Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sleepyshark 01-29-05, 04:11 AM	So my group wants a monk/kensai who will be LE. Our discussion on morality lead to this: Evil is anything that is not good - Stealing, killing, hurting, etc. Lawful prevents certain things from happening - stealing, killing without process (death penalties, declared war, etc.) Evil cares about the ends, not the means, while lawful cares only about the means. The PHB states that a LE character might have a rule about not killing children if possible. This is a weak example of LE. I.E., a LG character would not kill children, even if (using a previous thread's example) said child had a demon within who would destroy the world if allowed to escape. A non LG character would have to do it. I'm trying to find a real world example of a LE person, LG is easy, Mother Teresa. One of the players suggested that a LE character would be a dictator who expected everyone to follow his rules and would not hesitate to punish severly those that did not. I asked, "would the dictator react with kindness?" He responded, "No, he's evil." I countered that even Hitler was nice to his friends and subordinates via gifts and promotions. Bottom line, any ideas on LE?
Fuzzus 01-29-05, 05:18 AM	I countered that even Hitler was nice to his friends and subordinates via gifts and promotions. The way that I see it, alignments are not absolutes. In the D&D world, it has to be argued that mortals cannot be completely anything, as far as good and evil go. That's what fiends and celestials are for, right? I think that Hitler is a fantastic example of a LE character. He took an essentially collapsed nation and rebuilt it into a highly structured and ordered war machine. That's the lawful part. He also took over a lot of territory that wasn't his and killed a lot of innocent people. That's the evil part. Overall, despite the fact that Hitler was nice to his subordinates, loved his dog, and thought what he was doing was right, he was still evil. You're also assuming all acts of alignment balance out equally. From the example you cited, giving a beggar a copper coin is the same as sacrificing oneself to save one's friends' lives: both are good! In the case of Hitler, the overwhelming effect of his actions was evil, and they overwhelmed any good he might have done. More germane to your topic might be the example of samurai. They live according to a highly structured code -- bushido -- which makes them lawful. The highest tenet of bushido, as I understand it, is to serve one's lord fully and faithfully (I believe this is also part of being a kensai, swearing fealty to a lord or oath). What happens if said samurai has a corrupt, evil lord? His evil actions -- in the world of D&D, at least -- would overwhelm his alignment, even if he didn't want to do them. However, if the samurai's lord is honorable and good, and the samurai obeys all his commands, but gets into the habit of killing any peasant who looks him in the face, is that samurai good or evil? I'd have to say the latter. Rambling, as usual, but maybe it would help if you told us what exactly makes this monk character evil? Is there rhyme or reason to his evil acts? My examples of real world or fictional LE characters/entities: dictators, mobsters, exploitative corporations, corrupt politicians, the "good" pirates in such movies as Pirates of the Caribbean (self-serving brigands, all of them, but they do adhere to "the Code"), etc. Remember, it's the structure and the tendency of one's actions that makes one lawful evil. Tossing the beggar a Sack o' Infinite Platinum Pieces (TM) doesn't excuse stabbing him to death a minute later.
FriendoftheDork 01-29-05, 08:35 AM	Being evil isn't the same as being Vile. Evil people doesen't go around doing evil deeds all the time. Sure, they might be nice to their families, friends, dogs. But if they spend any leisure time exterminating people and creating "lebensraum" they're bascially evil :) About Hitler being lawful... eh I'm not so sure. Ok he believed in his own delusions of grandeur but that doesen't make you lawful. He didn't so much respect Germany's traditions and laws but made new ones. He was ruthless to anyone who went against him, and ordered the execution of even his friends if he felt they were getting too much power (think of the SA leaders). In the end he blamed everyone else for his own incompetence and madness and he probalby was mad at this point as he had convinced himself that the German people had to be exterminated for their failure. As far as D&D alignment go, I'd say he started LE, drifted towards NE and then became CE (mad). Germany became a structured and ordered war machine, but that was because Germany is a structured and ordered nation. Hitler didn't make it structured or ordedered, in fact it became more chaotic since the secret pocile and SA were often given free reigns and could beat up and kill people with no trial. And later trials were a mockery of justice. However, there were alot of LE Nazis and even common soldiers because they believed 100% in the system.
Scatomancer 01-29-05, 10:02 AM	This is the way I envision the motivations of Lawful Evil aligned people: They use the laws of the government to excuse evil acts "for the greater good" They use "morality" or "reason" to justify repression. They excuse evils that are committed by others so long as they are not affected and the acts align with their philosophy. They are interested in stability in government, as long as there are loopholes that they can exploit to grant them immunity from justice. They twist the law of the land to serve their own ends, rather than the good of the common man. They kill only as a last resort, knowing there are consequences for actions. Instead, they prefer to instill fear or hopelessness in the weak, discredit the reputation of their rivals or set up others to take the fall. Domineering when in positions of power and unlikely to share it without good reason. Of course, this is my personal opinion. I decided to leave out examples so I wouldn't start a flame war or something stupid. I hope this helps you get a grasp on LE. P.S. LG doesn't necessarilly mean that the person is a saint or stupid, it just means that they hold themselves to a higher ideal. The paladin in your example might exhaust all his possibilities to save the child, but if the demon within begins killing others, he would be forced to get over his moral dilemna and smite the demon no matter the guise it takes. Of course, he would have to deal with the consequences of his actions and probably seek atonement from his god to regain paladinhood.
sleepyshark 01-29-05, 12:30 PM	The monk was a drow child traveling with her family to a religious celebration when her caravan was attacked by a party of good adventures. Only her and her brother escaped, while everyone else was killed. They vowed to avenge their family's deaths and traveled to a monastery (multi-alignment/multi-race) which took them in. The party will consist of (all drow) LE monk/kensai, LE wizard/archmage, CE warlock, LE paladin (created class via etools), NE thief/assassin, and a NE hexblade. I also liked the example of Hitler, a real personification of true evil and madness. I also agree with the fact that he became chaotic towards the end of his life. It's our first evil campaign and we are all trying to get a grip on the "new" alignments. With that being said, I've told the players that we are going to roleplay the characters and let their alignment develop as we play, but the kensai's oath of service poses a problem. The character must adhere to the oath as well as to her alignment. At the very least, we'll have some time to figure out her alignment as the player becomes more familiar with her character and then we'll apply the alignment restriction when she takes her first level of kensai.
Tevish Szat 01-29-05, 01:40 PM	A good example of LE, IMHO, would be Darth Vader. Evil, certainly, but holding rigid to his rules and following his emporer loyally (at least until the end...) IMO, Lawful evil does Evil things through Lawful means. In other words, the Lawful evil villian dosn't go out and slaughter the pesants to take their land, he manipulates and corrupts the courts to take their land through perfectly legal means, and there is no legal or lawful dispute to his claim after that. He uses the system, codes, and laws he adhears to in order to further his own evil ends.
TLomon 01-29-05, 04:16 PM	Other examples of LE behavior in the real world and media... * Mafia * Dictator of Nation who is also a warmonger. * Darth Maul --- There you go, a LE Kensai so to speak. To cover what you have stated, I believe I found a flaw... and yes, this is controversial. * Stealing is chaotic, not evil. A LE Kensai is not an oxymoron. By being lawful, it could mean the kensai follows a strict code of honor and discipline. Perhaps have the play write up what he feels the code should be? Well, those are my thoughts.
Shard of Suzail 01-29-05, 05:17 PM	I wouldnt label Darth Maul as lawful. He is, in many ways, a direct personification of the rage and violence of the dark side. He also makes no long term devious plans, he just kills things. Darth Sidious, however, is Lawful evil. They are both evil, but evil in different ways. Together they form a nice reflection of the two sides of law and chaos acting for the greater benefit of an evil organisation. It is a common trait of villains that the lawful evil mastermind or priest type organises the chaotic evil beserkers into a workable fighting force. Saruman organising the orcs and wild men is a further example of this process in action, as seen in the lord of the rings films. *** So often have i seen these "what is lawful" arguments that in any d and d game i run from now on, i`ll replace lawful and chaotic with "Ordered" and "Disordered" or something to that effect. The term "Lawful" is too easily confused with our modern day "law", which isnt a good thing. In fact, as books like Catch-22 illustrate, it is possible to have a legal framework or organisation that is, by its nature, chaotic. It's best not to think too much into it, it just hurts your head.
FriendoftheDork 01-29-05, 06:52 PM	Other examples of LE behavior in the real world and media... * Mafia * Dictator of Nation who is also a warmonger. * Darth Maul --- There you go, a LE Kensai so to speak. To cover what you have stated, I believe I found a flaw... and yes, this is controversial. * Stealing is chaotic, not evil. A LE Kensai is not an oxymoron. By being lawful, it could mean the kensai follows a strict code of honor and discipline. Perhaps have the play write up what he feels the code should be? Well, those are my thoughts. What flaw did you find? And in what? Stealing may be chaotic, but even lawful people steal sometimes. Professional thieves are very seldom lawful, because of their profession. A lawful thief could be a thief that only steals from specific people or does it in some ritualistic manner The traditional mafia can be LE, but most have perhaps of several alignments, including CE and perhaps even LG. I wouldn't label Darth Maul LE too, since I don't think he has enough character to warrant an alignment. He's a killing machine.