Annoying Necromancer. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Annoying Necromancer. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kage_Ryu
02-24-06, 04:01 PM Well, not so much necromancer. One of my player's like's necromatic spells. Which gets really annoying, 'cause I can't throw any undead out. My player's have given up on Cleric's 'cause I won't put in any undead because my player just uses "Command Undead" to take over them. I know at higher levels I can use Vampires and stuff that get will saves, but right now the Skeletons and Zombies I throw out are always under his control, and do I have to tell you how annoying a) that he's taking over all my challenges, and b) having to roll for like 10 monsters under one guy is? It slows down the game! I don't want one player hogging up all the player's time.

Anyways, if you could give me any tips on making it more difficult for him to just control the monsters I throw out it'd be helpful, that way the game runs more smoothly and I can actually use undead.

Oh, btw, command undead doesn't allow a throw for any undead that don't have intelligence which is what Skeletons and Zombies are, that's why he just controls them whenever he uses the spell.
Pellanor
02-24-06, 04:08 PM Use Ghouls, they're intelligent and only CR 1.
Silais
02-24-06, 04:16 PM Well...

You could always go down the path that controlling undead for any purpose other then ordering their imminent destruction ("Go jump in that lava pit!") is an inheriently evil act.

Not that I agree with the above statement, just it is an option.
Shedeo
02-24-06, 04:19 PM Well, also remember that a character cannot control more hd of undead than double his hit dice. At least, I think that's correct off the top of my head.
Kage_Ryu
02-24-06, 04:21 PM They're a level 5 party right now. Too low for Vampires, although I could use vampire spawns... Hmm.

Anyways, thanks for the Ghoul thing, I'll remember that for the next campaign when he gets Command undead again...

My question is there any way of making Skels and Zombs resistant to command undead? So I can use higher cr skels and zombs? I'd like to have a big undead part coming up but With him and his spells it'll be difficult to make it challenging.

I don't mean to take away all of his commanding abilities, but like a good save throw or something to be able to fight back.

Currently the only undead monsters I know of that I can fight with are Vampire, Vampire Spawn, or Ghoul with class levels/Hit die.
Kage_Ryu
02-24-06, 04:25 PM Maybe I'm overdoing it, but he can command up to 6 (He would realise that it's an undead area and prepare spells accordingly) undead creatures. I don't like having too many people to control for one character because it'll slow down the game. It seems that Command Undead only works on one creature (Now that I've re-read the entry after you mentioned that 2HD/level thing). So maybe it's not so bad.

I guess I've learned a valuable lesson in not trusting spell casters and what spells do. Or maybe I should just teach him how to read an entry properly v.v
Silais
02-24-06, 04:30 PM Well, it isn't specifcaly RAW...

Clerics of evil deities (or evil clerics of neutral deities, or some neutral clerics) can do what's called "bolstering" the undead, this is normaly used to make an undead harder to turn from a good cleric. But I think that you could easily house rule that this also gives the undead a resisitance to the command undead spell. This could be represented by allowing a saving through (even though the spell would say otherwise, you ARE the DM), or it could be represented as Spell Resistance that only works against that spell (Mabey SR 10+turning damage result of buffing cleric).

Evil clerics also have the rebuke/comand undead option, this would give both characters control over the undead, in which case (if I remember correctly) the rules call for opposed charisma checks to see who actualy has controll of the undead.
RevIron
02-24-06, 04:37 PM Also, the DM is meant to <i>negotiate</i> the spell list with players for Arcane Casters). So next campaign, when he asks if he can have Command Undead, unless he's playing an evil cleric make an alternitive suggestion your happier with - any of the other Necromancy school spells should peek his intrest, but start with saying you'd prefer him not to have the spell - in fact, make sure you mention it before the campaign starts, and if he's in agreement make it a house rule. Alternativly, Ghoul Touch is always useful.
wonlee76
02-24-06, 05:03 PM First: How many Command Undeads can this guy cast at level 5 per day.

Second: Put in triple the number of mindless undead in a dungeon spread out a bit so that he just used up his resources for some but not all of the undead.

Third: Toss in a cleric BBEG who can turn to take control of the undead back (Figure low HD undead means relatively easy time for a cleric to take control back).

I think if there is any kind of problem, you're relying on "bigger" zombies and skeletons against the players (making the Command Undead spell a lot nastier) instead of swarming the PCs with numerous low HD skeletons/zombies. Sure, combat is a bit more difficult to manage but spread the undead out into several encounters and it really isn't that bad.
LugWrench
02-25-06, 01:41 AM Ghasts and Wights are also 'inteligent' undead. IIRC. I dont have my books in front of me at the moment. If nothing else, check out Libirs Mortis. Specifically the part on identifying undead. If the character in question (not the player) is unfamiliar with a monster, theyll have to take a turn (or more) doing Knowledge checks to try and figure out that the critter is undead to begin with. And who knows, this undead just might be immune to Control or Command spells. So he will have to take another round to figure that out, as well. You arent punishing him, per se. Youre just giving your undead at least one round head start before he starts diddling with spells and controling them.
Just a thought, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kage_Ryu 02-24-06, 04:01 PM	Well, not so much necromancer. One of my player's like's necromatic spells. Which gets really annoying, 'cause I can't throw any undead out. My player's have given up on Cleric's 'cause I won't put in any undead because my player just uses "Command Undead" to take over them. I know at higher levels I can use Vampires and stuff that get will saves, but right now the Skeletons and Zombies I throw out are always under his control, and do I have to tell you how annoying a) that he's taking over all my challenges, and b) having to roll for like 10 monsters under one guy is? It slows down the game! I don't want one player hogging up all the player's time. Anyways, if you could give me any tips on making it more difficult for him to just control the monsters I throw out it'd be helpful, that way the game runs more smoothly and I can actually use undead. Oh, btw, command undead doesn't allow a throw for any undead that don't have intelligence which is what Skeletons and Zombies are, that's why he just controls them whenever he uses the spell.
Pellanor 02-24-06, 04:08 PM	Use Ghouls, they're intelligent and only CR 1.
Silais 02-24-06, 04:16 PM	Well... You could always go down the path that controlling undead for any purpose other then ordering their imminent destruction ("Go jump in that lava pit!") is an inheriently evil act. Not that I agree with the above statement, just it is an option.
Shedeo 02-24-06, 04:19 PM	Well, also remember that a character cannot control more hd of undead than double his hit dice. At least, I think that's correct off the top of my head.
Kage_Ryu 02-24-06, 04:21 PM	They're a level 5 party right now. Too low for Vampires, although I could use vampire spawns... Hmm. Anyways, thanks for the Ghoul thing, I'll remember that for the next campaign when he gets Command undead again... My question is there any way of making Skels and Zombs resistant to command undead? So I can use higher cr skels and zombs? I'd like to have a big undead part coming up but With him and his spells it'll be difficult to make it challenging. I don't mean to take away all of his commanding abilities, but like a good save throw or something to be able to fight back. Currently the only undead monsters I know of that I can fight with are Vampire, Vampire Spawn, or Ghoul with class levels/Hit die.
Kage_Ryu 02-24-06, 04:25 PM	Maybe I'm overdoing it, but he can command up to 6 (He would realise that it's an undead area and prepare spells accordingly) undead creatures. I don't like having too many people to control for one character because it'll slow down the game. It seems that Command Undead only works on one creature (Now that I've re-read the entry after you mentioned that 2HD/level thing). So maybe it's not so bad. I guess I've learned a valuable lesson in not trusting spell casters and what spells do. Or maybe I should just teach him how to read an entry properly v.v
Silais 02-24-06, 04:30 PM	Well, it isn't specifcaly RAW... Clerics of evil deities (or evil clerics of neutral deities, or some neutral clerics) can do what's called "bolstering" the undead, this is normaly used to make an undead harder to turn from a good cleric. But I think that you could easily house rule that this also gives the undead a resisitance to the command undead spell. This could be represented by allowing a saving through (even though the spell would say otherwise, you ARE the DM), or it could be represented as Spell Resistance that only works against that spell (Mabey SR 10+turning damage result of buffing cleric). Evil clerics also have the rebuke/comand undead option, this would give both characters control over the undead, in which case (if I remember correctly) the rules call for opposed charisma checks to see who actualy has controll of the undead.
RevIron 02-24-06, 04:37 PM	Also, the DM is meant to <i>negotiate</i> the spell list with players for Arcane Casters). So next campaign, when he asks if he can have Command Undead, unless he's playing an evil cleric make an alternitive suggestion your happier with - any of the other Necromancy school spells should peek his intrest, but start with saying you'd prefer him not to have the spell - in fact, make sure you mention it before the campaign starts, and if he's in agreement make it a house rule. Alternativly, Ghoul Touch is always useful.
wonlee76 02-24-06, 05:03 PM	First: How many Command Undeads can this guy cast at level 5 per day. Second: Put in triple the number of mindless undead in a dungeon spread out a bit so that he just used up his resources for some but not all of the undead. Third: Toss in a cleric BBEG who can turn to take control of the undead back (Figure low HD undead means relatively easy time for a cleric to take control back). I think if there is any kind of problem, you're relying on "bigger" zombies and skeletons against the players (making the Command Undead spell a lot nastier) instead of swarming the PCs with numerous low HD skeletons/zombies. Sure, combat is a bit more difficult to manage but spread the undead out into several encounters and it really isn't that bad.
LugWrench 02-25-06, 01:41 AM	Ghasts and Wights are also 'inteligent' undead. IIRC. I dont have my books in front of me at the moment. If nothing else, check out Libirs Mortis. Specifically the part on identifying undead. If the character in question (not the player) is unfamiliar with a monster, theyll have to take a turn (or more) doing Knowledge checks to try and figure out that the critter is undead to begin with. And who knows, this undead just might be immune to Control or Command spells. So he will have to take another round to figure that out, as well. You arent punishing him, per se. Youre just giving your undead at least one round head start before he starts diddling with spells and controling them. Just a thought, though.