Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deven Firewalker 11-15-05, 12:54 PM	First of all let me start by saying I like anime. I love Vampire Hunter D, Ninja Scroll and Record of Lodoss Wars (any many more). But I can’t help but feel like my D&D game is getting cheated out of some great feel and story because of the players running anime characters. I love oriental adventures and when I starting working up the game (home brew campaign) I had the feel of the game like seven Samurai and Legend of the five rings. Honor is important along with death being very serious and character really being “real”. The first thing out of one of the players is “I am going to run a Ninja like a Naruto ninja,...is there any PrC that can shoot energy blasts....can I make up a PrC that is like a Naruto Ninja?” After that another player said he wanted a Samurai that could do some things that he had seen in an anime. I finely said what kind of game it was going to be and that is was not going to be high fantasy jumping to the moon, laser eyes, Ki blast nuke strikes etc. The players then moved into standard whining mode where they explained that they saw their characters in this high fantasy anime style and that the game would be lame unless they were more cool. (keep in mind that I am the youngest at the table at 22). This Oriental Adventure game is not the only time I have seen anime leek into the game. Monks that are like dragon ball Z, Knights that are like vampire hunter D etc. I just get sick of anime getting into the D&D game with almost no apologies. I know that D&D in 3ed has gone the way of anime in many ways but I just am not fond of the high fantasy game that is surfacing recently. Has any other DM ran into this problem and how have you dealt with it?
eudas 11-15-05, 01:05 PM	Lotus Wars? :) Perhaps you mean "Record of the Lodoss Wars". leek? leeks are vegetables. Perhaps you mean "leak". :) In any case, the one guy who wanted the blaster ninja can use Warlock from CA and Ninja from CV. Voila, blaster ninja. The other guy will just want to max out Jump and stuff, if you look on the CO boards you can get some pretty grasshopper-like jumpers. eudas
CzarGarrett 11-15-05, 01:14 PM	I'd say tough noogies to them. If there isn't a feat/PrC in one of the WotC books to do what they want, its not happening. I'll allow most WotC stuff in, so long as it fits. If they can't get it out of there, I wouldn't allow it. Anime as the basis for a character is fine, as is any source, so long as the player does not want to make THAT character.
weasel fierce 11-15-05, 01:15 PM	Tell them to buy Exalted, and play that.
lifespeed 11-15-05, 01:17 PM	If you don't want to run an anime style game, tell them that, and either they have to deal with it or quit. Tell them that D&D is the wrong system to run that kind of game. Like Weasel said, play Exalted, as it's exactly that kind of game. D&D would only make things very very hard.
Xanthia 11-15-05, 01:47 PM	He has brought (yet another) underage girl to learn to play D&D at his sessions. Unlike the rest of them, this one is an anime freak/artist. So every character concept is based around whatever scantily-clad, busty-yet-skinny anime girl she scribbled on the back of her blank character sheet five minutes before the session. It doesn't matter what stats her character has; when you ask her for a character description, she says, "Her name is (insert Japanese name here) and she looks like this (points to drawing on the back of the character sheet)". Everyone else gets annoyed by it, one player even going so far as to say "I wish you'd stop drawing porn at sessions". Me personally? I just ignore it. Last time she mumbled a japanese name (it sounded like "Happy"), I just called her character "Happy". When she introduced her character by showing the picture, I ignored the sheet by drawing my gaze in a rulebook and said, "You still haven't answered my question; what does your character look like?" Sure, I may own over 65 DVDs and VHS tapes full of anime, and collect wallscrolls, manga, figurines and t-shirts, but I play D&D because I like fanatsy games, NOT because I want to play an anime character in a Fantasy world. There's anime roleplaying games for that. Just pretend you don't even know what anime is, and they will give up.
Bruunwald 11-15-05, 01:59 PM	My big complaint is how D&D went from illustrating elves as beautiful and elegant and exotic versions of humans, to turning every last one into a grotesque mutant form of Deedlit. I mean, I like Deed and all (from Lodoss, for those not in the know) but the anime idea of elves as being stretched in the face and with these donkey ears, is just silly and ugly. Sorry, but I don't envision Galadriel as Pinocchio with boobs. I envision her pretty much as... well, pretty much as Cate Blanchette. Mialee is supposed to be this idealized elf now. What a joke. Anyway, generally speaking, anime is in the game. It's ironic, since much anime is just a retelling of the writers' D&D games (like Lodoss itself). I don't mind a little. My wife is big into it. It's maybe easier for me because though my campaigns tend to be European in flavor, they usually include some mysterious figure or items from the East.
FolcoTook 11-15-05, 02:02 PM	It may be a case of the game that you want to run is not the game your players want to play. That happens sometimes. You just need to communicate what kind of game you want to do and then listen (really listen) to what kind of game they want to play in. Once you each know the other's expectations, see if there is a middle-ground everyone can be happy with. If there is, great - strive to achieve that. If not, then you (and maybe a sub-section of the players that want your style) probably need to find a different group to play with. -FT
Psychoticpsymon 11-15-05, 02:11 PM	Alright, this needs to be said more than anything else. Is it really that bad to have anime in D&D? Is it really that bad to have ANYTHING in D&D? DnD (Too lazy to reach for that ampersand) is ever-evolving, more things are being added all the time. Does it matter that your characters WANT to play these anime-like players? Tell them that they must write a coherent back story and they must research the classes that they want. DnD was made to be fun for all groups of people and everything centers around a LEVEL for that very reason. What is magic missile besides an energy blast? What is Monk's Unarmed strike but a Ki Attack? What is an epic character but a Naruto ninja, rolling 30s on his jump checks (assuming they roll low?) It's there, tell them that they have to WORK for it. Where would the characters they like so much be without working? Tell them that there is no way that they just woke up like that one day. What I'm trying to say is, how far away is DnD to any anime to begin with? Than ask yourself, which one probably came first?
Leewei 11-15-05, 02:15 PM	Evard's black tentacles, where are you now?
StormCrow42 11-15-05, 02:27 PM	Of course for anime style RPGs, you could check out Big Eyes, Small Mouth (BESM). There is even a D20 version of the rules.
Nobunaga Oda 11-15-05, 02:40 PM	Evard's black tentacles, where are you now? :p Ohohohoho...we have a pervert on this topic. Deedlit a grotesc elf? Nah. I liked the donkey ears...waaay better that deformed "Jiujitsued" ears. But if you think Deedlit is grotesc wait till you see Niele, a female elf from a brazilian manga called "Holy Avenger". Think about a cross of Deedlit, Naga and leather tapes.
Lincoln Hills 11-15-05, 05:07 PM	...I love Oriental Adventures and when I starting working up the game (home brew campaign) I had the feel of the game like seven Samurai and Legend of the five rings. Honor is important along with death being very serious and character really being “real”. The first thing out of one of the players is “I am going to run a Ninja like a Naruto ninja"... I finally said... it was not going to be high fantasy jumping to the moon, laser eyes, Ki blast nuke strikes etc... I just get sick of anime getting into the D&D game with almost no apologies. My counsel to you is: stick to your guns. I'm sure there are certain folks who will angrily respond to this post with, "Players should always get to play exactly the character they want, and you are worse than Hitler for refusing to allow them to fulfill their glorious vision! Also you eat babies." Those people are... how can I express this kindly?... I feel that those people are wrong. If you want to run a campaign in which samurai are feudal warriors struggling to live up to a nearly-unlivable code of ideals - rather than Superman with a sword - I congratulate you for making an effort. If the ninja clans in your campaign are skulking masters of disguise rather than... um... guys who can shoot lasers out of their hands... that's the way it is. You lay the guidelines. The people at your table are not required to like the campaign: it's even possible that they will, after only a week or two, demand a change to some other genre. I suggest that you bow to that suggestion if you must... but they really ought to give it, say, three games' worth of effort. If they end up enjoying the campaign in spite of the fact that they cannot blow up the Earth (even with a crit!) then your patience will be vindicated.
Xaktsaroth 11-15-05, 05:16 PM	I have no problem with anime characters in DnD, I even go far enough to actually make video game characters in DnD. One difference I keep running into though? I use the pre-existing rules when making the characters. I used the MM guide for monster making and various templates to make them. (Made Bowser awhile ago, in perfectly legal 3.5 DnD.) I find a lot of people who want to play the anime characters tend to follow the opposite, twist the rules to fit their idea of the character. And that's when I cry fowl. :P
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-15-05, 05:35 PM	This deserves an 'OH NOES!' Every game has a different feel to is. Me, personally, I do like having an anime feel to my game. But if you don't it has nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with your DMing. It doesn't matter if a player has a samurai classed character that can use Kenshin's technique. It doesn't matter if the monk class bears no resemblance to martial artists OR fighting monks. No, what matters is how you present the world and the feel of the game. And you know what? If you actually paid attention to anime and not just the stereotypes that the 'geek orthodox' coniptions both for and against, you'd realise that you would get incredibly hard pressed to find a feel, theme, or subject that doesn't have at least a japanese animation OVA based around it. So stop complaining and spend more time evaluating how you present your campaign.
Gimpy Saviour 11-15-05, 05:41 PM	It's easy to make a naruto template. I mean, all Naruto can really do is: Clone self Stunning blow Ki Strike Diamach Summon animal companion (toad) Of course he has his demon fox ability but you don't even have to touch that. Naruto himself rarely uses this ability because it corrupts him so you could pull it off without any hitches. Now, place that naruto build against another skilled build and Naruto gets owned. The easiest Naruto build to use would be Rock Lee. Of course, if you find that they like anime so much, make all your enemies giant tenticled sex obsessed hentai monsters... After the ninth raping in half an hour I think they would get sick of playing anime.
Gene2324 11-15-05, 05:44 PM	My counsel to you is: stick to your guns. I'm sure there are certain folks who will angrily respond to this post with, "Players should always get to play exactly the character they want, and you are worse than Hitler for refusing to allow them to fulfill their glorious vision! Also you eat babies." Those people are... how can I express this kindly?... I feel that those people are wrong. ^^^ AGREED! :D :rolleyes:
Nobunaga Oda 11-15-05, 05:54 PM	This deserves an 'OH NOES!' Every game has a different feel to is. Me, personally, I do like having an anime feel to my game. But if you don't it has nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with your DMing. It doesn't matter if a player has a samurai classed character that can use Kenshin's technique. It doesn't matter if the monk class bears no resemblance to martial artists OR fighting monks. No, what matters is how you present the world and the feel of the game. And you know what? If you actually paid attention to anime and not just the stereotypes that the 'geek orthodox' coniptions both for and against, you'd realise that you would get incredibly hard pressed to find a feel, theme, or subject that doesn't have at least a japanese animation OVA based around it. So stop complaining and spend more time evaluating how you present your campaign. I complety agree to this quote. You don´t want ninja trowing fire balls? Make a low-fantasy campaign. Not all anime have big breasted female who can shot laser beams from their hands, if your play group wants so BADLY play something with an "anime feel" tell them to read "Vagabound", or maybe "Blade of The immortal". That way, you can show to them that is anime isn´t just about naruto and DBZ, and you can make your campaign in peace. PS: I understand that Vagabound is a manga, but what the hell...
rkr1970 11-15-05, 06:12 PM	Explain the world you've created to the players. See if they understand what you are even saying. Don't fight character concepts that are inspired by anime, but I, personally, would never allow a concept based on an anime character. You may have to stick to your guns on that point, though. I had a kid at the college tell me that I had to let him play Naruto in my campaign. I told him I wasn't going to allow him to be Naruto and to please pick another idea (and name, of course). He claimed he had, I looked it over and found that all he had done was spell the name "Naarootoe" or something, and still tried to add in the other abilities from the show, even though I told him there were no 100 Clone feats available to 1st level monks. A while later he brought me a sheet with a "normal" monk on it. Five minutes into play, he traded it for the rejected one and told everyone that he was to be called "Naruto". I calmly informed him that his television series had just been cancled and that he could leave the table. He wouldn't leave, and everyone was asking what the problem was. I had to embarass the guy by telling the entire group about his attempt to cheat. He left in tears when other players started making fun of him for trying to cheat his way into a cartoon and telling him how sad it was that he couldn't follow the rules for 20 minutes. That was the worst I've seen, but every campaign lately there's at least one vampire or anime wannabe. I simply tell people that if they want to play in an anime game, there's a nice one going on Wednesday nights at the FLGS. Vampire is being LARPed on Saturdays over there... :D
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-15-05, 06:27 PM	The easiest Naruto build to use would be Rock Lee. Of course, if you find that they like anime so much, make all your enemies giant tenticled sex obsessed hentai monsters... After the ninth raping in half an hour I think they would get sick of playing anime. I can't decide between: :yuck: , :bow: , or :rofl: Can just see it... or maybe lady of pain...
Edymnion 11-15-05, 06:32 PM	Oh no, you got anime in my D&D! You got chocolate in my peanut butter! So anime is getting into the game. Lets see, I guess that means the game is getting face paced, cinematic, with mature story lines that generally are aimed at people older than 12? And this is a *BAD* thing? :confused:
The White Sorcerer 11-15-05, 06:38 PM	Hmm... This thread got me thinking... Gotta play a monk based on Masaru from Sexy Commando someday. I wonder if a DM would let me use Flick of the Wrist with unarmed attacks...
eudas 11-15-05, 06:38 PM	(snip) Lets see, I guess that means the game is getting face paced, cinematic, with mature story lines that generally are aimed at people older than 12? (snip) if only this were so. i'd also like to point out that, by far, the vast majority of anime out there is terrible, terrible atrocities against mankind. we're talking against-the-geneva-convention level of terrible. eudas
Edymnion 11-15-05, 06:50 PM	i'd also like to point out that, by far, the vast majority of anime out there is terrible, terrible atrocities against mankind. we're talking against-the-geneva-convention level of terrible.No, only the vast majority that airs on US Television is. The vast bulk of anime never makes it stateside. And when it does, its often so butchered and mangled by the censors that it bears little to no resemblance to it's original form. For example, there's this REALLY crappy anime that comes on FOX Saturday Mornings called Mew Mew Power. Its a bunch of underage catgirl french maid wannabe's running around trying to get boyfriends. Its crap. But the original actually had a strong message of fighting for the environment and protecting the earth. When it got translated over, the powers that be thought that was too high brow and sophisticated for kids, so they dumped ALL of it, and rewrote everything to be some ditzy piece of dribble. You can't judge anime based on nothing but the crap that gets played on FOX and WB.
eudas 11-15-05, 07:00 PM	(snip) You can't judge anime based on nothing but the crap that gets played on FOX and WB. i'm not basing it on Cartoon Network or anything, I'm basing it on what's found in video stores nationwide, on what I see when I go to the UT Anime Club meetings, what's on shelves in Fry's, etc. Granted, those things are only a notch above Cartoon Network, but still. It's to the point where buying anime DVD's is just a plain bad investment, unless you've seen it a couple of times before and KNOW it's good. And then there's stuff like Ranma 1/2. There's just no excuse for that. eudas
weasel fierce 11-15-05, 07:11 PM	I doubt Jack Vance and Michael Moorcock wrote for 12 year olds. Maybe the game changed its target audience ?
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-15-05, 07:32 PM	i'm not basing it on Cartoon Network or anything, I'm basing it on what's found in video stores nationwide, on what I see when I go to the UT Anime Club meetings, what's on shelves in Fry's, etc. Your homework for tonight is to rent and watch Spirited Away, Hime Mononoke, Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door and The one first episode disc of Vampire Princess Miyu every Blockbuster keeps. Either that, or your punishment is to watch Puny Puny Poemy with the volume cranked without reading the back of the box first.
a_psh 11-15-05, 07:37 PM	No, only the vast majority that airs on US Television is. I think Mystery Anime Theatre 3000 would beg to disagree. Just like with US television, there is a LOT of crap produced. A lot of stuff, good and bad, doesn't make it to the US. Now, I agree that translation and censorship can and has ruined things, but Japan is no glorious bastion of good storytelling, interesting characterization, and always-high-quality animation: some of it rocks, and some of it rocks but gets ruined in the conversion, but a lot of the stuff in its original form is still honest-to-goodness crap.
Millennium 11-15-05, 07:52 PM	Anime isn't getting into the game; it's getting into the players. Although anime certainly existed in the US before long before 3e came out, 3.0 and the basic sketches on which current elf designs are based were released well before anime was even remotely mainstream. Frankly, they remind me of the classic "Gray Aliens" much more than they remind me of any anime character. As for elves being Deedlit, you've got it backwards: Deedlit was, in fact, based directly on the 2e Elf archetype. No, I'm not kidding. Stick to your guns. Completely disallowing all anime characters will be difficult; after all, Record of Lodoss War and its ilk come from the same fantasy roots that D&D does, and their characters can be built using nothing but core classes with little trouble. That said, I doubt that such characters, if properly played, will cause you much grief. If I'm guessing right, your real problem is with immature players who haven't yet grasped the idea of original character concepts or any kind of depth in role-playing. They're only one step above "I just want to FWACKOOM! the enemies and take their stuff"; they're at "I just want to FWACKOOM! the enemies and stuff while pretending to be someone I saw on TV". It's a small step, but it is a step forward. At least they have a character in mind.
Telis_the_Deadeye 11-15-05, 07:57 PM	You guys can add all the anime you want to YOUR games but I'm not playing in any game with a sailor scout!!!!!!! Don't get me wrong cuz I love my anime, but please teacher isn't my idea of a good way to roleplay in D&D. Even if you're trying to play marie! Teen-spank-toons have no room around my table! :yuck: Some stuff, like Naruto is probably OK, but some guy around here wants to be a super saiyan. I got over that stuff when I figuered out girls weren't yucky! :shocked: :drool:
Bruunwald 11-15-05, 08:00 PM	A lot of people are confusing anime with something like Oriental Adventures or Hong Kong movies. All of these are completely different things. For instance, an adventure set in the OA setting could be as mundane and historical as The Last Samurai or as poetic as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I would say that using OA in no way implies that your game is necessarily anime, just as using a European setting does not immediately make your campaign an Arthurian legend. Likewise, you could play a straight Kung Fu movie without turning it into anime. Anime engenders a great many subgenres. How can you compare Spirited Away with Vampire Hunter D, or Beautiful Dreamer with Akira? The aspects that make up anime are largely visual, which is why I earlier complained about the new appearance of elves in D&D. To me, that's the most obvious aspect of anime to creep in. That and the steampunk look of armor in the PHB. Those things can be good, but they can also seem pandering and out-of-place. Who is being impressed by this? Surely not the highest denominator. That aside, there are other certain aspects of anime that can be exported out of the genre, such as self-sacrifice, sudden outbursts and last minute saves. However, most of these are character and story aspects and involve no adjustment of rules. You're really talking about players blurting out stilted dialogue that sounds translated or giving their characters Japanese names. No problem there, if that's how you want to play. My wife gives her characters Japanese names, but chooses exotic ones that can fit easily into a basic fantasy setting. Most anime convention is not nearly as original or as unique as it is made out to be. Any of the things I mentioned above could easily have come from a western source. There are those cultural saboteurs who like to claim that western culture offers nothing new and that it leeches from eastern culture all of its best ideas. Hogwash! Anime is one of the most derivative forms of entertainment available. The culture that surrounds it borrows liberally from any source it can get it hands on, western, eastern or otherwise. (Note that the aforementioned Record of Lodoss War is the admitted retelling of the creators' D&D game.) Anime and manga both unabashedly steal from themselves, each other and from anything else (American cinema in particular). So saying that aspects of anime don't already exist in your campaign is like denying you fight with swords. Likewise, saying that anime is completely original is silly. Before anyone bawls over this, know that I love anime and manga. My house is filled with it. My wife and I began dating through it. I am also a liberal and quite PC. But do I hold illusions that anime is in any way original or unique? Occasionally, you see something like Ghost in the Shell, which, though not thoroughly original, has something interesting to tell and an interesting way in which to tell it. But the main difference is that anime and Japanese cinema do not offer something new in their ponderings and quiet moments. Just something more rare in modern American cinema. But hardly unheard of. Whenever these sorts of things come up, I am reminded of The Magnificent Seven, which was based on Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. Kurosawa cited as an influence for many of his films, American westerns. All entertainment is cyclical. And we've been around so long, nothing is truly original, except perhaps technology. And even that is only used to solve the same old problems. Rant over.
rkr1970 11-15-05, 08:27 PM	You guys can add all the anime you want to YOUR games but I'm not playing in any game with a sailor scout!!!!!!! Don't get me wrong cuz I love my anime, but please teacher isn't my idea of a good way to roleplay in D&D. Even if you're trying to play marie! Teen-spank-toons have no room around my table! :yuck: Some stuff, like Naruto is probably OK, but some guy around here wants to be a super saiyan. I got over that stuff when I figuered out girls weren't yucky! :shocked: :drool: Three weeks ago isn't that long, John-John! :D
Ryven 11-15-05, 08:46 PM	OK, honestly, if a girl is drawing anime like characters and says "This is what my character looks like", does it really friggin' matter? As long as she's not messing up game mechanics by trying to be a charismatic fighter with a strength of 8, trying to outdo a 20 Str Barbarian, what does it matter? It's annoying? To you, maybe. This is why a lot of girls dont' get into D&D so much. They're not allowed to be *girls* with their characters. Follow the rules and whatnot, yeah, I get it, but go* ***m it, don't drive them away by not allowing them to fangirl out or whatnot. Let them be pretty fighters. Let them be sexy spellcasters. Let them be anime elves. It gets girls into the game, it lets girls geek out! If girls have to deal with geek guys talking about all the intricacies of the mechanics behind their Halfdragon Minotaur Warhulk Monk Barbarian (obviously made up, that combination has no bearing except to prove a point ^^) around them and during gaming, then the guys can deal with the girls playing "An elf with pretty pixie wings!". Eventually, we all grow up and even out. /rant
Adraedan 11-15-05, 08:56 PM	Evard's black tentacles, where are you now? 5 words Urokodojin, Legend Of The Overfiend
Telis_the_Deadeye 11-15-05, 09:18 PM	Three weeks ago isn't that long, John-John! :D Ever play charades, Rick?? Two words... seven letters total... Final letters of the words are K and U. :P ;) But seriously, if you find a build IN THE RULES it's cool to try an anime character. Just don't decide you have to change everything to be something you saw on tv. Thats really lame! And this from a teenager.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-15-05, 09:33 PM	Three weeks ago isn't that long, John-John! :D Geek Orthodox: Defined.
Rauric 11-15-05, 09:42 PM	Have them play Exalted or Feng Shui. Feng Shui might be be easier to pick up and run off the bat. It is a game based on Hong Kong action/kungfu movies and has templates called Old Master, Ghost, NINJA, Karate Cop, Kung Fu Artist, Sorcerer, Shao Lin Monk, and Monster. Plus there are rules for a never ending bullet supply or having 10 guns hidden on your body. It is not D & D, but your players might not WANT to play D&D from the looks of it. I wish you luck.
allenchan 11-15-05, 09:47 PM	As long as they dont want to have a fullblade and try to use monkey grip and powerful build... :banghead: ARGH. SO STUPID.
shadowrisae 11-15-05, 09:51 PM	I don't have a problem with anime in D&D because, well, it doesn't happen. If people want an anime game I'll pull out BESM d20. But D&D is D&D, not anime. Now, I do have Oriental Adventures and I've started running a game. However, we are running it as Oriental Adventures, not anime. Heck, we're doing it a bit more realistically than Oriental Adventures. Bryan studies ninpo and jujitsu in real life. He's being a ninja and is playing his ninja like a real ninja, not an anime ninja. Aaron is really into Japanese culture and even physically bows correctly and tacks on the correct Japanese honoriffics (-san, -sama, etc) when speaking to me when, as the DM, I am being an NPC that is important. An idea you can do is learn about how real samurai, ninja, etc acted within ancient Japanese culture and tell your players about it. Maybe they'll see the "cool" stuff in history and want to be more realistic. If not, there's always BESM. ;)
monkeyfist 11-15-05, 09:56 PM	Ok, Anime is great and all my characters I envision in anime, well not all. My character are not rip off of characters, and are based in the rules. I use Japanese names because they are more original than most of my English names. Is that wrong? maybe ,but my DM doesn’t care. Most anime is most likely bad, like most movies and TV shows. Then there a few good series, just like movies and TV. Now here is the answer Why is anime getting in the game, because players are putting it in. If your players want to break the rules stand your grounds. If they want ways to become Cool super uber leet Anime destroy planets one hit guys, they can they just have to get to an extremely high level. Since what is a DBZ move other than a high level Ki attack. Goku in the beginning of Dragon Ball was very much like a low level character, better than average. By DBZ he is almost epic character. Just tell your players sure you can design a character that one day will become like your favorite character, but they just have to level first. sorry for this most likely badly written paragraph.
Eightbitmage 11-15-05, 09:56 PM	I figure I may as well throw a few thoughts in on this as well. 1. Most action anime major characters are either epic, or if they have just started training extremely templated possibly with outsider hit dice or some such. The reason you don't see anime heros getting owned by goblins is that they did that years ago, and are now into the whole saving the world from the ultimatest evil in the universe. 2. Anime weither you like it or not is unavoidable. Almost any major concept has an anime based off it, there is even a show about making bread. It is one thing for players to be rediculous and ask for things they shouldn't have, but if it is something cool and within the rules, or even outside of the rules but won't upset balance, you may as well let them have it. 3. Some shows and manga are great for D&D ideas. Berserk (one title I have not seen mentioned) is a litteral treasure trove of ideas, and going from the beginning of the anime to the later parts of the manga you watch the main character grow from abou the equivilant of a 1st level Barbarian to a level 20+ demonslaying barbarian with epic items. Other good ones for D&D are Loddoss war, Kenshin, Arc the lad, and the show/manga "Bastard!!" where the main characters have classes, and alignments, and D&D monsters and spells pop up freqently (Mind flayer pretty early on and one of the main guy's favorite spells spells is magic missile)
Jherid 11-15-05, 10:04 PM	Either that, or your punishment is to watch Puny Puny Poemy with the volume cranked without reading the back of the box first. What'd ya mean Mr. Director, Kobayashi recommends everyone watch it like that!
Xanthia 11-15-05, 10:17 PM	I don't have a problem with anime in D&D because, well, it doesn't happen. If people want an anime game I'll pull out BESM d20. But D&D is D&D, not anime. Now, I do have Oriental Adventures and I've started running a game. However, we are running it as Oriental Adventures, not anime. My thoughts exactly. It's Oriental Adventures, not Anime Adventures. There are plenty of rules for anime RPGs, and D&D can be given an oriental feel, but those two are not the same thing. I played my first anime RPG at a con almost six years ago and I loved it, but I didn't go home and write up D&D sats for the Sailor Scouts. OK, honestly, if a girl is drawing anime like characters and says "This is what my character looks like", does it really friggin' matter? As long as she's not messing up game mechanics by trying to be a charismatic fighter with a strength of 8, trying to outdo a 20 Str Barbarian, what does it matter? It's annoying? To you, maybe. /rantWell, if you actually bothered to *read* my post, you'll find that I stated that it didn't bother me. In fact, I am the *only* person in the group who is completely okay with it. If you're going to be rude and accuse someone of not liking the way she roleplays, you should send angry e-mails to everyone else in the group except me. As long as they dont want to have a fullblade and try to use monkey grip and powerful build...They *do* stack, right? I only ask because I'm building a Cloud character, and I want him to be the coolest!
Varshul Reznoth 11-15-05, 10:24 PM	Xanthia forgot to mention that the girl is also hideously ugly and could probably pass for a dwarf with a birth defect. Not just that either, players keep losing their pencils and dice to her personal field of gravity. Also please note that when playing as a bard she does not sing, cast spells, or really do anything at all of importance. She almost always plays as a bard. Right now she is starting to play a rogue. There is no difference.
Zeromus 11-15-05, 11:25 PM	Ok, just for the record I enjoy anime. Record of Lodoss War being my favorite. Though honestly, does anime belong in D & D? I'm going to reply in the resoundingly negative. If one of my players wanted to play as some Super-Mega, Earth Crushing, Ninja-mecha, I'd tell them that they can feel free to retire their dice and exit table, stage left. Honestly, anime is good, but I wouldn't consider it near the class of D & D or Tolkien for that matter. I think really there are two different forms of fantasy at play here, True-Fantasy, with all its European rooted goodness. And Anime-Fantasy, which only reminds me of every Square-Enix game I can think of. And hey I'm not going to dissuade a player from having an Asian name or Culture, but if they want to I make them come up with a damn good reason to have them and maybe even come up with the culture and a sort of a theme of that culture... But for any player that wants to base there character after a character that isn't original, I say, do it in a way that isn't a direct Xerox of that character. I mean sure I'll base my NPS's traits of those of Luke Skywalker or Obi-wan Kenobi, but The character's of Star Wars are in a sense Character-Archetypes themselves... So yeah, no anime at my table. And call me a n00b but I DM with only the core rulebooks. More room for originality that way.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-15-05, 11:30 PM	I think really there are two different forms of fantasy at play here, True-Fantasy, with all its European rooted goodness. And Anime-Fantasy, which only reminds me of every Square-Enix game I can think of. Brother, you're thinking of the wrong game then.
Zeromus 11-16-05, 12:55 AM	How? True-fantasy I believe comes from the pages of JRR Tolkien. Who if not solely European, based his works on that of English culture.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 01:10 AM	How? True-fantasy I believe comes from the pages of JRR Tolkien. Who if not solely European, based his works on that of English culture. Take a look at Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or Eberron lately? This ain't Europe. And it's not Middle Earth either (for legal reasons)
rkr1970 11-16-05, 01:10 AM	Actually, "true-fantasy" comes from the myths and legends from around the world. Technically, Superman and Spiderman fit the criteria from a certain standpoint, because so many people are so familiar with their abilities, they have attained legendary status and are commonly refered to as the great mythos of modern America. That doen't mean they can be characters in my game, but they fall well within the idea of "true-fantasy" you're worried about. Also, Tolkien, according to Gary Gygax, played a minor enough role in shaping D&D. Vance, Lieber, and others each played at least as large a role as J.R.R.T. did. I dislike anime characters being used in my game because I don't like the way people play them. There is enough immaturity at most tables that no one should have to deal with tantrums when a player's not allowed to take some cartoony ability as a feat.
Andrew_980 11-16-05, 01:14 AM	folks go with what is popular, in the 80's it was final fansasy and conan. The trick is that too many want the super powers up front, tell them to earn it. I think the epic rules give the game a very anime/wuxia feel to it anyway.
Zeromus 11-16-05, 01:15 AM	Well I guess I like to base my campaigns around more European cultures. My point is Anime doesn't belong in D & D.
Callista 11-16-05, 01:18 AM	No, no... D&D is plenty flexible enough to allow Anime-style campaigns. Your games may not be flexible enough for it; but D&D in general is.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 01:27 AM	My point is Anime doesn't belong in D & D. In your DnD, not mine. My World of Ere (hpp://worldofere.com) is based deeply in anmie roots and my players are very happy with anime in thier DnD.
Terraneaux 11-16-05, 01:36 AM	I think part of the problem is that it is a central theme of the majority of anime that you do not earn greatness, you are born to it. Characters are frequently pushed to the forefront of the story based on who their father was or whether or not they fulfill a prophecy, and have powerful abilities due to their heritage, not their training or dedication. So when you have a person who's watched a lot of anime, they want to be able to beat the "king's champion" at level one, because, well, they're obviously superior, they have some unbeatable technique or something that will destroy all. Note: Yes, I do have an axe to grind.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 01:47 AM	I think part of the problem is that it is a central theme of the majority of anime that you do not earn greatness, you are born to it. Characters are frequently pushed to the forefront of the story based on who their father was or whether or not they fulfill a prophecy, and have powerful abilities due to their heritage, not their training or dedication. What anime have you watched? No, really? See, because the common theme of younger audience (and therefore much more widely seen in the US) anime is self improvement and proving yourself, so I'm going to call BS on this. In fact, the most maligned anime by geek orthodox, DBZ, makes the exact opposite point. The character Vegeta thinks he is the best of his kind because he was born to it, but he's no match for the commoner who know the value of hard training and work. See also: Naturo Rune Soldier Louie Pokemon (eh... don't see too much) Digimon, Digital Monsters One Piece (for the love of god, not the 4kids dub) Outlaw Star
fragnar0k 11-16-05, 02:18 AM	Tell them to buy Exalted, and play that. Good call. They're confusing D&D play style with exalted 100%. Exalted is pretty damn fun, but in small doses. Very small doses.
a_psh 11-16-05, 02:31 AM	I think part of the problem is that it is a central theme of the majority of anime that you do not earn greatness, you are born to it. Characters are frequently pushed to the forefront of the story based on who their father was or whether or not they fulfill a prophecy, and have powerful abilities due to their heritage, not their training or dedication. So when you have a person who's watched a lot of anime, they want to be able to beat the "king's champion" at level one, because, well, they're obviously superior, they have some unbeatable technique or something that will destroy all. Note: Yes, I do have an axe to grind. People have said the same thing about Forgotten Realms. They express it thusly: "Why the hell doesn't that level 5 guardsman over there go fight these rats? It'd take him 2 minutes! Why does a council of 12 epic paladins bother sending us level 4 scrubs on an important mission? Why doesn't Elminster save the world this time? What's all this bullcrap about me being the chosen one?" Now, whether you accept that criticism or reject it as unfair, it's definitely untrue to say that "chosen one" syndrome is all anime's fault.
lonesoldier 11-16-05, 02:33 AM	My players can play anime-like characters to their heart's desire. As long as they use only books published by WotC. My anime doesn't (I hope) leak into D&D because I watch things like Gundam and Evangelion... Mmmm...Evangelion...
a_psh 11-16-05, 02:34 AM	Well I guess I like to base my campaigns around more European cultures. My point is Anime doesn't belong in D & D. This breaks down when one notes that a lot of anime covers European or semi-European cultures, too. Sure, the Japanese aren't European, but modern America has nothing to do with Arthurian legends, either. So, really, your point is that anime doesn't belong in D&D because you don't like it. Now, I wholeheartedly agree in the sense that I dislike anime-style character personalities in my RPGs, but I also think that personal preference does not make an objective argument. And that's really all you have to stand on here.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 02:34 AM	Good call. They're confusing D&D play style with exalted 100%. Exalted is pretty damn fun, but in small doses. Very small doses. Oh, I'd loooove to hear this one. Play style is a DM thing, not a system thing.
Rauric 11-16-05, 02:55 AM	Xanthia forgot to mention that the girl is also hideously ugly and could probably pass for a dwarf with a birth defect. Not just that either, players keep losing their pencils and dice to her personal field of gravity. Also please note that when playing as a bard she does not sing, cast spells, or really do anything at all of importance. She almost always plays as a bard. Right now she is starting to play a rogue. There is no difference. I know this type, but she actually was hot. She was a star elf bard in my FR game. Zero effort and personality. She never used one spell. Ever. She was hot though. In the end she left and I was happy. I am married and the distraction of her chest was affecting my players and myself. :D
Rauric 11-16-05, 03:03 AM	Oh, I'd loooove to hear this one. Play style is a DM thing, not a system thing. No it's not. Exalted fits with an anime style and D&D doesn't traditionally. Unless you are using a ton of house rules. D20 does't really fit the Anime style. Exalted and Feng Shui IS anime though. Sorry, tis truth.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 03:10 AM	I think maybe you've never tried.
Tenzhi 11-16-05, 03:18 AM	No it's not. Exalted fits with an anime style and D&D doesn't traditionally. Unless you are using a ton of house rules. D20 does't really fit the Anime style. Exalted and Feng Shui IS anime though. Sorry, tis truth. You're either not playing the right games or not watching the right anime. ;)
WolfHati 11-16-05, 03:20 AM	The problem isn't that D&D can't run an anime style campaign, but that people playing an anime style character in a more traditional campaign reduce the integrity of the gameworld and suspension of disbelief necessary to create a compelling fantasy world. It isn't anything inherent in anime, except that it is the current trend in fantasy-themed entertainment, so there are more people trying to mimic it. It would be just as annoying for someone to say "I'm going to play Rambo" and somehow use monkey grip feat to wield an oversized heavy repeating crossbow. Now, there's nothing wrong with the character concept of a big burly man with a crossbow, however when it clashes enough with the tone of the game that it becomes frustrating. If characters don't fit with a game, they need to be changed until they do, otherwise their going to ruin everyone else's fun. Anime just happens to be the current inspiration for a lot of nonsensical characters.
Ryven 11-16-05, 03:25 AM	Xanthia: If it didn't irritate you on some level, why ignore and discourage her? She may have been annoying, but she was showing interest, interest that might outlast her phase, so she can grow into a gamer with mature character concepts. I didn't discourage my little brother when he wanted his first character to be a huge beefmonster. When he first started, he made the stereotypical dwarf fighter beefmonster battle monger. But he's grown into a better gamer since then, since we let him learn his own lessons. If I had been rude to him about it, or nitpicked him about it, he would have lost interest and parked himself in front of Diablo II again. Generally: Personally, I don't see much of a difference in styles of fantasy. Fantasy if fantasy, and D&D is versatile to allow ALL types of fantasy. Whether or not you allow them in your game is your guys' deal, but it shouldn't be discredited as "false fantasy." And there's nothing wrong with melding and meshing a little of the two to make an awesome game. C'mon, we're the next generation of gamers, we're suppose to innovate :D
Deven Firewalker 11-16-05, 03:44 AM	Oh, I'd loooove to hear this one. Play style is a DM thing, not a system thing. I have noticed that you have pointed to the DM in regards to game style. It would seem that you are more of a player than a DM (based off of your comments) because any DM would know that just as much of a campaigns fate is in the hands of players and their ability to deal with situations as it is in the DM’s hands to tell a story. I was in a Ravenloft game where the DM was doing a great job of running NPC’s and telling the story but the Players were turning the game into comedy hour. The DM did not break the mood but the game was brought down by the players not the DM. This deserves an 'OH NOES!' Every game has a different feel to is. Me, personally, I do like having an anime feel to my game. But if you don't it has nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with your DMing. It doesn't matter if a player has a samurai classed character that can use Kenshin's technique. It doesn't matter if the monk class bears no resemblance to martial artists OR fighting monks. No, what matters is how you present the world and the feel of the game. And you know what? If you actually paid attention to anime and not just the stereotypes that the 'geek orthodox' coniptions both for and against, you'd realise that you would get incredibly hard pressed to find a feel, theme, or subject that doesn't have at least a japanese animation OVA based around it. So stop complaining and spend more time evaluating how you present your campaign. You must not have read my post at all because I have seen “Many” Anime in my day and know the good ones from the bad. I did not know that I offended you in such a way as to refer to my question as “complaining”. I do know that not one anime I have seen can hold up to Seven Samurai or Samurai 1-3 and if I have my choice in running an Oriental Adventure game like Seven Samurai or Naruto, I will pick Seven Samurai. It seem obvious that you are a “big” anime fan and if you want to run your game with heavy anime influences that’s fine. My counsel to you is: stick to your guns. I'm sure there are certain folks who will angrily respond to this post with, "Players should always get to play exactly the character they want, and you are worse than Hitler for refusing to allow them to fulfill their glorious vision! Also you eat babies." Those people are... how can I express this kindly?... I feel that those people are wrong. Thanks, I think this statements is very true. The problem isn't that D&D can't run an anime style campaign, but that people playing an anime style character in a more traditional campaign reduce the integrity of the gameworld and suspension of disbelief necessary to create a compelling fantasy world. It isn't anything inherent in anime, except that it is the current trend in fantasy-themed entertainment, so there are more people trying to mimic it. It would be just as annoying for someone to say "I'm going to play Rambo" and somehow use monkey grip feat to wield an oversized heavy repeating crossbow. Now, there's nothing wrong with the character concept of a big burly man with a crossbow, however when it clashes enough with the tone of the game that it becomes frustrating. If characters don't fit with a game, they need to be changed until they do, otherwise their going to ruin everyone else's fun. Anime just happens to be the current inspiration for a lot of nonsensical characters. I agree with this very much so. I also think that this hits the nail on the head. I like anime but I don’t feel anime has a place in my game nor in the D&D rules. I don’t mind at all if people want to run an anime game but I just don’t want every OA game to turn into “I want to shoot lasers out of my eyes”.
Tenzhi 11-16-05, 03:46 AM	It would be just as annoying for someone to say "I'm going to play Rambo" and somehow use monkey grip feat to wield an oversized heavy repeating crossbow. Now, there's nothing wrong with the character concept of a big burly man with a crossbow, however when it clashes enough with the tone of the game that it becomes frustrating. The problem with that is, that if the player hadn't made it clear his character was inspired by Rambo, the other players likely wouldn't have a problem with it - because the character concept of a big burly guy with a crossbow is perfectly normal. Likewise, a person could probably slip an anime-inspired Sorceror/Monk into a game unnoticed if they were subtle about it. (In fact, I have, and no one complained until the source of inspiration was later revealed.) For the most part, characters inspired by such source material do not inherently mar suspension of disbelief; rather, some players' inherent biases damage their own suspension of disbelief.
AngelDust Anderson 11-16-05, 04:24 AM	I personly have no problem with anyone who wants to make someone based on an anime for my D&D games as long as they follow all rules. You want to jump insanely high? ring of jump + maxed out skill. You want to blay someone from DBZ? Epic Monk/Warlock with flight invocation. I personly have played a bayonet (short sword) throwing Paladin who hunts the undead (can you say Paladin Alexander Anderson?) in a game and it was fine. If you follow the rules then it is fine. OK someone playing a character who at level 1 wants to blow up the world or clone at will is annoying but it is perfectly fine with people who are actualy reasonable enough to wait till Epic to do that.
Jabberwock761 11-16-05, 05:06 AM	I think everyone on this board has been right so far. I would say the only reason anime is "leaking" into D&D is the prevailance of anime fans, and the cartoony/anime-ish art being used by WotC. I think one thing that hasn't been pointed out in this discussion yet, and not to ruin the romantic, the-creators-of-the-product-really-care-and-are-seeking-some-deeper-truth mindset, but WotC is a company. And like any company, they'd print books with pictures of peoples' dead pets post mordum if it would raise profit one-tenth of a cent! Ever since WotC & Hasbro got its hands on D&D, I've been saying: "Here it comes! The Magic dynasty is about to expand it's empire." Low and behold: Ebberon. Sure, it was designed by "some guy", but it smacks, no, beats the **** of Magic, as does the "steampunk" armor and numerous other WotC additions). After all, Magic made 'em rich, man, they'd be missing the point of capitalism not to use it! Anime makes money. Product loyalty considered for you folks that anime does it for, if I were WotC, I'd drain you people of every last red dime you're willing to cough up to see big, watery-eyed people, or vampire ninjas, or whatever the **** draws you to anime. I'm not a fan of anime and know nothing about it. And don't bother, I won't give it a chance (an idiot "friend" of mine went ahead and made the mistake of showing me Sailor Moon, then explaining in detail how and why she was "hot"...yeah...not that sex-starved...thanks...). But if I thought I could be making money off of it by selling anime whatever to whomever, you better believe I would be hiring someone to market it! My point is this: You're right, I'm sure WotC is putting some anime-ish things into D&D, but the people telling you to play your game the way you want are right; I don't like anime and won't use it in my games, but that doesn't mean I mind other people playing the way they want to. I think that a player that pulls from one other source for character "inspiration", yet insists on keeping so many aspects of that one source is simply too lazy to make up their own character. If the character they insist on plagerizing doesn't fit into your setting, tell them why and work with them to meet a happy medium. Hope I helped!
Jabberwock761 11-16-05, 05:30 AM	For my entertainment's sake, start a discussion about this topic on the Oriental Adventures board. :twitch:
Dragonchild 11-16-05, 09:02 AM	I'm under the impression this thread doesn't really have anything meaningful about it. Anime and D&D happen to be two mediums that share some overlap. D&D campaigns do not regulate one another, so what doesn't work for one can work for another. If a DM does not approve of a player using anime as an inspiration, that's a DM-player issue. If it runs any deeper, then it's just two people having an argument, and should be treated as such. Neither D&D nor anime are to blame. A lot of these posts are drawing the wrong conclusions, here. The anime-D&D overlap is real, but I don't see it as something to be analyzed or squashed. It's just a natural consequence of two hobbies sharing the same target audience. Everyone's gonna have to find a way to work with it at some point, but I don't think attacking one or the other is going to help. When all's said and done, this thread really isn't anything more than just a place for people suffering from anime fatigue to rant. Now, if that's a useful purpose in and of itself, cool. Just lemme get back out of the way here so y'all can go back to ranting.
babysamurai 11-16-05, 10:13 AM	Anime aside, I have seen people base their PC's off animated characters since the 70's. How many semi-clad Paladins based off of Taarna from the animated film Heavy Metal did we see in the early 80's? It's nothing new, whether it's anime or Elric, people will always look for inspiration for characters/play-style from a variety of sources...and what's wrong with that, because, in the end, everything is derivative. As Frank Zappa said "steal from everyone".
The White Sorcerer 11-16-05, 10:14 AM	Okay, a lot of people here seem to have the idea that an anime-style character requires great power, or that an anime-style campaign requires lots of house rules. Not so! As I read this discussion, I cooked up an anime-style adventure party. Here they are. All are 1st level humans. A male fighter with a longsword and shield. Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 12. The only one in the party who doesn't notice the cleric's feelings for him. Special Tech: Lion's Roar Slash. A male wizard. Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 10. Lacks confidence in his spells, although can wield them with great proficiency. Extremely bookish. Special Tech: Phoenix Fire Wave. A female cleric. Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13. A total klutz, and madly in love with the fighter, although doesn't dare to admit it. When necessary whips out her secondary weapon, a wooden mallet, and hits the guys on it. Especially the rogue. Special Tech: Divine Healing and Divien Summoning. A male rogue. Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10. A big ol' perv. Gets into trouble often. Especially with women. Special Tech: Good ol' backstab, who'd shout fancy names when trying to be stealthy? There. All done with the core rules.
Sulaco 11-16-05, 10:26 AM	Has any other DM ran into this problem and how have you dealt with it? No. Thankfully no one I game with has the slightest interest in anime so I don't need to deal with that kind of rubbish.
eudas 11-16-05, 10:54 AM	Your homework for tonight is to rent and watch Spirited Away, Hime Mononoke, Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door and The one first episode disc of Vampire Princess Miyu every Blockbuster keeps. Either that, or your punishment is to watch Puny Puny Poemy with the volume cranked without reading the back of the box first. i've already watched princess mononoke and spirited away; miyazaki is the best in the field as far as i am concerned. vampire princess miyu is good, too, despite its overall episodic repetitiveness (it can be good or bad, depending on how interesting the anime series is to begin with). cowboy bebop is OK, too, but i'm not as big of a fan of it as i am of other animes. some other ones i've liked are ghost in the shell, ghost in the shell 2: innocence, akira, escaflowne, metropolis. perhaps we should take this conversation to PM, or email... eudas
rkr1970 11-16-05, 11:13 AM	Okay, a lot of people here seem to have the idea that an anime-style character requires great power, or that an anime-style campaign requires lots of house rules. Not so! As I read this discussion, I cooked up an anime-style adventure party. Here they are. All are 1st level humans. A male fighter with a longsword and shield. Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 12. The only one in the party who doesn't notice the cleric's feelings for him. Special Tech: Lion's Roar Slash. A male wizard. Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 10. Lacks confidence in his spells, although can wield them with great proficiency. Extremely bookish. Special Tech: Phoenix Fire Wave. A female cleric. Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13. A total klutz, and madly in love with the fighter, although doesn't dare to admit it. When necessary whips out her secondary weapon, a wooden mallet, and hits the guys on it. Especially the rogue. Special Tech: Divine Healing and Divien Summoning. A male rogue. Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10. A big ol' perv. Gets into trouble often. Especially with women. Special Tech: Good ol' backstab, who'd shout fancy names when trying to be stealthy? There. All done with the core rules. And all of these are fine examples of anime-inspired characters. I would allow any of them in my game. The problem I, and many others, have is when setting up a low level game and some schmuck wants to launch balls of soul energy from his hands or have a spirit gun in his fingers and call it a bonus fighter feat. I don't change the rules to fit TV. I would invent a feat for a player if it fit an original character concept that I could get behind, but there's a big difference there. I actually like when players change spell and feat names to match their character. It makes them more original, even if they got the idea to do it from anime, with out trying to change any rules. I have also stopped players from making characters out of Legolas, Conan, Xena, and even Man-at-Arms (from He-Man, don't ask), as well as many others. Most of these I would not even have noticed if the players had bothered to change the names or drop the Austrian accent. Not that I would mind a Legolas-type character, but I refuse to allow iconic figures into my game, particularly from movies or TV, because of the whining problems later when you hear "That wouldn't happen to Legolas. Didn't you see how he walked on top of the snow? The pit wouldn't have noticed his weight." This isn't always from the player who has the iconic character either. Other players know the abilities of Legolas or Xena and expect the rules bent to match the icon. If someone pulls something from a book they've read, even if I recognize it, as long as it's not something everyone at the table would recognize, I might allow it with some modifications. As far as anime goes, all the best anime is so ingrained in peoples' awareness right now, any deviation on the part of the DM from the image on TV leads to a table full of whiners. It may not happen everytime, but twice is more than enough for me. Anime in the game? Fine. I won't change the game world to feel more anime, but if you want to make your character feel anime, OK. Anime characters in the game? No way! There will be no Monkey D. Luffy's, no Yoh Asakura's, and sure as heck no Naruto's. A little originality is required to play in my game!
Millennium 11-16-05, 11:22 AM	Well I guess I like to base my campaigns around more European cultures. My point is Anime doesn't belong in D & D. I couldn't disagree more. Anime "belongs" in D&D exactly as much as Vance, Zelazny, Tolkien, and their ilk belong in it: possible inspiration, but not necessary. Of course, I'm misusing the term "anime" here -it's a medium, like paintings or books, not a genre- but that's the way people are using it in this thread, so oh well. If you don't want anime in your game, don't use it. D&D isn't really built to work well with many of the concepts that are currently popular among anime producers, though you could probably run a wicked Record of Lodoss War -based game (which makes sense, given that Lodoss was based directly on D&D). For games based on those concepts, I use a different system, and I suspect it works much better than D&D would for that. But there are plenty of other systems -even d20-based systems- which work well with those concepts. If someone wants to play an anime-based game they'd do much better with those systems than even a heavily-houseruled D&D. D&D isn't a sacred relic, and you shouldn't be afraid to use a system just because it doesn't have "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. Play D&D when you want the feel that the system is built for. Play something else when you want a different feel. By the way, here's my take on anime characters. I can be very cooperative with variant rules to accommodate players' original character concepts, and I can be even more cooperative if you can suggest rules and mechanics which have already been playtested elsewhere (I'll ask for a source, though). I'm a lot less cooperative, though, if I have reason to believe that a concept isn't original (for example, if the player is just playing someone they saw on TV). I call these characters "NPPCs" (Not the Player's Player Character), and although I don't ban them, they get no special treatment rules-wise. The player can play an NPPC to whatever extent the rules allow, but no further than that. I'm not going to add a "Shinobi" PrC just so someone can play Naruto, nor an "Immortal" race just so someone can play Duncan Macleod.
HamHam 11-16-05, 11:24 AM	I ripped a large number of NPCs from FMA to put into my game because they fit and it was easier than making stuff up on my own. ;) Although none of them are even much like the originals anymore, some of them don't even have the same powers... Sure, Ed and Al would be very out of place in Middle Earth, but so would Drizzt and company.
Spike_Fightwicky 11-16-05, 12:00 PM	I have noticed that you have pointed to the DM in regards to game style. It would seem that you are more of a player than a DM (based off of your comments) because any DM would know that just as much of a campaigns fate is in the hands of players and their ability to deal with situations as it is in the DM’s hands to tell a story. I was in a Ravenloft game where the DM was doing a great job of running NPC’s and telling the story but the Players were turning the game into comedy hour. The DM did not break the mood but the game was brought down by the players not the DM. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were a player in one of the Ravenloft games I ran. Only 2 out of 5-6 (numbers fluctuated occasionally) players actually got immersed into the game. The rest just talked about movies or made jokes while the 2 were RPing. Later on (the game fell through because half the people moved away), to satisfy everyone, I started up a Dungeon Hack game with carefully injected doses of RP opportunities. The 2 RPers were satisfied, while the rest were happy with the monster slaying. The players have significant say in how a campaign will be played. That said, I don't see any inherent problem with adding an Anime flair to a D&D game. Frankly, alot of the anime I've seen were alot deeper than any movies or TV shows we get here. I find it kind of silly when someone makes a character using a 'spikey haired, monkey grip, giant sword wielding' template, but I have no problem playing with said player (as long as they know what they're doing and don't complain if their character gets face planted - "Cloud wouldn't go down in one hit! This game sucks!") playing in the game. Of course I can't stand it when the DM makes his own uber DMPC based off of an anime or video game or movie character and hogs the spotlight by displaying how great the DMPC is... One last bit: I made the mistake of watching an episode of the Fox Kids One Piece, and the dubbing was so bad that I can't get into the series at all, even though everyone else I know that has seen it says it's great.
weasel fierce 11-16-05, 01:37 PM	You can draw inspiration from wherever makes you happy. However, if you do run an anime inspired game (and the D20 rules certainly supports that), have players at least make original characters, with personalities of their own, rather than cardboard copies of a guy in a show.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 01:54 PM	I have noticed that you have pointed to the DM in regards to game style. It would seem that you are more of a player than a DM (based off of your comments) AHAHAHAHAHA! You haven't been around here often. because any DM would know that just as much of a campaigns fate is in the hands of players and their ability to deal with situations as it is in the DM’s hands to tell a story. You still control the feel of the game overall.If you don't your players don't respect you.
trollbill 11-16-05, 02:16 PM	Signs Anime is invading your D&D game too much. You players want to take the Over-sized Weapon feat multiple times for the same weapon. Your sorcerer's verbal component for Lightning Bolt is "Peeeekaaaachuuuuu!" Your players keep looking for an artifact that will allow them to merge into a powerful fighting machine in combat. All your female characters are under dressed, under age and over endowed. Any specific combat maneuver can cause planetary wide destruction. Your players refer to casting buff spells as, 'powering up.' And they're confused as to why the monsters don't wait the 5 rounds it takes them to Power Up before they start attacking. Your wizard refers to his Familiar Pocket as a Pokeball. Your players give names to each of their special combat maneuvers and yell them out in combat just before they do them. All of the PCs have names based on food products. Your players refer to any class ability as a 'Jutsu.' Your character inexplicably keeps walking in on girls while they are dressing or taking a bath.
rkr1970 11-16-05, 02:40 PM	Your character inexplicably keeps walking in on girls while they are dressing or taking a bath. This should result in 1d3 damage from the nose bleed... ;)
weasel fierce 11-16-05, 02:46 PM	..characters receive a free level of experience for every year they are under 18, loosing those as they age (unless they are the villain) A major bad guy can only be defeated by a specific character, in a specific way. That character will immediately know this, upon encountering him.
The White Sorcerer 11-16-05, 02:58 PM	A major bad guy can only be defeated by a specific character, in a specific way. That character will immediately know this, upon encountering him. The first part might be true, but the second...
Dark Realm 11-16-05, 03:07 PM	Ever since 3rd edition came out I have seen a major influence of anime in the art, game style and over all feel of D&D. When looking at 2nd edition then looking at 3rd, you see a major difference just in the art. Every character in 3ed is depicted as some super hero doing something amazing or uncanny. With just the art change alone it is not shocking that so many players want to be a Ninja from Naruto. **thinks back to the good old days when PC’s were really afraid of a lich** :weep: I would tell your players that your game is not going to be an anime game and that if they push the “I want to be Batman!” you should then smite there characters with hells fury. It sounds like your players are trying to see how far they can get with you and in my experience the more you give in the more ground you will lose. I sadly learned that the hard way.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 03:10 PM	A major bad guy can only be defeated by a specific character, in a specific way. That character will immediately know this, upon encountering him. "I AM NO MAN!"
HamHam 11-16-05, 03:21 PM	"I AM NO MAN!" QFT The problem I, and many others, have is when setting up a low level game and some schmuck wants to launch balls of soul energy from his hands or have a spirit gun in his fingers and call it a bonus fighter feat. That's called Magic Missle.
The White Sorcerer 11-16-05, 04:39 PM	Ever since 3rd edition came out I have seen a major influence of anime in the art, game style and over all feel of D&D. A lot of people are saying this. None of them have really been able to back it up properly.
Ongorth 11-16-05, 04:40 PM	You still control the feel of the game overall.If you don't your players don't respect you. Critical point. From what I gather, most groups don't consist of each person in it contributing (relatively) equal amounts of work. Instead, they pick one player (normally called the DM) and require that they do a disproportionate amount of work. When these players all require that this DM cater to every one of their little demands, it certainly shows a lack of respect. Certainly the DM should and must consider the imput, interests and desires of their players, but merely by the virtue that they are doing the grunt work, their tone SHOULD be palpable. At the very, very least, its what they are good at and most people want above all else a good game. _________________ More to the point, anything and everything has a place in D&D. Anime is just a source. I'd hate to hear someone say that my love of Westerns and the great themes that go with the genre have no place in D&D, when they certainly fit perfectly. The D&D system itself places no limits on storytelling style and no limits on the subjects that can be broached. Honestly, this is one of the many cases where it isn't about D&D, but instead about people not agreeing about stuff. We hear this same arguement in the arcades, we hear the same arguement at the poker table and we hear the same arguement at the dinner table. Its really matter of finding the common ground, perhaps something like: 1) The players can theme their characters however they like as long as they design all the mechanics and geographic locations assossiated with that theme. (Example: I once designed a character from a culture of my own design. As such, I designed the geography, outlined the people, industries, customs, attitudes, languages, etc.) 2) The players can give there characters whatever flavor they want, but this is purely descriptive. The story and the game world will stay strictly in the themes of the DM. 3) The characters need to keep their character designs tight to the themes of the campaign world, but are free to slant their character with description and (possibly) mechanics so that they indirectly reflect the themes they want. And so on. Honestly, you could really have this problem in reverse too (anime inspired DM being stiffled by "traditionalist" fantasy players who refuse to branch out).
trollbill 11-16-05, 05:08 PM	A lot of people are saying this. None of them have really been able to back it up properly. I am not sure what exactly would constitute 'proof' of this. Regardless, Anime is showing a growing popularity in the U.S. It is natural that this increase in popularity would spill out into other areas, especially closely related areas. If you take a look at the average D&D player you are going to find a lot more similarities than just D&D. Frequently they also like Fantasy, Science Fiction, computerized gaming, cartoons, comic books, superheroes, board games, and, yes, Anime. It is natural that these things spill over into each other.
monkeyfist 11-16-05, 05:13 PM	anime coming in is like the new genration of gamers like me, 15 coming in. Its the old( High middle earth fantasy) and the new(anime). In the end we all can say its up to the DM. since D&D came become anything even a western etc. the main problem I see is players who are immature and dont understand the game. Just tell them they have to grow into the characters they want one step at a time.
Sulaco 11-16-05, 05:14 PM	I am not sure what exactly would constitute 'proof' of this. Regardless, Anime is showing a growing popularity in the U.S. It is natural that this increase in popularity would spill out into other areas, especially closely related areas. If you take a look at the average D&D player you are going to find a lot more similarities than just D&D. Frequently they also like Fantasy, Science Fiction, computerized gaming, cartoons, comic books, superheroes, board games, and, yes, Anime. It is natural that these things spill over into each other. I just do not see this supposed anime-influence in D&D. What I do see is a different aesthetic now then when 1e and 2e were created and which extends well beyond both D&D and anime. It is not that anime is invading D&D but rather that the current zeitgeist is one to which both anime and the new D&D aesthetic appeals. In other words, the look and feel of D&D grew organically in order to appeal to a modern audience, and for many that same aesthetic is also served by anime. Unfortunately some people are unable to conceptualize this and so erroneously conclude that one must have followed form the other.
trollbill 11-16-05, 05:28 PM	I just do not see this supposed anime-influence in D&D. What I do see is a different aesthetic now then when 1e and 2e were created and which extends well beyond both D&D and anime. It is not that anime is invading D&D but rather that the current zeitgeist is one to which both anime and the new D&D aesthetic appeals. In other words, the look and feel of D&D grew organically in order to appeal to a modern audience, and for many that same aesthetic is also served by anime. Unfortunately some people are unable to conceptualize this and so erroneously conclude that one must have followed form the other. The influence, like all things cultural, is mutual, of course. It would be hard to argue that Record of Lodoss War was not influenced by D&D, especially if you knew its history.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 05:54 PM	The influence, like all things cultural, is mutual, of course. It would be hard to argue that Record of Lodoss War was not influenced by D&D, especially if you knew its history. There used to be a website where they designers had thier character sheets posted and discussions about the campaign. I'll see if I can find it.
a_psh 11-16-05, 08:39 PM	Ever since WotC & Hasbro got its hands on D&D, I've been saying: "Here it comes! The Magic dynasty is about to expand it's empire." Low and behold: Ebberon. Sure, it was designed by "some guy", but it smacks, no, beats the **** of Magic, as does the "steampunk" armor and numerous other WotC additions). After all, Magic made 'em rich, man, they'd be missing the point of capitalism not to use it! Anime makes money. Product loyalty considered for you folks that anime does it for, if I were WotC, I'd drain you people of every last red dime you're willing to cough up to see big, watery-eyed people, or vampire ninjas, or whatever the **** draws you to anime. Err, it seems that, between the ranting and the profanity filter, the point of your post has been kind of lost. Other than airships, what are the characteristics of Eberron that render it anime-like or Magic-like? More specifically, how is Eberron distinctly more about money-grubbing than the generic line books or FR, which has new books coming out for it about twice as fast as Eberron does?
Tenzhi 11-16-05, 11:28 PM	And all of these are fine examples of anime-inspired characters. I would allow any of them in my game. The problem I, and many others, have is when setting up a low level game and some schmuck wants to launch balls of soul energy from his hands or have a spirit gun in his fingers and call it a bonus fighter feat. I don't change the rules to fit TV. I would invent a feat for a player if it fit an original character concept that I could get behind, but there's a big difference there. To quote a little green guy: "Only different in your mind." Originality is an illusion; a false grail. Any given "original" idea has been thought of before somewhere else - you only call it original if you specifically haven't seen it before or are incapable of making the correlation between it and a similar idea you have seen before. Thus, the difference between inventing a feat for a player's "original" spirit gun concept and a player's Yu yu Hakusho-inspired spirit gun concept only exists within your own internal bias.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-16-05, 11:49 PM	Spirit Gun [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Cha 14+, must have taken the oath of the spirit detective. Benefit: You may cast magic missile 1/day At caster level 1 as a spelllike ability. Spirit Shotgun [General, Fighter] Prerequisites: Cha 16+, Spirit Gun, must have taken the oath of the spirit detective. Benefit: You may cast magic missle 1/day at caster level 9 as a spelllike ability.
WolfHati 11-16-05, 11:53 PM	But then again, the only way we can view the world is through our own internal bias. There is a definite difference between an original idea and a derivative one, even if it is only in one's mind. Heck, it's an idea, it's only in your mind anyhow.
Xanthia 11-17-05, 12:09 AM	Xanthia: If it didn't irritate you on some level, why ignore and discourage her? She may have been annoying, but she was showing interest, interest that might outlast her phase, so she can grow into a gamer with mature character concepts. I didn't discourage my little brother when he wanted his first character to be a huge beefmonster. When he first started, he made the stereotypical dwarf fighter beefmonster battle monger. But he's grown into a better gamer since then, since we let him learn his own lessons. If I had been rude to him about it, or nitpicked him about it, he would have lost interest and parked himself in front of Diablo II again. I wasn't ignoring her when she roleplays, and I don't discourage her from making characters (even if they are the same character over and over; I've made bazillions of elven wizards). I'm not the DM in this case, and I have almost no control as to what goes on in this campaign (the DM tends to railroad us everywhere). I *have* noticed her roleplaying potential, and have invited her to my new Gestalt game I'm starting soon on the side of my current campaign. I don't ignore the D&D part; I ignore the anime part.
Tenzhi 11-17-05, 12:39 AM	But then again, the only way we can view the world is through our own internal bias. Not at all. If we can recognize our own biases we can look beyond them. If we can recognize the biases of others, we can look at the world through their eyes. I, for one, am biased against bias.
rkr1970 11-17-05, 02:24 AM	To quote a little green guy: "Only different in your mind." Originality is an illusion; a false grail. Any given "original" idea has been thought of before somewhere else - you only call it original if you specifically haven't seen it before or are incapable of making the correlation between it and a similar idea you have seen before. Thus, the difference between inventing a feat for a player's "original" spirit gun concept and a player's Yu yu Hakusho-inspired spirit gun concept only exists within your own internal bias. No. I wouldn't allow anything called a spirit GUN into my campaign anyway! I like the feats Vaal has made, though, and if someone were to come to me with those, using names like "exorcist" instead of spirit detective and "spiritual dagger" and "spititual lance" for the feats, it just might fly. Although for Spirit Shotgun, shouldn't you only be able to target a single opponent?? I wouldn't even mind if they told me where they got the idea, as long as they were willing to make it their own. Then they aren't playing the TV character, but their original take on the concept. I have no problem with characters that are INSPIRED by a particular source. But I expect a player to put something of themselves into it, or there's no point in playing it. And when the player has invested their own creativity into it, it becomes original. It become derivitive when the creative effort applyed to it is only a thin veil. Even if I don't recognize the corelation, I still notice the lack of effort and creativity on the player's part. That alone is enough to let an observant DM see that there is a lack of originality. So, thank you for trying to define MY concept of what is original. You've failed miserably and should go wipe that off. Eggs can stain your face, you know...
Tenzhi 11-17-05, 02:47 AM	But I expect a player to put something of themselves into it, or there's no point in playing it. It's a bit arrogant to make that call when you aren't the one playing the character. And when the player has invested their own creativity into it, it becomes original. It become derivitive when the creative effort applyed to it is only a thin veil. Even if I don't recognize the corelation, I still notice the lack of effort and creativity on the player's part. That alone is enough to let an observant DM see that there is a lack of originality. And if they end up with the same character, one will still be somehow better than the other in your eyes because you feel they worked for it. In the end, pretty much like I was saying in regards to the difference being solely internal bias. So, thank you for trying to define MY concept of what is original. You've failed miserably and should go wipe that off. Eggs can stain your face, you know... The definition was general - originality is an illusion; the application was specific and not far off the mark.
rkr1970 11-17-05, 03:11 AM	It's a bit arrogant to make that call when you aren't the one playing the character.How is that arrogant? There IS no point in playing a character if you haven't invested of yourself. I fully expect people to instill their characters with a bit of themselves. Playing a game where all your choices are based on "what would so-and-so do?" isn't something you should inflict on others unless that's the point of the game. I doubt full blown anime campaigns would be much fun if all you did was run around and figure out what each TV version of the character would have done. And if they end up with the same character, one will still be somehow better than the other in your eyes because you feel they worked for it. In the end, pretty much like I was saying in regards to the difference being solely internal bias. If one worked on the idea, and one didn't... then one of them WOULD be better. And I doubt it's just in my eyes. The definition was general - originality is an illusion; the application was specific and not far off the mark. Hmmm.... Not far off the mark is it? I agreed that inspiration was fine, so long as an effort was made to change it. I even said that before your grossly insulting attack. That means that I had already explained what I felt to be originality. A personal touch. Most of us without CRANIAL-SPHINCTORAL JUXTAPOSITION recognize when someone has added a bit of themselves to a creation of theirs. Recognizing the source has no bearing on whether the lack of originality is apparent. A lot of DMs recognize when someone is playing someone else's PC concept. There's something lacking in their game-play. I may not even know who made the character concept, but I know that the person playing it wasn't that involved in its creation. I would say your allegation was rather wide of the mark. Therefore an apology is expected, unless you really are as much of a pompous jerk as you made yourself out to be.
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 04:00 AM	CRANIAL-SPHINCTORAL JUXTAPOSITION What?
WolfHati 11-17-05, 04:04 AM	The proper medical term is Cranio****** Inversion Syndrome (CRIS). And please don't make fun of those who suffer from the malignant affects of CRIS, they have it hard enough in life as it is.
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 04:04 AM	“I am going to run a Ninja like a Naruto ninja,...is there any PrC that can shoot energy blasts....can I make up a PrC that is like a Naruto Ninja?” I am going to run an Elf like a Legolas elf,...is there any PrC that can shoot arrows while sliding down the stairs on a shield....can I make up a PrC that is like a Legolas Elf? In other words, how is this problem actually related to anime?
Tenzhi 11-17-05, 04:23 AM	How is that arrogant? There IS no point in playing a character if you haven't invested of yourself. It's arrogant because you really have no place telling people what there is a point in them playing or not. As the point of playing is to have fun, you're essentially trying to tell people how they should be having fun. Playing a game where all your choices are based on "what would so-and-so do?" isn't something you should inflict on others unless that's the point of the game. Do I even need to point out how stupid that statement is in light of the fact that that's exactly how any character is played? "How would this character react in this situation..." Hmmm.... Not far off the mark is it? Yes, not far off the mark at all. You have shown that you not only impose your biases on others, you revel in it. Which, despite your fixation on my definition of originality, was the point after all. CRANIAL-SPHINCTORAL JUXTAPOSITION For the White Sorceror: A faux-clever way of saying "head-up-your-backside." I would say your allegation was rather wide of the mark. Therefore an apology is expected, unless you really are as much of a pompous jerk as you made yourself out to be. I only apologize when an apology is merited. I don't deny being a pompous echo.
J.Augustus Rose II 11-17-05, 04:30 AM	In other words, how is this problem actually related to anime? It's not. But if there's on thing I've learned in reading utterly asinine threads like this one is that geeks are easily threatened and fear other geeks who don't like the exact same geeky things they like. There is no right or wrong way to play the game. There is no such thing as "true fantasy" (which, by the way, is the stupidest proclamation I have come across in all my days) and as long as whatever person is having fun playing whatever character they want to play it's a good character. That's the point of the game, remember? To have fun. Or have you all forgotten this in your desire to be the geeks amongst geeks? Ain't none of us cool so stop trying to be the coolest geek at the gaming table. It's like trying to be the best bearded lady of all the bearded ladies at the circus. The sheer arrogance is both disgusting and astounding. I have news for you: None of us are original. Whatever "super-cool" idea we come up with has been done a hundred times before and a hundred times better. Y'ain't as cool and superior as you like to think you are. In other words: Get over yourselves. Stop worrying about what the other guy is doing because as cool as you might think you are, there's someone out there who thinks your super-original true fantasy mega-character is the lamest thing ever puked onto a character sheet.
Corinthians 11-17-05, 04:44 AM	Oh no, you got anime in my D&D! You got chocolate in my peanut butter! So anime is getting into the game. Lets see, I guess that means the game is getting face paced, cinematic, with mature story lines that generally are aimed at people older than 12? And this is a *BAD* thing? :confused: I have no idea where you get the idea that most anime isn't produced to be geared towards children, because it is, despite what your local fan club president may tell you.
Tenzhi 11-17-05, 04:51 AM	I have no idea where you get the idea that most anime isn't produced to be geared towards children, because it is, despite what your local fan club president may tell you. Not that such should matter one way or the other to anyone involved with D&D, which is essentially "playing pretend."
Shedeo 11-17-05, 05:55 AM	Very true, a lot of anime is made for children. A lot of it isnt. I am very openminded about a lot of character concepts, and I realize one thing about a good roleplayer who makes a character, even if they are entirely based on a character (anime or otherwise.) Commonly, the character concept changes as the adventures progress. Besides, you can create a character that is quite similar to another character, in such a different way that both are cool for their individual reasons. A prime example of this are the characters Dante (Devil May Cry) and Alucard (Hellsing.) Both like red and wield two large pisols, one black the other silver. Are they the same? No. Now, the group that I play with is pretty standard in their characters, but at the same time not. One of them plays a character heavily influenced by the aforementioned Alucard. However, he's recently made some changes saying that the two were "too similar." They may have used to dress similarly, but they never acted anything alike. He never complained that he was eaten and covered in nasty plant goo once we defeated the monster. In fact, it was good for RP options because his old war buddy was so concerned that, well, he jumped in after him. It was a really good rp session. Here's a good example. We used to use BESM d20, the anime roleplaying system for this individual campaign setting, but once one of our former players broke the system, we stopped using it. We had a problem taking one of the characters from BESM to DnD. How did we fix it? He's a Half-Celestial that is taking levels in Warlock. We play in a very Constantine campaign setting, so this works out well. Also, the previous character had eyebeams, and so Eldritch Blast works well for him as well. Overall, it can be a good thing, or a bad thing that anime is leaking in depending on how mature your players are about it. P.S. Hearing about players that arent interested in roleplaying is somewhat of a shock to me because all 8 of my players roleplay their characters very well.
HamHam 11-17-05, 09:09 AM	I have no idea where you get the idea that most anime isn't produced to be geared towards children, because it is, despite what your local fan club president may tell you. Right... that's why most of it has to be censored before they'll even put it on late-night television. Off the top of my head: Ghost in the Shell Akira Cowboy Bebop Paranoia Agent Fooly Cooly Hellsing All of these are probably PG 13 in both content and ideas.
Sulaco 11-17-05, 09:19 AM	The influence, like all things cultural, is mutual, of course. It would be hard to argue that Record of Lodoss War was not influenced by D&D, especially if you knew its history. I do know it's history, but that is simply adapting material to a medium not an influence on the medium as a whole. That is like saying that movies are influenced by Frankensetin cos Frankenstein was made into a movie.
Sulaco 11-17-05, 09:28 AM	I am going to run an Elf like a Legolas elf,...is there any PrC that can shoot arrows while sliding down the stairs on a shield....can I make up a PrC that is like a Legolas Elf? In other words, how is this problem actually related to anime? It is not solely related to anime, but at least Legolas and LotR are in the same genre (Fantasy) as D&D. The problem IMO is not "I want to play a PC inspired by Character X" but rather "I want to play Character X". It is worse cos sometimes people say the former but mean the latter.
Sulaco 11-17-05, 09:35 AM	Do I even need to point out how stupid that statement is in light of the fact that that's exactly how any character is played? "How would this character react in this situation..." The difference is that when playing D&D the question should indeed be "How would this character react in this situation" but when running a carbon-copy of an existing character the question becomes "How would that character react in this situation." It's the difference between Howard Cosell doing the sports report and Rich Little doing an impression of Howard Cosell doing the sports report. A PC which is solely an attempt to recreate an existing character is at best a mere impression and at worst a caricature.
Dragonchild 11-17-05, 09:45 AM	I have no idea where you get the idea that most anime isn't produced to be geared towards children, because it is, despite what your local fan club president may tell you.Wow. I've actually worked with people in the anime industry, so some of these comments really make me chuckle. Um, no, most anime are not geared towards children, I assure you.
Jabberwock761 11-17-05, 10:06 AM	Other than airships, what are the characteristics of Eberron that render it anime-like or Magic-like? More specifically, how is Eberron distinctly more about money-grubbing than the generic line books or FR, which has new books coming out for it about twice as fast as Eberron does? I don't think that Eberron is any more or less anime-like than any other campaign setting, but I do think it has more in common with the feel of M:tG. Perhaps I'm seeing this is as projection of the fact that people (a corporations are just a collective people) do/use/talk about what they know. The abundance of magic, and especially the abundance of magical constructs and relics, seem to have a certain "M:tG" feel to it. You probably took the time to respond to my post because you were offended by my statement; please, don't be. My deepest sympathy goes to those that fail to understand that individuals and corporations that use and understand the concepts of capitalism will be those who are successful. I don't think Eberron is any more "money-grubbing" than any of the other D&D products marketed by Wizards. And with regards to Wizards seeking money through marketing products they feel will be popular, all the more power to them! They're a corporation, seeking money is the point. And since I rather enjoy their product, I hope they become the next Microsoft. M:tG is an extremely popular product line, and my statement of "Here it comes! The Magic dynasty is about to expand it's empire" was just my hypothesis of one of the steps Wizards and Hasbro were going to take next. When Hasbro bought TSR, I also said "Thank goodness. Now the D&D rules are going to be streamlined into a ruleset that undergraduates can understand! Yah!" Wizards created in M:tG a ruleset both simple enough that anyone could learn, but complicated enough to challenge even veterans; I knew they could do it again. Jeez! After lecturing you poor folks that long, no homework tonight! :dancin:
Socrates of Sigil 11-17-05, 10:21 AM	EVERYTHING has a place in D&D, roleplaying games are by thier very nature..open ended. That said D&d was originally designed to be the unoffical Lord of the Rings Roleplaying game, and I would kinda ruin the battle of the Pelinor Feilds if you have a lil japanese colored puff ball jumping around between Orcs, Mamikil, Theodin and the Witch -King....... my point...It all about flavor. psionics dont work in some settings...like Authurian Ficton....some they do like Dark Sun or Planescape... The same goes with anamie ts all about flavor and contex....a stoic samurai fighting a duel of honor.... a monk contemplating enlighenment high in the majestic mountains... thats one type of oreintal fantasy and an appealing one at that...anaime is another personally ( i know im gonna get hell for this) i despise anamie.i like classic medival fantasy like LoTR, DragonLance, Forgotten Realms etc. Although i do has some interest in placesacpe and Dark Sun....even a LITTLE spelljammer ..anamie just does nothing at all for me but remember the DM is always right..
Jabberwock761 11-17-05, 10:42 AM	Sorry there a_psh. All that post and no reason for the original to be found. The reason for my original post is to tell my reasoning on why anime is completely legitimate in D&D: It's the players time, so give them a product they want. That said, the DM might not like certain things in his game, and that's fair too. If the player(s) and DM can't get along, life's too short to waste on such matters. I had a player once that kept saying "I cut his head off!" every time he rolled for attack, and became upset when I explained he needed to roll for damage. "But I cut off his head," he whined. Obviously, automatically "cutting his head off" on every attack and performing planet-destroying martial arts techniques at level 1 are not elements of the average D&D game. But, if a player wants to play a character inspired by "D" or "Goku" on a character level as opposed to super-hero powers level, I'd see nothing wrong with that at all in one of my games. If the DM wants a game with planet-destroying martial arts techniques and jumping to the moon, that's good too. :D I'll have to agree with the observation that was made earlier: The thread-creator appears to be frustrated and anime-worn. This thread was probably his way of venting. Gotta get it out somehow! a_psh, I hope I answered your questions!
babysamurai 11-17-05, 10:45 AM	but remember the DM is always right.. ...except when their wrong.
eudas 11-17-05, 11:17 AM	At the risk of being severely off-topic, the authors of the following two posts (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7776762&postcount=120, http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7776920&postcount=122) need to read this comic (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=171). :devil: eudas
a_psh 11-17-05, 11:24 AM	The same goes with anamie ts all about flavor and contex....a stoic samurai fighting a duel of honor.... a monk contemplating enlighenment high in the majestic mountains... thats one type of oreintal fantasy and an appealing one at that...anaime is another Err, minor correction: anime isn't necessarily another type of oriental fantasy. It could just as easily be the first type that you describe, or sci-fi, or the equivalent of a sitcom or soap. Basically, saying "anime" is like saying "TV shows" - sure, there tends to be a sort of average or baseline style that one can talk about, but the category is really too broad to make any definitive statements about what anime is or is not, other than something that's animated and from Japan. Also, a lot of anime is decidedly non-Asian in focus. Vaguely Medieval-ish European-y worlds (which is what D&D is about, most of the time) and modern European nations are both fairly popular. So, for example, there's a show called Berserk (which I haven't seen), which looks like someone's average D&D campaign, except it's mostly about one guy turning into a demon-slaying vagabond. While there certainly may be a few charcteristic touches that make it obviously Japanese in the implementation, that's a storyline that's basically 0% "oriental fantasy". Now, if I was running a vanilla D&D game and someone walked up to me and said "I wanna play that guy in your game," I would slap 'em; but I'd do it because they were ripping off a character, not because it was somehow obviously something that didn't fit. So, basically, anime's not a genre. One can't really make genre-type judgments about it the way one can about, say, American space-based sci-fi TV shows. One can only talk about more specific subsets or judge it as a medium, much like one would talk about TV shows in general.
q'afuu 11-17-05, 11:33 AM	It is not solely related to anime, but at least Legolas and LotR are in the same genre (Fantasy) as D&D. As I'm sure you know, anime is not a genre though. In fact - I'm hardly the first to point this out - it spans over just about any and every genre out there. The problem IMO is not "I want to play a PC inspired by Character X" but rather "I want to play Character X". It is worse cos sometimes people say the former but mean the latter.If not the problem, this is at least a large component of it, yes. Simply wait for another (super)heroic movie to be released and the boards get flooded with posts statting out the main characters. personally ( i know im gonna get hell for this) i despise anamie.i like classic medival fantasy like LoTR, DragonLance, Forgotten Realms etc. Not about to give you hell, but that's like saying you despise cartoons or comics or even books or movies in general. 'Anime' is a medium, not a genre. There are plenty of classic medieval fantasy anime out there, even if most (but not all) have an oriental flavour.
Telis_the_Deadeye 11-17-05, 11:39 AM	I only apologize when an apology is merited. I don't deny being a pompous echo. E-C-H-O isn't how you spell the other word for donkey. It's merited. Rick was offering his take on anime in his game and being polite about it and you came along and ripped hima new one cuz you don't like being told to be original. Or maybe we found the guy he banned from playing a he-man character and your still upset. :tissue: Stop ripping on people just cuz you've got DM issues. So what if Saluco and Rick don't like stolen characters? How does that hurt you? I wouldn't care if I was told I couldn't play Naruto. I wouldn't want to play something someone else made upo anyway. I like being unique. If you have no creativity to do that, I'm sorry for you. But that gives you no right to be a butt-head to everyone who can. Is this attitude because you aren't allowed to have a chobit or a mew-mew as a cohort? Are you upset because your character isn't getting lucky? Why worry about it? If they never get any, you'll be able to play them more acurately. Maybe if you have to attack everyone who says anything bad about anime, even saying they love it but don't let it in there game, you should check into a rehab clinic cuz I think your suffering some kind of addiction. And just for the record, yes, I am being a jerk cuz you deserve it and noone else here seems to want to tell you off! If you flame people I think are cool, I'll flame you right back. :pbbbtt:
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 11:47 AM	It is not solely related to anime, but at least Legolas and LotR are in the same genre (Fantasy) as D&D. However, anime isn't a genre. Calling it a genre is like calling books a genre. Now, Naruto might not belong to the medievalish fantasy genre, but I actually thought of a pretty neat Naruto-inspired character for a totally normal fantasy campaign while reading this thread.
rkr1970 11-17-05, 01:01 PM	And just for the record, yes, I am being a jerk cuz you deserve it and noone else here seems to want to tell you off! If you flame people I think are cool, I'll flame you right back. :pbbbtt: There's no need to get nasty. I'm sure after seeing 4 or 5 other people agree with me on the "inspired by vs. carbon copy" issue, he's realizing his view is the exception rather than the rule. If someone needs to vindicate their position in light of this opposition, they will succeed only in securing a place of honor as a representative of The Lollipop Guild :D . Nice use of innuendo, though. Kudos on that! :cool: As for the 'genre vs. medium' battle about to brew, let me say a few words before the flames fly... There are some genres of anime that I have no use for, the previously mentioned "teen-spank-toons" being the largest group. (I know that this is technically 2 or 3 genres lumped together based on similarity of content, but I think everyone here understands why they could be so lumped for this discussion. Most anime fits into 2 or 3 categories anyway.) Be they scantily clad girls fighting the forces of evil while trying to find a boyfriend, or a poor guy surrounded by hot girls who are all interested in him, I find neither to be of much interest to me. Most of this stuff is only around to aid young men in "releasing tension" anyway. The best stuff for gaming, IMHO, is the "Serial Combat" genre. A tougher opponent every battle. Growing in power as you defeat them. THIS is like D&D. You start off fighting kobolds and end up in a titanic struggle against a whole brood of dragons. Some of the shows are more applicable to D&D than others, but the concept is recognizable through out. This is even more applicable when mixed with the "Group of Buddies Out to Save the Day" genre. As for the "Giant Mecha", the "Kung-Fu of the Gods", or the "Cutesie Critters" genres, I don't see any D&D applications. I enjoy the first two, and might play in a game using a system developed specifically for these genres, but I wouldn't feel like I was playing D&D if a Gundam walked though town (a giant maybe, but not a 450 ft. golem), a martial artist could "learn" to fly by harnessing his Ki, or even worse, some psudo-animal ran up and made a noise like its own name so you can put it in a container and carry it in your pocket. This is how I feel about the impact I might allow on a game I even play in. I might actually quit if the DM threw in too many pop-culture references to feel like an immersive, unique world. Even saying "you hear off to Mordor" is an unwelcome pop reference UNLESS we're playing in a Middle-Earth campaign. Using the medium of anime, or movies, TV, books, whatever, for inspiration is great. I say get inspired where you can. But certain genres of anime are probably better off left on the screen. Certainly certain movies are. I doubt I could take my own character seriously if I found myself in the same world as the first D&D movie. I certainly wouldn't be able to get into my character if another player had a barbarian named "Bobby" who carried a big club and hung out with a baby unicorn! Sorry if I'm not using the correct terms for these genres, but I've never heard the proper terms for most of them. Thought I'd let you know, if it looks like a made-up term, it probably is! :D
Millennium 11-17-05, 01:13 PM	Now, Naruto might not belong to the medievalish fantasy genre, but I actually thought of a pretty neat Naruto-inspired character for a totally normal fantasy campaign while reading this thread. Interesting; details? I've been toying around with ideas for a Naruto d20, based on the basic Naruto idea that everyone is a ninja. They just are, even the guy running the ramen stand on the corner. Because of this, class doesn't represent your occupation, but your training around various arts. A typical low-ranking genin might be a Taijutsu 3/Genjutsu 1, for example. Medic and Summoner are PrCs, as are some of the more specialized arts like puppeteering. Bloodline clans are based on bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana. So far it's been an interesting experiment. I'm thinking of removing the D&D base and switching to a D20Modern base, but D&D has a much more cinematic and 'fantastical' feel which is giving me pause. My point is that for something like Naruto, the different archetypes don't line up along the same lines that they do in D&D, and so the "Shinobi PrC" folks are ultimately misguided because they're attempting to do a class which has to be more or less able to do anything, depending on how it's role-played. What Naruto really needs is its own system.
rkr1970 11-17-05, 01:19 PM	Interesting; details? I've been toying around with ideas for a Naruto d20, based on the basic Naruto idea that everyone is a ninja. They just are, even the guy running the ramen stand on the corner. Because of this, class doesn't represent your occupation, but your training around various arts. A typical low-ranking genin might be a Taijutsu 3/Genjutsu 1, for example. Medic and Summoner are PrCs, as are some of the more specialized arts like puppeteering. Bloodline clans are based on bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana. So far it's been an interesting experiment. I'm thinking of removing the D&D base and switching to a D20Modern base, but D&D has a much more cinematic and 'fantastical' feel which is giving me pause. My point is that for something like Naruto, the different archetypes don't line up along the same lines that they do in D&D, and so the "Shinobi PrC" folks are ultimately misguided because they're attempting to do a class which has to be more or less able to do anything, depending on how it's role-played. What Naruto really needs is its own system. BESM has a very cinematic d20 system that might work. It's already set up for the "everyone in the universe has this level of power" type game. It's meant to be a more self-balancing, psudo-superhero system anyway. But no matter what system you use, don't forget to include action points. They are VERY cinematic.
Xanthia 11-17-05, 01:42 PM	It is not solely related to anime, but at least Legolas and LotR are in the same genre (Fantasy) as D&D. The problem IMO is not "I want to play a PC inspired by Character X" but rather "I want to play Character X". It is worse cos sometimes people say the former but mean the latter.Right. I had a thread about a new guys who wanted to learn to play D&D who wanted to play as Cloud. Not *like* Cloud, but *as* Cloud. And he wouldn't have it any other way. If someone uses an anime character's traits/apprearance/weapon or any other single merit as inspiration for their character, that's fine. It's when they want to make their character an exact copy of the anime character that gives us problems. If they did, for example try to make a exact copy of Tetsuo Shima, they can go ahead. However, a 1st level Human Psion isn't going to wreak nearly as much havoc as Tetsuo did (if it were a 12th level Kobold Psion, that might be different). But my point is (and I do have one) that basing a character off of an anime is okay, but allowing the player to make clones of ehat he/she sees is not only bad for a developing imagination, but it sets them up for a real dissapointment (once they learn that their characters can't jump over buildings or punch through walls they might feel as if you're against them, although it's clearly in the rules that those things are above their power).
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 01:56 PM	Interesting; details? CG human warlock, who gains his powers from the powerful demon lord sealed inside his body. As he goes up in level, he learns to harness more and more of the demon's powers. There. An anime-inspired character for a perfectly normal campaign. As others have already said, the problem lies with the player wanting to make an exact copy of a character (or just play as that character), not with where the character is from.
Jabberwock761 11-17-05, 02:33 PM	I just figured I'd add to the discussion about "stealing" characters. For an exellent official character rip-off, please consult your copy of Lost Empires of Faerun, pages 17-21, under the heading "Magelord". Maybe the drugs ain't working the morning, but does the little story from Rimmen the magelord sound like...oh...the backstory of Capt. Jack Sparrow from a certain pirate movie. They thought my magic was weak, so they ran me off & now I'm back for revenge - They took my ship because they thought I was weak & now I'm back for revenge. Then there's that picture on page 19. Hi, Johnny!! :tongue: And if the Wizzies can do it, I'm going to go make a new NPC for my game! I'll name him Shinobin. He'll be able to fire soul-buckshot from his fingers, and he'll wield a sword named Excalibin, or maybe twin scimitars (I need to decide). I think I'll introduce him just after the heroes save the princess from the fire-breathing dragon, while one of the girls is taking a shower! Aha ha ha!!! :D
Deven Firewalker 11-17-05, 02:42 PM	I am going to run an Elf like a Legolas elf,...is there any PrC that can shoot arrows while sliding down the stairs on a shield....can I make up a PrC that is like a Legolas Elf? In other words, how is this problem actually related to anime? I don’t think that is a true statement. First of all I am trying to run a campaign that is more based off of Seven Samurai and Shogun than Neruto. Now I think it can easily go with out saying that there is a night and day difference between Shogun and Neruto. Simply put Neruto is “High Fantasy” and supernatural abilities flying out of everywhere. With that said, can I say to my player “no you can’t run a ninja/sorcerer that looks like a Neruto ninja” No I really can’t. One of the Role Play PC’s called me up yesterday and said that he was really looking forward to running a “real oriental adventure game but player x and y just wants to run anime ****.” The reason why 3 of the 5 players wanted me to run an OA game so bad is because I am very knowledgeable about Japan and the east (studying it for 8 years). But when you have a mixed bag of “super anime Kewl Dood” and “real Samurai with real issues to deal with” you are going to run into problems. (I know this because I have seen it a few times in different games) The simply truth of the matter is that I don’t want to make PrC’s or feats that help a character turn into an anime ninja, I don’t want to endorse that type of playing even more. (its bad enough in western games with Vampire Hunter D showing up twice as a fighter who does not talk much and hunts vampires) Now, I am not going to kick these players out because they are friends of mine. They just get a wield hair every two campaigns or so. These two players also happen to be the most vocal if a character dies. In regards to the Legolas statement...its called shot on the run and a balance check.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-17-05, 04:12 PM	but I wouldn't feel like I was playing D&D if a Gundam walked though town (a giant maybe, but not a 450 ft. golem), What about a giant being mentally controled by a wizard who uses him in battle? That's basically Gigantor. a martial artist could "learn" to fly by harnessing his Ki, No Warlocks or Battle Sorcerers in your game, huh? or even worse, some psudo-animal ran up and made a noise like its own name so you can put it in a container and carry it in your pocket. So do I get a free first level feat to replace my familiar? Basically, I think you may be a little too closed minded to play DnD with most people. I mean really even Sulaco, who is on your side for reasons I cannot fathom was unable to keep himself from referencing Futurama in this thread.
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 04:47 PM	With that said, can I say to my player “no you can’t run a ninja/sorcerer that looks like a Neruto ninja” No I really can’t. Why not?
Corinthians 11-17-05, 05:06 PM	Right... that's why most of it has to be censored before they'll even put it on late-night television. Off the top of my head: Ghost in the Shell Akira Cowboy Bebop Paranoia Agent Fooly Cooly Hellsing All of these are probably PG 13 in both content and ideas. What gives you the impression that I was talking about American children? The Japanese don't make anime for us, they make it for themselves. Our sensibilities are different from theres. Most anime produced, not all, most, is made for Japanese children, including some of the stuff you mentioned. I'm willing to bet American sensibilities are the last thing on the minds of the producers of any given anime.
Corinthians 11-17-05, 05:13 PM	Wow. I've actually worked with people in the anime industry, so some of these comments really make me chuckle. Um, no, most anime are not geared towards children, I assure you. I can only assume these people or companies in the anime industry you have worked with are not Japanese.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-17-05, 05:15 PM	What gives you the impression that I was talking about American children? The Japanese don't make anime for us, they make it for themselves. Our sensibilities are different from theres. Most anime produced, not all, most, is made for Japanese children, including some of the stuff you mentioned. I'm willing to bet American sensibilities are the last thing on the minds of the producers of any given anime. Okay, those are NOT made for Japanese children. Have you seen Hellsing? Akira? These are the shows they play at 9 at night. In Japan, animation is used the same way live action is used here -- for all forms of entertainment equally. Then again, I'm sure some ignorant guy in Japan saw Punky Brewster or Small Wonder and when on and on about how all American live action is for kids too.
Corinthians 11-17-05, 05:32 PM	Okay, those are NOT made for Japanese children. Have you seen Hellsing? Akira? These are the shows they play at 9 at night. In Japan, animation is used the same way live action is used here -- for all forms of entertainment equally. Then again, I'm sure some ignorant guy in Japan saw Punky Brewster or Small Wonder and when on and on about how all American live action is for kids too. Yea I know how prevalent animation is in Japan, doesn't change the fact that most animation produced in Japan is geared towards children. I'd imagine Hellsing and Akira were produced for the teenage crowd, I can't state for fact though. Small Wonder = bad show
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 05:51 PM	fact Pretty heavy word, that. Care to back your facts up? Most of the anime I've seen is clearly geared towards teenagers. Most of the anime I saw in Japan was not for children (the only one was Hello Kitty).
Corinthians 11-17-05, 06:08 PM	Pretty heavy word, that. Care to back your facts up? Most of the anime I've seen is clearly geared towards teenagers. Most of the anime I saw in Japan was not for children (the only one was Hello Kitty). How long were you in Japan?
BeyondFated 11-17-05, 06:10 PM	I must agree with The White Sorcerer and Vaalingrade Ashland, most anime is not for children. I can assure you, even though Naruto may look child friendly, It isn't. People die. People die in gory ways. People have hands shoved through their chests. People are stabbed to death, with a dagger held in a man's mouth. People have very large weapons lodged inbetween vertabrea. And that was only in the first 25 episodes. But I digress, please enjoy the rest of the topic.
feartheinvinceblehamster 11-17-05, 06:24 PM	Your homework for tonight is to rent and watch Spirited Away, Hime Mononoke, Cowboy Bebop: Knockin' on Heaven's Door and The one first episode disc of Vampire Princess Miyu every Blockbuster keeps. Either that, or your punishment is to watch Puny Puny Poemy with the volume cranked without reading the back of the box first. My personal favorites are: Princess Mononoke, Sprited away, and .hack//sign. I still think cowboy bebop is drivel, but that's just me, so don't burn me to death! I bought BESM about 9 months ago, and it's pretty balanced, in the context that everyone in the world would be overpowered-IN A DND GAME-this is the fundamental thing with anime-based games: a 1st level commoner(Citizen? Bystander?) could beat the tar out of a 1st level human fighter in fullplate and a giant fullblade.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-17-05, 06:54 PM	I bought BESM about 9 months ago, and it's pretty balanced, in the context that everyone in the world would be overpowered-IN A DND GAME-this is the fundamental thing with anime-based games: a 1st level commoner(Citizen? Bystander?) could beat the tar out of a 1st level human fighter in fullplate and a giant fullblade. If everyone is overpowered -- in what context are they overpowered?
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 08:10 PM	this is the fundamental thing with anime-based games: a 1st level commoner(Citizen? Bystander?) could beat the tar out of a 1st level human fighter in fullplate and a giant fullblade. Only if certain conditions are met. 1. The fighter must be male. 2. The commoner must be female. 3. The fighter must see the commoner naked.
The White Sorcerer 11-17-05, 08:11 PM	How long were you in Japan? 2 weeks. However, my friend was there for a year, and he agrees with me.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-17-05, 09:35 PM	I'd imagine Hellsing and Akira were produced for the teenage crowd, I can't state for fact though. Akira is most definitely not for the teenage crowd. It's geared for adults. Hell, it got an "R" rating in the U.S. It's at least as violent as Starship Troopers. (The movie. Not the book.)
Corinthians 11-17-05, 10:52 PM	Akira is most definitely not for the teenage crowd. It's geared for adults. Hell, it got an "R" rating in the U.S. It's at least as violent as Starship Troopers. (The movie. Not the book.) Where'd you get the idea that our standard for what is and isn't suitable for children is the same standard that the rest of the world adheres to? From what I remember, Tenchi Muyo showed up on Adult Swim, and that certainly was intended for a younger than adult audience in Japan.
Corinthians 11-17-05, 10:57 PM	2 weeks. However, my friend was there for a year, and he agrees with me. There is life outside of akihabara.
Leewei 11-17-05, 11:27 PM	I think it's fair to say that just about any form of entertainment will feature characters of the same apparent age as the audience for which it is being produced. Whether this is or is not true for Anime, no-one can deny that the overwhelming majority of main characters featured are kids and teenagers.
darkness ninja of light 11-17-05, 11:39 PM	I think the DM has every right to say "please make characters more suited to this world" if he wants to. It won't ruin their fun. He's said he likes anime so this isn't a case of "Oh anime is just for kids. I don't want it in my game." Certainly not all D&D fantasy is complete seriousness only an adult mind could appreciate either. I mean, if you want to run/play in a serious (broad sense of the word serious here) roleplaying game and you make PCs/NPCs with names like "Allimar" and "Jocelyn" (or somesuch fantasy sounding names), you would cringe every time another player mentioned his character's name of "Billy Bob". This is just like that. Certainly not all modern names fit with D&D. Certainly not all anime fits with D&D. Can all American/other country's tv shows perfectly work out when used as a base for D&D? If I dislike evil campaigns, does it mean I'm a close minded DM if I don't consent to running one if I find all my players want evil campaigns? How about Psion? 2.0? Vampire: The Masquerade? What about a giant being mentally controled by a wizard who uses him in battle? That's basically Gigantor. Well as far as I know Gigantor was remote controlled and he was also a robot, very technology/science based. A wizard controlling a Giant with magic is made of three completely fantasy elements. Certainly science fiction and fantasy can have "counterparts" without going into each other's territory. A wizard controlling a giant with magic is not necassarily "anime" just because an old anime came out that had a kid controlling a robot with science. No Warlocks or Battle Sorcerers in your game, huh? Certainly doesn't have to be. A lot of DMs use core only or only 3.0 and somesuch. It's their decision. Even then those players didn't sound too much like they'd enjoy trying to play a Goku when their class says "Warlock" or "Battle Sorcerer". "What are these other spells? Why am I so weak? I wanna make a Goku!" I mean, it seems that by "anime characters' he isn't talking about them wanting Hayao Miyazaki-type characters, but more over the top kick-butt characters that you just aren't going to see in D&D for a NEW party. Give the Ninja his Naruto Prestige Class/Class and he'll be upset that he can't do an Art of the Doppleganger till at LEAST 15th level (or so). So restrictive is the power level of D&D. So do I get a free first level feat to replace my familiar? Now how is a familiar anything like Pokemon and Digimon and all those other "monster" animes? Familiars don't squawk their names, fit into tiny little balls (and rarely your pocket), and fight your battles for you. In addition, even if the OP HATED pokemon or anime or somesuch, I doubt he or anyone would think they were anything alike or think of getting rid of them. The OP doesn't hate anime leaking into D&D so much that he's going to reduce the game to bare skeletons of what is left when everything referenced in any anime is taken away. In any case, I don't think he's too close minded to DM in D&D. Like you say in another thread, Vaalingrade, it IS D&D, whether or not he plays it differently than you do. Not everything works in one system and it certainly is constrained even more with differing playing styles. To the OP: I say just play a game or two or three of BESM (or however you write it) and have their anime fix, then see if they'll be more willing to have a different sort of hero next time. If not, uh...I don't know. Keep playing bESM (beSM? BEsM? How does it go?) and maybe see if anyone else you can find wants to play traditional D&D.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-17-05, 11:48 PM	Now how is a familiar anything like Pokemon and Digimon and all those other "monster" animes? They are a annimal that is pointlessly and in erringly loyal and bonded to you. Familiars don't squawk their names, Speak with master makes them speak a 'secret' language with thier master. Could sound like thier name. fit into tiny little balls (and rarely your pocket), Familiar Pocket spell. and fight your battles for you. alter Self + Share spell In any case, I don't think he's too close minded to DM in D&D. I said play, not DM. 'I'll walk out if the DM references pop culture too much' tells me that. Like you say in another thread, Vaalingrade, it IS D&D, whether or not he plays it differently than you do. When did I say otherwise.
The White Sorcerer 11-18-05, 12:35 AM	There is life outside of akihabara. For the record, I've never been to Akihabara. Besides, the time I spent in Japan shouldn't matter. I state my opinions based on what I've experienced and perceived. You, however, state things as facts. Those require some backing up.
Tenzhi 11-18-05, 12:51 AM	The difference is that when playing D&D the question should indeed be "How would this character react in this situation" but when running a carbon-copy of an existing character the question becomes "How would that character react in this situation." In either case, unless you are playing yourself, the reaction is secondhand and therefore the difference is moot. E-C-H-O isn't how you spell the other word for donkey. It's merited. Rick was offering his take on anime in his game and being polite about it and you came along and ripped hima new one cuz you don't like being told to be original. He didn't come off as very polite to me. From my perspective I was simply echoing his attitude. Nor do I think I was particularly "flamey" or that I ripped anyone a new anything. Perhaps if they had an ego made of tissue paper, but I assume that rkr1970 is made of sterner stuff. But you can go right ahead and "flame" me, if that's what you were doing. So what if Saluco and Rick don't like stolen characters? How does that hurt you? I wouldn't care if I was told I couldn't play Naruto. I wouldn't want to play something someone else made upo anyway. I like being unique. If you have no creativity to do that, I'm sorry for you. But that gives you no right to be a butt-head to everyone who can. The reverse is also true - if someone likes to play pre-existing characters and doesn't care about being unique, that doesn't give one the right to be a "butt-head" to them. I believe that is the over-arching point here. I'm sure after seeing 4 or 5 other people agree with me on the "inspired by vs. carbon copy" issue, he's realizing his view is the exception rather than the rule. I'm used to being exceptional.
Rauric 11-18-05, 01:05 AM	Isn't Japan the place where you can buy used girls undies in a vending machine? I think their sensibilities of what their kids can watch might be different than Americans. Unless I am wrong and they are incredibly uptight and strict about what their kids can watch. Any ideas on this folks?
rkr1970 11-18-05, 01:36 AM	Isn't Japan the place where you can buy used girls undies in a vending machine? I think their sensibilities of what their kids can watch might be different than Americans. Unless I am wrong and they are incredibly uptight and strict about what their kids can watch. Any ideas on this folks? Actually Japan, like 90% of the rest of the world, has very open sexual attitudes. America still suffers from puritanistic veiws on many subjects. Many Japanesse feel that it is inappropriate to veiw the mother one's childeren in a sexual manner, so the couple engages in "paid dating". She gets paid by other men for her attentions while he takes that money to spend on a different woman for her time. This is not considered prostitution in the traditiopnal sense, as it's rarely about sex, although sex may be involved. And, since money has changed hands, it's also not considered cheating but rather a simple business transaction. I don't claim to understand the attitude, but if it floats their boats, more power to 'em! Interestingly enough, in Germany sexual content on TV is considered the norm while violence in almost any form is abohred. You can't kill other people in most German video games, although aliens, monsters that aren't very human-like, and robots of all types are fair game. When Bill Clinton was caught cheating, people around the world cried out with a resounding "So what?" They didn't see where a man of power having a mistress was at all unexpected (and in many parts of the world it's expected and acceptable). All in all, it's not the Japanesse who have different sensibilities than the rest of us. It's Americans who are the odd balls.
Tenzhi 11-18-05, 01:39 AM	All in all, it's not the Japanesse who have different sensibilities than the rest of us. It's Americans who are the odd balls. That, at least, is something we can agree on.
rkr1970 11-18-05, 01:49 AM	Originally Posted by rkr1970 but I wouldn't feel like I was playing D&D if a Gundam walked though town (a giant maybe, but not a 450 ft. golem), What about a giant being mentally controled by a wizard who uses him in battle? That's basically Gigantor. Quote: a martial artist could "learn" to fly by harnessing his Ki, No Warlocks or Battle Sorcerers in your game, huh? Quote: or even worse, some psudo-animal ran up and made a noise like its own name so you can put it in a container and carry it in your pocket. So do I get a free first level feat to replace my familiar? Basically, I think you may be a little too closed minded to play DnD with most people. I mean really even Sulaco, who is on your side for reasons I cannot fathom was unable to keep himself from referencing Futurama in this thread. I'm sure you know what I mean... :rolleyes: Flying magic users are fine, but a monk who can jump across planets is another thing. And if the DM had Picachu show up in the middle of a serious game, I'd probably have to hurt him very badly... :D
Tenzhi 11-18-05, 01:59 AM	And if the DM had Picachu show up in the middle of a serious game, I'd probably have to hurt him very badly... :D But it's the natural result of an insane wizard breeding Osquips with Shocker Lizards.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-18-05, 02:13 AM	I'm sure you know what I mean... :rolleyes: Flying magic users are fine, but a monk who can jump across planets is another thing. Who said those guys are monks? They clearly have some inborne power that grants them powerful abilities once thy've trained it, right? That's a sorcerer. This is one of those 'rangers shouldn't use spells because Legolas didn't' things, isn't it?
rkr1970 11-18-05, 02:18 AM	Who said those guys are monks? They clearly have some inborne power that grants them powerful abilities once thy've trained it, right? That's a sorcerer. This is one of those 'rangers shouldn't use spells because Legolas didn't' things, isn't it? No... Actually this is one of those "I'm not sitting here watching your Goku-clone fight a Naruto-clone" things. 45 minutes of game wasted just to see who had cheated the best. It was definately one of those situations where the rest of the players would have been better off playing Uno... My objection to Ranger spells is that the ones in the book either aren't "rangery" enough or they lack the utility a front-liner would look for. The ranger spells in the Miniatures Handbook are much more useful though I've had to scavenge 4 or 5 off-brand d20 books for a more woodsy feel without so much druid overlap in the spells I allow the rangers I DM for. But it's the natural result of an insane wizard breeding Osquips with Shocker Lizards.Well... His insanity DOES explain why he carries them in his pocket, doesn't it? :D
narukagami 11-18-05, 03:14 AM	There is life outside of akihabara. Indeed. I just wanted to chime in while the subject was on the whole, "I've been to Japan so I'm right" stuff. See, the college I attend, live, and work at has a transfer agreement with a few English language schools around the world, this means I have the pleasure of making friends with people from all over the place. The majority of these agreements are with Japanese schools, if you haven't figured it out by now, yes, I'm getting at the fact I'm friends with quite a few Japanese International Students, and have been dating one for over a year now. Theres alot of teaching involved in our relationship, I teach them about America and they teach me about life in Japan and a little of the language on the side (best I can do thus far is count, introduce myself, tell my age, and a few other random words). They also taught me about the hillarious (at least I think so) Japanese-English slang, where they use random English words in their slang, most of which has really weird meanings. (Ex: the letter "H", by itself, is used to refer to perverts.) To get back to the point, I've learned alot about views on anime in Japan. Yes, it is used alot like live actors are used in America, there's anime for everyone from children to adults. Its also interesting to note they almost never call it "anime", they always refer to it as "animation", the whole English word, even when talking to each other in Japanese. Also, what we see as 'made for teens' really is made for children most of the time. Someone mentioned Naruto as being for teens because of its violence, guess what? Targeted to young boys between the ages 7-14. Also important to note, everything produced by, or seen in, Shonen Jump is intended for this target audiance. Japanese children are raised different than American children, I don't know whether to call it stricter morals or something else, but they don't freak out about blood, violence, or gore. My girlfriend actually started saying American children were 'emotionally weak' because Cartoon Network had to edit One Piece and Naruto to make them more kid friendly. Another thing to note to make all you Japanophiles sad, being called and Otaku is a bad thing, its an insult. When a Japanese person calls you one they're (usually) making fun of you. To say something about the actual subject, there's nothing wrong with a little anime-ish stuff mixed into D&D, as long as everyone is having fun. Now, its 3:30am here, hope my post made some sense, because it probably won't to me at all reading it tomarrow morning.
WolfHati 11-18-05, 03:21 AM	Remind me again what relevance this has to the problem of people making insipid anime inspired clones of fictional characters and wanting to play said characters in a D&D game that is being run in a setting completely improper for such a thing?
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-18-05, 03:25 AM	No... Actually this is one of those "I'm not sitting here watching your Goku-clone fight a Naruto-clone" things. 45 minutes of game wasted just to see who had cheated the best. It was definately one of those situations where the rest of the players would have been better off playing Uno... Wait, so its anime's fault if someone cheated in creating thier character? It's anime's fault that the DM doesn't give each character equal spotlight? No, it's the DM's fault for not running his game. My objection to Ranger spells is that the ones in the book either aren't "rangery" enough or they lack the utility a front-liner would look for. The ranger spells in the Miniatures Handbook are much more useful though I've had to scavenge 4 or 5 off-brand d20 books for a more woodsy feel without so much druid overlap in the spells I allow the rangers I DM for. You have a very... specific view of how the game needs to be played in your presence, don't you? Do you have a steady group? And if so, are they forced to tiptoe around yout tastes all the time? You're the DM, you run the game, yeah, but really there's got to be some understanding that everyone else is there to have fun too. Otherwise, here's how I see the game being played: You open a doc file in word, type up a story... then tell me which character I was.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-18-05, 03:33 AM	Another thing to note to make all you Japanophiles sad, being called and Otaku is a bad thing, its an insult. When a Japanese person calls you one they're (usually) making fun of you. I'll grant you the 'it's 3 in the morning issue, but what in the seven intelocking hells was the poiont of this? A troll. A flame? Its certainly there to cheese people off, but I'm not sure you realise that most of us are old enough to know enough culture to know what otaku means and old enough to realise that people pointing it out are just trying to be jackasses.
Tenzhi 11-18-05, 03:34 AM	Another thing to note to make all you Japanophiles sad, being called and Otaku is a bad thing, its an insult. When a Japanese person calls you one they're (usually) making fun of you. We have a word like that in America, as well: Geek. Oddly enough, us geeks happily accept the term for ourselves even while other people seem to think it's an insult. Remind me again what relevance this has to the problem of people making insipid anime inspired clones of fictional characters and wanting to play said characters in a D&D game that is being run in a setting completely improper for such a thing? Just a natural tangent of the discussion. Anyway, the "problem" itself is fairly irrelevant due to it's complete subjectivity.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-18-05, 03:42 AM	Remind me again what relevance this has to the problem of people making insipid anime inspired clones of fictional characters and wanting to play said characters in a D&D game that is being run in a setting completely improper for such a thing? Triple post because Blanetog's not here to smite elitism. It has not relevance because this whole thread has no relevance. People make your so called 'inappropriate' characters from everything they see. How many Captain Jack Sparrow PrCs did we get when Curse of the Black Pearl came out? How many Highlanders and how many wuxia ninjas? How many Gandalfs have you seen built and how many jedi? How about cyborgs and Blade? How about X-men -- Gambit, Wolverine, Storm? Superman Returns and Narnia are coming out soon. By the looks of things, some people are going to be very misterable about the people having fun with these at thier table. How many have you personally toyed with building? Don't tell me you haven't. Roleplaying is acting and Robin Williams once said that acting is just adding your own spin to an impression. Like I said, the kind of people that play this game, we love our references. Its part of our culture. The game is about having fun pretending to be someone else. And truth be told, we're not all award winning character designers. So its either loosly base on a character you know, or 'play your alignment'.
Millennium 11-18-05, 08:59 AM	Isn't Japan the place where you can buy used girls undies in a vending machine? I think their sensibilities of what their kids can watch might be different than Americans. Unless I am wrong and they are incredibly uptight and strict about what their kids can watch. Any ideas on this folks? It's not so much that Japan doesn't have the same kinds of problems that the US does. It's that they have the opposite problems.
Sulaco 11-18-05, 09:13 AM	In either case, unless you are playing yourself, the reaction is secondhand and therefore the difference is moot. Not at all. In the former case you are playing your character - the one you created and defined - while in the latter case you are guessing how to play someone else's character. The difference is so basic and so fundamental that I never dreamed it was even debatable. My bad.
Dragonchild 11-18-05, 09:15 AM	I can only assume these people or companies in the anime industry you have worked with are not Japanese.*chuckle* No, they're all quite Japanese. In fact, I worked with them as an interpreter because they can't speak English. For example, I've worked with the Executive Producer of Record of Lodoss War and one of the Directors of Evangelion. But honestly, what's really pathetic here is that I have to actually drop cred to establish obvious facts. Isn't Japan the place where you can buy used girls undies in a vending machine?I visit Akihabara, the Geek Capital of the World, once a month. I've seen lots of strange things, indeed, but I've yet to run into one of those. In any case, I'd rather discuss D&D than shoot down ridiculous statements. . . which makes me realize. . . uh, maybe I shouldn't be in this thread. :eek:
Kyuketsukiouji 11-18-05, 10:27 AM	Wow. So much noise for such a simple problem... "The DM and the payers don't want to play the same style of game." Sit down. Talk to your players. Tell them what kind of style you have in mind. Listen to what kind of style they feel like playing. See if you can agree. If you can, play the game. If you can't, find other players. That was hard, wasn't it? None of this discussion about anime, ripping off existing characters from fictional sources, used underwear vending machines (yes, they exist), Legolas, anime as a medium or a genre (medium), or how long people have lived in japan (2 years in my case) has anything to do with the problem. And quite frankly, it's all academic. People have always ripped off fictional sources for their characters. Anime is just another, recently popular source for it. There's nothing new or inherently wrong with any of it. How many Raistlin clones or Drizz't clones are there out there? If you want to make a Kenshin clone, or a Gatz close, or a Naruto clone, how is that any different? It isn't. Some DMs (myself included) dislike it when players make obvious rip-offs. Some DMs don't. If everyone at the table is having fun, why should I care? Though I will allow myself to wander off-topic a bit and say that anyone who thinks anime is exclusively for kids is either willingly narrow-minded, or has had very limited exposure to japanse animation. I'd recommend Perfect Blue to anyone who honestly wants to dispel that particular myth. Unless you don't like psychological thrillers. And no, it's most certainly not for kids. Heck, even the poor maligned Sailor Moon (the manga, not the animation) had characters pondering the philosophical implications of reincarnation on self-identity (and yes, I am perfectly serious about this. It goes to show the kind of level of thought the japanese expect out of their children, I'd say).
trollbill 11-18-05, 10:38 AM	Who said those guys are monks? They clearly have some inborne power that grants them powerful abilities once thy've trained it, right? That's a sorcerer. This is one of those 'rangers shouldn't use spells because Legolas didn't' things, isn't it? You know, the more I think about it the more I think the closest base class to a typical Anime fighter would be a Psychic Warrior. Remind me again what relevance this has to the problem of people making insipid anime inspired clones of fictional characters and wanting to play said characters in a D&D game that is being run in a setting completely improper for such a thing? The whole problem really has nothing to do with Anime. By far, the real complaint here is the use of insipid pop(nerd)-culture inspired clones. Having a Narutu clone is no more insipid than having a Drizzt clone, a Harry Potter clone, a Legolas clone or a Wolverine clone. The only reason it looks like an Anime problem is because of the growing popularity of Anime. I’ve got nothing against using pop-culture for inspiration. Hell, my current LE Monk character was inspired by Vegita from DBZ, but you wouldn’t know it to look at him. Obvious Clones, though, show a distinct lack of originality and character personalization. They also detract from attempts to run a serious game. Though if you aren’t trying to run a serious one, I suppose it doesn’t really matter.
Dragonchild 11-18-05, 10:42 AM	The whole problem really has nothing to do with Anime. By far, the real complaint here is the use of insipid pop(nerd)-culture inspired clones. Having a Narutu clone is no more insipid than having a Drizzt clone, a Harry Potter clone, a Legolas clone or a Wolverine clone. The only reason it looks like an Anime problem is because of the growing popularity of Anime. I’ve got nothing against using pop-culture for inspiration. Hell, my current LE Monk character was inspired by Vegita from DBZ, but you wouldn’t know it to look at him. Obvious Clones, though, show a distinct lack of originality and character personalization. They also detract from attempts to run a serious game. Though if you aren’t trying to run a serious one, I suppose it doesn’t really matter.As far as I'm concerned, this wraps up the debate. Couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent post, trollbill.
rkr1970 11-18-05, 12:55 PM	Wait, so its anime's fault if someone cheated in creating thier character? It's anime's fault that the DM doesn't give each character equal spotlight? No, it's the DM's fault for not running his game. Not blaming anime... I'm blaming the morons, that DM in particular, who aren't MATURE enough for anime. A GOOD DM could add in elements of last night's CSI and the Super Bowl halftime show yet the players wouldn't notice that "they don't belong there" because they would feel as though they did. You have a very... specific view of how the game needs to be played in your presence, don't you? Do you have a steady group? And if so, are they forced to tiptoe around yout tastes all the time? You're the DM, you run the game, yeah, but really there's got to be some understanding that everyone else is there to have fun too. Otherwise, here's how I see the game being played: You open a doc file in word, type up a story... then tell me which character I was. The specific thing I seek is a level of suspention of disbelief. Glaring inconsistancies jar you back to full-blown reality and make the game less immediate. I'm an even harsher critic regarding any movie not specifically intended to be a comedy. I don't want to be taken "out of the moment". I play D&D for escapism. It's the same reason I read fiction, watch a lot of TV and movies, and attend plays. I don't necessarily need that fourth wall to be in place, but I gain very little enjoyment when someone starts kicking down the other three. If you tell me up front it's an anime-style, high-power, smart-mouthed, somewhat silly campaign, I would be fine with that if I had faith in the DM. I would actually EXPECT many of the things I said that I wouldn't want to see. But that wuold be the exception, not the rule. If you tell me it's going to be a serious Oriental Adventure game, then please don't have Yoh Asakura show up with Amidamaru and kick the party's butt. I will probably leave at that point, mostly because I don't feel that the serious feudal Japan campaign should be made to feel "cartoony". In the anime-style game, I might give the DM a dirty look if he started inserting too many real-world feeling things into his campaign as well.
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-18-05, 03:07 PM	The specific thing I seek is a level of suspention of disbelief. Glaring inconsistancies jar you back to full-blown reality and make the game less immediate. We play in a game where people are physically incapable of fighting with blade and butt of a guisarme, where if your movement is greater than the distance you jump, you hang in the air for six second, where no commoner is capable of existing on the money he makes, where the cultural concepts of good and evil are manafest and hate each other like Popeye and Bluto, and where someone who violates the laws of physics until they squeal to get thier morning coffee is unable to heal himself. Frankly, blue haired martial artist who can fly and has a pet monster is a much less glaring inconsistancy than the fact that the world is apperently a case study in quantum phenomina.
Shedeo 11-18-05, 10:03 PM	Here's what I did. I knew that my friend was making a near-carbon copy of Alucard from Hellsing. I wasnt quite happy about it, but alright, I'll allow it. However, what I did is I asked him questions about his character's background. He said that he'd think about it, but he'd have to rp him to see how he acted. Now, there's almost no similarities between the two apart from a male vampire that dual-wields guns. Another point is that a player that tries to play an exact replica of a pre-existing character is never going to be able to act exactly like that character. Also, the things that they encounter are different from what the base character encounter(s/ed). If a good player knows this, the character will eventually become something totally different. If the player is just wanting to play the character, not someone who will become "inspired by ______", then I'd have a problem. I guess what I just said was reiteration (sp?) but still. That's what I've seen in my experience with my campaign setting.
rkr1970 11-19-05, 12:39 AM	We play in a game where people are physically incapable of fighting with blade and butt of a guisarme, where if your movement is greater than the distance you jump, you hang in the air for six second, where no commoner is capable of existing on the money he makes, where the cultural concepts of good and evil are manafest and hate each other like Popeye and Bluto, and where someone who violates the laws of physics until they squeal to get thier morning coffee is unable to heal himself. Frankly, blue haired martial artist who can fly and has a pet monster is a much less glaring inconsistancy than the fact that the world is apperently a case study in quantum phenomina. That's all true, but the constancy of tone (along with an eye toward ignoring or altering any mechanic that no one at the table can swallow, like hanging for 6 seconds :rolleyes: ) helps mitigate a large portion of that. On the flip side, of course, is that even with the best game system, replete with full VR technology including visual, aural, and olfactorial elements, if playing in an Arthurian campaign with plagues, famine, and war it would grind to a halt when the players suddenly had to face a "vorpal bunny" or a hot chick in leather halter top armor screaming "Yiyiyiyiyi" as she throws her chakram around. Folks would hit the pause button and start yelling at the DM or programmer. If not worse! So while the system is inconsistant, those inconsistancies are consistant enough to make the whole thing systematically inconsitant as opposed to consistantly being unsystematic in its inconsistancies. (Yes... I know how ridiculous that sounds. But I read it 3 times and I THINK it makes sense)
rkr1970 11-19-05, 01:48 AM	For Vaalingrade Ashland's benefit, I wanted to show just some of what I've add to my players' ranger spell list. This is just the part of the list I started on this computer. There's a lot more on my laptop. I hope you agree that it feels more "rangery"... ;) Level 1 Animal Trick – Animal companion may perform a trick it does not know (MotW) Bloodhound – A failed track attempt may be tried again (MotW) Camouflage – +10 to Hide (SS) Chameleon Skin – Caster gains bonus to Hide checks (RR) Dawn – All sleeping creatures in the area awaken (MotW) Dowsing – Detects potable water within range (RR) Ears of the Wolf – +1/level to Listen (RR2) Exacting Shot – Ranged weapons strike true against favored enemies (Web) Guided Arrow – Ranged attacks ignore cover bonuses to AC (swift) (MH) Hawkeye – +5 to Spot, +50% to range increments (MotW) Lay of the Land – You gain an overview of the geography around you (PH) Lightfoot – You provoke no attacks of opportunity when moving (swift) (MH) Rabbit Feet – Grants +2/level to Move Silently (RR) Rankletaste – Bite attacks against subject cause nausea (Web) Remove Scent – Subject is untrackable with scent (Web) Level 2 Acorn of Far Travel – Bearer of acorn is considered in a forested area (Web) Blade Thirst – Weapon touched cuts or pierces deeper, inflicting more damage (RR2) Blades of Fire – Your melee weapons deal +1d6 fire damage for one round (swift) (MH) Bottle of Smoke – Creates a mount made of smoke (MotW) Briar Web – Thorny vines entangle target and may cause damage (MotW) Circle of Sounds – Allows those touched to speak via bird and animal sounds (RR) Curse of Impending Blades – Subject takes –2 penalty to AC (MH) Haste, Swift – Move faster, +1 attack, Reflex, AC for one round (swift) (MH) Liliandel’s Flurry – Transforms a single fire arrow into three (RR) Nature’s Favor – Target animal gains +1/2 level on attack and damage (MotW) Scent – Grants the scent ability (SS) Shocking Missile – Enchants an arrow or bolt to inflict 2d8+l electrical damage upon a successful hit (RR2) Surefooted Stride – In mountainous terrain, you move as though in open plains, and gain +2 on Climb (Web) Wolf’s Cry – Causes animal attackers to flee, imposes –1 attack penalty on intelligent foes (RR) (MH) – Miniatures Handbook (MotW) – Master’s of the Wild (PH) – Planar Handbook (RR) – Relics & Rituals (RR2) – Relics & Rituals II (SS) – Savage Species (Web) – WotC Web Site
Tenzhi 11-19-05, 02:26 AM	Not at all. In the former case you are playing your character - the one you created and defined - while in the latter case you are guessing how to play someone else's character. The difference is so basic and so fundamental that I never dreamed it was even debatable. In the former case you are making decisions based on your perception of the character, in the latter case you are making decisions based on... your perception of the character. If it's a matter of working for the results that's bothering you: it's generally easier to make a character from scratch than it is to try to wedge an existing character into the system, and it's certainly easier to play a character that comes from within than to second guess the motives and actions of a character that originates from without. Indeed, one could expound on the laziness of those who play their own "original" creations.
Shedeo 11-19-05, 03:01 AM	A thought popped in my head just now. Sometimes its best to let people play charaters inspired by or even based on the idea of a character from an outside influence, if they're new and arent quite that creative. Oft times this will help some of that creativity blossom later. Hopefully.
Rolof 11-19-05, 07:39 AM	I think all of us are guilty at one point or another of trying to convert our favorite movie/book/comic character into a D&D character. Anime just happens to be the latest fad the players are doing this with. I know that once 2nd ed came out with the psionicists handbook, I spent hours trying to figure out how to create a fighter/psionicist that would in some way duplicate a jedi-like D&D adaptation. I never did manage to get it right, so I never actually used it. Hmm... come to think of it, now that I'm playing 3.5 and there are feats that do cool things you couldn't do before, and magic weapons include the brilliant energy property, I just might work on it again. I think the biggest problem you're dealing with is immature players who want instant power. I once created a character loosely based on Vampire Hunter D, but I didn't go begging the DM for a talking hand, I just made a guy who used a bastard sword and used that kit out of the old handbook for Elves that hated undead. I think it's ok for players to be inspired by something for a character idea, as long as they don't try to take it to extremes and copy some megapower thing that would be rediculous in a D&D game.
Rake 11-19-05, 10:32 AM	Xanthia forgot to mention that the girl is also hideously ugly and could probably pass for a dwarf with a birth defect. Not just that either, players keep losing their pencils and dice to her personal field of gravity. Uh oh. Somebody forgot to ask himself "Does this post make me a douche?" before clicking on Submit Reply!
darkness ninja of light 11-19-05, 11:10 AM	We play in a game where people are physically incapable of fighting with blade and butt of a guisarme, where if your movement is greater than the distance you jump, you hang in the air for six second, where no commoner is capable of existing on the money he makes, where the cultural concepts of good and evil are manafest and hate each other like Popeye and Bluto, and where someone who violates the laws of physics until they squeal to get thier morning coffee is unable to heal himself. Frankly, blue haired martial artist who can fly and has a pet monster is a much less glaring inconsistancy than the fact that the world is apperently a case study in quantum phenomina. I don't see how balance reasons somehow make the game less internally consistant as far as the suspension of disbelief goes. If you wanted to use the butt of a guisarme your dm can make it an improvised bludgeoning weapon. I'm not sure what you mean by the blade though...it's quite obvious that you use that. Unless all commoners are untrained bums I don't see why they couldn't survive. Even the poor manage to survive even if they don't make enough money. The jumping thing I assume you exaggerate. Anyone who knows the system knows that the jump was a smooth motion. Saying you hang in the air for six seconds doesn't fit in with the system at all since everyone acts in the same six second time periods. Six seconds does pass by as you watch the others go. All that happens is that you find out what everyone else was doing at the time you made the jump. However, when you have the traditional medieval fantasy-type european world, it does NOT fit to have a blue haired flashy-dressing monk named Tetsuryu (or Stinkoman). It's quite clear to you that the person does not fit and came from the idea that the DM thought he was "cool" and apparantly likes anime. It would ruin any serious campaign. They are a annimal that is pointlessly and in erringly loyal and bonded to you. Indeed, though in much different ways are they bonded and loyal. Familiars won't leave if you abuse them, for instance. Speak with master makes them speak a 'secret' language with thier master. Could sound like thier name. Well, even in Pokemon everyone could understand each other's language as long as they could empathize. In any case, I think it's a bit of a stretch. It would also mean that all trainers/anyone who understands would have to be 5-6 level sorcerers or wizards. Same thing goes with familiar pocket, it's not core either so I don't know what that is. Summon Monster could probably do a better pokemon type thing than a familiar considering you can't normally have more than one without a prestige class (of which I can't think of any). Oh! What if you had a Sorcerer/Druid/Psion/Paladin? You could have a familiar, animal companion, psicrystal, AND a special mount! Brilliant! Misty: Ice Mephit! I CHOOSE YOU! Psicrystal: Psicrystal? Psi? Psi? Misty: Psicrystal! What are you doing!? I wanted Ice Mephit! You can't attack unless you have a headache.....and you don't even have a head! Psicrystal: Psi... Mwahahha my brilliance knows no bounds.
Telis_the_Deadeye 11-19-05, 01:58 PM	So while the system is inconsistant, those inconsistancies are consistant enough to make the whole thing systematically inconsitant as opposed to consistantly being unsystematic in its inconsistancies. That's messed up. True, but messed up. And it hurts my brain to read. I have to sig this!!!
Jancarius 11-20-05, 03:00 AM	I don't see how balance reasons somehow make the game less internally consistant as far as the suspension of disbelief goes. If you wanted to use the butt of a guisarme your dm can make it an improvised bludgeoning weapon. I'm not sure what you mean by the blade though...it's quite obvious that you use that. Unless all commoners are untrained bums I don't see why they couldn't survive. Even the poor manage to survive even if they don't make enough money. The jumping thing I assume you exaggerate. Anyone who knows the system knows that the jump was a smooth motion. Saying you hang in the air for six seconds doesn't fit in with the system at all since everyone acts in the same six second time periods. Six seconds does pass by as you watch the others go. All that happens is that you find out what everyone else was doing at the time you made the jump.I think he meant that the guisarme (or other reach weapons) don't provide any rules for switching to the haft and attacking. Of course, I rule that you can just switch it to fighting like a quarterstaff at a -2 to hit (for the balance difference). As for the jump hang, it still works that way mechanically. Though in flavor, you are jumping x distance over the 6 seconds (which is still an incredible amount of air time), mechanically, you are still jumping the entire 30 (or whatever) feet at the end of your initiative, and after that are 'at' that point. However, when you have the traditional medieval fantasy-type european world, it does NOT fit to have a blue haired flashy-dressing monk named Tetsuryu (or Stinkoman). It's quite clear to you that the person does not fit and came from the idea that the DM thought he was "cool" and apparantly likes anime. It would ruin any serious campaign.No, actually, I disagree completly. I don't know about the blue hair part (I require my players to have 'natural' hair colors for their races unless they are specifically dying it), but I see no problem having a flashy-dressed monk named Tetsuryu. For example, I had a human wizard named Shino (not related to the Naruto character of the same name, just using a Japanese name). He always tried to dress in fancy outfits (owned multiple noble's outfits), and had a Japanese name. But otherwise, he was a pretty normal human wizard. Did that ruin the game? No, I think not. Well, even in Pokemon everyone could understand each other's language as long as they could empathize. In any case, I think it's a bit of a stretch. It would also mean that all trainers/anyone who understands would have to be 5-6 level sorcerers or wizards. Same thing goes with familiar pocket, it's not core either so I don't know what that is. Summon Monster could probably do a better pokemon type thing than a familiar considering you can't normally have more than one without a prestige class (of which I can't think of any). If you really wanted to make a 'pokemon master' character, druid would be ideal. Oh! What if you had a Sorcerer/Druid/Psion/Paladin? You could have a familiar, animal companion, psicrystal, AND a special mount! Brilliant! Misty: Ice Mephit! I CHOOSE YOU! Psicrystal: Psicrystal? Psi? Psi? Misty: Psicrystal! What are you doing!? I wanted Ice Mephit! You can't attack unless you have a headache.....and you don't even have a head! Psicrystal: Psi... Mwahahha my brilliance knows no bounds. Okay, that was just hilarious, actually.
kajinoryu 11-20-05, 03:26 AM	I've had a few anime-inspired characters in my game that just didn't fit. OK... I have one guy who keeps (he's still at it every now and then, just less fervently) trying for Inuyasha. Sorcerer/Fighter, but the basics are always the same. I find that the best way of discouraging a player from expecting some high-powered character using a special set of rules just because is to enforce the rules of the game. Trying not to brutalize it in the process. Some changes you can make cosmetic (in this case it was some kind of claw attack, so we just changed the damage type and attack roll for shocking grasp). He doesn't try the whole leap 30 feet into the air and cut at the enemy bit anymore, jumping to him is a waste of skill points. Some problems are going to occur out of a culture difference. We have enough wierd players that at least one or two of us every game gets strange looks from an NPC based upon what we just said or did.
Corinthians 11-20-05, 04:08 AM	I'll grant you the 'it's 3 in the morning issue, but what in the seven intelocking hells was the poiont of this? A troll. A flame? Its certainly there to cheese people off, but I'm not sure you realise that most of us are old enough to know enough culture to know what otaku means and old enough to realise that people pointing it out are just trying to be jackasses. Aww, does someone own a shirt with 'Otaku' plastered across the back?
lonesoldier 11-20-05, 04:49 AM	Otaku: In Japanese, a derogatory form of 'you' which also has the meaning of, roughly, 'no-life geek who spends all his time building GUNDAM models...' Be that as it may, in certain circles its meaning has evolved into a less perjorative term, namely, 'huge anime fan who is respected because he spends all his time building GUNDAM models...' I <3 google.
Jancarius 11-20-05, 05:45 AM	Actually, otaku literally means house. When written in katakana, which is how it is written in the context being discussed, it's meaning is as described above. HOWEVER it should also be noted that there is many kinds of otaku, and an otaku does not neccessarily mean that someone is a loser. However again, no American should call themselves otaku, they will probably think you are one of those gundam freaks. If you say 'print club otaku' or 'baseball otaku' or whatever, you will indicate a strong interest in one of those things. It is approximately equivalent to saying 'I am a huge <activity> freak'.
darkness ninja of light 11-20-05, 10:26 AM	Actually, otaku literally means house. Well, to be specific it means both "you" and "house". Basically it means "your household". Something like that. Oh crap I just joined in the otaku discussion....... No, actually, I disagree completly. I don't know about the blue hair part (I require my players to have 'natural' hair colors for their races unless they are specifically dying it), but I see no problem having a flashy-dressed monk named Tetsuryu. For example, I had a human wizard named Shino (not related to the Naruto character of the same name, just using a Japanese name). He always tried to dress in fancy outfits (owned multiple noble's outfits), and had a Japanese name. But otherwise, he was a pretty normal human wizard. Did that ruin the game? No, I think not. Well the blue hair part is pretty important. As long as the Japanese name isn't obvious like Shino it could work, but names you see in anime all the time? It sticks out like a sore thumb. Plus, by flashy I don't mean like flashy noblemen's outfits, but I mean something pretty much out of this world. Eh, I can't explain it but I assume you know what I mean. Like, scantilly clad, materials you wouldn't find anywhere, clothes that just don't make sense. Something like that. Usually just a "modern" and "anime" style look. Even then, it doesn't "ruin the game" but it is bothersome if you wanted suspension of disbelief. I'm rather ashamed of my first D&D character Yumi. Her costume wasn't out of this world but the DM did make a comment about how it really didn't fit and I agree with that today. She was a terrible wizard too. In any case, she was one of those completly bubbly clutzy kind of anime girls. Oh, and her bow.....I'm not gonna even get into that. Ugh.....the shame... If you really wanted to make a 'pokemon master' character, druid would be ideal. I totally agree. Spontaneous summon monsters, animal companions, etc. and if your darling little Pikachu dies in battle you can always take the matter into your own hands with Wild Shape! Okay, that was just hilarious, actually. Why thank you! :D :D
Jancarius 11-20-05, 07:21 PM	Well the blue hair part is pretty important. As long as the Japanese name isn't obvious like Shino it could work, but names you see in anime all the time? It sticks out like a sore thumb. Plus, by flashy I don't mean like flashy noblemen's outfits, but I mean something pretty much out of this world. Eh, I can't explain it but I assume you know what I mean. Like, scantilly clad, materials you wouldn't find anywhere, clothes that just don't make sense. Something like that. Usually just a "modern" and "anime" style look. Even then, it doesn't "ruin the game" but it is bothersome if you wanted suspension of disbelief. I'm rather ashamed of my first D&D character Yumi. Her costume wasn't out of this world but the DM did make a comment about how it really didn't fit and I agree with that today. She was a terrible wizard too. In any case, she was one of those completly bubbly clutzy kind of anime girls. Oh, and her bow.....I'm not gonna even get into that. Ugh.....the shame...<shrug> I wouldn't see a problem with fancy or impractical outfits. Just have the world around them react accordingly. The aforementioned Shino was always having to buy new clothes, a consequence of dungeon crawling in formal wear (Mending can't fix ALL the damage). The more outlandish and fancy the outfit, the more the characters clothes cost. And when a girl character wants to wear scantily (read: Archetypical female fantasy) clothes, go ahead and let them. Of course, your armor is a hell of lot less effective when it's in bikini form, unless your facing the dreaded breastbane daggers +2. Either way, since I play in a world where if I really wanted to, I could just go buy a Hat of Disguise and change my clothes whenever I wanted to whatever I wanted, having strange and outlandsih outfits doesn't really bother me. I totally agree. Spontaneous summon monsters, animal companions, etc. and if your darling little Pikachu dies in battle you can always take the matter into your own hands with Wild Shape!Heh, that reminds me of a one shot we did this week. My WLD DMs step-dad, a 1.0 D&D PLAYTESTER came to DM a one shot for us. Me and my friend decided to play twin elven brothers. He was a wild-shaper druid and I was a polymorphing wizard. One of the other players made a crack the first time we went into battle: "Wonder twin powers, activate! Form of!"
Vaalingrade Ashland 11-20-05, 09:08 PM	Aww, does someone own a shirt with 'Otaku' plastered across the back? No, but I do have a shiny red button on every post that says 'report post to moderator'. :cool:
guru7892 11-20-05, 09:40 PM	One of the other players made a crack the first time we went into battle: "Wonder twin powers, activate! Form of!" "GIANT BUCKET OF ICE!!!!!" lol sigh* anyway whats this thread about? oh yeah, i know some anime nerds and they are WEIRD! i mean the only anime i have seen was flcl and that was WEIRD! anyway, if anime starts to get into your game, flamethrower. you can pick'em up at a army surplus store and you can just burn it all down. you should probably salt the land too because otherwise youll have tainted stuff groing for a while, damn ive seen some crazy chipmunks and they are near impossibly to blow away to hell at 150+ feet. drastic times call for drastic measures, and generally require large ammounts of fire and automatic weapons... hence the automatic weapons... j/k i was being a little overboard but, you need to ask how WEIRD! you want your game to get. now i dont mind dragons and doppele gangers and all that crazzy sh*** running around and stuff. heck ill except reinssance tech gnomesand stuff. but heres the top things that i dont like: (not a joke... well thats a lie...) 1. any act that degrades you, or others moraly including (but not limited to) cheap tactics, cheating, stealing, killing, killing indescrimently to avoid the UN, and being dumb. 2. the UN. (i should indescrimently kill all of them and not get charged at all... thats a joke to prove a point people don't get P0'd) 3. AWPers, auto-snipes, noob cannons and Monkey grip. 4. nerds that are out of touch with things (anime, pwners,ect) 5. liberals and conservitives... they should be more conservitive or liberal respectivly. 6. enviromentalists... its because of you that i dont care. 7. people who quote me and post in this thread saying "i hate you and your veiws" and post in this thread about it. PM ME!! 8. bears... they might eat me.. or worse.. my food. 9. those people that want intelligent creation or who the what in schools... not in a science class folks, theology its a-ok 10. afferimitve action, whities arn't going away, you better learn to live with them. 11. pscho-mass murderers... would be higher on this list if they weren't entertaining 12. abductions and natural disasters... they arn't entertaining 13. abortion... i dont care and i will become disgruntal if get near me 14. kids especially loud ones 15. mothers... nuff said 16. nuff 17. disregard for me and my needs 18. very long lists that seem to go nowhere 19. things that waste my time 20. mods that dont work 21. my wireless router 22. writting very long lists into nowhere on threads about anime 23. writting very long lists into nowhere on threads that arn't about anime 24. my lack of a full time job 25. people that dont fully close doors. but leave them slightly ajar... CLOSE IT OR OPEN IT!!! 26. people that dont use turn signals 27. this one intersection where they just have some flashing lights, instead of a some acual street lights! 28. people that dont take notes and then me and the other 5 people that did have to raise our had for the answers to keep the class moving. 29. this kid who never takes notes but always raises his hand and gives the wrong answer. he would be higher on the list but, he's rather entertaining. 30. waking up and relizing my arm has cramped up. 31. days when i just cant seem to 'edgar allen POEN' on CS:S 32. things that are just out of my reach and require me to exert minimal effort, yet enough to make me wish i was a jedi 33. knowing i need to do something 34. that buttery crumg topping on some apple pies... too buttery 35. things that i cant think of to put on this list 36. gays... i dont hate them, i've just ran out of things i hate
Jancarius 11-21-05, 03:29 AM	8. bears... they might eat me.. or worse.. my food.Excuse me, sir, but I am of ursine descent (I hope to god I didn't misspell that), and I find your views extremely offensive. If you do not withdraw them immediatly, I shall report them as a blatant display of racism.
Corinthians 11-21-05, 05:08 AM	To the OP: tell the narutards to hit the bricks, they probably have a dvd player and a tv, they can always use those if they want to relive their hero's great deeds.
WizO_TheCheat 11-21-05, 09:30 AM	Definitely has run its course.