the spell specifies any non-magical, innanimate object. So, by the wording in the SRD, you CAN animate object a corpse. You couldn't cast it on a living person because they are still animate (even if they aren't currently moving). Now, although this seems REALLY good compared to animate dead (expecially since an animated object cannot be turned), it has a FAR shorter duration.
Arganis
10-18-06, 12:08 PM Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it.

As far as I remember, there are no explicit definitions of Creature and Object. We can't go to Webster's here because these are game terms.

I do know that there is no RAW statement that governs the transition from Creature to Object on death.

However, it is reasonable to assume that a medium-sized corpse can be targeted by Animate Object spell and thereby conferred the stats of a Medium Animated Object.

The corpse would not gain the stats of a Zombie or Skeleton, as Animate Object explicitly uses the Animated Object stats and does not duplicate the effects of Animate Dead.

Mechanically, as long as animating a medium corpse is no different than animating a medium dresser, then there is nothing to worry about.
Vestigial_Thumb
10-18-06, 12:28 PM I just found that little b**** hiding in the 3.5 FAQ:
Does the speak with dead spell work on destroyed undead? For example, can my cleric kill a zombie and then use speak with dead on it to learn who created it? The spell description implies the one-time act of becoming undead ruins any chance the spell will have of working against a creature ever again, even after it is “dead” again.

Speak with dead doesn’t work on undead creatures, only on corpses. An undead creature is not alive, but it’s also not a corpse—a corpse is an object. (The undead creature might have been made from a corpse, but it has transformed into something else, mainly a creature). If you destroy an undead creature, it ceases being a creature and becomes an object again.

Speak with dead probably won’t work on a destroyed undead creature, either, since they’re probably too badly damaged to respond to the spellcaster’s questions.
Take that, Troll (not calling you a troll, just referring to your name).
aotrscommander
10-18-06, 12:32 PM From the FAQ:

Is a dead warforged character’s body subject to sunder
attacks, since it is now just an object of wood and metal?
A dead body of any creature (warforged, human, dragon,
whatever) is treated as an object, and thus can be damaged
using the rules for “Smashing an Object” on page 165 of the
Player’s Handbook.
There are no rules for determining the hardness or hit
points of a corpse. Most dead bodies don’t have a hardness
score, but the creature’s DR (if any) should continue to apply
against attacks. Use Table 9–9: Substance Hardness and Hit
Points and Table 9–11: Object Hardness and Hit Points in the
Player’s Handbook to estimate hit point values for corpses
should such situations arise in your game.

(emphasis mine)

So, noticing VT's post as I wrote mine, that's two places it says that.

So VT is correct. It would be an animate object, probably with fairly lame hit and hardness.
Templetroll
10-18-06, 12:58 PM Take that, Troll (not calling you a troll, just referring to your name).

LOL! not a problem. I recognize the distinction. :)

Yes, that is exactly the point I was interested in. Thanks! That will make for some confusing encounter someday. ;)

Something else about Animate Object,

Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate.

As I read this the AO corpse would be able to attack, but only on the caster's command. An Animated Dead Skeleton or Zombie is able to follow you, an AO corpse would not. The spell does not provide for obeying any order other than attack nor any state other than standing still waiting to attack what you designate. The Animated Dead Skeleton or Zombie can be given an order to guard an area and attack or not attack creatures that enter, the AO corpse would not.

Neither AD Skel or zombie nor AO corpse can do 'work' Unseen Servant can do that, the spell specifies the parameters of what it is able to do.
aotrscommander
10-18-06, 01:41 PM Neither AD Skel or zombie nor AO corpse can do 'work' Unseen Servant can do that, the spell specifies the parameters of what it is able to do.

Well, I guess that depend son how you define work 'work'. I find my Pale Master Invagrion's direction of his animated minions to be most entertaining: E.g. "Troll Bob 2, take this spear and go and poke the man floating in green mist once with the butt end and then come back." Natuarally, the minion in question ened up (feather)falling through a hole in the floor into the battle below, and presumably spent the rest of the battle looking for a man in green mist. (This has become a running gag.)

Plus, it means you can do your best Captain Orion when directing the action "No! You fools! No, there! Noo... not there! Aagh! No! Quickly! We must retreat! I am sorry, Commander!" etc...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-18-06, 03:31 PM As far as I remember, there are no explicit definitions of Creature and Object. We can't go to Webster's here because these are game terms.

There are explicit definitions. A creature is anything with a Wisdom and Charisma score. An object is anything without a Wisdom and Charisma score.
Lunas_Argent
10-18-06, 04:25 PM So, by the wording in the SRD, you CAN animate object a corpse. You couldn't cast it on a living person because they are still animate (even if they aren't currently moving).
I know this would moe likely occur in D20 Modern than DND, but what if the person is completely paralyzed and his body has absolutely no motor control and their nervous system is shut down? Can that persons corpus be considered an object?
Vestigial_Thumb
10-18-06, 04:39 PM Can that persons corpus be considered an object?
Umm... no.

The body is still connected to the body, there is biological activity there that goes on, thanks to smooth muscle and the cardiac muscle. The heart still pumps blood to all the cells in the paralyzed body parts. In short, the body is still alive, even though you can't move it.
CryoSilver
10-18-06, 04:40 PM If their mental scores have been reduced to zero, they are still technically alive, just comatose.

If they NO LONGER HAVE mental scores, they are objects.
CharlieRock
10-18-06, 04:54 PM Side note nad marginally off topic; Standing still seems to be inferred by the reader in these spell descritions. An AD Zombie could very well shuffle about in a tight circle and still "do nothing". Its all left to our imaginations. ;)
Templetroll
10-18-06, 04:54 PM Well, I guess that depend son how you define work 'work'. I find my Pale Master Invagrion's direction of his animated minions to be most entertaining: E.g. "Troll Bob 2, take this spear and go and poke the man floating in green mist once with the butt end and then come back." Natuarally, the minion in question ened up (feather)falling through a hole in the floor into the battle below, and presumably spent the rest of the battle looking for a man in green mist. (This has become a running gag.)

Plus, it means you can do your best Captain Orion when directing the action "No! You fools! No, there! Noo... not there! Aagh! No! Quickly! We must retreat! I am sorry, Commander!" etc...

:)

I don't have the book, but there is a PrC, I believe, that has a special ability to get their AD to actually be able to follow orders so as to do work. Also. the only commands that the AD spell provides for are Attack, follow you or guard this place and attack (creatures named) or attack anyone except (creatures named). AO effected objects can attack or wait for caster's order to attack. So, do you think that Magic Mouth would suffice to be the caster's voice for that aspect of the ability to command?

Also, I define work for spell purposes to be similar to what the Unseen Servant spell delineates. The fact that the other spells do not mention such things means, to me, that they do not grant the ability to do to that which has been animated.
CharlieRock
10-18-06, 04:56 PM What? A small detail about a PrC that evades the gamer for the moment? In D&D3.5? Say it ain't so, boss! :D
Templetroll
10-18-06, 04:59 PM Side note nad marginally off topic; Standing still seems to be inferred by the reader in these spell descritions. An AD Zombie could very well shuffle about in a tight circle and still "do nothing". Its all left to our imaginations. ;)

That would be cool to describe the sound of constant shuffling feet to the party, and see what they make out of the noise.
CharlieRock
10-18-06, 05:19 PM That would be cool to describe the sound of constant shuffling feet to the party, and see what they make out of the noise.
:rofl: I've done that, recomend it ,too.
aotrscommander
10-18-06, 05:28 PM :)

I don't have the book, but there is a PrC, I believe, that has a special ability to get their AD to actually be able to follow orders so as to do work. Also. the only commands that the AD spell provides for are Attack, follow you or guard this place and attack (creatures named) or attack anyone except (creatures named). AO effected objects can attack or wait for caster's order to attack. So, do you think that Magic Mouth would suffice to be the caster's voice for that aspect of the ability to command?

Also, I define work for spell purposes to be similar to what the Unseen Servant spell delineates. The fact that the other spells do not mention such things means, to me, that they do not grant the ability to do to that which has been animated.

Animate Dead does say they they follow your spoken commands. What that does mean, is that to do anything remotely useful, you basically have to micromanage them. Combat is a slightly different issue (since as of 3.5 they retain some knowledge of weaponry and armour possessed in life); I guess it's more like the spell is hard-coded in a manner such as 'attack means activate this set of algorithms' whereas anything else requires more direct input. (Oh, and instructions much longer than Troll Bob 2s probably require more than a single step!)

Unseen Servant has a level of autonomy (you can order it to clean your house, for example). It has a level of judgement, albiet limited, whereas animated dead/objects is like running a machine. You can tell it what to do, but you have to be specifiy as it has no measure of when to stop. Using Troll Bob 2 to clean the house (assuming Invagrion had one!) would go something like this:

"Take the broom. Sweep the floor. No! Complete one side-to-side sweep and then move a step forwards. Repeat. Repeat. Mind the table! I mean, stop! Move sidesways! No, not that way! No, stop sweeping, you cretin! Watch out the chandilier! Aaargh! Sod, this, I'm loading Unseen Servant!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Templetroll 10-18-06, 11:49 AM	Where does D&D 'explicitly state' a corpse is an object? You cannot Animate Object a corpse, you can Animate Object an end table.. Actually, you can. It would be treated as a Medium animated object. Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it.
Toloran 10-18-06, 12:02 PM	Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it. Ok, first a definition of object: Anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form. So basically anything that phisically exists is an object. A table physically exists and so does a corpse so they are both objects. This also applys to living things as well since they are still objects but self motivating ones. Now, for the rules on Animate Object: Animate Objects Transmutation Level: Brd 6, Chaos 6, Clr 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: One Small object per caster level; see text Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life. Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate. An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell. This spell cannot animate objects carried or worn by a creature. Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Now the spell specifies any non-magical, innanimate object. So, by the wording in the SRD, you CAN animate object a corpse. You couldn't cast it on a living person because they are still animate (even if they aren't currently moving). Now, although this seems REALLY good compared to animate dead (expecially since an animated object cannot be turned), it has a FAR shorter duration.
Arganis 10-18-06, 12:08 PM	Vestigial, where does D&D state a corpse is an object. I'd like to read that so I better understand your point. So far, I disagree with it. As far as I remember, there are no explicit definitions of Creature and Object. We can't go to Webster's here because these are game terms. I do know that there is no RAW statement that governs the transition from Creature to Object on death. However, it is reasonable to assume that a medium-sized corpse can be targeted by Animate Object spell and thereby conferred the stats of a Medium Animated Object. The corpse would not gain the stats of a Zombie or Skeleton, as Animate Object explicitly uses the Animated Object stats and does not duplicate the effects of Animate Dead. Mechanically, as long as animating a medium corpse is no different than animating a medium dresser, then there is nothing to worry about.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-18-06, 12:28 PM	I just found that little b**** hiding in the 3.5 FAQ: Does the speak with dead spell work on destroyed undead? For example, can my cleric kill a zombie and then use speak with dead on it to learn who created it? The spell description implies the one-time act of becoming undead ruins any chance the spell will have of working against a creature ever again, even after it is “dead” again. Speak with dead doesn’t work on undead creatures, only on corpses. An undead creature is not alive, but it’s also not a corpse—a corpse is an object. (The undead creature might have been made from a corpse, but it has transformed into something else, mainly a creature). If you destroy an undead creature, it ceases being a creature and becomes an object again. Speak with dead probably won’t work on a destroyed undead creature, either, since they’re probably too badly damaged to respond to the spellcaster’s questions. Take that, Troll (not calling you a troll, just referring to your name).
aotrscommander 10-18-06, 12:32 PM	From the FAQ: Is a dead warforged character’s body subject to sunder attacks, since it is now just an object of wood and metal? A dead body of any creature (warforged, human, dragon, whatever) is treated as an object, and thus can be damaged using the rules for “Smashing an Object” on page 165 of the Player’s Handbook. There are no rules for determining the hardness or hit points of a corpse. Most dead bodies don’t have a hardness score, but the creature’s DR (if any) should continue to apply against attacks. Use Table 9–9: Substance Hardness and Hit Points and Table 9–11: Object Hardness and Hit Points in the Player’s Handbook to estimate hit point values for corpses should such situations arise in your game. (emphasis mine) So, noticing VT's post as I wrote mine, that's two places it says that. So VT is correct. It would be an animate object, probably with fairly lame hit and hardness.
Templetroll 10-18-06, 12:58 PM	Take that, Troll (not calling you a troll, just referring to your name). LOL! not a problem. I recognize the distinction. :) Yes, that is exactly the point I was interested in. Thanks! That will make for some confusing encounter someday. ;) Something else about Animate Object, Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate. As I read this the AO corpse would be able to attack, but only on the caster's command. An Animated Dead Skeleton or Zombie is able to follow you, an AO corpse would not. The spell does not provide for obeying any order other than attack nor any state other than standing still waiting to attack what you designate. The Animated Dead Skeleton or Zombie can be given an order to guard an area and attack or not attack creatures that enter, the AO corpse would not. Neither AD Skel or zombie nor AO corpse can do 'work' Unseen Servant can do that, the spell specifies the parameters of what it is able to do.
aotrscommander 10-18-06, 01:41 PM	Neither AD Skel or zombie nor AO corpse can do 'work' Unseen Servant can do that, the spell specifies the parameters of what it is able to do. Well, I guess that depend son how you define work 'work'. I find my Pale Master Invagrion's direction of his animated minions to be most entertaining: E.g. "Troll Bob 2, take this spear and go and poke the man floating in green mist once with the butt end and then come back." Natuarally, the minion in question ened up (feather)falling through a hole in the floor into the battle below, and presumably spent the rest of the battle looking for a man in green mist. (This has become a running gag.) Plus, it means you can do your best Captain Orion when directing the action "No! You fools! No, there! Noo... not there! Aagh! No! Quickly! We must retreat! I am sorry, Commander!" etc...
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-18-06, 03:31 PM	As far as I remember, there are no explicit definitions of Creature and Object. We can't go to Webster's here because these are game terms. There are explicit definitions. A creature is anything with a Wisdom and Charisma score. An object is anything without a Wisdom and Charisma score.
Lunas_Argent 10-18-06, 04:25 PM	So, by the wording in the SRD, you CAN animate object a corpse. You couldn't cast it on a living person because they are still animate (even if they aren't currently moving). I know this would moe likely occur in D20 Modern than DND, but what if the person is completely paralyzed and his body has absolutely no motor control and their nervous system is shut down? Can that persons corpus be considered an object?
Vestigial_Thumb 10-18-06, 04:39 PM	Can that persons corpus be considered an object? Umm... no. The body is still connected to the body, there is biological activity there that goes on, thanks to smooth muscle and the cardiac muscle. The heart still pumps blood to all the cells in the paralyzed body parts. In short, the body is still alive, even though you can't move it.
CryoSilver 10-18-06, 04:40 PM	If their mental scores have been reduced to zero, they are still technically alive, just comatose. If they NO LONGER HAVE mental scores, they are objects.
CharlieRock 10-18-06, 04:54 PM	Side note nad marginally off topic; Standing still seems to be inferred by the reader in these spell descritions. An AD Zombie could very well shuffle about in a tight circle and still "do nothing". Its all left to our imaginations. ;)
Templetroll 10-18-06, 04:54 PM	Well, I guess that depend son how you define work 'work'. I find my Pale Master Invagrion's direction of his animated minions to be most entertaining: E.g. "Troll Bob 2, take this spear and go and poke the man floating in green mist once with the butt end and then come back." Natuarally, the minion in question ened up (feather)falling through a hole in the floor into the battle below, and presumably spent the rest of the battle looking for a man in green mist. (This has become a running gag.) Plus, it means you can do your best Captain Orion when directing the action "No! You fools! No, there! Noo... not there! Aagh! No! Quickly! We must retreat! I am sorry, Commander!" etc... :) I don't have the book, but there is a PrC, I believe, that has a special ability to get their AD to actually be able to follow orders so as to do work. Also. the only commands that the AD spell provides for are Attack, follow you or guard this place and attack (creatures named) or attack anyone except (creatures named). AO effected objects can attack or wait for caster's order to attack. So, do you think that Magic Mouth would suffice to be the caster's voice for that aspect of the ability to command? Also, I define work for spell purposes to be similar to what the Unseen Servant spell delineates. The fact that the other spells do not mention such things means, to me, that they do not grant the ability to do to that which has been animated.
CharlieRock 10-18-06, 04:56 PM	What? A small detail about a PrC that evades the gamer for the moment? In D&D3.5? Say it ain't so, boss! :D
Templetroll 10-18-06, 04:59 PM	Side note nad marginally off topic; Standing still seems to be inferred by the reader in these spell descritions. An AD Zombie could very well shuffle about in a tight circle and still "do nothing". Its all left to our imaginations. ;) That would be cool to describe the sound of constant shuffling feet to the party, and see what they make out of the noise.
CharlieRock 10-18-06, 05:19 PM	That would be cool to describe the sound of constant shuffling feet to the party, and see what they make out of the noise. :rofl: I've done that, recomend it ,too.
aotrscommander 10-18-06, 05:28 PM	:) I don't have the book, but there is a PrC, I believe, that has a special ability to get their AD to actually be able to follow orders so as to do work. Also. the only commands that the AD spell provides for are Attack, follow you or guard this place and attack (creatures named) or attack anyone except (creatures named). AO effected objects can attack or wait for caster's order to attack. So, do you think that Magic Mouth would suffice to be the caster's voice for that aspect of the ability to command? Also, I define work for spell purposes to be similar to what the Unseen Servant spell delineates. The fact that the other spells do not mention such things means, to me, that they do not grant the ability to do to that which has been animated. Animate Dead does say they they follow your spoken commands. What that does mean, is that to do anything remotely useful, you basically have to micromanage them. Combat is a slightly different issue (since as of 3.5 they retain some knowledge of weaponry and armour possessed in life); I guess it's more like the spell is hard-coded in a manner such as 'attack means activate this set of algorithms' whereas anything else requires more direct input. (Oh, and instructions much longer than Troll Bob 2s probably require more than a single step!) Unseen Servant has a level of autonomy (you can order it to clean your house, for example). It has a level of judgement, albiet limited, whereas animated dead/objects is like running a machine. You can tell it what to do, but you have to be specifiy as it has no measure of when to stop. Using Troll Bob 2 to clean the house (assuming Invagrion had one!) would go something like this: "Take the broom. Sweep the floor. No! Complete one side-to-side sweep and then move a step forwards. Repeat. Repeat. Mind the table! I mean, stop! Move sidesways! No, not that way! No, stop sweeping, you cretin! Watch out the chandilier! Aaargh! Sod, this, I'm loading Unseen Servant!"