Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StrahdVonZarovich 02-19-05, 05:43 PM	Well, this occured a couple of years ago, but I was wondering lately if we could consider this an act of ''pure evil''. When we first beginned to play D&D 3.0, a couple of years ago, I was playing an Elven Cleric of Pelor, and a friend of mine, a human Paladin of Pelor. I was kinda angry one day, and insulted Pelor for ''x'' reason (I can't remember, this being far too long) and the Dm, being an angry bastard shooted me with a Sunbeam right on me( I was lvl-8 back then, so I had enough HP to survive the blast, it was just a warning), and top of that, the Paladin grabed me and slashed me not only once, but TWICE in the face to permently disfigured me ! Was that correct from a supposedly LG Pal ? I think not, not only that, but he refuses to pay his local tribute to his god, 'cause I'm the one having the nearest church (we much later established a small town in which he have his small keep, and me my own church nearby) 'cause A) I'm the owner of the church and his char doesn't like me too much after that ''incident'' and B) he said that he has enough responsabilities(because of his leaadership and epic leadership feats so he can attrack to up to 1000 and + followers with his charismas score of '30, he got that because of a cloak of Epic-Charisma, but thats another story), so he can decide to not donade his local tribute once a month (I thinks thats a second edition rule, though, so I'm not sure about this, I suppose I should chk out the 3.5 PHB for that). Its not that I care too much about it actualy, but he have a large amount of gold, something like 1 million if I'm right, and I think Palys aren't suppose to have that much on 'em, I mean aren't they suppose to give all their ''over'' cash to some local temple or good causes, or anything like this ? I stoped playing that Cleric after that incident, but he continued playing his ''un-fallen'' Paly resulting in a rather huge gap between our lvls. He's lvl-21, and I'm lvl-8. So you know why he've got so much money...he's EPIC. But still, I find that amount of gold rather ridicilous. Btw the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting went out, we both converted to Torm, since Pelor is nothing but an old fool, if you ask me, besides who gives a damn about Sun anyway ? So I though, if I EVER allow him to re-play his paly, should I consider him ''fallen'' ? So ? I'm waiting for your thoughs on this matter.
aaron3579 02-19-05, 05:55 PM	Is English your second language? Proper conjugation of verbs is of paramount importance. :eek: All right, this is going to be a flame war, so I'm just going to state my personal opinion concerning how I think a paladin should be played, and then I'm going to get the hell out of Dodge: I'll start with a blanket-clause: In my campaign world, the typical LG paladin believes that good will triumph over evil not because good is more powerful than evil, but because love is superior to hate. He believes that the only truly effective way to fight hatred and prejudice is with love and compassion. His sword only exists to preserve his own life and the lives of innocents in instances of immediate peril. He does not subscribe to the over-simplified notion that a good guy's first mission in life is to impale or otherwise maim bad guys. Instead, he believes that a good guy's first mission in life is to battle evil itself-- with love. Does this seem overly idealistic and irrational? Of course it does, but then that is why paladins are so closely linked to religion; they are motivated by faith. Should the higher ideals of the paladin be applied to 'good' in general? Well, they don't consider themselves role models for nothing.
Fixxxer 02-19-05, 05:58 PM	I was kinda angry one day, and insulted Pelor for ''x'' reason (I can't remember, this being far too long) and the Dm, being an angry bastard shooted me with a Sunbeam right on me( I was lvl-8 back then, so I had enough HP to survive the blast, If the gods went around "punishing" everyone who trampled on their name, there wouldn't be anyone left alive. Personally, I think your DM was wrong to do this. Pelor is a god of forgiveness, not petty vengence. and top of that, the Paladin grabed me and slashed me not only once, but TWICE in the face to permently disfigured me ! Was that correct from a supposedly LG Pal ? No, it certainly wasn't. If a paladin went around "punishing" everyone who trampled on their god's name, there wouldn't be anyone left alive. As a lawfu good follower of Pelor, it would have been his duty to repremand you, but to do it in such a way that you see why you wsere wrong instead of what sort of punishment you get for being wrong. Sort of like bringing you back into the fold, so to speak. To permenently disfigure you for mere words...doesn't sound good at all to me. so he can decide to not donade his local tribute once a month (I thinks thats a second edition rule, though, so I'm not sure about this, I suppose I should chk out the 3.5 PHB for that). No, there's no hard and fast rule for tribute or tithe in 3.0/3.5. That's pretty much up to the DM and the church. Its not that I care too much about it actualy, but he have a large amount of gold, something like 1 million if I'm right, and I think Palys aren't suppose to have that much on 'em, I mean aren't they suppose to give all their ''over'' cash to some local temple or good causes, or anything like this ? No, there is no rule stating that a paladin can't have a lot of money. Technically, a paladin can be filth rich with no ill effect. The only thing I can think of that supports not having money is the Vow of Poverty feat from The Book of Exalted Deeds. I stoped playing that Cleric after that incident, but he continued playing his ''un-fallen'' Paly resulting in a rather huge gap between our lvls. He's lvl-21, and I'm lvl-8. So you know why he've got so much money...he's EPIC. But still, I find that amount of gold rather ridicilous. What's ridiculous is that the DM is allowing (or perhaps forcing) that large of a gap between the levels of PCs. besides who gives a damn about Sun anyway ? Try living without it for a single day and get back to me on that. So I though, if I EVER allow him to re-play his paly, should I consider him ''fallen'' ? Honestly? I just wouldn't allow the PC to come out of retirment in the first place.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-19-05, 05:59 PM	Yes it is, I am a Québécois or French-Canadian, call it however you want... and yes my native language is french, and not english, I've said that counless times now on these boards... As for this thread being a flame-war, I don't think so, well it isn't yet... Fixxxer : As far as I'm concerned, I can live entire days without the Sun, and it won't affect me at all, in fact I wouldn't mind living the night and sleeping during the day for the rest of my life, and no i'm not a goth neither a vampiric-freak, but you know what I just can't support his light, sure during winter its useful, but at Summer, its soooooooo hot. I'm just more a nocturne person then a day person, I suppose But, anyway, thanks for the advices, though I'm sure more will reply to this thread.
Super Guy 02-19-05, 06:07 PM	As has been said, in the first place, Pelor wouldn't smite you for your anger. What makes him good if his first instinct is violence? Same with the paladin. I can't explain any better than anyone else has said, but that's what is true. The paladin was way in the wrong. I wouldn't say he's fallen, per se, but uh... it's strike one.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-19-05, 06:09 PM	But you would consider giving him a 'warn' and then, IF he makes another mistake like this make him fallen ?
Habronicus 02-19-05, 06:12 PM	Fixxxer pretty much nailed it, so I won't bother reinventing the wheel here. As for the Paladin, he definitely isn't acting Lawful Good, so it might be reasonable to change his alignment and consider him "fallen". Though, to be honest, I thing the GM is the greatest "evil" in the whole story. Gods zapping their followers for bad mouthing? Oh, well... :rolleyes:
Fixxxer 02-19-05, 06:20 PM	Fixxxer : As far as I'm concerned, I can live entire days without the Sun, and it won't affect me at all Incorrect. You can live entire days without seeing the sun. However, the sun provides the heat energy that warms this planet up to a temperature capable of sustaining life. If the sun were to suddenly wink out of existance one day, everything on this planet would quickly become a popsicle. I'd say that makes the sun first in line of things that deserve to be worshipped.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-19-05, 06:26 PM	Fixxxer : Maybe your right, maybe your wrong, I'm no scientist, so I can't argue there, but thrs one thing i know for certain and thats if I want to live the night instead of the day, I can(I know, I already did it) and it won't affect me at all.
Habronicus 02-19-05, 08:01 PM	I'm no scientist, so I can't argue there, but thrs one thing i know for certain and thats if I want to live the night instead of the day, I can(I know, I already did it) and it won't affect me at all. That's because the Sun is still there - you just have a large rock between it and your eyes. I'm no scientist either, but I know the Sun is one of the if not "the", most important element for human existance. In fact, it's funny to notice that all fantasy settings I'm aware of (from book, movie, or game) have at least one Sun. Also, keep in mind that in most fantasy setting, there is no electricity, so "living" during the night is not as easy as it is for us IRL.
Callista 02-20-05, 01:12 AM	Hmmh, well, at any rate, the question isn't really whether we can or can't live without the sun--of course we can't--but what punishment disrespect to a paladin's deity merits. Number one: If Pelor smacks this PC with a sunbeam or whatever for being disrespectful, why are there still people around who disrespect any deity? They should all be smiting heathens left and right! Two: Said paladin shouldn't just cut his fellow party member in the face, with no warning, just for this sort of an offense. Unless he truly believes that the person is irredeemable--in which case, bring out the Smite Evil--a paladin's job is to try to reform the guy who just mocked his deity. In addition to that, just using your sword on a friend without warning is *extremely* dishonorable--that Paladin should have challenged him to a duel instead.
Tiruvel 02-20-05, 09:53 AM	Well, in my opinion, the Paladin didn't commit a very terrible crime. Sure it wasn't the best paladin-behaviour, but he was angry because your character offended his (and your characters) deity. Stop whining....
Lord Ian Stark 02-20-05, 10:35 AM	This is why I only allow EXPERIENCED players to be a Paladin. Permanently scarring a Cleric of your faith (Or any creature) as a Pally because the person is having a bad day and is questioning his faith. Come on this is rediculous. If the only way your Paladin knows how to help someone get back on the right track for believing in a Lawful Good Diety is to scar his face then the Player character of the Paladin has no clue on how to be a Paladin and should become fallen. After hearing how this one event unfolded in your campaign, I would just love to hear how other days go in the LG Paladins life. :rolleyes:
Fixxxer 02-20-05, 01:30 PM	Well, in my opinion, the Paladin didn't commit a very terrible crime. Sure it wasn't the best paladin-behaviour, but he was angry because your character offended his (and your characters) deity. Stop whining.... So if I walk into a Catholic church and tell a priest that I don't think god is a just and loving god so much as just being mean and spiteful and that because I've had some hard times, I think he's singling me out and bullying me, it's ok for the priest to proclaim that I'm a heratic and to cut my face up as punishment for my question of faith because he's angry with me?
Crossover-Chronicler 02-20-05, 02:21 PM	A lot of this has already been said, but here's my take:I was kinda angry one day, and insulted Pelor for ''x'' reason (I can't remember, this being far too long) and the Dm, being an angry bastard shooted me with a Sunbeam right on me( I was lvl-8 back then, so I had enough HP to survive the blast, it was just a warning),Two silly things here: first, Pelor isn't going to be going about smiting very blasphemer with heat rays. Second, most priests don't go around insulting their own gods no matter the provocation.and top of that, the Paladin grabed me and slashed me not only once, but TWICE in the face to permently disfigured me ! Was that correct from a supposedly LG Pal ?given that the "sunbeam incident" occurs in your DM's campaign world, however, the paladin is merely following in his god's example. But given that Pelor is generally portrayed as the "nice guy" of the gods, it seems completely uncharacteristic.I think not, not only that, but he refuses to pay his local tribute to his god,Which isn't required in 3rd edition.'cause I'm the one having the nearest church (we much later established a small town in which he have his small keep, and me my own church nearby) 'cause A) I'm the owner of the church and his char doesn't like me too much after that ''incident'' and B) he said that he has enough responsabilities(because of his leaadership and epic leadership feats so he can attrack to up to 1000 and + followers with his charismas score of '30, he got that because of a cloak of Epic-Charisma, but thats another story), so he can decide to not donade his local tribute once a month (I thinks thats a second edition rule, though, so I'm not sure about this, I suppose I should chk out the 3.5 PHB for that).Even in 2e, a PC paladin wasn't allowed to "donate" to another PC.Its not that I care too much about it actualy, but he have a large amount of gold, something like 1 million if I'm right, and I think Palys aren't suppose to have that much on 'em, I mean aren't they suppose to give all their ''over'' cash to some local temple or good causes, or anything like this ? Nope. Paladins in 2e only had to tithe about 10%. Paladins in 3e tithe nothing.I stoped playing that Cleric after that incident, but he continued playing his ''un-fallen'' Paly resulting in a rather huge gap between our lvls. He's lvl-21, and I'm lvl-8. So you know why he've got so much money...he's EPIC. But still, I find that amount of gold rather ridicilous.That's the DM's fault; he should've had a better method of establishing new characters to prevent that kind of gap.Btw the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting went out, we both converted to Torm, since Pelor is nothing but an old fool, if you ask me, besides who gives a damn about Sun anyway ?I'm not getting into this debate, other than to make the two following statements: 1. "Pelor is the best thing since sliced bread. Come here so I can cut up your face." 2. Setting aside things like "the planet would be a ball of ice without the sun," and "the sun is necessary to produce food" and "we don't have modern technology to make night life any fun in D&D," Pelor is a little more than just "the sun." He's also a god of strength and healing, a generally cool guy to have around, and sponsor of undead-hunters. So I though, if I EVER allow him to re-play his paly, should I consider him ''fallen'' ?If you're the DM, do what you like.
Andrew_980 02-20-05, 06:53 PM	I'd scratch that up as a fallen palidin right there. to permantly scar a preist for having a bad day and faith issues is an evil act.and i'm very easy-going about good and evil and how far palidins can push the line. permanant injuries over nothing violates that, next thing you know he'll be killing the peasant that hugs him for getting his armor dirty
StrahdVonZarovich 02-20-05, 07:00 PM	So, you think, too, that he should deserve to be fallen ?
Shade West 02-20-05, 07:45 PM	Vous employez l'anglais mieux que je parle le francais. Les autres sont des conards. Yes this guy is definitely fallen. However, I wouldn't let him into a campaign I DM anyway. He could play a character with the same concept, background and name, but start him out fresh with a bunch of first level PCs, and slap him with a penalty quickly if he acts like that. Don't try to DM him as he is.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-21-05, 04:34 AM	Humm, qui traite tu donc de connard ? Who did you insulted by calling him a ''connard'' ? The others forum/board guys ? I don't wanna be rude, but there could be serious issues concerning insults there...'Nyway yes, he derserves to be fallen, but I suppose he will never ever play that char again if I say ''He's fallen deal with it, thats it, thats all !'' since he's a big crybaby.
Derren S. 02-21-05, 05:03 AM	Looking at the whole situation, under these circumstances (how ridiculus they ever were) the paladin didn't do much wrong. When a LG god shoots down a Sunbeam at an offender, why should a LG paladin fall for hitting this offender twice? In a normal game, the paladin would fall untill atonement (maybe even including getting you regenerated) and Pelor would also fall, even more so than the paladin.
Naeron 02-21-05, 11:30 AM	<snip> Two: Said paladin shouldn't just cut his fellow party member in the face, with no warning, just for this sort of an offense. Unless he truly believes that the person is irredeemable--in which case, bring out the Smite Evil--a paladin's job is to try to reform the guy who just mocked his deity. In addition to that, just using your sword on a friend without warning is *extremely* dishonorable--that Paladin should have challenged him to a duel instead. Seems a reasonable punishment for a Paladin to hand out to someone who his deity had just smited. And remember there is no permanent disfigurement in D&D. Regeneration - 910gp from an NPC caster.
ManinDarkness 02-21-05, 12:47 PM	What makes him good if his first instinct is violence?I strongly disagree with what this implies. Violence is not innately evil, not in D&D anyway. If it were, the paladin would be an oxymoron. This is why I only allow EXPERIENCED players to be a Paladin.And only experienced and mature DMs should allow them. :rolleyes:
Tiruvel 02-21-05, 05:14 PM	Well, I didn't get the impression that the cleric " only questioned his own faith"... He insulted his deity! In my opinion that's a worse crime (he's a cleric, for Pelor's sake!) than punishing someone who has insulted your deity. I get that Pelor is a mild deity who probably should have stopped granting spells for the cleric for a short period instead of firing a sunbeam. And the Paladin, as I said, didn't act as he maybe should have, but a fallen paladin? Give me a break. A cleric of Pelor shouldn't go about insulting Pelor. Questioning his own faith? Sure, but not insult.. :mad:
Drachasor 02-21-05, 06:06 PM	Well, I didn't get the impression that the cleric " only questioned his own faith"... He insulted his deity! In my opinion that's a worse crime (he's a cleric, for Pelor's sake!) than punishing someone who has insulted your deity. I get that Pelor is a mild deity who probably should have stopped granting spells for the cleric for a short period instead of firing a sunbeam. And the Paladin, as I said, didn't act as he maybe should have, but a fallen paladin? Give me a break. A cleric of Pelor shouldn't go about insulting Pelor. Questioning his own faith? Sure, but not insult.. :mad: I largely agree, but the Paladin should have lost spell-use too. Sadly the DM was as crazy as the Paladin, and hence justified them. -Drachasor
Andrew_980 02-21-05, 06:13 PM	did he slap him and demand he stop, wich would have been reasonable? no he intentionally made an attack aimed at scaring for life. that sounds more like a follower of hextor than pelor and pelor should have seen it that way to and lost all favor for the vindictive bastard (ex) paladin
StrahdVonZarovich 02-21-05, 06:37 PM	I personaly think, he's far too arrogant and immature to play such a class, he've always been like this though. I guess I can't expect him to change his ways though.