Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bpramone 05-29-04, 08:30 PM	I'm sorry for adding yet another question about morality and falling paladins, but I'm in a pickle here. I have made a mini-adventure about two vampires -- one (I'll call her Betty) who is feeding off people in a town and another (I'll call him Andy) who is protecting the people. Andy is fending off Betty because of a deal he made with the townsfolk. He is allowed to feed off of anyone from out of town who comes in, the people will not try to destroy him, he will not feed upon the townsfolk or their descentants and he will not make any new vampires. In return he is not hunted during the day by the townsfolk (which happend 200 years ago and thus the bargain was made to spare Andy's life). Andy is evil in that he sends messages trying to get out of towners to come so he can kill them (he is lawful evil). Betty is evil too (neutral evil). In the party is a Paladin of Freedom (CG paladin from "Unearthed Arcana"). Would the paladin fall if he aids Andy in his quest (joining with evil)? Or would he be OK because he is defeating a greater evil? Would he be obliged to battle Andy if they end up defeating Betty? Would the paladin be obliged to spare Andy's life because he is protecting his people and living within their standards, not enslaving them and allowing them to keep their free-will? The villagers do not know about Betty and right now thinks that Andy is responsibile for the bodies drained of all blood (which they go through precautions when found to make sure they don't become vampires). I realize there is probably no one answer to this question, but I just want to hear your opinions. I do not want to put the paladin in a situation where he has no choice except to fall. Thanks, bpramone
Lord Psynister 05-29-04, 09:15 PM	Last time I checked, it was the DM that decided whether or not the Paladin fell. It's your campaign, do what you want with him. If it was my game, I would allow him to join with the lesser of the evil to defeat the greater, but once it was done, the Paladin would need to deal with Andy. Here are some options you might use: 1. You might have him make an attempt to convert Andy to a non-evil alignment. 2. Since Andy helped him in removing Betty, the Paladin gives Andy X days to either run or prepare himself for a duel. Paladin returns on the last day to find whether or not the vamp is still around, if he is, then he's got to kill him. He can challenge him 1 on 1, or he can take the group with him. If I used this one, I'd probably require it 1 on 1, or else strip one of the Paladin's abilities for the same number of days that he gave Andy to prepare himself or run. Hmm, that's all I can think of right off the top of my head. Hope it helps at least a bit.
Edymnion 05-29-04, 09:39 PM	You should read the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedmann, its all about, to boil it down into D&D terms, a Paladin and a Vampire Noble having to get along with each other to save the world from an even bigger threat. So the paladin could work with Andy to fight the bigger evil, then find a way to deal with Andy. Of course, this all assumes that the Paladin has something in his oath that says he MUST destroy ALL evil he finds. From where I'm sitting, he could very well not only not kill Andy, he could intentionally leave him in charge of the town. Think about it, evil or not, that town has a sworn defender in Andy the Vampire. In return for their protection from vamp hunters, he is defending them from outside attack. Killing Andy would leave the town vulnrable. The way out of all this that I see is that the Paladin actually make a pact with Andy. In exchange for the party's help defeating Betty, Andy will only lure other evil people in to feed on (say thieves, bandits, criminals, etc) and defend the town from attackers. Long as Andy follows those simple rules, the Paladin will be happy to turn a blind eye on him, and possibly even actively deter anyone else from trying to hunt Andy down. Andy may be evil, but he's Lawful Evil. Lawful Evil characters can and do live peaceful lives in Good societies, so long as they follow the rules.
Veton 05-29-04, 10:13 PM	If I remember correctly, the Paladin of Freedom can not work with Evil people willingly, unless they are going undercover. I feel that the people of the town really aren't getting much choice in the situation. They pretty much have to obey this creature far more powerful then them, or suffer from him killing them and/or making more vampires. Originally posted by Edymnion Think about it, evil or not, that town has a sworn defender in Andy the Vampire. In return for their protection from vamp hunters, he is defending them from outside attack. Killing Andy would leave the town vulnrable. Actually, it looks like to me that Andy is just striking a deal that he will only kill people from out of the town, and not the people of the town, if they leave him alone and don't call anyone to get rid of him.
MoogleEmpMog 05-30-04, 02:02 AM	Andy and Betty the vampires? I can't help it, but those names for vamps (even if pseudonyms for board use) are funny. :D Seriously, though, the paladin would, IMC, be able to work with Andy to vanquish Betty (assuming that the latter is, in fact, the greater of two evils - or at least appears to be). It may go against the PHB code, but, well... my opinions on the PHB's concept of morality aren't much of a secret. Now, if this were a *normal* paladin, Betty definitely would be the greater of two evils, being NE instead of LE and as such further from the pally's alignment. On the other hand, a paladin of freedom might find the wild and free life of Betty the NE vamp evil, yet in its own way admirable, while Andy is, in the pally's eyes, a hypocrite who plays at binding himself and subtly binds others in the process. With that said, we'll assume Andy really is the lesser of two evils. Yes, I would allow the paladin to work with him if it's necessary to complete his mission. Even BEFORE vanquishing Betty, however, the pally and the vamp need to have a long talk. Perhaps the pally could convince Andy to only kill people who attack the town (as suggested above) and to take only non-fatal portions of blood from others, still not creating new vamps. In essence, converting Andy to LN in return for the pally's help against Betty. I would expect a normal paladin to try this during the course of an adventure in which he had to cooperate with a vampire, but again the fact that yours is a freedom pally presents a problem - not wanting to place strictures on others, and having a problem with the Lawful part of Andy's alignment as well as the Evil part. Still, he'd probably settle things by demanding that the vamp not kill innocents, out of town or in. Heck, the town, if sufficiently large, could make Andy their executioner as well as their protector - since IMCs, execution is as common and as morally correct in the eyes of most folk, paladins manifestly included, as it was in the era the campaign largely mimics.
Fixxxer 05-30-04, 02:07 AM	Originally posted by Veton If I remember correctly, the Paladin of Freedom can not work with Evil people willingly, unless they are going undercover. Technically, the standard paladin can't work with anyone evil either, since he "cannot willingly associate with evil." Of course, by literal interpretation, this means that a paladin is not allowed to try converting and evil person, since he would have to associate with them to do so. I would say that as long as the paladin is making an attempt not only to stop Betty, but to keep Andy from hurting others as well (by whatever means...probably peaful means, since he would be allied with Andy), he's in the clear as far as morality goes. However, if he pats himself on the back for being so good and for stopping Betty and then he leaves Andy to harm others (I'm assuming he knows what Andy is doing), then I'd say he's probably got a stern talking to (at least) comming from his superior. "Evil must die! However, since you helped me, I won't try to destroy you, Andy. Go about your business." It seems to me that this would be a WONDERFUL place to introduce the conversion rules from the Book of Exalted Deeds...unless you're not using anything from that book.
MinusInnocence 05-30-04, 02:24 AM	Whether the Paladin negotiates with Andy is irrelevent. But if he discovers that Betty is the true culprit and that Andy is essentially being framed for the recent murder spree, he is morally obligated to clear the vampire's name. Unjust persecution is the bane of a CG Paladin's existence. Now, if he DOES decide to work alongside Andy... well, that's the difference between attacking an Orc with a dagger and a bastard sword, isn't it? Why go it alone when you can recruit someone who hates your enemy anyway? On the other hand, there is the tiny issue of the Paladin and the Vampire being diametrically opposed, as far as Alignment goes. In the end, Andy is helping the townsfolk, not hurting them. As such, the Paladin should respect him as a worthy opponent down the road, but right now he's really not causing any problems. He MIGHT take issue with the lack of discretion on Andy's part as to which out-of-towners he feeds on... the earlier suggestion of demanding he only drink from villains, or at the very least not kill anyone outright while feeding, is a good one. In my opinion, the Paladin would be a moron for NOT trying to strengthen relations with this vampire. Unfortunately, idiocy alone isn't justification for Falling.
Veton 05-30-04, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Technically, the standard paladin can't work with anyone evil either, since he "cannot willingly associate with evil." But the original poster is talking about the Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana, who is Chaotic Good and therefore has a different code of conduct then the LG Paladin.
gorion 05-30-04, 03:48 AM	I can't get why a Paladin of Freedom would work with a Lawful Evil creature. It's like a standard paladin who works with a CE. Seems fairly impossible to me. While a non-paladin could perfectly work with this vampire, I think that a paladin of freedom would simply hate him. Come on, it's Lawful AND it's Evil. He admits that he's feeding with people who comes to the village. All people. I think that a paladin of freedom would want to end this injustice as soon as possible. He shouldn't think about Betty. He believes that he can defeat Betty with some work too. Why shouldn't be so?
Sir Neil 05-30-04, 09:37 AM	Originally posted by bpramone In the party is a Paladin of Freedom (CG paladin from "Unearthed Arcana"). Would the paladin fall if he aids Andy in his quest (joining with evil)? Or would he be OK because he is defeating a greater evil? This CG class may not associate with Evil characters, and may not help anyone who uses them to further Lawful or Evil ends.
ehrin 05-30-04, 09:59 AM	Based on what you wrote, I would say "No", the paladin cannot ally with Andy. That leaves some room for the paladin to work, ie, he could ignore andy for the moment while he pursues a greater evil (betty), but he must not ally himself with evil, even in an attempt to combat greater evil. As a paladin, he must find a way to do it in purity. I had to read carefully to decide if Andy was truly evil or if he just got slapped with a "vampires have evil alignments" tag. The thing that convinced me he was actively evil: He lures unsuspecting people into town and then kills them. He could, for instance, simply feed a little here or there, which I would say was more neutral, simply feeding to survive. But instead of only sipping a little, he kills when he does not need to. That is evil.
King_Sloth 06-02-04, 10:24 PM	Originally posted by ehrin Based on what you wrote, I would say "No", the paladin cannot ally with Andy. That leaves some room for the paladin to work, ie, he could ignore andy for the moment while he pursues a greater evil (betty), but he must not ally himself with evil, even in an attempt to combat greater evil. As a paladin, he must find a way to do it in purity. I had to read carefully to decide if Andy was truly evil or if he just got slapped with a "vampires have evil alignments" tag. The thing that convinced me he was actively evil: He lures unsuspecting people into town and then kills them. He could, for instance, simply feed a little here or there, which I would say was more neutral, simply feeding to survive. But instead of only sipping a little, he kills when he does not need to. That is evil. I have to agree with Ehrin completly on this subject . A Paladin of Freedom would want to destroy both Vampires , in any order. She is correct in that Andy is killing when he does not have to and Betty is just plain old Evil . Personally, Nuke'm from Orbit . It's the only way to be sure.:cool: :king: King_Sloth :king:
totoro 06-03-04, 02:17 AM	Originally posted by King_Sloth A Paladin of Freedom would want to destroy both Vampires, in any order. And the wonderful thing about being chaotic good: you can lie to andy to get him to work with you, then betray him for no other reason than he's evil. Paladins of freedom coined the phrase lawful stupid. Edit: I forgot. There is some silly requirement in the class description about not associating with evil. So, I guess paladins of freedom are chaotic stupid.
MrkGrismer 06-03-04, 02:59 PM	The biggest problem I see is the entire 'knows already' thing. If the Paladin has not been told that Andy is an Evil Vampire then the only way he would have of knowing is either a detect evil (damn those spells!) or by observing actions. If Andy's alignment were obfuscated from the detect evil then the Paladin could only judge by actions. Thus as long as the Paladin was not aware of any evil actions being committed by an associate then he would be avoiding the entire 'willingly associate' thing. How does the Paladin know Andy is evil? Otherwise, once he knows that the creature is irrideamably evil (and I believe Vampires are supposed to be irrideamable, that negative energy plane undeath thing and all) then it is just going to clash with the Paladin's positive energy eversomuch... and we just can't have THAT.
St. Maelstrom 06-03-04, 10:47 PM	I love paladins, vampires, and detect evil spells, but I have learned that I have a unique take on all of them. As a fellow DM (if it was in my campaign world) I would rule the paladin would have to destroy them both. Then again that is just me.
Lucid dark Child 06-04-04, 03:01 AM	Lets simplify this thing then look at it. Andy= evil vampire ( pally must destroy) Andy= undead (must destroy) Andy is murdering inocent travellers and luring them to their death=evil ( the pally simply can not stand for this.) My opion is simple, strickly by the rules the palidin must destroy Andy. Betty too but that doesn't seem to be the question. If the palidin offered a one on one then I'd award extra xp. I would not penalize if the pally brought a possy. How ever if the palidin allows Andy to remain a threat to anything then he falls.
Hathorym 06-04-04, 03:51 AM	It really depends on the Vampire, I would think. If Andy approached the paladin saying, "Hey! I'm a vampire and I really need your help" then he's asking for a sword in the gut. However, if Andy was an intelligent vampire, he would completely use the situation to his advantage. 1. Don't give yourself away. The trick would be to come off as completely innocuous so that the Paladin would not even consider using detect evil. Meeting as close to sundown as possible will help considerably. Appearing distressed and scared tends to put paladins in concerned mode. 2. Appeal to the baser instincts A nice little story about how Andy's daughter had a friend named Betty, and one day Betty got all fangy and kidnapped his daughter, blah blah blah... any knight save the princess story will do. 3. Prepare your defenses. Once you've convinced Joe Paladin that a princess needs to be saved, there is a chance that Betty will spill the beans. Get those unholy vials and protection from good spells up and ready. 4. Use the goody goody to advance your own status. If the paladin destroys Betty, make sure he brags about it. The town doesn't know about her anyway. Once the Paladin states that he's destroyed a vampire, they may assume it was Andy, and you're free and clear to begin a new reign of terror... I'll let your imagination work here... Remember, evil doesn't announce their evil. Evil uses subterfuge and trickery to get evil to do its dirty work. If Andy has any sort of brain power and evilness at all, Mr. Paladin never has to even KNOW that Andy is a vampire. But, in the case that Andy is a moron and just announces it, I'm thinkin' yeah... Mr. Paladin should probably just off the freak.
bpramone 06-04-04, 10:16 AM	Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I realize that I did not make something quite clear in my original post. About 200 years ago, the townsfolk marched on Andy's mansion as a mob. They broke in during the daytime (knowing he is a vampire (they call him 'stregoi' instead of vampire) and ended his evil reign over them at that time by making a bargain. This bargain lets Andy remain in power, but he does not feed on the townsfolk and he will protect them in times of need. The moral problem for the Paladin of Freedom (in my opinion) is whether or not to let Andy live and remain as lord of the city (I think those two go hand in hand). The townsfolk are not enslaved or even being controlled by Andy, he is more like a guard dog and a duke all wrapped into one. Now with this said... Andy is indeed truly evil. He will lure unsuspecting victims (always people from outside the town) to his place and revel in the mental anguish he causes them before he decides to feed on them. BUT... Andy really does want to see his town prosper and does want his people protected. The people see their protector as someone who is very good at what he does and he will obey the bargain made between him and their ancestors 200 years ago. But in the back of their heads, they always think there is a possibility he could snap, again like a pit bull guard dog. With the new killings in town, some of the people think Andy has 'snapped' or at least gone against the bargain. They will tell the party most of this information (as it is common knowledge in the town and because they think Andy broke the pact, then they can too) so the party will indeed know that Andy is 'stregoi' (which the players are smart enough to know is a vampire, I think). There are some other twists including my favorite of Betty not being a regular vampire, but one based off of an Anne Rice Vampite template where they are outsiders not undead (I had a previous post to determine this template, thanks tho those of you who posted on that one too) and can be differing alignments, not just evil. So from your posts, the paladin could try to convert her. I'll have to look at the Book of Exalted Deeds as I am allowing one of my characters to go into the Annointed Knight class if he ever gets a high enough level. Thanks again for your posts, they were a help for me in figuring out what I think I'll do. I am going to interpret the Paladin of Freedom as a "people's knight" instead of a "king's knight". In that case I think that the wellfare of the townsfolk are more important than the basic "destroy all evil" clause. The townsfolk will want their protector alive, so if he asks the townsfolk their opinion and then lets Andy live (assuming there is a conversion try along with check-up every once in a while) then there is no need to kill him. In fact if he does kill Andy, that will leave the townsfolk in a worse situation and that, in my opinion, goes against the code of a Paladin of Freedom. Any thoughts on that? bpramone
Silverthrone 06-04-04, 10:25 AM	IMC: The paladin would fall if he decided to side with either against the other. They are both his enemies, and choosing one over the other is still choosing to aide evil. They are both enemies and must be both dealt with as such, on equal footing in this regard. He could not work with one against the other. Yes, it is a high standard, but such is the standards of the paladin, at least in my opinion, and thus in my campaign. Even lesser evil is still evil, and evil is to be destroyed at all chances.
MrkGrismer 06-04-04, 12:58 PM	... and lesser evil is easier to destroy. No grey area here. If the Paladin knows Andy is a vampire, then he would be inclined to detect evil on him. If evil, it pretty much is a convert or die. Cannot be allied without falling. Andy preying on only people from outside the village doesn't really help, afterall from what I understand the Paladin is from outside the village.
Karada 06-05-04, 02:19 AM	Umm Im assuming the Paladin is from out of town. Wouldnt andy feed on him anyway?
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-04, 05:15 AM	What G-d does this Pally worship?
Al2902 06-05-04, 05:43 AM	I'm not sure what the precise rules about the Paladin of Freedom are, but if I was a CG 'pseudo-paladin' I'd work with Andy to kill Betty than slay Andy. Being chaotic, I have no compunctions about breaking my oath to evil creatures or even deceiving them so long as irreconcilable evil is destroyed in the end. As a paladin, I'm not so sure. He's more likely to either strike off on his own or work with Andy, conclude a satisfactory bargain and then leave. Neither a CG nor a LG paladin would let Andy continue to lord it over the town and occasionally eat out-of-towners. An evil who is nice to one group of people does not preclude the paladin from fighting the evil: a hideous megalomaniacal necromancer who wants to turn the world into zombie slaves is not exempt divine punishment if he is a good family man.
St. Maelstrom 06-05-04, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Al2902 I'm not sure what the precise rules about the Paladin of Freedom are, but if I was a CG 'pseudo-paladin' I'd work with Andy to kill Betty than slay Andy. Being chaotic, I have no compunctions about breaking my oath to evil creatures or even deceiving them so long as irreconcilable evil is destroyed in the end. As a paladin, I'm not so sure. He's more likely to either strike off on his own or work with Andy, conclude a satisfactory bargain and then leave. Neither a CG nor a LG paladin would let Andy continue to lord it over the town and occasionally eat out-of-towners. An evil who is nice to one group of people does not preclude the paladin from fighting the evil: a hideous megalomaniacal necromancer who wants to turn the world into zombie slaves is not exempt divine punishment if he is a good family man. Hear! Hear! This is beautifully stated.