Post/Author/DateTime	Post
temparus2000 09-25-07, 10:25 PM	Variations of this topic has come up again and again.....i know, I know. I even posted responses to many of them. I can honestly say that it is different when it happens to YOU, the clear answer of "what to do" gets blurry, which brings me here. The Scenario: My group was originally intended to be a party of 5. Before we started the campaign, one player ( i'll call him player 1) wanted to include his little brother, 14, and I said no. The rest of us are 22-33 (I am 27), and I wanted to run a mature campaign, plus the 14 year old didn't know how to play and I didn't want to slow everyone down. I also said I'd prefer not to have a 6-player group. Player 1respected the decision and all was well. Then I started talking to an old friend of mine. He's 31 and a D+D vet, been playing a while, including as a DM for me. He's a very old friend (since early childhood) and has had a variety of self-inflicted problems (drug-related), and I hadn't talked to him for quite a while due to an incident related to that. (I'll call him DM friend). But DM friend really wanted to start gaming again and he enjoys my campaigns, so I said it would be okay as long as he showed up consistently. I stressed that he'd only be playing if he didn't spend every saturday night getting wasted and miss every Sunday game as a result. He said (convincingly) he had the problem under control now, so I agreed to let him join. Player 1 protested, saying it wasn't fair that the young brother couldn't play, but DM friend could, given that I stated 6 players was too many as a reason the kid couldn't play. I said (truthfully) that the MAIN reason I didn't want the kid in the group was because of his utter lack of experience. DM friend didn't have that problem. Again, Player 1 respected the desicion (he's a good guy). Then things went bad. Due to his self-inflicted problems, DM Friend has missed quite a few games. Player 1 is now upset that I let THIS guy play and not his little brother, and I know he has a point. I've known DM friend a very long time, and he's not going to change his habbits as a result of my talking to him (wish I had though of that before I let him join ). Now I look like a massive jerk, and not without warrant. I know that replies of "you're a jerk" are forthcomming, and I will not ask that you refrain. But I will ask for helpful advice, particularly if you have gone through a similar thing.
PantherFern 09-25-07, 10:33 PM	I'm not entirely clear what it is you want advice on.
Puca 09-25-07, 10:34 PM	You effed up. Plain and simple. People screw up. It is part of being human. Suck it up, tell both your friends the same things you said here. See how they want to handle it. You know you made a mistake and youre sorry. Come clean and ask for their ideas about how to make it right.
FponkDamn 09-25-07, 10:35 PM	First off, you're not a jerk. You're a human. Since this is generally regarded as a good thing, don't kick yourself. There are ways to solve every problem. My first bit of advice is this - take a two-week break from the game. Everyone will have a cooler head, including you, and it sends the message that you're thinking through your choice. The first order of business after that is to talk to all the players that aren't DM friend. You need to tell them that you want to solve this problem. You also need to tell them that DM friend isn't playing any more. Tell them this before you tell DM friend - it'll make it easier for you to stick to your guns when you do. Then tell them that you'll reconsider allowing the younger brother to play, and do so. I have always been of the opinion that the way to make a new roleplayer good is to put him/her in a group with titans of the art. And I have always found that people live up to the standards you expect from them, given that they have genuine interest. Try a small mini-arc in the main storyline (maybe one that lasts 4-6 sessions) with the brother, then have everyone vote on whether he will continue to play. I really think you'll be pleasantly surprised. And lastly - tell your DM friend that you care about him. Make sure he knows he's got someone pulling for him - even if it has to be a hard lesson. Good luck, friend. - Johnny
Ebonarc 09-25-07, 10:48 PM	Get rid of DM friend, let the 14 year old play, and thank Player 1 for being so understanding. I'd also advise a solo session or two with the 14 year old to show him the ropes, with Player 1 running a DMPC to help him out.
DorkusTyranus 09-25-07, 11:44 PM	I've been in this situation before. Well, roughly. I handled it a little different though. I've got younger brothers that, when they found out I was playing D&D, wanted to play. I personally don't want them playing D&D with me and my buddies (I'm 19, brothers are 13 and 15) mainly because there's a lot of language thrown around and all that stuff. I, personally, feel like it's better to have everyone around the same maturity level so I said no to them. I also have another buddy who is 22 who is the most unreliable person on the planet and he wanted to play too. Before he joined us though I talked to him and was basically like, "Look, if you're gonna play with us you've got to be dedicated. You've got to show up every week because if you don't, it's gonna screw things up for everyone else." After I talked with him a little more about it and felt him out I stopped mentioning it and prayed he wouldn't ask again. (Which he hasn't) He never started playing with us. So here's my advice. First thing's first - get rid of your friend. He's gonna ruin it for everyone. Tell player 1 (And the rest of the group for that matter) that you messed up. You thought the guy was gonna be reliable and he wasn't. Be honest with him. Make sure he knows that you want to run a mature campaign. It's his brother, if he feels like his brother is old enough to handle a mature campaign then let him play. I would check with the rest of the group as well though because someone who's not as mature as the others could be problematic. Also, I played with 2 brothers once before and they didn't get along at all so make sure that he and his brother are good with eachother and aren't going to cause problems. But like I said, be honest with him.
CroBob 09-26-07, 12:32 AM	First off, you're not a jerk. You're a human. Since this is generally regarded as a good thing, don't kick yourself. There are ways to solve every problem. Wait, wait, wait! Did you just take his mistake and turn it into a good thing?! No, stop that. He made a mistake, and his mistake was, in being a mistake, a bad thing. Yes, he's human, yes humans make mistakes, but being a human isn't a good thing due to our mistakes, and the goodness of being a human doesn't overshadow the problems that arise due to our mistakes. In addition, I'd like to posit that being human is not, in itself, good. But, enough of my derailing the thread, my advice for the OP; Make sure you know why you want to disclude Player1's kid brother. You told us why, but I find that sometimes people have reasons they don't state, or don't even realize. You problem, so far as I'm aware, is that the kid is too inexperienced and immature. It seems a fair reason to keep him out of a mature game. Apologize to everyone for allowing such a no good jerk play, but tell Player1 that it does not nullify your reasons for not allowing his brother to play. It was an entirely separate incident. However, how mature is your game, really? Would a 14 year old truly not grasp what's happening? Would it somehow spoil his childhood to learn some of the things your campaign includes. I understand not allowing kids in on games. I really do. I've done the same myself. However, it's obvious he wants to play, and I say that teaching a kid how to play can be rewarding when they grow up into a good player.
HJFudge 09-26-07, 12:40 AM	Im going to echo the sentiment of a couple others... Apologize. Especially to Player 1, as from the way you tell it he has been pretty good at taking answers he doesnt like and trying to do things for the benefit of the group rather than just him and his brother. After you do this, give the kid a chance... Ask the party if they wouldnt mind if he joined, give him a throw away NPCish character to see if HE really wants to play and to see how dedicated he can be. After a few weeks, if hes still showing up and still wanting to play, have him roll up a character of his own.
Genevieve_Evernight 09-26-07, 01:56 AM	Im going to echo the sentiment of a couple others... Apologize. Especially to Player 1, as from the way you tell it he has been pretty good at taking answers he doesnt like and trying to do things for the benefit of the group rather than just him and his brother. After you do this, give the kid a chance... Ask the party if they wouldnt mind if he joined, give him a throw away NPCish character to see if HE really wants to play and to see how dedicated he can be. After a few weeks, if hes still showing up and still wanting to play, have him roll up a character of his own. I agree with this and the similar previous posts. Apologize to Player 1, b/c you did make a mistake. Explain to DM friend that you care about him, but the campaign isn't just about you or him and his lack of consistency ruins it for everyone. I like the idea of a throw away NPC too. If the brother hates it or won't work with your group then no PCs are made casualties of the decision. Also, if the brother likes DnD but just isn't up to your campaign, you could always offer to help him and Player 1 find another campaign for the brother to join. I realize that, even though several people are telling you to do the same thing, it's not necessarily going to be easy. Personally, I HATE having conversations like this with my friends. However, I do think that if you really want to resolve this issue you're going to have to suck it up and do what you have to do. Good luck!
CCS 09-26-07, 02:30 AM	Well, start by enforcing what you said to DM friend when you let him join. Boot him from the game. Then (if you haven't already) sincerely apologize to friend1 & the group as a whole. Next, reconsider your stance concerning the brother. It's a game. It's ALL RIGHT to teach new players how to play. Don't take this so seriously that you neglect to do your part to grow our hobby.... So yes, maybe that means that you'll have to tone down some of the themes you're running for the time being. Go ask the rest of the group what they'd think of including him.
deathbane 09-26-07, 02:46 AM	Variations of this topic has come up again and again.....i know, I know. I even posted responses to many of them. I can honestly say that it is different when it happens to YOU, the clear answer of "what to do" gets blurry, which brings me here. The Scenario: My group was originally intended to be a party of 5. Before we started the campaign, one player ( i'll call him player 1) wanted to include his little brother, 14, and I said no. The rest of us are 22-33 (I am 27), and I wanted to run a mature campaign, plus the 14 year old didn't know how to play and I didn't want to slow everyone down. I also said I'd prefer not to have a 6-player group. Player 1respected the decision and all was well. Then I started talking to an old friend of mine. He's 31 and a D+D vet, been playing a while, including as a DM for me. He's a very old friend (since early childhood) and has had a variety of self-inflicted problems (drug-related), and I hadn't talked to him for quite a while due to an incident related to that. (I'll call him DM friend). But DM friend really wanted to start gaming again and he enjoys my campaigns, so I said it would be okay as long as he showed up consistently. I stressed that he'd only be playing if he didn't spend every saturday night getting wasted and miss every Sunday game as a result. He said (convincingly) he had the problem under control now, so I agreed to let him join. Player 1 protested, saying it wasn't fair that the young brother couldn't play, but DM friend could, given that I stated 6 players was too many as a reason the kid couldn't play. I said (truthfully) that the MAIN reason I didn't want the kid in the group was because of his utter lack of experience. DM friend didn't have that problem. Again, Player 1 respected the desicion (he's a good guy). Then things went bad. Due to his self-inflicted problems, DM Friend has missed quite a few games. Player 1 is now upset that I let THIS guy play and not his little brother, and I know he has a point. I've known DM friend a very long time, and he's not going to change his habbits as a result of my talking to him (wish I had though of that before I let him join ). Now I look like a massive jerk, and not without warrant. I know that replies of "you're a jerk" are forthcomming, and I will not ask that you refrain. But I will ask for helpful advice, particularly if you have gone through a similar thing. I do not think you did anything wrong except for not stating you real reason up front the first time. Why is he mad anyway? Your friend being drunk still does not invalidate the fact that the kid would slow the game down. However, it does not take most people a long time to learn how to play. If you think the 14 yr old will catch on then let him/her play unless you have other reasons, but if you know the kid and they will not catch on fast enough then don't change your mind.
Kouk 09-26-07, 06:57 AM	Im going to echo the sentiment of a couple others... Apologize. Especially to Player 1, as from the way you tell it he has been pretty good at taking answers he doesnt like and trying to do things for the benefit of the group rather than just him and his brother. After you do this, give the kid a chance... Ask the party if they wouldnt mind if he joined, give him a throw away NPCish character to see if HE really wants to play and to see how dedicated he can be. After a few weeks, if hes still showing up and still wanting to play, have him roll up a character of his own. Yes, these are my sentiments as well. I would say though, perhaps you could allow the kid in on a "trial basis", not making any commitments that he definitely will or will not be a player. Try to make it clear the kid is not obligated to play in your campaign if he doesn't like it, and you won't take it personally if he decides to stop. If a player wants to leave, but feels he can't because of pressure from the group or his brother, then he will possibly display unproductive behavior in-game. Also make it clear if the kid can interrupt things to ask questions. That age is about the best for learning things. Also ask the brother to teach the kid the rules as much as possible in advance.
temparus2000 09-26-07, 06:33 PM	However, how mature is your game, really? Would a 14 year old truly not grasp what's happening? Would it somehow spoil his childhood to learn some of the things your campaign includes. I understand not allowing kids in on games. I really do. I've done the same myself. However, it's obvious he wants to play, and I say that teaching a kid how to play can be rewarding when they grow up into a good player. By mature, I mean that it includes devils as a main plot hook. And my devils play as "avatars of law and evil", the way I think they should. They are led by planning and logical progression toward goals, versus instinct and desires. That's the lawful part. The evil part: they murder, pillage, torture, and rape. I don't go into great, extravogant detail concerning it, but it happens and the PC's occasionally see it happen, sometimes when they can't do much about it. I know they don't HAVE to be played this way, I could "tone it down", but I don't want to. I think it's really important (in my campaign) to convey just HOW horrible and nasty the devils are. I don't feel comfortable doing that with a 14-year old in the room.
temparus2000 09-26-07, 06:57 PM	Well, start by enforcing what you said to DM friend when you let him join. Boot him from the game. Then (if you haven't already) sincerely apologize to friend1 & the group as a whole. This has indeed all been done. I may be a jerk, but I know when an apology is owed (whether to me or from me). I took care of that stuff (including booting DM Friend) before I decided to throw this problem on the boards. Couldn't hurt, I figured. Re-reading the OP, I wasn't too clear on what I was asking for. My apologies to all (see, I'm not such a bad guy :) ). Here's the problem, crystal clear: Player 1 wants me to include kid brother in game on the grounds that I F'ed up with my player choice with DM Friend. I know he has a point, I'm not saying he dosen't. But I would have to tone down the nastiness of my devils for that (they are explained in the above post of mine). Player 1 says his brother could handle that, but I couldn't. I can't go into some of the things I want the devils to do with him in the room. I just won't. So should I tone down the theme of the campaign because I owe Player 1? Player 1 isn't threatening to quit, or anything, nothing is going to derail the campagin, but I know I owe him this time, so it's a hard choice (for me at least....some of you seem rather, well, cruel...but that's a part of mass-advice, I suppose :) )
Kouk 09-26-07, 08:28 PM	Here's the problem, crystal clear: Player 1 wants me to include kid brother in game on the grounds that I F'ed up with my player choice with DM Friend. I know he has a point, I'm not saying he dosen't. But I would have to tone down the nastiness of my devils for that (they are explained in the above post of mine). Player 1 says his brother could handle that, but I couldn't. I can't go into some of the things I want the devils to do with him in the room. I just won't. So should I tone down the theme of the campaign because I owe Player 1? Player 1 isn't threatening to quit, or anything, nothing is going to derail the campagin, but I know I owe him this time, so it's a hard choice (for me at least....some of you seem rather, well, cruel...but that's a part of mass-advice, I suppose :) ) If it is a matter of the "content" of your RP in that sense, then I would put it to the other players whether they want you to tone down the campaign to allow the guys brother to play. If he quits, you can revert. Personally, I dislike "mature" campaigns in the sense of gratuitous "evilness" beyond the killing, maiming and/or eating of sentient creatures. I prefer "cartoonish" violence over "realistic" gore and... such. Perhaps your players may feel the same (especially when you say you just have gross things "happen" in front of them that they can't stop).
gregttrombley 09-26-07, 11:11 PM	Please do not make the mistake of inviting the 14 year old brother out of guilt. This will only lead to more problems. Keep the entire group in mind. If you have had a mature game going up until now you might not want to include someone so young. Try a trial second mini game with Player 1 and his brother to see how it might work in the main game. Another thing to keep in mind is the relationship the brothers have with one another. If they have a bad relationship, which is unlikely due to player 1 wanting to include him, there could be a lot of conflict between the two which tends to cause problems in a game. If they have a very close relationship he could, being the older brother, be overprotective and defensive of his little brother. Again there is a lot of potentional for problems. Try a mini game and take it from there. If you don't have the time to run two games see if someone else could run a game and just sit in or play in the game. This will give you experience with the brother to see if he would mesh good with the group. I hope this helps.:)
Dragonsblood 09-26-07, 11:57 PM	If I were in your situation I would have done the exact same things. Though I wouldn't feel guilty about it. I would apologize to the older brother, but that would be that. You are in the right with your actions. I've also played with teenagers in the past (in my adult years), and it's not an experience I'd care to repeat. Sometimes, even most of the time, they can act as mature as an adult. But the few times they don't, it can really spoil a campaign.
CroBob 09-27-07, 12:38 AM	By mature, I mean that it includes devils as a main plot hook. And my devils play as "avatars of law and evil", the way I think they should. They are led by planning and logical progression toward goals, versus instinct and desires. That's the lawful part. The evil part: they murder, pillage, torture, and rape. I don't go into great, extravogant detail concerning it, but it happens and the PC's occasionally see it happen, sometimes when they can't do much about it. I know they don't HAVE to be played this way, I could "tone it down", but I don't want to. I think it's really important (in my campaign) to convey just HOW horrible and nasty the devils are. I don't feel comfortable doing that with a 14-year old in the room. Understandable.
temparus2000 09-27-07, 04:50 PM	Try a mini game and take it from there. If you don't have the time to run two games see if someone else could run a game and just sit in or play in the game. This will give you experience with the brother to see if he would mesh good with the group. I hope this helps.:) it does, and it sound like the best thing to do, all told.
temparus2000 09-27-07, 04:52 PM	If I were in your situation I would have done the exact same things. Though I wouldn't feel guilty about it. At least I'm not the only jerk around here :)