Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lodrin 02-22-04, 09:21 PM	I've got an evil cleric in my group and he loves to use animate dead. Because of the improvement of undead in 3.5, animating extra companions such as ogres is extremly effective at making the party much more durable. At 5th level he was able to animate 4 ogres using great clubs, and with only verbal commands necessary to order skeletons you animate (mental actions only when turning), these hirelings (while mildy expensive cash wise), are of tremendous help. My question is, do these 4 ogre skeletons take a share of the party xp? To me it seems that those 4 ogres are an incredible asset, especially since those undead are NOT affected by alot of stuff that trips low level people up (poisons, sleep spells, mental spells, con dmg.) They make excellent cannon fodder, they deal incredible damage output fo their level, can be spontaneously healed by the cleric, and together would kill anyone else in the party. They seem to be trivializing some encounters, and if I make the encounters tougher, I think I either risk killing people in the party or make them level up too fast. Thoughts?
Wilds 02-22-04, 09:35 PM	i don't think so they are summoned creatures i think technically so no xp to them they are mind less
Halzmar_of_Geoff 02-22-04, 10:42 PM	They wouldn't share party XP but they do make a more durable party so I'd adjust the party level accordingly when handing out XP - say the average party level is 10th treat them as an 11th level party when giving out XP for the encounters using the ogre skeletons. By the way how many sets of ogre skeletons has the necromancer gone through? They aren't that durable and after being destroyed once they cannot be reanimated.
was_fired 02-22-04, 11:04 PM	In this case no since they an unintelligent undead. If they were intelligent I would say they took a share of the XP.
zifnab2525 02-22-04, 11:07 PM	The Ogres aren't really summons. Summons only last for a few rounds, and you need to expand a spell slot to create them. Animated soldiers, however, are just there. I don't know if they should take a players XP since the Ogres themselves don't get any better. However, you might consider the level of the party itself higher for purposes of determining experience and treasure. A party of three 7th level characters can handle a lower CR than a party of three 7th level characters and four 4th level Ogre fighters. Don't necessarily allocate the Ogres XP, just throw harder monsters at the players. Start throwing CR 8 dragons rather than CR 8 leveled goblins. Use power combos like basalisks and morlocks, Vampires and cloakers, or ghouls and yellow mold. Or just start throwing those Good aligned clerics at him.
NinjaHedge 02-23-04, 04:02 AM	no, they don't take a share of the XP, they are treated just like summoned creatures. They do increase the strength of the group, but they are suppose to, it's a balancing factor for evil clerics.
Naeron 02-23-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by zifnab2525 The Ogres aren't really summons. Summons only last for a few rounds, and you need to expand a spell slot to create them. Animated soldiers, however, are just there. <snip> Although Animated dead are permanent until destroyed the Cleric has an absolute limit on the number they can control (4HD per level) and these undead can be turned or even better rebuked and commanded by the enemy so they can be a liability as well as an aid to the party. As the skeletons come from a spell/class ability I do not see any reason to reduce the party XP.
Twisted Puppy 02-23-04, 10:33 AM	Originally posted by Naeron Although Animated dead are permanent until destroyed the Cleric has an absolute limit on the number they can control (4HD per level) and these undead can be turned or even better rebuked and commanded by the enemy so they can be a liability as well as an aid to the party. As the skeletons come from a spell/class ability I do not see any reason to reduce the party XP. Agreed, no xp reduction.
Morka 02-23-04, 10:40 AM	Animate Dead is just as spell, but what a powerful spell! :smirk: However, taking care of those skeletons should really hard. If it is known that your necromancer travel along with 4 ogre skeletons, he shall not be welcomed in many inn, and exalted good cleric might attack him on sight. (While an average evil character isn't attacked until he commits a crime).
DM Zoc 02-23-04, 10:43 AM	Where would the EXP go? I mean, unless these are special undead that start taking class levels.... Other than that, they would just make the challenges less difficult, effectively raising the party level (so less EXP unless they fight harder things).
Autosponge 02-23-04, 12:31 PM	As the DMG suggests, drop the EL of the encounter 1-2 points. But you also need to make the party start paying for this in other ways (i.e., have them hunted by righteous undead hunter NPCs). Otherwise you're just permitting them to abuse the system.
Scion of Coldshard 02-23-04, 02:52 PM	I have seen a question on another thread about whether or not animate dead spells are too powerful. But I just dont see it, you said that these guys make the encounters significantly easier, and that just seems odd somehow ;) Can you perhaps post the stats of these guys up? That would make it easier for me to see what is going on exactly. Mainly it just seems that a decent fireball should be able to fry them without much of a problem (low hp, low reflex saves = redead undead). Along with the material component cost (not exactly cheap early on) it just doesnt seem that bad. As for the topic at hand though, no exp change, no CR change, no real ECL change to effect exp indirectly. The character is just useing class abilities, just like you shouldnt reduce exp if the mage casts fireball on a group of enemies or if the fighter gets to whirlwind attack. Good tactics should not reduce the exp gain.
Riznar 02-23-04, 03:02 PM	My guess is that you've not set them up against many spellcasters. Undead fall fast to things like fireball. I wouldn't dock them EXP, since the cleric already paid for them with GP, would you dock EXP if the fighter bought a new sword? Simply changeup the encounters a bit so that the skeletons aren't always rocks to your NPCs scissors.
Palin the Wizard 02-23-04, 03:14 PM	Just to get one thing straight: Animate Dead does not, in fact, summon creatures. Skeletons and zombies created by that spell are permanent--not summoned. The closest thing you can relate it to is a Golem. But I wouldn't dock EXP if a party used either. They are tools, just like a magical item. Would you dock EXP if your party got hold of a Wand of Fireball at a point where it would be a great advantage?
NinjaHedge 02-23-04, 06:28 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge As the DMG suggests, drop the EL of the encounter 1-2 points. But you also need to make the party start paying for this in other ways (i.e., have them hunted by righteous undead hunter NPCs). Otherwise you're just permitting them to abuse the system. the DMG does not suggest you drop the EL for things that your players do. The DMG suggests you lower the EL anytime the creatures or placement of the creatures changes the difficulty of an encounter. Example: If goblins are in balloons dropping rocks, the EL is higher. If the players make a balloon and drop rocks on goblins, the EL is not lowered. If the goblins are sick when the players attack, the goblins EL is lower. If the players get sick because they sleep in their armor, the EL is not higher.
Lodrin 02-23-04, 09:58 PM	If you turn ogres into skeletons, they have 26hp (4d12), damage reduction of 5/bludgeon, +7 attack, deal 2d8+7 damage, and have 10 feet reach (AOO's everywhere) with the typical undead immunities (immune cold, con dmg, poison, etc). Besides the obvious ability to be turned, their only weakness is low AC (13) Anyways, they are CR2. 4 of them are the equivalent of a CR6 encounter. To a 5th level party, that's an incredible asset. That's like having a level 6 npc in your group that doesn't need a cut of the treasure or mind's dying. And since the cleric is evil, he can spontaneously cast inflict spells to heal them back up. Your typical cr5/cr6 encounters aren't going to be able to dish out enough damage to drop those ogres... unless they are spell casters, and spell casters need to win the initiative, or those 4 ogres are going to demolish you. Should they do win initiative, anything that will AE kill those ogres, will more then likely AE kill the party as well. I just don't see the difference between skeletons that take verbal orders, and going down to a tavern and recruiting other adventurers to be your cannon fodder. They follow you around, and do what they are told. They aren't just a class ability. The class ability is making the undead. I wouldn't dock the party for using a wand of fireball or a brand new sword, but if they found a wand of fireball or a brand new sword, and then recruited some guy at a tavern to use it every fight, you WOULD dock the party's xp for that, wouldn't you? Someone else is doing the work for you and it doesn't require any effort to control the skeletons. Those adventurers would get a cut of the xp because they are doing the work, not because they are intelligent. Intelligence isn't relevent. Sure, undead do have weaknesses, but most of my adventures are status quo. If the party is traveling through a forest killing ogres and trolls I'm not going to put a cleric of pelor there just because of his skeletons ;p As a side note, some of the ogres did die, but as the gets more levels he'll be able to make bigger and more dangerous undead.
Scion of Coldshard 02-23-04, 10:19 PM	But they do take resources to make and use, and to keep for that matter. Plus they 'are' a class feature. Not a terribly powerful one at that, certainly no more powerful than a well placed summon monster. Looks like your numbers are pretty much the same as what I came up with, although the ac should probably be lower (10 base, -1 size, +2 natural = 11, they are not proficient in any armors) Their saves are horrible, any sort of area effect spells will destroy them wholesale. Plus, other clerics will take them over or destroy them easily. As the characters go up in power the undead will fall farther and farther behind, even by getting new stronger ones. In addition to that, I disagree with the 4 CR 2's being equivalent to a CR 6 really. The books say that this is a good guide, but it fails to take into account so many things and rounds off so many errors as to be useless most of the time. A single 6th level character should be able to take out these guys fairly easily, so long as they actually do intelligent things. It is a major difference though between hireing someone and animating the undead. The undead are animated and under the control of one of your pc's, via a class abilty. For the most part they are pretty weak, or at least incredibly succeptible to almost anything. Strong? Sure, dangerous? yeah. But worth losing exp over because of their use? No. The books are very clear on this score, they will not change the exp at all. It is just a good way to go for some groups, there are other 'exploits' (as someone put it) for people of any alignment. Some tactics that the pc's can use are better than others, some are better in more situations others in smaller. These guys are pure melee but have a wide range of weaknesses. While it is a good tactic it will be worth less and less as the game progresses. Let them live a little now, but remember that these guys are pushovers. One npc with any sort of area attack kills lots of prep spells and several hundred gp, which matters at theses levels especially. If the pc's are useing spells to keep these guys alive then they are still burning party resources, so it all works out. Remember, not all battles start within 30'. These guys are used for distraction and as speed bumps. Any 5th level fighter type should be able to make it through one or two of these guys every round. Sure if they hit him he'll be hurt, but their Attack bonus isnt incredible, they have no saves and no intelligence, they are just bodies to be used. So the opponents have to use valid tactics to get rid of them (a really good one is setting them on fire, they will burn until they die or the character takes time out to put them out or guide them through putting themselves out.. with no intelligence and no sense of selfpreservation they are very succeptible.. and this is a cheap, easy tactic to take out big brutes)
Halzmar_of_Geoff 02-23-04, 11:38 PM	Feats are class ability too. Leadership is a feat. If you'd reduce XP for followers doing the PC's work then feel free to dock the players XP. I would dock the XP if it became an issue. However killing the ogre skeletons should solve things just as easily. They aren't that tough. If that doesn't work feel free to kill the character he is an evil necromancer - they are sword fodder in most campaigns - killed by intrepid adventures all the time. Jeez after the characters get to a certain level I don't even bother giving them names just call them necromancer one, necromancer two, ect.