Animate dead vs Create greater undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate dead vs Create greater undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jhalin
07-25-06, 05:36 PM I'm a bit confused as to what the spell upgrades to Animate dead entale...
Animate dead your creating a skeleton or a zombie. templets are there to adjust accordingly.
with the next 2 spell upgrades, you get a list of mobs that dont have templates.
does the 23 HD dragon for instance, lose all its HD, all its SU EX abilities and become a base normal as show in mm1 Shadow? Or is there a book that shows what abilities they lose and gain when you create greater undead?

Player wants to create a Young (Shadow) Black dragon. But doesnt see the point if it just becomes a simple Shadow undead. And lose's all of its regular abilities,HD and characteristics.

any info would be most helpful,
thanks:)
Archmage Atrus
07-25-06, 05:45 PM Shadow isn't a template undead creature...

So... yeah, basically you would create a very big shadow. You might rule he creates an advanced shadow (IE, more hit die), but it still wouldn't get any of its special abilities. I am unaware if there are any templates for Shadows. If he wants an undead incorporeal dragon, why not make a ghost dragon?
bitswordmaker
07-25-06, 05:59 PM Essentially, yes he would just have a rather large Shadow.
It'd probably be more advanced, so you'd have to make thie HD adjustments, but it wouldn't have any of the abilities.
If he's looking for a way to make it incorporeal, ghost would be better, as mentioed before.
Jhalin
07-25-06, 09:47 PM Create Greater Undead allows for shadows, wraith, spectre and evourer,
Create Undead allows for ghoul, ghast, mummy, mohrg
Animate dead only skeletons and zombie.
Where can i find the spell or spells to make the other undead template types such as ghost.
I have never seen a spell that does that effect.
Oakspar77777
07-25-06, 11:42 PM Look in Libra Mortis and similar text to find templates for most undead types. Also note that those spells are mentioned in the BoVD as ways to create Bone and Corpse creatures. Some new undead mention which spell could greate them.

In general, you should talk to your DM. A large generic Shadow is a different thing from a Shadow Ogre, but either is a possible creature in D&D.

A dragon might have too many HD for the spell (anything over 20 is going to take an Epic spell), but most DM's won't mind you creating more memorable undead minions, so long as you don't try to use it as a tool for explotation.
Jhalin
07-26-06, 02:58 AM Libris Mortis has only ideas and modifications on undead types. it has no templates for the undead types listed on create undead and greater create undead, or the ghost template...
also to note

if any of this is incorrect please give me the page numbers and books to prove otherwise so i can look them up. thanky

Starting with Animate dead lvl 3 clr/4wis/sor4
you can create 1 or more targets, you cant create more then 2x your HD in 1 cast wether its A Single undead or a group of them. SO under normal conditions if i were a lvl 12 cleric i could create if i wanted from a 24 hd monster corpse, a 24hd zombie or skeleton. NOW any other type of undead can cause issues well most... if its a undead such as a mummy it doesnt appear under your control. .you have to make it your pet. which doesnt always work with rebuking, command undead, whatevers, also zombie/skeletons lose all there (SU) and most other abilities and lose half or more of there original ac. SO even if i turn this 37 hd dragon into a pet at some point its 46 ac would turn into a 23 IF if was a zombie. if it is a skeleton its drops drasticaly further.. So in essense what i gain from this is a BIG meat shield.
Also you can control 4x your HD total in undead NOT including those you control with rebuking, OR if you have a Undead Cohort.
ALSO Note- you stumble across the corpse of some epic battle. The corpse of a titan will say 50 HD is rottin on the ground. I would walk up Desecrate the given area. Then as my 15 lvl i could only raise somthing normaly as 30max HD. Desecrate doubles my initial abilty to create undead. which takes my max of to 60hd in one creation. So i turn him into a zombie. he loses half his AC rounded down all his spell casting abilities and alot of other random stuffs including ability to use weapon armor.
Now my current totaly of controllable HD without the desecration goes back down to 4x my hd. 60 hd. so i have 10 to spare. and i big dump zombie.
Then get a wizard friend from group if have one to cast Awaken undead. My pet now has possible int of 10 and can use his weapon and armor as he did in life. and can follow intructions better and understand.

Another thing that is fairly cheap around 10+ lvl depending how you save your cash as a cleric/wizard. Rod of undead mastery. 10k gold. doubles your normal controllable total.
so even with meh pet fluffy following me around i'm still allowed to control another 70hd total of undead 70 goblins shrugs...or few ogre's.

I still havnt found anything in any book tho on how the monster you raise up as a form of undead end up after, wether its just regular or somhow alters similarly to zombie and skeleton. I am hoping to find somthing on ghost creation in Ghost Walk book but still want to find and understand what to do with the rest of the undead Listed in Create undead and greater create undead. I'll check out Bovd havnt checked there as of yet....

I'm 1 of 3 DM for this group depending the given week... but none of us can find anything on this. Beyond saying ok whatever you turn into these given Undead, turn into these stats as shown in the MM1.. leaving no room for unique undead of each type. a gnome vampire is very different from a Thrikreen vampire.. they keep alot of the characterics
enlightened
07-26-06, 03:31 AM you stumble across the corpse of some epic battle. The corpse of a titan will say 50 HD is rottin on the ground. I would walk up Desecrate the given area. Then as my 15 lvl i could only raise somthing normaly as 30max HD. Desecrate doubles my initial abilty to create undead. which takes my max of to 60hd in one creation. So i turn him into a zombie.

And this would cost a 1250gp black onyx gem (common or rare depending on your game world).

I think this expensive material component is a much over-looked aspect of the animate dead spell.

I was playing in a group temporarily once, and the group's necromancer (a regular in the group) cast animate dead in the middle of a combat to raise the enemies that we had thus far killed. When I raised the issue of having to put a black onyx gem into all of their eyes first, everybody (including the DM) looked at me like I was crazy.

I my regular group we always strictly enforce spell component rules.

............different strokes.
kliate
07-26-06, 08:13 AM Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.

Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

The 50HD Titan Skeleton/Zombie situation isn't possible by any normal use of Animate Dead.
Jhalin
07-26-06, 11:48 AM i know the spell components. by 15 lvl if you wanted somthing like that is possible. Again i'm not worried about this end of it i know and under stand this. Rare or not is it still possible.

50hd titan was just an example, even if they cant hit that HD i'm saying you still could turn it into a skeleton etc.

Here is example that actualy exists.

Rust Dragon. 39 HD, Costs 975g black oynx gem To create. I never said this was being done every single day or even often. The player could have been saving up for somthing like this. EITHER WAY its still possible.

What i need to know, is how it is effected by turning it into these things. Shadow, Wraith, Spectre, Devourer, Ghoul, Ghast, Mummy, and Mohrg. If there somthing for ghost somewhere i'm also intrested.

No matter how rare the Black onyx is its not epic its not magic its still possible to buy trade look for in a gaming world. spell components are a must but not impossible to find.
I need info on the aftermath of casting the spell, what changes happen to the mobs.

kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help. Dragons for example can be. Page 192 and page 197 of the draconimicon. Goes over the dragon transformation to Skeleton and zombie templates.
Leilond
07-26-06, 11:58 AM kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help.

In the PHB 3.5
In the spell description. No more than 10HD monster can be animated with the "animate death" spell
green_yawgmoth
07-26-06, 12:03 PM In the PHB 3.5
In the spell description. No more than 10HD monster can be animated with the "animate death" spell
First of all, it's Animate Dead. Secondly, the cap is 20 HD.

The shadow, wight, etc. templates are in Savage Species (which was made to be a bridge between 3.0 and 3.5, and says in the front that it uses the new rules). I believe there's an "umbral creature" template in LM, which is essentially a shadow.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Leilond
07-26-06, 12:09 PM First of all, it's Animate Dead. Secondly, the cap is 20 HD.

I was incomplete, you are right
Total 20HD of undead that means
20HD for skeleton and 10HD for zombie (because their HD are doubled when trasformed to zombi)

As you can read on the MM under Skeletons and Zombies

P.S.
Sorry for my english ;)
kliate
07-26-06, 01:14 PM kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help. Dragons for example can be. Page 192 and page 197 of the draconimicon. Goes over the dragon transformation to Skeleton and zombie templates.

Exactly where I cited. The HD entries for the Skeleton and Zombie in the MM. The words "Normal use" were carefully chosen.
Jhalin
07-26-06, 03:44 PM Ok i see what your talking about on the zombie from the mm.

For dragons Skeleton And zombie the HD rule doesnt apply. since spell also doesnt work totaly the same for those 2.
"A zombie dragon is created by use of the animate dead spell or by a vampiric dragon."
The Dragons HD remain the same but it loses any constitution bonus to its hip points, however a zombie dragon gain bonus hit points equal to twice its HD.
Skeletal dragon also via animate dead, same thing HD kept same. but it gains bonus hp same as its HD. example given 22hd skeletal dragon. with dragons, skeleton and zombie dont have a lvl cap shown. and expample shows it to be higher then 20, unlike normal mobs

thank you for pointed out the rules in the mm1 tho very very useful to know. And also the savage species i should have checked there from the start... been a longggggg week:(
Jhalin
07-26-06, 10:13 PM all info the the skeleton dragon/zombie in draconimicon

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhalin 07-25-06, 05:36 PM	I'm a bit confused as to what the spell upgrades to Animate dead entale... Animate dead your creating a skeleton or a zombie. templets are there to adjust accordingly. with the next 2 spell upgrades, you get a list of mobs that dont have templates. does the 23 HD dragon for instance, lose all its HD, all its SU EX abilities and become a base normal as show in mm1 Shadow? Or is there a book that shows what abilities they lose and gain when you create greater undead? Player wants to create a Young (Shadow) Black dragon. But doesnt see the point if it just becomes a simple Shadow undead. And lose's all of its regular abilities,HD and characteristics. any info would be most helpful, thanks:)
Archmage Atrus 07-25-06, 05:45 PM	Shadow isn't a template undead creature... So... yeah, basically you would create a very big shadow. You might rule he creates an advanced shadow (IE, more hit die), but it still wouldn't get any of its special abilities. I am unaware if there are any templates for Shadows. If he wants an undead incorporeal dragon, why not make a ghost dragon?
bitswordmaker 07-25-06, 05:59 PM	Essentially, yes he would just have a rather large Shadow. It'd probably be more advanced, so you'd have to make thie HD adjustments, but it wouldn't have any of the abilities. If he's looking for a way to make it incorporeal, ghost would be better, as mentioed before.
Jhalin 07-25-06, 09:47 PM	Create Greater Undead allows for shadows, wraith, spectre and evourer, Create Undead allows for ghoul, ghast, mummy, mohrg Animate dead only skeletons and zombie. Where can i find the spell or spells to make the other undead template types such as ghost. I have never seen a spell that does that effect.
Oakspar77777 07-25-06, 11:42 PM	Look in Libra Mortis and similar text to find templates for most undead types. Also note that those spells are mentioned in the BoVD as ways to create Bone and Corpse creatures. Some new undead mention which spell could greate them. In general, you should talk to your DM. A large generic Shadow is a different thing from a Shadow Ogre, but either is a possible creature in D&D. A dragon might have too many HD for the spell (anything over 20 is going to take an Epic spell), but most DM's won't mind you creating more memorable undead minions, so long as you don't try to use it as a tool for explotation.
Jhalin 07-26-06, 02:58 AM	Libris Mortis has only ideas and modifications on undead types. it has no templates for the undead types listed on create undead and greater create undead, or the ghost template... also to note if any of this is incorrect please give me the page numbers and books to prove otherwise so i can look them up. thanky Starting with Animate dead lvl 3 clr/4wis/sor4 you can create 1 or more targets, you cant create more then 2x your HD in 1 cast wether its A Single undead or a group of them. SO under normal conditions if i were a lvl 12 cleric i could create if i wanted from a 24 hd monster corpse, a 24hd zombie or skeleton. NOW any other type of undead can cause issues well most... if its a undead such as a mummy it doesnt appear under your control. .you have to make it your pet. which doesnt always work with rebuking, command undead, whatevers, also zombie/skeletons lose all there (SU) and most other abilities and lose half or more of there original ac. SO even if i turn this 37 hd dragon into a pet at some point its 46 ac would turn into a 23 IF if was a zombie. if it is a skeleton its drops drasticaly further.. So in essense what i gain from this is a BIG meat shield. Also you can control 4x your HD total in undead NOT including those you control with rebuking, OR if you have a Undead Cohort. ALSO Note- you stumble across the corpse of some epic battle. The corpse of a titan will say 50 HD is rottin on the ground. I would walk up Desecrate the given area. Then as my 15 lvl i could only raise somthing normaly as 30max HD. Desecrate doubles my initial abilty to create undead. which takes my max of to 60hd in one creation. So i turn him into a zombie. he loses half his AC rounded down all his spell casting abilities and alot of other random stuffs including ability to use weapon armor. Now my current totaly of controllable HD without the desecration goes back down to 4x my hd. 60 hd. so i have 10 to spare. and i big dump zombie. Then get a wizard friend from group if have one to cast Awaken undead. My pet now has possible int of 10 and can use his weapon and armor as he did in life. and can follow intructions better and understand. Another thing that is fairly cheap around 10+ lvl depending how you save your cash as a cleric/wizard. Rod of undead mastery. 10k gold. doubles your normal controllable total. so even with meh pet fluffy following me around i'm still allowed to control another 70hd total of undead 70 goblins shrugs...or few ogre's. I still havnt found anything in any book tho on how the monster you raise up as a form of undead end up after, wether its just regular or somhow alters similarly to zombie and skeleton. I am hoping to find somthing on ghost creation in Ghost Walk book but still want to find and understand what to do with the rest of the undead Listed in Create undead and greater create undead. I'll check out Bovd havnt checked there as of yet.... I'm 1 of 3 DM for this group depending the given week... but none of us can find anything on this. Beyond saying ok whatever you turn into these given Undead, turn into these stats as shown in the MM1.. leaving no room for unique undead of each type. a gnome vampire is very different from a Thrikreen vampire.. they keep alot of the characterics
enlightened 07-26-06, 03:31 AM	you stumble across the corpse of some epic battle. The corpse of a titan will say 50 HD is rottin on the ground. I would walk up Desecrate the given area. Then as my 15 lvl i could only raise somthing normaly as 30max HD. Desecrate doubles my initial abilty to create undead. which takes my max of to 60hd in one creation. So i turn him into a zombie. And this would cost a 1250gp black onyx gem (common or rare depending on your game world). I think this expensive material component is a much over-looked aspect of the animate dead spell. I was playing in a group temporarily once, and the group's necromancer (a regular in the group) cast animate dead in the middle of a combat to raise the enemies that we had thus far killed. When I raised the issue of having to put a black onyx gem into all of their eyes first, everybody (including the DM) looked at me like I was crazy. I my regular group we always strictly enforce spell component rules. ............different strokes.
kliate 07-26-06, 08:13 AM	Hit Dice Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. Hit Dice Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell. The 50HD Titan Skeleton/Zombie situation isn't possible by any normal use of Animate Dead.
Jhalin 07-26-06, 11:48 AM	i know the spell components. by 15 lvl if you wanted somthing like that is possible. Again i'm not worried about this end of it i know and under stand this. Rare or not is it still possible. 50hd titan was just an example, even if they cant hit that HD i'm saying you still could turn it into a skeleton etc. Here is example that actualy exists. Rust Dragon. 39 HD, Costs 975g black oynx gem To create. I never said this was being done every single day or even often. The player could have been saving up for somthing like this. EITHER WAY its still possible. What i need to know, is how it is effected by turning it into these things. Shadow, Wraith, Spectre, Devourer, Ghoul, Ghast, Mummy, and Mohrg. If there somthing for ghost somewhere i'm also intrested. No matter how rare the Black onyx is its not epic its not magic its still possible to buy trade look for in a gaming world. spell components are a must but not impossible to find. I need info on the aftermath of casting the spell, what changes happen to the mobs. kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help. Dragons for example can be. Page 192 and page 197 of the draconimicon. Goes over the dragon transformation to Skeleton and zombie templates.
Leilond 07-26-06, 11:58 AM	kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help. In the PHB 3.5 In the spell description. No more than 10HD monster can be animated with the "animate death" spell
green_yawgmoth 07-26-06, 12:03 PM	In the PHB 3.5 In the spell description. No more than 10HD monster can be animated with the "animate death" spell First of all, it's Animate Dead. Secondly, the cap is 20 HD. The shadow, wight, etc. templates are in Savage Species (which was made to be a bridge between 3.0 and 3.5, and says in the front that it uses the new rules). I believe there's an "umbral creature" template in LM, which is essentially a shadow. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Leilond 07-26-06, 12:09 PM	First of all, it's Animate Dead. Secondly, the cap is 20 HD. I was incomplete, you are right Total 20HD of undead that means 20HD for skeleton and 10HD for zombie (because their HD are doubled when trasformed to zombi) As you can read on the MM under Skeletons and Zombies P.S. Sorry for my english ;)
kliate 07-26-06, 01:14 PM	kliate- where does it show that HD cap your talking about? Dont see it anywhere if you could give me a referense it would help. Dragons for example can be. Page 192 and page 197 of the draconimicon. Goes over the dragon transformation to Skeleton and zombie templates. Exactly where I cited. The HD entries for the Skeleton and Zombie in the MM. The words "Normal use" were carefully chosen.
Jhalin 07-26-06, 03:44 PM	Ok i see what your talking about on the zombie from the mm. For dragons Skeleton And zombie the HD rule doesnt apply. since spell also doesnt work totaly the same for those 2. "A zombie dragon is created by use of the animate dead spell or by a vampiric dragon." The Dragons HD remain the same but it loses any constitution bonus to its hip points, however a zombie dragon gain bonus hit points equal to twice its HD. Skeletal dragon also via animate dead, same thing HD kept same. but it gains bonus hp same as its HD. example given 22hd skeletal dragon. with dragons, skeleton and zombie dont have a lvl cap shown. and expample shows it to be higher then 20, unlike normal mobs thank you for pointed out the rules in the mm1 tho very very useful to know. And also the savage species i should have checked there from the start... been a longggggg week:(
Jhalin 07-26-06, 10:13 PM	all info the the skeleton dragon/zombie in draconimicon