Annoying 3.5 problem...grrrrrr... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Annoying 3.5 problem...grrrrrr... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arthur_Pendragon
01-24-04, 12:22 AM I was working over some stuff with my Savage Species book, but my group is now playing in 3.5.

While this hasn't caused a direct problem as of yet, I realized reading some other posts that since Savage Species was written for 3.0 and some many monsters have gotten changed in 3.5 how am I suppose to change the stuff in the Savage Species book over?

Is there something on the net for it already?

Also, one additional question concerning damage reduction rules in 3.5.

When it says "DR 10/cold iron or good" does that then mean that, unless the weapon is made of "cold iron" or is "good aligned," that the weapon will not ignore the Damage Reduction of a creature no matter HOW magical the weapon is?

(In other words if the demon has DR 10/cold iron or good and all you've got is a +5 (non aligned, normal metal) longsword do you still apply the DR? What if it's made of another speical metal?)
Tehril
01-24-04, 01:59 AM That is correct.

In order to negate DR, you must have the specific material mentioned... be it Cold Iron or an aligned weapon, silver or adamantium.

No single weapon can do it all anymore.
halzmar of geoff
01-24-04, 02:19 AM Originally posted by Tehril
That is correct.

In order to negate DR, you must have the specific material mentioned... be it Cold Iron or an aligned weapon, silver or adamantium.

No single weapon can do it all anymore.

At least they did lower the number on the damage you need to overcome to do damage ie for an iron golem 15/adamantine in 3.5 from 50/+3 in 3rd. As for one weapon doing it all S&F 76 Sure striking weapons may do the trick if reworded. Otherwise employment opportunities for sword caddies looks bright for the future.

"Oh sword caddy it looks as if I'll need my +3 silver sword to handle this werebeast"
BenjCano
01-24-04, 02:55 AM Since when has anything going toe-to-toe with a mid-level demon worried about puting out more than 10 points of damage per hit? You can make your jokes about sword caddies if you like, I for one am pleased with the changes to the DR system. It makes it actually mean something, instead of being an interesting text block. Did anyone actually care about the DR 10/silver lycanthropes enjoyed in 3.0? By the time most PCs were running into them, they had the almighty +1 weapons, and that settled that.

By simultaneously reducing the amount of protection and strengthening the rules regarding overcoming damage reduction, the designers have made it a viable attribute and shored up some weaknesses in game design. I say well done.
halzmar of geoff
01-24-04, 04:16 AM +3 longsword +5 for strength that's what something like 13 points per hit average. Wow if the character rolls 3 hits per round it's a whopping 9 points of damage yep that's great for a mid level character. Well at least I won't have to come up with as many adventures seeing how it'll take so long for my players to get through a single encounter.

Can't say I really thought DR in 3rd was or is much of a problem. The 3.5 version simply makes flavor text based on fairy tales relevent. While I'm not against the thing with werewolves having DR/silver and only silver, the rest of the system - cold iron, adamantite, lawful - restrictive, unneccessary and boring. Some people think its worth something, or fixed something, but I didn't think it was that impressive a contribution. It seems more like a marketing ploy - like renaming celestials to angels that will get kids to run around bashing demons with cold iron so 60 minutes will run one of those slanted specials about a few nutjob roleplayers (who aren't representive at all of the gaming community) which causes kneejerk outrage so they can get the free publicity like the had in the 80's. So I'd have to give it a solid thumbs down.
MinusInnocence
01-24-04, 05:20 AM Yeah, that publicity was REAL sweet. I think we're all still feeling the repercussions of that brilliant marketing ploy... I don't know how many times I've heard people tell me, "You play D&D? Isn't that for nerds or cultists or something?" and just said, "Thank GOD for the media! I wouldn't have my beloved hobby if people didn't think I was mentally ill simply because I enjoy RPGs!"

Any way, to avoid tearing that poster a new one, I'll actually submit something relevant to the thread. The core of Savage Species - the guidelines they submitted for creating your own monster classes - is valid no matter what special abilities those monsters have. You just have to figure out how to space everything out and make it gel. SS was actually the transition piece between 3.0 and 3.5 - yes, I noticed some discrepancies in things like mentioning Alchemy as a stand-alone skill instead of an offshoot of Craft, but it was by and large meant to incorporate the new vision the designers had for a game system that allowed more versatility with monster races than ever.

And, yes, DR is different now. The difference between a +1 Weapon and a +5 Weapon, now, is simply 4 points of attack and damage bonuses. Adamantine is for combatting Constructs (which isn't completely nonsensical, since the primary benefit of an adamantine weapon is its ability to bypass hardness), and Fey are injured by Cold Iron (which also makes sense since they describe Cold Iron as being innately resistant to magic). It's also true, as a poster mentioned, that the lore of the faerie tales we all grew up with is put to good use here. I don't think that's a bad thing at all - particularly because I, myself, picked up the hobby from a desire to live out those tales.

I recall the designers calling their decision to give the DR system a rehaul an attempt to fight against the "You Must Be This Tall To Fight The Monster" rule. They felt it was frivolous to have something as inconsequential as a +3 weapon give you any sort of edge over having a +2 weapon... at their base, both are magical weapons, so why not start with that and see where it takes you? I give the revised Damage Reduction a BIG thumb's up, because it's not just meant to be a way to police the GP your party spends - item crafters have all kinds of options, now, for what materials to work from. You can base an entire game off finding the remains of a meteor shower so you can harvest Adamantine... or a deposed Dwarven noble seeking to reclaim his ancestral halls and their Mithral lode (ok, sorry Tolkien).
olshanski_home
01-24-04, 12:59 PM I think the change is a vast improvement.
I especially am fond of things like the Raksasha, which no longer has the crippling blessed crossbow bolt vulnerability, but instead has DR 15 good and piercing.
I think WOTC has made a number of mistakes, (like making large shortswords, small greatswords, etc.), but the DR update was perfect.

As far as ability to do 10+ pts of damage with the "wrong" weapon, I regularly see the 6th level fighter armed with a +1 greatsword. He had 17 strength to begin with, bumped it to 18 at 4th level, and gets bulls strength cast on him during the first round of combat. With weapon focus and weapon specialization, His damage is now 2d6+12. Average 19. DR 10/silver is a slight bother to him, which gives those monsters a fighting chance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arthur_Pendragon 01-24-04, 12:22 AM	I was working over some stuff with my Savage Species book, but my group is now playing in 3.5. While this hasn't caused a direct problem as of yet, I realized reading some other posts that since Savage Species was written for 3.0 and some many monsters have gotten changed in 3.5 how am I suppose to change the stuff in the Savage Species book over? Is there something on the net for it already? Also, one additional question concerning damage reduction rules in 3.5. When it says "DR 10/cold iron or good" does that then mean that, unless the weapon is made of "cold iron" or is "good aligned," that the weapon will not ignore the Damage Reduction of a creature no matter HOW magical the weapon is? (In other words if the demon has DR 10/cold iron or good and all you've got is a +5 (non aligned, normal metal) longsword do you still apply the DR? What if it's made of another speical metal?)
Tehril 01-24-04, 01:59 AM	That is correct. In order to negate DR, you must have the specific material mentioned... be it Cold Iron or an aligned weapon, silver or adamantium. No single weapon can do it all anymore.
halzmar of geoff 01-24-04, 02:19 AM	Originally posted by Tehril That is correct. In order to negate DR, you must have the specific material mentioned... be it Cold Iron or an aligned weapon, silver or adamantium. No single weapon can do it all anymore. At least they did lower the number on the damage you need to overcome to do damage ie for an iron golem 15/adamantine in 3.5 from 50/+3 in 3rd. As for one weapon doing it all S&F 76 Sure striking weapons may do the trick if reworded. Otherwise employment opportunities for sword caddies looks bright for the future. "Oh sword caddy it looks as if I'll need my +3 silver sword to handle this werebeast"
BenjCano 01-24-04, 02:55 AM	Since when has anything going toe-to-toe with a mid-level demon worried about puting out more than 10 points of damage per hit? You can make your jokes about sword caddies if you like, I for one am pleased with the changes to the DR system. It makes it actually mean something, instead of being an interesting text block. Did anyone actually care about the DR 10/silver lycanthropes enjoyed in 3.0? By the time most PCs were running into them, they had the almighty +1 weapons, and that settled that. By simultaneously reducing the amount of protection and strengthening the rules regarding overcoming damage reduction, the designers have made it a viable attribute and shored up some weaknesses in game design. I say well done.
halzmar of geoff 01-24-04, 04:16 AM	+3 longsword +5 for strength that's what something like 13 points per hit average. Wow if the character rolls 3 hits per round it's a whopping 9 points of damage yep that's great for a mid level character. Well at least I won't have to come up with as many adventures seeing how it'll take so long for my players to get through a single encounter. Can't say I really thought DR in 3rd was or is much of a problem. The 3.5 version simply makes flavor text based on fairy tales relevent. While I'm not against the thing with werewolves having DR/silver and only silver, the rest of the system - cold iron, adamantite, lawful - restrictive, unneccessary and boring. Some people think its worth something, or fixed something, but I didn't think it was that impressive a contribution. It seems more like a marketing ploy - like renaming celestials to angels that will get kids to run around bashing demons with cold iron so 60 minutes will run one of those slanted specials about a few nutjob roleplayers (who aren't representive at all of the gaming community) which causes kneejerk outrage so they can get the free publicity like the had in the 80's. So I'd have to give it a solid thumbs down.
MinusInnocence 01-24-04, 05:20 AM	Yeah, that publicity was REAL sweet. I think we're all still feeling the repercussions of that brilliant marketing ploy... I don't know how many times I've heard people tell me, "You play D&D? Isn't that for nerds or cultists or something?" and just said, "Thank GOD for the media! I wouldn't have my beloved hobby if people didn't think I was mentally ill simply because I enjoy RPGs!" Any way, to avoid tearing that poster a new one, I'll actually submit something relevant to the thread. The core of Savage Species - the guidelines they submitted for creating your own monster classes - is valid no matter what special abilities those monsters have. You just have to figure out how to space everything out and make it gel. SS was actually the transition piece between 3.0 and 3.5 - yes, I noticed some discrepancies in things like mentioning Alchemy as a stand-alone skill instead of an offshoot of Craft, but it was by and large meant to incorporate the new vision the designers had for a game system that allowed more versatility with monster races than ever. And, yes, DR is different now. The difference between a +1 Weapon and a +5 Weapon, now, is simply 4 points of attack and damage bonuses. Adamantine is for combatting Constructs (which isn't completely nonsensical, since the primary benefit of an adamantine weapon is its ability to bypass hardness), and Fey are injured by Cold Iron (which also makes sense since they describe Cold Iron as being innately resistant to magic). It's also true, as a poster mentioned, that the lore of the faerie tales we all grew up with is put to good use here. I don't think that's a bad thing at all - particularly because I, myself, picked up the hobby from a desire to live out those tales. I recall the designers calling their decision to give the DR system a rehaul an attempt to fight against the "You Must Be This Tall To Fight The Monster" rule. They felt it was frivolous to have something as inconsequential as a +3 weapon give you any sort of edge over having a +2 weapon... at their base, both are magical weapons, so why not start with that and see where it takes you? I give the revised Damage Reduction a BIG thumb's up, because it's not just meant to be a way to police the GP your party spends - item crafters have all kinds of options, now, for what materials to work from. You can base an entire game off finding the remains of a meteor shower so you can harvest Adamantine... or a deposed Dwarven noble seeking to reclaim his ancestral halls and their Mithral lode (ok, sorry Tolkien).
olshanski_home 01-24-04, 12:59 PM	I think the change is a vast improvement. I especially am fond of things like the Raksasha, which no longer has the crippling blessed crossbow bolt vulnerability, but instead has DR 15 good and piercing. I think WOTC has made a number of mistakes, (like making large shortswords, small greatswords, etc.), but the DR update was perfect. As far as ability to do 10+ pts of damage with the "wrong" weapon, I regularly see the 6th level fighter armed with a +1 greatsword. He had 17 strength to begin with, bumped it to 18 at 4th level, and gets bulls strength cast on him during the first round of combat. With weapon focus and weapon specialization, His damage is now 2d6+12. Average 19. DR 10/silver is a slight bother to him, which gives those monsters a fighting chance.