Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 10-18-07, 11:49 PM	There is a ninth level wizard in the party who constantly spams Animate Undead. Yes he is following all of the rules for it, so it's completely legal, but it's just frustrating because he's constantly creating new undead from things they've killed. Also he bought Gauntlets of Inflict Light Wounds to constantly heal his undead. They are use activated, unlimited uses per day, and according to pg 285 of the DMG, cost an astounding 6,000gp: Spell level (1) x caster level (3 for craft wondrous item) x 2,000gp (use activated) = 6,000gp. This is ridiculous, but seemingly totally legal. Any suggestions for how I should deal with this? (One downfall of the character is that, at ninth level, he only has 20-some HP).
zeratulcraft 10-19-07, 12:00 AM	Disallow custom creation? That'd settle it pretty much I reckon, or alternatively, run a good/neutral only, falling to evil (which Animate Dead WILL do), results in NPC-ism.
Alter_Boy 10-19-07, 12:22 AM	Is it warping combat? Do those zombies make that much difference? If so, sprinkle in some encounters where they are uneffective. Fighting Good clerics, for example. Of course, you could also roleplay NPC revulsion at the Party of the Walking Dead. Some nasty rumours might start spreading...
Johngalt137 10-19-07, 12:38 AM	There is a ninth level wizard in the party who constantly spams Animate Undead. Yes he is following all of the rules for it, so it's completely legal, but it's just frustrating because he's constantly creating new undead from things they've killed. Also he bought Gauntlets of Inflict Light Wounds to constantly heal his undead. They are use activated, unlimited uses per day, and according to pg 285 of the DMG, cost an astounding 6,000gp: Spell level (1) x caster level (3 for craft wondrous item) x 2,000gp (use activated) = 6,000gp. This is ridiculous, but seemingly totally legal. Any suggestions for how I should deal with this? (One downfall of the character is that, at ninth level, he only has 20-some HP). That item is broken. Healing items should not be that cheap. Would use activated cure minor wounds gauntlets ever make sense (3000 GP to cure all of the parties wounds between every encounter). The item is flatly imbalanced. It is similar to allowing a sword of unlimited true striking into the game: spell level (1) x caster level (5 for craft magic arms and armor item) x 2000 GP (use activated) = 6000 gp. The DM needs to make judgement calls about the item before it comes into play the guidelines for custom item creation are just ballpark estimates, they are intended to find somewhere to start with an item price, then through careful judgement of the DM is the final price come up with.
Killydd 10-19-07, 12:49 AM	I can just imagine the results when an evil cleric Commands the undead instead. Plus, I imagine that all of those onyx gems get expensive, especially if they start becoming in limited supply. the Hide from Undead spell could also reduce the effects of the undead for a short time. Really, any tactic that you have ever seen used against an enemy necromancer is fair game here.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-19-07, 01:06 AM	How about just saying no? Seriously, it's not even a problem, just don't let him.
Endarrion 10-19-07, 08:24 AM	Yeah, I'm really thinking that the gauntlets are overpowered, although apparently legal. I figured I could amp up the challenges to compensate for the undead until an evil cleric comes along to ruin his day for a little while.
canofbread 10-19-07, 08:38 AM	Drop a fireball :D or if you can find it that corpse explosion spell. I *think* those undead qualify.
deathbane 10-19-07, 09:00 AM	The gauntlet should cost more because it is allowing anyone to use a cleric's spells. Sometimes you have to overlook the DMG's price guidelines. He has to take time to cast the spell to make them alive again, and he needs a standard action to heal them. That should make him less useful because he is not casting spells at that time. It seems he has to much free time. You should bring enough monsters so that wasting time animating one will hurt the party. Numerous smaller CR creatures are more difficult than a few higher level ones. Telling someone they can't use a legal tactic(as long as it is not some infinite loophole) is not a good idea. It will just build resentment. Every character has a weakness, and it will make you a better DM by finding it, than by just houseruling against it. You could also have a cleric take over the undead that he creates and use them against him.
Nephlite 10-19-07, 09:02 AM	There is a ninth level wizard in the party who constantly spams Animate Undead. Yes he is following all of the rules for it, so it's completely legal, but it's just frustrating because he's constantly creating new undead from things they've killed. Also he bought Gauntlets of Inflict Light Wounds to constantly heal his undead. They are use activated, unlimited uses per day, and according to pg 285 of the DMG, cost an astounding 6,000gp: Spell level (1) x caster level (3 for craft wondrous item) x 2,000gp (use activated) = 6,000gp. This is ridiculous, but seemingly totally legal. Any suggestions for how I should deal with this? (One downfall of the character is that, at ninth level, he only has 20-some HP). You do remember that at will is charges =100/day, it says price it that way. So 100/5=x20. 6K x20=120, 000 gp. That is the true price.
aotrscommander 10-19-07, 09:06 AM	As someone playing a Pale Master and getting to spam Animate Dead for free (unlike regular Animate Dead, I don't have to pay 25gp of onyx for every HD), I would first ask: what's the problem? Animate Dead is a great way to make quite expensive chaff (unless you're a Pale Master). Unless you're using crap loads of monsters rather than humanoids as enemies, regular skeletons and zombies, even pumped the hell up with all the Corpse Crafter feats, rapidly decrease in usefulness by that level (incidently, the same level my Pale Master is). Unless, of course, they have very high base stats. Remember, too, he can't animate anything with 20HD or more. Your necromancer also has the problem of not upsetting the local populace. Even if necromancy is not inherently evil (not to side-track this debate on that oft-argued trail) it doesn't usually go down well. (My Pale Master relies on his portable hole to store his humanoid skeletons in for easy and problem free transport!) So, check list. 1) Are you using a high proportion of monster encounters? If so, add a more humanoid encounters and let attrition do it's work. 2) Area effect spells - not to mention the numerous anti-Undead spells and 'helpful' clerics turning (or your side or theirs) - have a nasty tendancy to reduce your animated undead to rubble very fast. 3) Skeletons are more vulnerable, but remember that if he's using the more durable zombies, he's effectively halving the parties' movement speeds since they can't make double moves. 4) Is he paying for the material components (i.e 25gp of onyx per HD)? Is it possible he could run out and not be able to buy any more for a while (after all, not every village is going to have crap loads on onyx stones). 5) That item is definately not the right price. Remember that pricing magic items is more of an art than a science and that the guidelines are very loose. I'd certainly say that item should be at least ten times as expensive, if not more.
Absynthe_minded21 10-19-07, 09:12 AM	My character in a friend's campaign is an animate dead spamming priest, so my advice to stop (or at least hinder) your own is thus. The first thing you should do is to read the zombie and skeleton entries in the MM. Then read the animate dead entry. (I just realized that this sounds rude, I don't mean it to!) You cannot make a zombie out of a creature with a base HD higher then 10. Skeletons can go up to 20, but aren't nearly as powerful. A cleric can only animate twice his caster level or lower per casting and control four times his caster level or lower at a time. If he's level 9 start throwing 11HD monsters at the party. Not only will he have to burn a casting for each individual skeleton, he will never be able to control more then three at a time. Beef up your encounters with constructs, traps (unintelligent undead autofail savings throws) cleric types, and things that no right minded necromancer would want as a minion. Like beholders, since a zombie beholder would lose all of it's eye attacks and the ability to fly. Throw in the occasional humanoid, but never in enough numbers to make it worth the trouble of animating them.
kuonji 10-19-07, 10:04 AM	Mindless undead also tend to do very poorly against simple illusion spells.
Phrennzy 10-19-07, 10:05 AM	What type of creature is he animating? What HD? One thing to keep in mind is that enemies are not going to target his zombie/skeleton fighters - they are going to target him. The animated dead respond to his spoken commands, which makes him obviously the controller. Take him out and the undead are useless. Also, how often is he casting this - it's a 4th level spell - how many of those does he have? A word of caution - do not use these tactics all at once or very often, or the player will resent being singled out. Animating the bodies of your vanquished foes is a valid, although gruesome, tactic. I can't believe it adds that much to his firepower.
deathbane 10-19-07, 10:09 AM	You do remember that at will is charges =100/day, it says price it that way. So 100/5=x20. 6K x20=120, 000 gp. That is the true price. That is only if the spell has an XP cost, or material component. On page 284 everything is multiplied by 50, which represents 50 charges per day. If it an item has 100 charges then the price doubles. You(the OP) should also consider that he is effectively casting a spell not on his class list. I might tag him another 1500-3000 gold for that. It only heals then for 1d8+3. That should not even matter at ninth level.
Vharuck 10-19-07, 10:10 AM	You know those magic item pricing rules? No you don't. Those are guidelines. To be used as a last resort. First you compare to existing items. Then you use the generic guidelines. And you always alter the price as is necessary. The Player's Handbook is written in exact rules because players could abuse a lack of rules. The Dungeon Master's Guide is not written in exact rules because the DM personally gains nothing by having free reign.
Phrennzy 10-19-07, 10:13 AM	The first thing you should do is to read the zombie and skeleton entries in the MM. Then read the animate dead entry. (I just realized that this sounds rude, I don't mean it to!) You cannot make a zombie out of a creature with a base HD higher then 10. Skeletons can go up to 20, but aren't nearly as powerful. This is really good advice. Know the spell and the limitations the creatures have. The HD limit is a good one. traps (unintelligent undead autofail savings throws) Huh? I don't think this is correct - where do you get this from? Like beholders, since a zombie beholder would lose all of it's eye attacks and the ability to fly. It would lose it's eye attacks, but retain the ability to fly, just at a maneuverability of clumsy. You could also send zombies & skeletons against the party, since once they are defeated, they cannot be reanimated.
TelinArtho 10-19-07, 10:22 AM	I don't see how any regular caster of animate dead is going to "spam" it during combat. The material component requires having a (as in one) 25gp onyx per HD of the creature to be created. More importantly - this onyx needs to be placed into the mouth of the creature to be created. So either he is, in general, using onyxs that are too big (in order to guarantee it is big enough for the spell) or he has far too much "knowledge" of the creatures' HD. For instance, if you send a dire wolf up against him - does he automatically pull out the exactly correct size onyx (and from where)? If he is using meta-gamed information - switch things up on him. Give the creatures a couple of extra HD. In the end though - it sounds like he has too much money at his disposal if he has a near-limitless supply of onyxs to work with...
deathbane 10-19-07, 10:39 AM	I don't see how any regular caster of animate dead is going to "spam" it during combat. The material component requires having a (as in one) 25gp onyx per HD of the creature to be created. More importantly - this onyx needs to be placed into the mouth of the creature to be created. So either he is, in general, using onyxs that are too big (in order to guarantee it is big enough for the spell) or he has far too much "knowledge" of the creatures' HD. For instance, if you send a dire wolf up against him - does he automatically pull out the exactly correct size onyx (and from where)? If he is using meta-gamed information - switch things up on him. Give the creatures a couple of extra HD. In the end though - it sounds like he has too much money at his disposal if he has a near-limitless supply of onyxs to work with... I don't think WotC was think about the size thing when they made the spell. They just chose oynx, and gave it a price to stop overuse of the spell. Most people just allow the spell to work as long as the oynx is the right price. The spell soul bind says creatures can be researched even though they don't know what HD are, and while I doubt every creature will have been researched by the wizard it is feasible to allow a knowledge check for weaker ones. As for the stronger ones, the research thing is never defined. That is up to the DM to decide that. I would probably say that if a player knew a certain enemy was coming he could do a research to know if he could buy an onyx that would be valuable enough for that enemy. I don't have a suggestion for the research because none of my players have tried to use the spell. He might have too much money, and he also could have been smart enough to buy them before he could even cast the spell. That is what I did for my dreadnecro even though I never got to use them.
wordserpent 10-19-07, 11:13 AM	When the PC's beat those monsters who are to be animated, what is left of the bodies? More precisely, what quality zombie are you going to make out of a body that had it's head and left arm hacked off? What I think you should do is subtract the creatures former hp from whatever you roll as the new zombies hit points, this will add a more realistic feel to the PC's cut-up, burnt, jellified animated corpses.
deathbane 10-19-07, 11:39 AM	When the PC's beat those monsters who are to be animated, what is left of the bodies? More precisely, what quality zombie are you going to make out of a body that had it's head and left arm hacked off? What I think you should do is subtract the creatures former hp from whatever you roll as the new zombies hit points, this will add a more realistic feel to the PC's cut-up, burnt, jellified animated corpses. Most DM's just give the 6 points(half of 12) per HD, instead of rolling, and the damage done before they were animated does not affect that. It is just the same as if you revived someone who had an arm cutoff. They still get the same amount of hp that the spell gives them. A mutilated zombie may not be as effective, but they don't get full attack options anyway so it won't matter to much. If the player was smart he would stop wasting those onyx. He should get one really good monster and keep it around. That way he could do things that are useful and not heal undead.
deathbane 10-19-07, 11:40 AM	To the OP: Describe one of the battles. I think it is easier to help if you give us your tactics.
Grumman 10-19-07, 11:54 AM	You do remember that at will is charges =100/day, it says price it that way. No, it doesn't. Magic items with unlimited charges are priced as if they had 100 charges. Not 100 charges/day. To the OP: Never allow custom magic items except for potions, scrolls, staves and wands, unless you know exactly what you're doing. There's a reason that other custom magic items are a variant rule.
Death-Knight 10-19-07, 12:32 PM	couple of ideas 1.But them against a deathnight, steal the undead! 2.Is there any paladins in the group? if yes, remind him, undead BAD, him GOOD!!! oh, and undead aren't so good in a Druids point of view. 3.Walk them into a room with 100 level 10 paladins 4.Put them in a place with some kind of anti-undead! 5.Stick a Balor in front of them! Smash the undead, and decapitate the sorcerer!! Try them all!!! well, that would be hard....
Absynthe_minded21 10-19-07, 01:14 PM	This is really good advice. Know the spell and the limitations the creatures have. The HD limit is a good one. Huh? I don't think this is correct - where do you get this from? It would lose it's eye attacks, but retain the ability to fly, just at a maneuverability of clumsy. You could also send zombies & skeletons against the party, since once they are defeated, they cannot be reanimated. It just makes sense that since mindless undead follow orders to the letter they only react to things that are covered by those orders. If told to open a door a zombie will open the door and then stand there awaiting more orders while a trap goes off in it's face. If ad hoc rules won't fly in your campaign however the MM zombie template also has a listing of the ratings zombies get to their base saves and most of them are pitifully low. While most flying creatures retain thier flight (due to having zombie wings) the zombie template says that a zombie loses any special quality that doesn't increase it's melee or ranged attack damage. On beholders flight is listed as a special quality. Undead are good to pit up against an undead user, but so are animated plants, elementals, oozes, cockatrices (only dangerous because of an ability they lose if animated) fish, chokers (if he's making skeletons, their arms are boneless) lycanthropes, gargoyles, grimlocks (which are slightless and therefor you might rule lose the ability to find their way around when animated), swarms (since he won't be carrying enough onyx to put one in the mouth of every member of the swarm) and most anything that you can declare melts into a puddle upon death.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-19-07, 01:20 PM	You can animate a swarm. And you don't need "enough onyx to put in the mouth of everything in the swarm", you need 50gp worth of onyx per hit die. The onyx isn't calculated by mouth, it's calculated by hit dice. Seriously though, if you're going to make it that hard to animate undead, just say "I don't allow my players to animate the dead". It's a lot more fair and reasonable than allowing them to create characters based around animating the undead then raping them for it.
Phrennzy 10-19-07, 04:26 PM	It just makes sense that since mindless undead follow orders to the letter they only react to things that are covered by those orders. If told to open a door a zombie will open the door and then stand there awaiting more orders while a trap goes off in it's face. If ad hoc rules won't fly in your campaign however the MM zombie template also has a listing of the ratings zombies get to their base saves and most of them are pitifully low. I see what you are saying. If the wizard told the zombies to "Follow me!" and then charged forward and then fell into a pit, the zombies would follow. If told to bash down a door, and door was protected by a resetting Glyph of Warding, the zombie would continue to hit the door, regardless of the glyph blowing up in its face again and again. But technically, with each firing, it would get the normal save. But, like you said, those saves aren't any good. While most flying creatures retain thier flight (due to having zombie wings) the zombie template says that a zombie loses any special quality that doesn't increase it's melee or ranged attack damage. On beholders flight is listed as a special quality. SRD: Special Qualities A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A zombie gains the following special quality. See, I read that part about losing most special qualities. They really should cut that out completely, as it is confusing. Besides, a flying beholder zombie is cool. If you let me have a flying beholder zombie, I will let you take away it's saving throws.
Archon-John 10-19-07, 05:08 PM	Custom magic item creation rules are completely busted. A pious templar can make the equivalent of Amulets of Nat Armor +2 for 1,000 gp. (Maybe 2,000 - I'm not looking at my book now) It's janky and should never be allowed. Also I believe that Undead are not affected by (most) illusion spells. One could also never allow the PCs into a town... ya know - because of the hoardes of undead following them? Have the constant undead stench continuously attract black dragons. (They like their meat to be a bit rotten). Make sure these dragons are more powerful than the group, so they'll have to sacrifice the undead minions. And remember, dragons are smart - they know who controls all the undead, and who to murder first if all they want is the undead. XD Just some helpful comments (I hope)
Endarrion 10-19-07, 07:35 PM	Thanks for the replies everyone! On the magic item: I'm going to disallow it. It's ridiculously powerful, should cost a helluva lot more than 6 grand, and ... yeah. It's well within my power as DM to just say, "No." Someone asked for tactics: I had a fire giant leading 2 bladerager trolls in one encounter. He had already animated the skeleton of a juvenile green dragon, so there was that. The two trolls snuck up on them from different sides, were caught, and the illusionist cast two illusory feasts, they failed their saves, and were basically helpless. Looking back, I handled that poorly. His owl familiar really makes sneaking up on them almost impossible. The fire giant came in, almost killed the illusionist with one fiery rock, and almost killed the shifter rogue in two hits (I missed four times). But yeah, the save or die (in effect anyway) spells really take a toll on the monsters. The DCs for his spells are high, and they haven't fought many things with high will saves, so that really works for them. They're about to go up against Thoon Mindflayers which should equal bad days. Thanks for all the advice again!
Absynthe_minded21 10-19-07, 08:55 PM	Besides, a flying beholder zombie is cool. If you let me have a flying beholder zombie, I will let you take away it's saving throws. Deal!
deathbane 10-19-07, 09:12 PM	Thanks for the replies everyone! On the magic item: I'm going to disallow it. It's ridiculously powerful, should cost a helluva lot more than 6 grand, and ... yeah. It's well within my power as DM to just say, "No." Someone asked for tactics: I had a fire giant leading 2 bladerager trolls in one encounter. He had already animated the skeleton of a juvenile green dragon, so there was that. The two trolls snuck up on them from different sides, were caught, and the illusionist cast two illusory feasts, they failed their saves, and were basically helpless. Looking back, I handled that poorly. His owl familiar really makes sneaking up on them almost impossible. The fire giant came in, almost killed the illusionist with one fiery rock, and almost killed the shifter rogue in two hits (I missed four times). But yeah, the save or die (in effect anyway) spells really take a toll on the monsters. The DCs for his spells are high, and they haven't fought many things with high will saves, so that really works for them. They're about to go up against Thoon Mindflayers which should equal bad days. Thanks for all the advice again! The item does 1d8+3 healing(11 at the most). I would rather any caster give someone 11 hp than actually cast a spell, which will more than likely do a lot more than 11 hp especially at level 9. He is gimping himself my playing an arcane necro that is not a DN. How is the now familiar that effective. The familiar is another weakness. If all he is doing is animating undead then get a cleric. They can take the undead away, and they can dispel the illusions(kills 2 birds with one stone). If you want to use an arcane caster just throw fireballs or any other spells that require reflex saves. The undead are done unless he gets lucky roll. If a troll can sneak up on them it can't be that hard. The illusionist should be causing more trouble than the necro. The only thing the undead are(should be) good for is giving the rogue flanking. I just reread the first post. How does he only have 20 hp? 4+(1x8)=12 assumes he roles all one's at level up time 2x9=18 assumes he has 14 con 30 HP I was supposed to be DMing right not, but schedule issues came up. Send me the party list. I will throw something together(ok, so I'm bored). Just give me their favorite tactic and their class. I also need an encounter level limit.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 01:02 AM	Really, you should be giving a sigh of relief if Animate Dead is the most powerful tactic that your players are using against you. I'd allow it and not shoot my player down for sparing me the problems of Polymorph etc. As for the whole gauntlet thing, this isn't anything new at all - the dread necromancer, which is basically the warmage of animate dead, basically gets inflict light wounds at will as a class ability. Wizards knew what they were getting into when they made the ability, free heals for the huge undead army that the dread necromancer excels at coming up with, and yet the class has nothing on an IOT7V
Krusk 10-20-07, 01:37 AM	Hes got loads of unintelligent undead walking around? Easy fix. Command undead, lvl 2 wizard spell. Personally when playing a wizard i always prepare one a day minimum, unless i know we are fighting an over ammount of undead. If they encounter a necromancer, he might even prepare more. Basically on the wizards first round he steals the biggest thing the cleric has animated, and then tells it to attack the physically weakest party member, problem solved. If I saw how easy it was for even one round that thing to slip out of his control and almost kill me I would generally demand the guy get rid of it. Also a few questions. No one in the party objects to traveling with rotting corpses? Where does he store them when the party attempts to enter a town? NPC's don't object to animated corpses of sentient beings? THe party does not object to animating the corpse of a sentient being? There is no druid/palidin in the party, again they will probably object to this act. Because its clearly evil or because its an abomination of nature. Or you could just explain that its a pain in the butt, and youd rather they stop doing it.
ravenshrike 10-20-07, 01:50 AM	That item is broken. Healing items should not be that cheap. Would use activated cure minor wounds gauntlets ever make sense (3000 GP to cure all of the parties wounds between every encounter). The item is flatly imbalanced. It is similar to allowing a sword of unlimited true striking into the game: spell level (1) x caster level (5 for craft magic arms and armor item) x 2000 GP (use activated) = 6000 gp. The DM needs to make judgement calls about the item before it comes into play the guidelines for custom item creation are just ballpark estimates, they are intended to find somewhere to start with an item price, then through careful judgement of the DM is the final price come up with. We had this discussion in another thread. If you are using the standard D&D treasure tables, you on average will have an allowance of about 100gp per PC over the wealth by levels limits also in the DMG from 1st to 2nd level. This amount increases as you go up in level. There is a sidebar that notes this. Assuming you have a party of four, that means you could get a wand of CMinW by 2nd level, thus giving you 50 "free" hitpoints spread among the party. If you manage to take more than 50 points of damage between 2nd and third level you are really damned unlucky. This means that hitpoint healing out of combat is essentially free after the 1st level(which is always the most unstable anyway). Thus, items of infinite low-level healing are not in any real meaningful way broken(except when you consider their ramifications outside of the adventuring schtick).
Nephlite 10-20-07, 09:35 AM	Custom magic item creation rules are completely busted. A pious templar can make the equivalent of Amulets of Nat Armor +2 for 1,000 gp. (Maybe 2,000 - I'm not looking at my book now) The NA or Abnility bonus items don't depend on item's spell level. They depend on the guidelines so no unless Pious dudes have a Artificer cost down ability: it will cost 4K to make the +2 NA amulet (since crafting costs 1/2).
wordserpent 10-20-07, 10:17 AM	A flying Zombie beholder is nice, but how much more amusing would a Rolling Zombie Beholder be? To the OP. You mentioned that the PC animated a dragon's skeleton? Are you using the spell rules correctly? Not to question your DMing or anything but sometimes a DM is too busy to keep track of what every spell in his game can do. I think that if you just arbitrarily rule "You can't do that!" you might be unecissarliy harsh and unreasonable. The must be numerous ways to handle this problem other than "No, you can't do that because I said so." and "You meet Fifty Lawful good clerics and your zombies disintigrate.", ect. Double check to make sure that he is not animating or controlling more HD worth of undead than his spell allows. If you find a reasonable in-game solution then your players will respect you all the more. As for the Magic Gloves of inflict wounds, You can always make the item cursed. A curse is on the item because the creator made a mistake at some critial point. The curse could be something like; each time the PC uses the item he must make a Fort save (Because wizards are so good at fort saves) or the item affects the user instead of the target. But the item does seem a bit overpowered so you would not be unreasonable by disallowing it in the game. Good luck.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 12:34 PM	Is it just me or is this a two-page thread nearly entirely composed of DMs posting about how to shut down a player who really isn't doing anything extraordinary at all? Idk, it's just that most of the suggestions (somebody strolls along and controls undead your undead, armies of clerics turn your undead, rocks fall and your undead die more or less) would get the "OMG TYRANT DM" response from a lot of players, myself included!
Endarrion 10-20-07, 04:42 PM	It's not the most powerful tactic he's employing, just an annoying one. Like I said, it's all the effectively save-or-die spells that are powerful tactics (shadow well especially). I'm not really worried about it or anything, or complaining really, I just didn't know how to keep challenging them effectively when the wizard keeps animating creatures with more hitdice than they have (the dragon has 14, they're all 9th level). While the skeletons and zombies aren't that powerful, they still absorb lots of damage from the baddies they fight, and not every monster will know to go around the skeletons and go after the wizard. But anyway, I know how I'll handle it now, so thanks for all the suggestions :) This thread can die unless there's some relevant debate on the subject going on.
Senevri 10-20-07, 05:02 PM	Consider yourself lucky it's not a Dread Necro/Palemaster. Free Animate Dead + unlimited healing at level 1. Frankly, either tell the player "Congrats, you win -- I don't want you to spam undead" Or, deal. The stuff he creates is by rule WEAK weak weak weak.
Khadmus 10-20-07, 05:10 PM	We had this discussion in another thread. If you are using the standard D&D treasure tables, you on average will have an allowance of about 100gp per PC over the wealth by levels limits also in the DMG from 1st to 2nd level. This amount increases as you go up in level. There is a sidebar that notes this. Assuming you have a party of four, that means you could get a wand of CMinW by 2nd level, thus giving you 50 "free" hitpoints spread among the party. If you manage to take more than 50 points of damage between 2nd and third level you are really damned unlucky. This means that hitpoint healing out of combat is essentially free after the 1st level(which is always the most unstable anyway). Thus, items of infinite low-level healing are not in any real meaningful way broken(except when you consider their ramifications outside of the adventuring schtick). ????:confused: What are you talking about?
Necroramo 10-20-07, 06:02 PM	Okay, he's animating a 14 HD dragon, so that makes a... CR 6 skeleton. And he can only animate another 4 HD of undead, which won't do much at all. I'm jumping out of my skin already.
ravenshrike 10-20-07, 06:40 PM	????:confused: What are you talking about? Hmm, I don't have my DMG on me, but if you read through there's a sidebar about it. Essentially the treasure tables give you an increasing amount over the WbL table as you go along. The sidebar noted this is money meant to be spent on consumables(wands, potions, alch fire etc.. etc..). Now, if the party is smart, they can allocate that money strictly to healing items(notably wands of vigor and clw). This means that they will have free OoC healing as long as someone has one level of cleric, druid, ranger, favored soul, or bard(or has UMD). Thusly, an item that can perform low-level healing for an infinite number of standard action uses, as long as you cut back on the consumables allowance built in to the treasure tables, isn't outside the boundaries of what D&D was designed around.
Endarrion 10-20-07, 08:33 PM	Okay, he's animating a 14 HD dragon, so that makes a... CR 6 skeleton. And he can only animate another 4 HD of undead, which won't do much at all. I'm jumping out of my skin already. Actually, he can control 4 times his HD, which is 36.
Necroramo 10-20-07, 10:26 PM	Whoops, was thinking of the rebuke function still, that's just another CR 6 and some magic missile fodder.... *shrugs*
Endarrion 10-20-07, 10:31 PM	I'm not upset that he is using this spell. I just didn't know how to more effectively challenge them. I'm not angry and I don't think the spell or the character is overpowered. I know they're just "magic missile fodder," but sometimes, there are no magic missiles, or clerics, or wizards, etc. That's why I came here. I have my answers and am quite satisfied that I have little to worry about.
Absynthe_minded21 10-20-07, 11:30 PM	Whoops, was thinking of the rebuke function still, that's just another CR 6 and some magic missile fodder.... *shrugs* The CR system is entirely unbalanced. It functions almost as if WotC just randomly assigned CRs. Look at the oger mage CR 8 (and with only 37hp easily one shotted by a character of that level) being two levels above the dragon skellie he should be able to stomp it into the ground, however the dragon has 91 hp (more then twice as many) is immune to nearly all of the oger's spells, has a higher base attack bonus, and higher physical damage. Oh, and it won't run away when reaching half hit dice. That CR 6 skellie could take on two or possibly even three monsters with a higher CR then it's own. Instead the fight would end with three oger mages running away to hide.
Shadow_Viper 10-20-07, 11:39 PM	IOT7V ????? :confused:
Rood_Inverse 10-21-07, 08:37 PM	"Initiate of the 7 Veils" I think it's out of one of the Complete series. I don't know which, though.
HCL 10-21-07, 09:20 PM	have there be a drow cleric with those mindflayers
Mejdrich 10-21-07, 11:36 PM	Ugh. It looks like I'm coming late to this discussion. Well, here's my .02 Is your necro player doing anything that a druid of equal level wouldn't be doing much better? Raising dead has limitations and weaknesses, as people have already pointed out, not to mention the RP difficulties he's picking up. I think you can play this one straight without bring out DM fiat. As for the magic item, I think you should make it clear that custom magic items need a DM 'ok', however I caution against just flat disallowing it because it works so damn well. If a monk wanted the same item to add a 1d6 to unarmed damage, would that be munchkined? (it's actually prices about right, compared to, say, a flaming weapon) Consider that healing potions are common, but negative-energy potions don't exist. He needs some way to heal his guys. If I was in your shoes, I'd tell him he could have it for 1,200 gps, but it only works 3/day. And there was only one in stock. ;) Good luck!
Count Arioch the 28th 10-23-07, 04:34 PM	If I was in your shoes, I'd tell him he could have it for 1,200 gps, but it only works 3/day. And there was only one in stock. ;) And how is that superior than just saying "I don't allow PCs to animate the dead." Seriously, it's not a big deal to say that.
deathbane 10-23-07, 06:33 PM	The DM/OP had a player who was so bad at optimization he only had 20 hp at level 9, and did not know enough to be a cleric or DN if he wants to animate undead. I think he has made his decision, but instead of gimping the player he should have received more strategy help, because if a character that weak is giving him trouble I wonder what he will do when the player has to focus his attention on useful spells that are are empowered and quickened, or my personal favorite, disintegrate. 22d6 is a lot of damage for a caster to take.
Endarrion 10-23-07, 06:36 PM	I do not = bad strategist. I = unexperienced DM who is unfamiliar with casters because I like melee characters. Besides that, the wizard does NOT focus on animating undead. He just does it a lot. He is an illusionist and his illusory feast and shadow well spells have won more encounters for the party than all his animate dead spells. I was out of ideas for how to up challenges without killing them. I know what to do now. It is no longer a problem. A big "Thank you" to everyone who contributed :)
deathbane 10-23-07, 06:40 PM	I do not = bad strategist. I = unexperienced DM who is unfamiliar with casters because I like melee characters. Besides that, the wizard does NOT focus on animating undead. He just does it a lot. He is an illusionist and his illusory feast and shadow well spells have won more encounters for the party than all his animate dead spells. I was out of ideas for how to up challenges without killing them. I know what to do now. It is no longer a problem. A big "Thank you" to everyone who contributed :) Sorry to offend you. I was only saying you have may have issues dealing with casters. Happy gaming.