Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Newbie to D&D 02-06-05, 03:22 AM	I am currently DM in a with a group of new players (I am new too) and I am not sure what to do about what a player recently did. To make a long story short, he swiched his Int and Cha scores, and erased all of his skills, and didn't say any thing untill I saw his character sheet. He also lies alot out of game, so i cant realy listen to what he says. I am friends with him so I dont want to kick him out, and I am afraid some of the other players will leave if I do. I have not asked the opinion of the other players yet. Any suggestions about what to do with this player?
dragondmii 02-06-05, 03:36 AM	just so im clear he changed his stats after you said some thing to the effect of roll your stats and take them in the order you roll them or in the middle of a game session he changed them (if both of those are wrong dont read the rest of this) personaly i think his punishment should depend on his class and what beinfit he got out of it (or if #1 applys he should be kicked for braking the rules hard core style) lets say hes a soc and didnt know that cha and not int is casting ablity then i find that for givable because your all new but if he was a rogue and swiched the scores to bluff/diplomacy some one, kick him. if he was a fighter and use cha skill on some one affter change kick or swiched to get more skills kick any way im kinda hard with most of these judgments because if i found one of my players doing it no questions asked hes kicked(all my pc have been at this for at least a year they had better know better)
JKnight 02-06-05, 07:08 AM	Since everyone at the table is new - sometimes mistakes happen, even ones that seem obvious to avoid. It's not that bad considering you guys are new to the game, but continuing in that vein will just develop poor skills that will keep you from enjoying DND to its fullest. A terrible secret of life is that a lot of people cheat. It's amazing. They could be the most upstanding person in society, but you get them in front of a dragon with their peers, or up against a nasty NPC where feelings run high, and saving throws start getting a little higher, attack rolls start getting a little better, crits happen a little more often. The only way I personally have ever known to stop this is to have the dice rolled in the open at all times, with other players checking on other players. Jimbo might cheat for himself, but darn if he's going to let Patty get away with it. Also, as a DM, especially a new one, watch ALL the dice rolls. It's important. How to fix your problem though. It's simple, and something I believe every DM should do anyway. Get yourself a folder of some sort. Okay, now make a copy of everyone's character sheet. Refer to them often during the off times, between games... for my group, every week. You should know your player characters as well as they know themselves. And if you have a copy of their sheet... then it's hard to fudge the numbers. JK
Newbie to D&D 02-06-05, 10:18 AM	Thanks
charred 02-06-05, 03:24 PM	I think everyone here pretty much has the right idea. Everyone is new, so you can let it slide. I would still say to give him some punishment because you can't be doing that kind of thing. I would tell him that the character he hs now is not the one he made, and thus is not in the game. If he wants to get back in, make a new character. Whether at a lower level or not is up to you. You can't let this kind of thing become commonplace.
Newbie to D&D 02-06-05, 05:58 PM	I realized that this is abit unclear, so let me rephrase this. We have been playing with these characters for about a month now, and he asked me if he could swich his int and cha scores to help him roleplay (he is a sorcerer, so this would realy weaken his character, he has 18 cha and 12 int), and i told him to change his roleplaying to fit his stats, not the other way around. I found out that friday when playing that he swiched them any way, and erased all of his skills. I hope this clears it up abit.
NEd 02-06-05, 06:24 PM	Point out that: 1: 9 is considered the human average in any stat 2: A sorcerer needs charisma 1x to cast a spell of level x. If the character goes to level 10 as a sorcerer, putting the 4th level stat boosts into cha will not have been enough to get 5th level spells Then ask why he thinks he has teh capability to roleplay maximum human intelligence but can't manage high intelligence and powerful personality.
Newbie to D&D 02-06-05, 06:30 PM	I am thinking about forcing him to make the change permenent, think this is a good idea?
Thracos 02-06-05, 06:33 PM	If a player in one of my games changed their stats after i told them thay couldn't i'd kill off their char. in a fast and messy kind of way. Then i would make them rewrite at one level lower, but then again im an a******. I think Charred and JKnight have the right idea, explain to him that once the game starts your stats can't be swaped out no matter what. Then have him rewrite a new char. i'd skip the level peanalty this time but warn him that next time he will lose a level on his new char.
Nomad4life 02-06-05, 06:33 PM	Just give him a new character. Next time he cheats, give him another new character with worse stats. If he cheats after that, DECAPITATE him and say "let this be a lesson to you all."
Newbie to D&D 02-06-05, 06:46 PM	When he asked me if he could change his stats the first time I explained that you cant change the character, and I have said this a number of times during the game, I at least think I made it clear. Also I have a very good way to kill him which would lead into the next adventure.
NEd 02-06-05, 08:11 PM	Just be careful and consider how he'll take it if you arbitrarily kill his character. Maybe actually let him know in advance, talk to him about a new character idea, make sure he does this one right. Some people aren't so good at handling character death. Although if he keeps pulling stupid moves like that, he'll get used to it.
Habronicus 02-06-05, 11:27 PM	Well, I'm proud to say I'm probably one of the few GMs who never had to deal with cheaters because I block any chance of cheating from my players. My "secret" is to always keep the PCs original character sheets with me, as well as a copy. This is good because if the GM doesn't show up, there's no game anyway, but if one of the player's missing, his character can still be present and gameplay resumes. Now, whenever the group has a gaming session about to start, I hand them over their character sheets (the originals). I then open a little note book and take notes of everything they sell or buy, how much xp they got, etc. At the end of the session, they return the sheets and later, at home, I apply my notes to my copies of the PC sheets, and finally compare those copies to their originals. If someone cheated, I'll know, and I'll bring it up next time I see the player in question. To this day, never failed me... :cool:
Draco Strang 02-07-05, 12:13 AM	Damn Habronicus, you don't mess around.
Talon Blackhart 02-07-05, 12:28 AM	As several people have said, since you're all kinda new, I'd let it go without too much of a big deal for now. Make it clear, however, that stats can't be changed mid-game. Not mid session, not mid-campaign, not at all. A good way to keep this under wraps, as several people have mentioned, is to keep a copy of the character sheets yourself. You don't have to be as strict about it as Habronicus (although that is a majorly wicked idea.), but keep track of what abilities and skills your players have. I personally keep a list of ability scores and mods (with reasons for additions: gloves of dex, etc.), skill points, saves (base and total), init, languages, and equipment. This way, if I think someone's fudging rolls, I can check it myself. Too, if I need to reference something in preperation for the next session, I have the information right there.
AntiDjinn 02-07-05, 05:15 AM	Ask each player for a copy of his/her character, to be updated every level. A DM is well within his rights to do this. It will help you plan encounters that will better challenge the party. It will also prevent weird game derailments like the party not even being able to get into the dungeon because you set the DC on the front door lock too high and overestimated the Open Locks skill total for the character with the most ranks. The DM for our current game gives out XP rewards as a total so far for that character. In other words, if a character had 9000 XP and had just earned 1000 for an adventure, the DM would hand the player a slip of paper that says the character has 10000 XP, not to add 1000 to his existing total. By keeping track of how much XP you have awarded to each character (XP has no source other than the DM, if you have more XP than you have been awarded then you are cheating) you can ensure against funky math when a player totals his XP (like forgetting to subtract XP used in item creation). In a new game I do allow characters to reconsider stat allocations, as well as choice of feats and how their skill points were spent. But all changes must be cleared; the player can't simply assume it will be OK and rewrite his character, and all changes must be done before the character levels up. Note: There is a power in the Expanded Psionics Handbook that lets you reallocate skill, feat, and power choices, but it costs XP. So players who want to do this without a DM's fiat must be prepared to spend XP. Sometimes a new PrC gets published that would have fit perfectly with the character's concept had it just been available earlier. The character may need a retrorewrite to qualify for this PrC, this is OK if the DM allows it, but again must not be assumed by the player.
ShadowDragon8685 02-07-05, 05:30 AM	First off, do NOT keep the player's ORIGINAL sheets. That is theft. It's also the first sign of a Control Phreak DM. Secondly, this guy is reading WAAAAYY too much 8 Bit Theatre. Inform him that in the real game of D&D, he is not Redmage, and he may not swap his stats as he sees fit. Additionally, erasing all your skills is a really bleeping stupid idea. Inform him that he's not welcome for the next session, and that he may not be welcome ever again.
was_fired 02-07-05, 08:00 AM	Shadow, it isn't theft it is a fairly common practice (all be it not the most common one). You see sometimes when people game togather casually and only one guy has books they leave their sheets with the said guy, usually the DM. When I DMed in highschool and we always gamed at my house my players left their sheets with me simply because they didn't want to have to remember them every time they came over. Now if you desire feel free to ph33r me as a control phr34|<. :)
escherblacksmith 02-07-05, 10:05 AM	perhaps I missed something . . . Are you saying that he started out as a sorcerer with cha 18 and Int 12 and wanted to swap them to make his role-playing better? He was wanting to be a bad sorcerer? errr . . . hmmm . . . :uh-huh: Since you folks are just starting the game, I'd let him change and tell him its permanent. (same with the skills). I'm not sure if this should be classified as cheating as there really doesn't seem to be any benefit to changing . . . unless he wants to start taking levels in wizard . . . or something . . . odd.
Thoronmir 02-07-05, 12:06 PM	DMs need the character sheets so they can plan the next adventure. It’s pretty frustrating to design an encounter involving Jackalopes having forgotten that the Fighter has a Mighty Butterknife of Jackalope Slaying. On the other hand, keeping the PC sheets just means more work and responsibility for the DM, and who needs that? Players need the character sheets so they can prepare for the next session. It’s pretty frustrating to want to plan your skills and feats for your next level having forgotten what skills and feats you already possess. On the other hand, keeping the PC sheets just means one more thing you have to remember to bring the next time you play, and who needs that? The obvious solution is that both the DM and the player ought to have a copy of the PC sheet. Who keeps the original and who gets a copy is irrelevant. In our game, we use a custom PC form. It’s a Word document, so we can make changes on the computer. The players keep track of any changes on their sheets and leave them with me at the end of the session. I audit the changes and, unless I catch a mistake, update the computer files and e-mail the new PC sheets to the players. If a player forgets his/her sheet, I can always print off a current version from my computer. As for our wayward Sorcerer, I remain clueless why he’d want (or need) to swap his INT and CHA for “roleplaying” purposes. But I’m more concerned that he would make the change despite his DM’s express veto. That’s a sure sign of future trouble. Personally, I’m pretty lax with new players. I remember when I first played D&D … as you learn more about the game, your preferences may change. If a new player asked to tinker with his stats a few sessions into the campaign, I’d probably let him. But I can’t imagine anyone wanting to hamstring his PC like this Sorcerer. Does he even realize that with a 12 CHA he can never cast higher level spells? As is almost universally the case, communication is the answer. First, he needs to understand that the DM sets the rules and defines the parameters of the game. If he finds your rulings intolerable, he can always walk. Second, you need to get him to explain why he wants this change … what has he learned since he made his PC that propels him to severely limit his character’s primary ability? Perhaps Sorcerer isn’t the right class for him to play and he’d be more comfortable with a Wizard. I try to never make such decisions without knowing why a player has made a request.
screwtape 02-07-05, 12:31 PM	"He also lies alot out of game…I am friends with him…" Not game related, but if he lies, why would you want him as a friend? “…do NOT keep the player's ORIGINAL sheets. That is theft” Uh, yeah. In fact, it is felony grand theft. Yeah, that’s it. I once knew a guy that got 25 years to life for it. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Alert the FBI - I keep original sheets. In case a player cannot make it, I can run them as NPCs for that session. They keep copies to take home with them. Plus, it helps prevent shenanigans, not that anyone in my group would do such a thing. Still, an ounce of prevention, as they say.
Denihilist 03-13-05, 01:25 AM	Flaming removed
Tzepish 03-13-05, 06:59 AM	I keep my player's sheets because it's easier for all of us. My players, without referencing their sheets, generally know what they plan to do in future levels, and they generally know their characters pretty well.
Mirikon 03-13-05, 08:29 AM	I am currently DM in a with a group of new players (I am new too) and I am not sure what to do about what a player recently did. To make a long story short, he swiched his Int and Cha scores, and erased all of his skills, and didn't say any thing untill I saw his character sheet. He also lies alot out of game, so i cant realy listen to what he says. I am friends with him so I dont want to kick him out, and I am afraid some of the other players will leave if I do. I have not asked the opinion of the other players yet. Any suggestions about what to do with this player? Seriously. Just show the rest of the group what this guy's been doing, and then kick him out. You don't want a player like that in your game. If you can't find anyone to replace him, check out the Player classifieds boards.
Lord Dracos 03-13-05, 11:35 AM	If a player in one of my games changed their stats after i told them thay couldn't i'd kill off their char. in a fast and messy kind of way. Then i would make them rewrite at one level lower, but then again im an a******. :devil: I'd have to do the same. But honestly, I sorta have the same type of issue. An annoying player that gets off topic sometimes...:( ..OK... alot. But he is a good friend. I tend to try to get him on task or punish his char. im game. Just a little reminder, cattle prod style. ;) :dragon: