Another Paladin Ethics Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Paladin Ethics Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ma'ElKoth
12-20-04, 11:55 PM This one came up recently in my campaign:
A new character has joined our game. Long story short he is a neutral evil character currently undergoing a quest to change his alignment to neutral good via the atonement spell. As per the spell his alignment will not change until completion of the quest. There is already a paladin in the group. Will joining forces with a repentant evil-doer cause him to fall from grace? It seems like the RAW would say that he would:

"[A] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters (PHB 44)"

Is this just a guideline? He'll know within ten seconds that the character is evil (at the moment), and may not believe that he is seeking redemption (their respective religions are both good, but not exactly close). Would knowingly associating with an evil character violate the Code of Conduct?
General Dorsey
12-21-04, 12:01 AM The fact that the paladin will not associate with an evil character is a solid rule. The alignment is the guideline. He may be evil, but the paladin should be able to tell that he is not radiating evil if he is actually trying to become good. Evil is as evil does. If he is acting the part of good, then he should not fall into the paladin's radar. If the paladin does see that he is evil, a sense motive check may be in order, or a zone of truth spell. In short, played well, I think that you can justify the paladin adventuring with this character. In fact, it may be interesting to see if the evil PC asks the paladin for guidance every now and then.
Dougan Axehammer
12-21-04, 12:08 AM This one came up recently in my campaign:
A new character has joined our game. Long story short he is a neutral evil character currently undergoing a quest to change his alignment to neutral good via the atonement spell. As per the spell his alignment will not change until completion of the quest. There is already a paladin in the group. Will joining forces with a repentant evil-doer cause him to fall from grace? It seems like the RAW would say that he would:

"[A] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters (PHB 44)"

Is this just a guideline? He'll know within ten seconds that the character is evil (at the moment), and may not believe that he is seeking redemption (their respective religions are both good, but not exactly close). Would knowingly associating with an evil character violate the Code of Conduct?

...unless the paladin believes that redemption is not only possible, but is actively being sought. (Paraphrased from 2nd Edition actually.) A paladin can and occasionally will associate with evil characters (begrudgingly of course) for the greater good; the relationship between Sturm and Raistlin are good example. A paladin will also accompany an evil character to "return him to the light side of the force." It only violates his code of conduct if he knowly lets evil deeds occur or go unpunished.
Porion
12-21-04, 12:14 AM i'd pull a "Convert the Heathen" approach to this, paladins arent just machiens to destoy evil guys, but get rid of the evil in the world however possible, mainly killing, but converting a bad to a good is a bit like making a paladin a blackguard in a deity's eyes.

of course you could actually have the good vs evil be switched in a way that good is ruthlesss and evil is actually the good guys since they take in those good had and reforms them, whereas good jsut destroys anything.
Ma'ElKoth
12-21-04, 12:38 AM of course you could actually have the good vs evil be switched in a way that good is ruthlesss and evil is actually the good guys since they take in those good had and reforms them, whereas good jsut destroys anything.
Which is not possible under the RAW. The book provides an absolute system for judging actions. Intentions don't seem to matter for squat. You become good when you perform good actions, and you become evil when you perform evil actions. A person who starts out good and begins doing evil will become evil himself if he does not balance out the scales with good actions. Similarly an evil character who begins doing good will become good himself if he doesn't sow a little vileness at the same time. The "Atonement" spell kind of short-circuts that. It allows (among other things) a character to instantly convert to the alignment of the cleric casting it on them. The cleric may set a quest for the character, whose alignment will change upon the completion of that quest. Of course, if the quest is long enough and epic enough, the character may already be good by the time it's done (which would then excuse a sound thrashing of said cleric, at least in my opinion).
ShadowDragon8685
12-21-04, 03:46 AM Agreed.

Good people occasionally have cause to smack the **** out of one another, so long as it's not permanant.
CzarGarrett
12-21-04, 08:25 AM Going with the idea that unless its an Always Evil creature (Loths, Ri, etc) or some sort of evil cleric, evil is not always manifest.

If the NE is trying to become NG, then I think pretty quickly one could switch from NE to TN just by stopping evil acts UNLESS the acts are so evil, vile, and perverse that the echoes of them will stick with the character for a long time.

Going on that idea, the NE character is now TN and there's no concer about evil. And the character could even talk with the Paladin, almost like a confession, and the Paladin could help his formerly NE-now TN character become NG.
Cravensson
12-21-04, 08:49 AM The thing a lot of people forget about alignments in D&D is that good and evil are absolutes in the game. There is no such defining line in the real world, of course, but in the game world there is. Of course, creatures in the game world can also change their alignment if they really try. But if part of their alignment is Evil, a paladin is always going to be able to sense it until they successfuly change their alignment, assuming they want to.

Of course, a paladin is also an intelligent being, and one tasked with overcoming evil, so if he sees that a person is struggling with their evil nature he will no doubt act to help them in some way. The evil person would have to convince the paladin that he truly wants to atone for his evil ways before the paladin would go questing with him. If given a chance to help someone find redemption, I don't see why the paladin would not do so if he honestly believed the person wanted to change.
alecthemad
12-21-04, 09:06 AM You are the DM, for story purposes I would not worry about RAW. This is not a situation that the paladin put himself into nor a situation that you placed him into for specifically testing his adherance to the code. So let it go. It is not like this evil players is going to stay evil and the whole quest idea appeals to the paladin schtick.

For the paladin's detect evil describe the evil aura as seemingly dimming over time or maybe the aura is a mix of good and evil (mostly evil) and impart upon the player that he has the (divinely inspired) sense he could tip the scale for good.

Maybe give him a vision of helping the atoning PC. Use climbing a mountain visuals where the paladin is the friend at the other end of the rope helping him.
Bluntpencil2001
12-21-04, 09:09 AM I can't believe that I actually have to say this. Ignore the 'rules as written'.

If you are reluctant to break a rule, don't worry! There is always rule 0 - What the DM says goes. So if the DM says the paladin can accompany the character, the paladin can.
MrkGrismer
12-21-04, 09:25 AM First, let us look at how the Paladin knows whether or not somebody is evil. 1) actions and 2) that pesky detect evil ability.

Number one is actually the most reliable, because evil is as evil does. But let us look at what is revealed with detect evil:

An evil creature (not undead, outsider or cleric of an evil diety) of less then 11th level has a faint aura. Same goes for undead of less then third level/hd, outsiders of less then second level/hd and clerics of an evil diety of less than 2nd level/hd.

So, the Paladin does his detect evil on this new person, and gets a faint evil aura. This gives the Paladin cause to be wary, and means that the Paladin cannot 'associate' with the character. Of course, what is associating? To join as a partner, ally, or friend.

Nobody considers another person a partner, ally or friend until they have spent a fair amount of time with the person, and a Paladin is not forbidden to be around evil (such would be unrealistic), only to associate with evil.

The Paladin should be wary and distrustful of this person, and would likely treat the person as a third wheel, or outsider until trust has been proven. By the time trust has been proven the character should have drifted away from evil enough (to neutral) to stop registering on the detect evil, and even then the Paladin would likely be wary.

Personally, I don't think a Paladin would even consider a neutral character to be a good, true, friend. Although a Paladin might associate with such, he knows that when the chips are down, and good must be done, the neutral character cannot be relied upon to do what must be done.

Of course, since the Paladin is himself good, and one would think striving to be the best good he can be, he isn't likely to be rude to somebody just because they are not as morally good as the Paladin himself. Such and attitude would not be good in and of itself.

I don't like to think of the Paladin's code as a set of rules that must be begrudgingly followed, but rather as a morality that those who follow the Paladin's path naturally abide by. So when the code says "will never knowingly associate with evil characters" it means that the Paladin could never trust such a character enough to form a "partnership, alliance, or friendship" with.

Let's look at the full thing:

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Note that both evil characters and someone who consistently offends her moral code are made almost equivalent in the same sentence. The difference being that the Paladin will not knowingly form an association with an evil character, and will terminate an association formed with a character who consistently offends her moral code.

Realistically, there has to be some leeway here for a Paladin to be able to function. Anybody that is not the Paladin is likely going to have some differences with the Paladin's moral code, so how far does somebody have to go to offend? At its simplest, the word offend means to simply violate the code, which means that in the literal interpretation a Paladin would not be able to associate with anyone who is not a Paladin of the same order as the one in question. Anybody else would consistently offend the Paladin's moral code. Since that is excessively narrow-minded, and a violation of the principles of respecting legitimate authority, acting with honor, and helping those in need we know that the literal interpretation cannot be the correct interpretation in these cases.

So, realistically, a Paladin cannot associate with somebody who consistently works at cross-purposes to the Paladin's moral code. If the Paladin arrives at the opinion that one of his current associates is stifiling the Paladin's ability to perform his duties and fight evil, then the Paladin will terminate that association (possibly in a very literal and permanent manner if the transgression was dire).

Note also that under the RAW, a Paladin only looses his Paladinhood (and requires atonement) "if she ever willingly commits an evil act." Not if the Paladin is caught talking to a Blackguard.
Loopy
12-21-04, 09:27 AM In fact, I think it might be a Paladin's duty to actively help someone repent and become an active member of society.
Cantankerous
12-21-04, 09:46 AM The Paladial Code is not a set of legalisms, it is a spiritual ideal. It must be obeyed and abided by at ALL TIMES by the Paladin, but it is not an unthinking legalism. It is a living breathing Code that judges every action the Paladin makes. If the Paladin kills, he kills to promote the greater good. If the Paladin does anything, he does it with the Code in mind.

That is the point though, the Code is in mind. If the person is "questing" to "Atone" for past mistakes any Paladin worth his weight in cheese whiz is going to be bending over backwards to see that the person manages to do just that.

Isshia
Zetakya
12-21-04, 10:24 AM a paladin?s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Either set the character up to request the aid & guidance of the Paladin (who better to ask to keep you on the straight and narrow than a Paladin?) or else send the paladin some "inspiration from god" telling him that this act (helping a redemption) is just as much part of the way of law and good as destroying evil. Use words like "purification" and "refining", draw analogies with craft skills that the paladin has (if any) - one of my favourites was used on a Paladin who crafted his own swords, likening the saving of a fallen one (a Paladin who lost the path, IMC) to the process of bladecraft - if necessary send the Paladin Omens and Signs, make it a spitirtual roleplaying experience for him too.
Dougan Axehammer
12-21-04, 11:57 PM MrkGrismer, that was beautifully written. In addition, someone who is struggling with evil and is actively trying to overcome its nature certainly falls under the category of "those in need." That being the case, so long as that individual continues to overcome an evil nature, the paladin could associate with him and try to guide his path to salvation. Should salvation prove to be unfruitful, the paladin must sever his ties to his "student". So long as the individual actively tries to overcome an evil nature, the paladin may associate himself with an evil character without violating his ethics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ma'ElKoth 12-20-04, 11:55 PM	This one came up recently in my campaign: A new character has joined our game. Long story short he is a neutral evil character currently undergoing a quest to change his alignment to neutral good via the atonement spell. As per the spell his alignment will not change until completion of the quest. There is already a paladin in the group. Will joining forces with a repentant evil-doer cause him to fall from grace? It seems like the RAW would say that he would: "[A] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters (PHB 44)" Is this just a guideline? He'll know within ten seconds that the character is evil (at the moment), and may not believe that he is seeking redemption (their respective religions are both good, but not exactly close). Would knowingly associating with an evil character violate the Code of Conduct?
General Dorsey 12-21-04, 12:01 AM	The fact that the paladin will not associate with an evil character is a solid rule. The alignment is the guideline. He may be evil, but the paladin should be able to tell that he is not radiating evil if he is actually trying to become good. Evil is as evil does. If he is acting the part of good, then he should not fall into the paladin's radar. If the paladin does see that he is evil, a sense motive check may be in order, or a zone of truth spell. In short, played well, I think that you can justify the paladin adventuring with this character. In fact, it may be interesting to see if the evil PC asks the paladin for guidance every now and then.
Dougan Axehammer 12-21-04, 12:08 AM	This one came up recently in my campaign: A new character has joined our game. Long story short he is a neutral evil character currently undergoing a quest to change his alignment to neutral good via the atonement spell. As per the spell his alignment will not change until completion of the quest. There is already a paladin in the group. Will joining forces with a repentant evil-doer cause him to fall from grace? It seems like the RAW would say that he would: "[A] paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters (PHB 44)" Is this just a guideline? He'll know within ten seconds that the character is evil (at the moment), and may not believe that he is seeking redemption (their respective religions are both good, but not exactly close). Would knowingly associating with an evil character violate the Code of Conduct? ...unless the paladin believes that redemption is not only possible, but is actively being sought. (Paraphrased from 2nd Edition actually.) A paladin can and occasionally will associate with evil characters (begrudgingly of course) for the greater good; the relationship between Sturm and Raistlin are good example. A paladin will also accompany an evil character to "return him to the light side of the force." It only violates his code of conduct if he knowly lets evil deeds occur or go unpunished.
Porion 12-21-04, 12:14 AM	i'd pull a "Convert the Heathen" approach to this, paladins arent just machiens to destoy evil guys, but get rid of the evil in the world however possible, mainly killing, but converting a bad to a good is a bit like making a paladin a blackguard in a deity's eyes. of course you could actually have the good vs evil be switched in a way that good is ruthlesss and evil is actually the good guys since they take in those good had and reforms them, whereas good jsut destroys anything.
Ma'ElKoth 12-21-04, 12:38 AM	of course you could actually have the good vs evil be switched in a way that good is ruthlesss and evil is actually the good guys since they take in those good had and reforms them, whereas good jsut destroys anything. Which is not possible under the RAW. The book provides an absolute system for judging actions. Intentions don't seem to matter for squat. You become good when you perform good actions, and you become evil when you perform evil actions. A person who starts out good and begins doing evil will become evil himself if he does not balance out the scales with good actions. Similarly an evil character who begins doing good will become good himself if he doesn't sow a little vileness at the same time. The "Atonement" spell kind of short-circuts that. It allows (among other things) a character to instantly convert to the alignment of the cleric casting it on them. The cleric may set a quest for the character, whose alignment will change upon the completion of that quest. Of course, if the quest is long enough and epic enough, the character may already be good by the time it's done (which would then excuse a sound thrashing of said cleric, at least in my opinion).
ShadowDragon8685 12-21-04, 03:46 AM	Agreed. Good people occasionally have cause to smack the **** out of one another, so long as it's not permanant.
CzarGarrett 12-21-04, 08:25 AM	Going with the idea that unless its an Always Evil creature (Loths, Ri, etc) or some sort of evil cleric, evil is not always manifest. If the NE is trying to become NG, then I think pretty quickly one could switch from NE to TN just by stopping evil acts UNLESS the acts are so evil, vile, and perverse that the echoes of them will stick with the character for a long time. Going on that idea, the NE character is now TN and there's no concer about evil. And the character could even talk with the Paladin, almost like a confession, and the Paladin could help his formerly NE-now TN character become NG.
Cravensson 12-21-04, 08:49 AM	The thing a lot of people forget about alignments in D&D is that good and evil are absolutes in the game. There is no such defining line in the real world, of course, but in the game world there is. Of course, creatures in the game world can also change their alignment if they really try. But if part of their alignment is Evil, a paladin is always going to be able to sense it until they successfuly change their alignment, assuming they want to. Of course, a paladin is also an intelligent being, and one tasked with overcoming evil, so if he sees that a person is struggling with their evil nature he will no doubt act to help them in some way. The evil person would have to convince the paladin that he truly wants to atone for his evil ways before the paladin would go questing with him. If given a chance to help someone find redemption, I don't see why the paladin would not do so if he honestly believed the person wanted to change.
alecthemad 12-21-04, 09:06 AM	You are the DM, for story purposes I would not worry about RAW. This is not a situation that the paladin put himself into nor a situation that you placed him into for specifically testing his adherance to the code. So let it go. It is not like this evil players is going to stay evil and the whole quest idea appeals to the paladin schtick. For the paladin's detect evil describe the evil aura as seemingly dimming over time or maybe the aura is a mix of good and evil (mostly evil) and impart upon the player that he has the (divinely inspired) sense he could tip the scale for good. Maybe give him a vision of helping the atoning PC. Use climbing a mountain visuals where the paladin is the friend at the other end of the rope helping him.
Bluntpencil2001 12-21-04, 09:09 AM	I can't believe that I actually have to say this. Ignore the 'rules as written'. If you are reluctant to break a rule, don't worry! There is always rule 0 - What the DM says goes. So if the DM says the paladin can accompany the character, the paladin can.
MrkGrismer 12-21-04, 09:25 AM	First, let us look at how the Paladin knows whether or not somebody is evil. 1) actions and 2) that pesky detect evil ability. Number one is actually the most reliable, because evil is as evil does. But let us look at what is revealed with detect evil: An evil creature (not undead, outsider or cleric of an evil diety) of less then 11th level has a faint aura. Same goes for undead of less then third level/hd, outsiders of less then second level/hd and clerics of an evil diety of less than 2nd level/hd. So, the Paladin does his detect evil on this new person, and gets a faint evil aura. This gives the Paladin cause to be wary, and means that the Paladin cannot 'associate' with the character. Of course, what is associating? To join as a partner, ally, or friend. Nobody considers another person a partner, ally or friend until they have spent a fair amount of time with the person, and a Paladin is not forbidden to be around evil (such would be unrealistic), only to associate with evil. The Paladin should be wary and distrustful of this person, and would likely treat the person as a third wheel, or outsider until trust has been proven. By the time trust has been proven the character should have drifted away from evil enough (to neutral) to stop registering on the detect evil, and even then the Paladin would likely be wary. Personally, I don't think a Paladin would even consider a neutral character to be a good, true, friend. Although a Paladin might associate with such, he knows that when the chips are down, and good must be done, the neutral character cannot be relied upon to do what must be done. Of course, since the Paladin is himself good, and one would think striving to be the best good he can be, he isn't likely to be rude to somebody just because they are not as morally good as the Paladin himself. Such and attitude would not be good in and of itself. I don't like to think of the Paladin's code as a set of rules that must be begrudgingly followed, but rather as a morality that those who follow the Paladin's path naturally abide by. So when the code says "will never knowingly associate with evil characters" it means that the Paladin could never trust such a character enough to form a "partnership, alliance, or friendship" with. Let's look at the full thing: Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good. Note that both evil characters and someone who consistently offends her moral code are made almost equivalent in the same sentence. The difference being that the Paladin will not knowingly form an association with an evil character, and will terminate an association formed with a character who consistently offends her moral code. Realistically, there has to be some leeway here for a Paladin to be able to function. Anybody that is not the Paladin is likely going to have some differences with the Paladin's moral code, so how far does somebody have to go to offend? At its simplest, the word offend means to simply violate the code, which means that in the literal interpretation a Paladin would not be able to associate with anyone who is not a Paladin of the same order as the one in question. Anybody else would consistently offend the Paladin's moral code. Since that is excessively narrow-minded, and a violation of the principles of respecting legitimate authority, acting with honor, and helping those in need we know that the literal interpretation cannot be the correct interpretation in these cases. So, realistically, a Paladin cannot associate with somebody who consistently works at cross-purposes to the Paladin's moral code. If the Paladin arrives at the opinion that one of his current associates is stifiling the Paladin's ability to perform his duties and fight evil, then the Paladin will terminate that association (possibly in a very literal and permanent manner if the transgression was dire). Note also that under the RAW, a Paladin only looses his Paladinhood (and requires atonement) "if she ever willingly commits an evil act." Not if the Paladin is caught talking to a Blackguard.
Loopy 12-21-04, 09:27 AM	In fact, I think it might be a Paladin's duty to actively help someone repent and become an active member of society.
Cantankerous 12-21-04, 09:46 AM	The Paladial Code is not a set of legalisms, it is a spiritual ideal. It must be obeyed and abided by at ALL TIMES by the Paladin, but it is not an unthinking legalism. It is a living breathing Code that judges every action the Paladin makes. If the Paladin kills, he kills to promote the greater good. If the Paladin does anything, he does it with the Code in mind. That is the point though, the Code is in mind. If the person is "questing" to "Atone" for past mistakes any Paladin worth his weight in cheese whiz is going to be bending over backwards to see that the person manages to do just that. Isshia
Zetakya 12-21-04, 10:24 AM	a paladin?s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Either set the character up to request the aid & guidance of the Paladin (who better to ask to keep you on the straight and narrow than a Paladin?) or else send the paladin some "inspiration from god" telling him that this act (helping a redemption) is just as much part of the way of law and good as destroying evil. Use words like "purification" and "refining", draw analogies with craft skills that the paladin has (if any) - one of my favourites was used on a Paladin who crafted his own swords, likening the saving of a fallen one (a Paladin who lost the path, IMC) to the process of bladecraft - if necessary send the Paladin Omens and Signs, make it a spitirtual roleplaying experience for him too.
Dougan Axehammer 12-21-04, 11:57 PM	MrkGrismer, that was beautifully written. In addition, someone who is struggling with evil and is actively trying to overcome its nature certainly falls under the category of "those in need." That being the case, so long as that individual continues to overcome an evil nature, the paladin could associate with him and try to guide his path to salvation. Should salvation prove to be unfruitful, the paladin must sever his ties to his "student". So long as the individual actively tries to overcome an evil nature, the paladin may associate himself with an evil character without violating his ethics.