Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gregm 11-17-04, 04:53 PM	So far the campaign I am DMing has run for one session. And there are already problems. At the moment there is a rogue, paladin, NG Cleric of Pelor and druid. The thing that is annoying me to no end (and my bro) is that the cleric keeps dissing and disrespecting my bros paladin (after one session mind). The cleric is being an idiot and refusing to see i to i with the paladin, insulting him by calling him 'paladin' instead of his name (even when requested to use the name by the paladin) and talking down too him. This problem with trying to play too much too alignments annoyed our last DM. What I would like to know is how should a NG cleric of pelor really act around a LG Heironeous paladin? ANd how would the paladin react to being shown so much blatant disrespect by another warrior of good? And most importantly, how should I deal with this?
primemover003 11-17-04, 05:12 PM	What's the deal with the Player? Is there a problem between the players IRL? If not this is just stupid. A NG cleric of Pelor and a LG Paladin of Heironious should get along quite well. Both are good and both deities I would think are on friendly terms. What's the reason the player is playing the Cleric this way? Is there a Roleplaying reason, something in a backstory or history? As the DM you need to promote a Friendly gaming environment for all (especially yourself)... this is supposed to be fun! OOG you need to talk to the Player and ask him why he's busting the other guys chops. Be sure to stress this is disruptive and isn't making the enjoyable for the group. Then if he has some sort of reason for the behavior try working it into the campaign somehow... just to show the player you want him to have fun as well.
Morwen 11-17-04, 05:13 PM	The Cleric is supposed to act as a Good character would act. He's almost entirely Good, and as such shouldn't be going around disrespecting and insulting other Good characters.
Talisman 11-17-04, 05:13 PM	Alignment-wise, the cleric is definitely out of line. The paladin might seem a bit strict and warlike, but nothing the cleric couldn't live with. However, alignments aren't personalities; perhaps the cleric's just a NG son-of-a-:censored:. Good people can be jerks as well, and evil people can be pleasant. That being said, I could see the cleric chiding the paladin about his "hidebound" ways and suggesting that he "try talking, not fighting", but refusing to use his name seems childish. Why is he doing this? Has the paladin somehow offended him? Is it simply because they follow different gods? I'd ignore alignment for this question, as no one actually wears a big tabard reading "Hi, I'm Bill and I'm Lawful Good!" Alignments are meant as guidelines, not shackles. I'd be inclined to talk to the cleric player (privately, of course) and mention that his constant kidding and pestering of the other player's character is starting to hurt the campaign. Stress that the party is supposed to work together, not work against itself. Of course, the cleric's player may not take your advice, or you may not wish to confront him about this. In that case, you have two options: (1) drop him from the gaming group, or (2) handle it in--charcter. How the paladin should act depends a great deal on the personality. Is he of noble birth? Is he a peasant? Is he arrogant? Humble? Abrasive? Being a paladin he'd probably put up with a certain amount of badgering, but there are limits. Perhaps ignoring the cleric (totally, mind you) until he's more pleasant. Perhaps having a word with the nearest temple of Pelor about the behavior of their priests. Perhaps advising the cleric that, holy knight or no, there's only so much abuse mortals can endure...and if he doesn't shut up, whupping the holy bejeezus out of him (at -4 to hit, so it's nonlethal damage, of course). What do the other party members think? From what you describe, chances are the rogue and the druid will back the paladin. The cleric's going to be in trouble if he alienates the whole party with pointless bickering. At this point he might be considered mere "walking healing", and lose a great deal of respect. "Yo, cleric, get over here and heal me! Now!" If the cleric won't shut up and the other PCs take the paladin's side, there can be all kinds of fun. Holy symbols stole--er, mis-placed; poison ivy growing under the cleric's bedroll...all sorts of fun stuff.
Vharuck 11-17-04, 08:27 PM	Story-wise, this could be nice and interesting. Game-wise, he shoudl shove a sock in it. I mean, I could see a cleric looking down on a paladin. Usually in church hierarchies clerics are above paladins, and give them commands. He's acting as such, treating the paladin more like a lacky, which he may have been trained to think. But, as a player that has to campaign with a fellow player, respect is deserved and for the good of the party, this guy should zip his lips and suck it up.
The Philosopher King 11-17-04, 08:52 PM	This problem with trying to play too much too alignments annoyed our last DM. I didn't quite get what you meant here. Playing alignments should be good for everyone concerned - that's sort of the point of them. Playing sillybuggers like "I'm a step removed from your alignment and therefore I hate you with every fibre of my being, you lawful scum!" is daft. Does the player in question realise that alignments aren't factions but rather moral and ethical dispositions? With the exception of paladins, there is really no group in which everyone is by necessity of the same alignment. I don't see how a NG cleric of Pelor - who I believe the PHB describes as an enemy of all that is evil... gee why does that sound familiar in terms of paladins? - could act like such a complete :censored: to someone who is essentially a brother in arms. Fair enough they have different patrons, and probably do things differently, but I see no reason for such behaviour. Is there a reason? As for how to deal with it, I think the Shining One himself should have something to say about it. I did something not unlike this for the LG cleric of Cuthbert in my campaign who decided that crushing a goblin (who had surrendered) against his full plate until it was dead was LG. Next time he prays/meditates for spells, give him a vision. Something like "As you pray, you sense that the room you are in is growing brighter and brighter. Before your eyes you see a shining orb of light. As you watch, it slowly changes form until it stretches itself into a long zig-zagging line - almost like a bolt of lightning. Although you hear no words, you are filled with a sense of guilt at some past transgression" Meh... make it better than that, though :)
Phrennzy 11-17-04, 09:13 PM	I had to explain to my Cleric Player that Paladins are Chosen, where as Clerics are Called. As in real life, many people get the calling of the faith. They enter the life and follow the dictates of their god. A paladin is different. There is no choice. The paladin is Chosen by his God to serve him. He is given great burdens to bear for his Lord, and given great power to serve. He has strict rules to follow, and failure to do so results in his Chosen status being stripped. Every temple has a cleric. Every town has several. Paladins are rare. The Cleric should be more respectful.
Carkni 11-17-04, 10:43 PM	Well, in social situations involving the Cleric and Paladin, the Paladin always takes precedent. The Cleric behaving the way they are would suddently find themselves unwelcome in some churches and perhaps have some problems calling in the favour of their deity (cast spells).
Eindrachen 11-18-04, 02:02 AM	If this is a player problem (i.e. the player of the cleric of Pelor is just being a horse's posterior), then you should remind the player that if they cannot act more sportsmanlike at the gaming table, or keep the crappy attitude confined to the character without making it an out-of-character way to ridicule the other person, then you will ask them to stop playing the game. As DM, you are the host of a game session (regardless of where it is held at), and therefore you have the authority to kick out anyone who is being disruptive. This doesn't mean you should do this wantonly, because other players may just quit on their own if you start axing off others for no real good reason. But never think you can't just politely show someone the door if they can't be a good player. Now, what about if it is a character problem (i.e. the comments are all in-character)? Easy. Pelor is not some high-and-mighty type god who refuses to respect other good dieties. In fact, Lawful Good worshippers are among his own flock, and some of them may be paladins. So, here's some ideas for a solution: 1. A paladin of Pelor (with grotesque influence in the church, and, ideally, of very high level, with Leadership and a ton of personal retainers), hears of the cleric's indiscretions. He immediately confronts the cleric, who is disparaging another "warrior of Good", and angrily demands either an apology, or a duel. 2. Pelor himself sees the cleric acting far out of his teachings, and decides the cleric is falling from the faith. He begins withholding spiritual power from the cleric, starting with Domain powers (one or both), then taking a spellcasting level away, from the top down. If the PC is smart enough to ask his superiors why this is happening, they will be quick to point out that the cleric has acted in a bad way, and must find some way to appease Pelor, lest they lose all their power forever. (If the player tries to switch faiths, remember that Pelor isn't some isolated god, and the other gods would not allow him to join their followers because they acted up.) 3. The PC starts losing XP every time they insult or belittle the paladin. If he questions this, it is Pelor refusing to advance his power as a Cleric in his service, until he mends his ways. 4. A blackguard, who was an ex-paladin, overhears the PC making remarks to the paladin. He immediately has his entire order hunt down and slay the cleric with any resources they can spare to the effort (occasional infernal creatures, sentient undead, zealous fanatics, etc.). Maybe this can even be the paladin PC himself... 5. The cleric is confronted by a powerful servant of Pelor (some kind of celestial, ideally), and is informed that they have erred. They may not take any further levels in Cleric, for any good deity, and must take some other class the next time they level up. Be creative, and if the above ideas are suitable, perhaps variations of them will suffice. But don't back down. Clerics are supposed to be the spokespersons for their deities. I can hardly believe that Pelor would have someone in his ranks who disparages such great warriors against evil as paladins are.
danielinthewolvesden 11-18-04, 04:30 AM	If this is a player problem (i.e. the player of the cleric of Pelor is just being a horse's posterior), then you should remind the player that if they cannot act more sportsmanlike at the gaming table, or keep the crappy attitude confined to the character without making it an out-of-character way to ridicule the other person, then you will ask them to stop playing the game. As DM, you are the host of a game session (regardless of where it is held at), and therefore you have the authority to kick out anyone who is being disruptive. This doesn't mean you should do this wantonly, because other players may just quit on their own if you start axing off others for no real good reason. But never think you can't just politely show someone the door if they can't be a good player. Now, what about if it is a character problem (i.e. the comments are all in-character)? Easy. 3. The PC starts losing XP every time they insult or belittle the paladin. If he questions this, it is Pelor refusing to advance his power as a Cleric in his service, until he mends his ways. But don't back down. Clerics are supposed to be the spokespersons for their deities. I can hardly believe that Pelor would have someone in his ranks who disparages such great warriors against evil as paladins are. The first is a very good idea. Try talking to him DM to player. The rest are not bad suggestions at all...except when we get to #3. The DMG (and also me, but...) suggests VERY strongly that you never penalize xps. It causes hard feelings and it really is outside the suggested rules. But the first is what you need to do before anything else. Talk to him. Ask him "What's up with this? Why are you doing this? " Don't be confrontational- find out what his feelings are and why. Then explain what your feelings are and that of the player. Explain this is a "GAME" and the idea is to "have fun".
penchant 11-18-04, 05:25 AM	What is with all this about the wrath of Pelor coming down on a cleric for being a *******? Just because you are good does not mean you are nice. Nice and good are two different things. A priest is a divine authority in himself and unless there is a higher level priest around he is beholden only to his beliefs. A paladin while also holy, still received his daily blessings from the priesthood as he is not a priest himself. That is the balance of power in a religious heirarchy. The knights and paladins have the weapons and the priests hold the keys to heaven. Let the two characters handle it in game time. If the paladin cannot resolve it with the cleric, his next recourse would be to complain to the local bishop. Pure bureacracy, no divine intervention necessary. That's why the gods created high priests in the first place.
Shard of Suzail 11-18-04, 07:02 AM	Well, strictly speaking, a paladin is usually ranked below a cleric in terms of church matters. This is purely for practical reasons, since soldiers of the gods tend to need a hierarchy of bookwise people above them who organise the worship of the deity on an administrative level. A paladin needs to know where to fight his wars, but can decide how they are fought by himself. Much like generals and politicians. However, Paladins are rare and special. They rank highly above the usual mundane men at arms that a church has. So, a paladin is more likely to be highly ranked in military terms than the average cleric. For each politician, there are many office workers. Paladins are like special forces folks. In the usual party, however, things go out of whack. Usually because the paladin has been included in the party without much thought. When a paladin has no defined role or purpose, then it should come as no surprise when he takes second or third place in party matters. Most often, when a paladin is given a defined role, then that comes with a clear rank. Perhaps he is group leader or a bodyguard to the party cleric. Sadly many player groups mix religions. I am a great fan of keeping the religions of characters in my groups to one core church, to breed a sense of commonality. A church is much like a country and, while two churches may share common traits, they often do not agree on method. It is not unknown for churches of the same alignment to come to blows. We see this a lot in parties where players define their individual natures by worshipping whatever god seemed good at the time of character creation. I have seen a clever gm exploit this by having two of the gods worshipped in his group demand from their religious followers that they proved which god was best. Each god was angered that its cleric was not the party leader or that it allowed the "other god" to claim credit for some important task. As one was an elven god (correlon), he was the top of his pantheon and thus felt he had a better standing than his unrelated human rival. Mixed race, mixed gods, mixed classes. I hate that sort of group. It is one of the nice things about playing in forgotten realms that the gods really do take an active interest in what their followers do. They make careful note in the guides of the gods as to who likes whom and what their history is. I have seen some GM's really surprise good aligned characters when a church they assumed would be favourable to them actively closes its doors and turns them away. Still, there is nothing wrong with being haughty when you are Neutral good. He can be rude and exceptionally formal. Calling a paladin by his official name and not by his proper name is possible. Ideally, the paladin should accept that he and this cleric will not get on. There is no law that says everyone should like everyone else. He should take steps to earn the clerics respect and trust. Respect is earned and not given, remember. I would take the tactic of just accepting that the cleric only wants to deal with the paladin in a formal and limited manner. He should consider himself above such things and just get on with the job of being a holy warrior, which should keep him busy. As a follower of good, he should know that not everyone will reward him for his acts, but that this does not make them any less valuable. In time, the relationship will most probably improve.