Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dman11235 08-31-07, 01:26 AM	I never thought I'd have to start a thread about this, but I have a problem with two of my players. I am currently running a gestalt campaign in a homebrew setting. I have placed an alignment restriction to any non-evil, but evil takes a whole new meaning in my campaign. You have to try to get it, as well as good. Anyway, the party make-up is as follows, all level 3 now: C/Gcatburglar (thank you Bhu!)/cleric of Lastai C/Nshifter druid/fighter who worships Talos (who is NOT CE, but rather CN, but not something to talk about now) L/Nswashbuckler/egoist/monk/etc for insane AC *C/Escout/ranger **C/Ebard/swashbuckler sorcerer/fighter * is a long time friend, but he is evil. In real life. And he is currently CN, but he keeps roleplaying evil, even what I would consider justifiably evil. He has plans on setting traps through towns and just looking at people and apologizing for accidentally leaving traps around. Also looking for ways to gravely exceed wealth levels. By gravely, I mean game altering, +20 weapon at level 5 gravely. ** is in the same boat. Not a long time friend, but still a friend. He has plans on using Magic Aura to sell masterwork weapons as magical, thus gaining said game-altering wealth level. I have tried talking, but I really don't want to kick anyone out of the game. They still wish to go through with their plans of derailment. I don't even know if they get that the things they plan could very easily cause tremendous amounts of trouble for every one involved. Are there any psychologists out there who can help me with this dilemma? (I'll settle for some veteran DMs!) I do have some ways to discourage this in game, like the shop keeps testing the swords, or paladin intervention, but I feel as if these things will not stop them. * has a known history of this stuff. In the last campaign I was in, he had his character turn evil (well, start) and turn on us, attempting to kill us in our sleep. ** also has a history of evil characters. Not too much info though, as this is my first campaign with him.
Kazuhiro 08-31-07, 01:44 AM	I had the exact same problem, and my solution came utterly by chance. I argued ahead of time with my friend, often and without restraint. Our arguments tended to get rather ugly, actually. Popular argument topics were his plans for abusing Exposive Runes, abusing Explosive Runes in order to turn his party members into suicide bombers, his belief that his Evil party member wasn't Evil unless she was an axemurderer, his assertion that he would turn on any party member who ****** him off (possibly by abusing Explosive Runes) and the fact that he had a wacky build that needed exceptions to the house rules. The part that came "utterly by chance?" He dropped from the campaign.
Dragonsblood 08-31-07, 02:43 AM	Why is said "evil in real life" guy your friend? If he has a history of problems and you've already asked him to stop unsuccessfully, you shouldn't invite him to your games. If you want to invite him anyway, you deserve what you get.
Charlym_Zuardan 08-31-07, 04:14 AM	If he has a history of problems and you've already asked him to stop unsuccessfully, you shouldn't invite him to your games. If you want to invite him anyway, you deserve what you get. quoted for absolute truth
Prince_of_Parkness 08-31-07, 08:55 AM	In a world were magic is so commom, its hardly unreasonable for a shopkeaper to have dectect spells to thrawt being ripped off by magical spells. "But this place doesnt have the money to has such protections" he may say, "Well thenthey dont have enough money to buy your supposed magical item either" If this trap thing is bothering you, why the hell are you allowing him to get away with it? Sorry i left the trap their by accident? not gd enough, have the city authorities throw him in jail for 3 days, take away all his traps and fine him 1000gp, and 3000 as compenastion to the victim
Prince_of_Parkness 08-31-07, 08:55 AM	Why is said "evil in real life" guy your friend? If he has a history of problems and you've already asked him to stop unsuccessfully, you shouldn't invite him to your games. If you want to invite him anyway, you deserve what you get. True, but i understand his possition if this is a friend and just saying that isnt going to help him
Charlym_Zuardan 08-31-07, 09:11 AM	by the same logic though you must admit that if this were a real friend.. talking to him would have worked
Prince_of_Parkness 08-31-07, 09:22 AM	by the same logic though you must admit that if this were a real friend.. talking to him would have worked Arguably true but this is hardly the place to talk about it. When you make a mistake and ask for help the last thing you want is someone pointing out that its your fault
Orion__ 08-31-07, 09:25 AM	quoted for absolute truth I hate to write the equivalent "me 2!!!", but in this case I'll make an exception :P Talk to him gently but firmly. Good luck!
green_girl 08-31-07, 12:02 PM	Had the same problem once. My friend was not evil in real life though. I talked to them, and they still played CN characters like CE characters. I said to them that their actions are destroying the others' playing experience (and mine too), and I ruled that when your character turns evil, he/she/it becomes an NPC, possibly the future villain.
Gargs454 08-31-07, 12:29 PM	As others have said: If a shopkeeper is wealthy enough to purchase a magical item, he's got the means to have it properly examined and/or Identified. (Most would gladly spend the 100 gp on the Pearl for ID to ensure that they didn't spend 10,000 gold on a regular weapon. Additionally, make the player pay for the Pearl with the caveat that if the item checks out, the shopkeeper will add 100 gp to the price in compensation, therefore the shopkeeper really doesn't lose anything, but your friend will. As for the traps, again as already pointed out, the authorities would be none too amused by this type of behavior. If his traps are seriously injuring and/or killing people, then its an even more serious crime. Heck, if he kills somebody with it, then it could be murder with a death sentence. If he wants to fight, then fine, the authorities will get Royal Assistance to hunt down this "Most Wanted" fugitive and a band of Elite Troops/Adventurers/Whatever swoops in on him. Note, this does not have to be a fair fight. Just have the enforcers turn to the rest of the party and say "This doesn't concern you, if you stand aside you'll be free to go. If you stand with him, then by law you too are guilty of his crimes." Most likely, the rest of the party will step aside. Its harsh, but eventually your friend will get the point that if he wants to be an evil sob then he needs to be careful about how he does it. Additionally, if he's ripping off merchants in one town, those merchants are likely to travel to other towns on business. Soon your "friend" will find that his reputation precedes him and that the shopkeepers simply refuse to deal with him. Maybe they even begin to associate the rest of the party with him, which will also turn the rest of the group against him. As I said, this is harsh, but he's also ruining the game. You also have enough other players that you don't need these guys if this is all that they want to do, particularly since you are running a Gestalt game. If he really likes to play, then he'll get back into line. If not, then he really doesn't like the game per se, but rather just prefers to ruin the game for everyone else -- which is exactly what they are trying to do, even if they don't admit it. Evil campaigns are fine so long as everyone is on board with it. If you don't have everyone on board though, then a partially evil campaign will rarely work.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-31-07, 05:58 PM	Have you tried any of the suggestions? If so, how did they go? If not, why? Don't think they work?
dman11235 08-31-07, 11:31 PM	Haven't had a session yet. My next one is Tuesday. It will be the first one with the sorcerer/fighter and bard/swashbuckler. See, I have these ideas on what to do, some of them were listed here, to try in game. The reputation was not one of mine. Some of the ideas, however, may not deter them from acting this way. That's what I need the help on. They play evil, and I'm trying to get them to not for the purposes of a good aligned party. I mean, sometimes you need to play the opposite of what you are, I always do exalted, but my next character is true N. Thanks for all the help guys. I may need more after tuesday. I guess what I should have said, * was my friend all through high school, and is a great guy, except for the things his mind thinks up. I don't think he's "kill the orphans!" evil, but C/N with some evil tendancies in there in real life.
dman11235 09-06-07, 01:56 AM	So yeah, nothing that bad happened, aside from the suggesting to kill of the person they're gaurding. I'm pretty sure that * is strongly considering waiting until he gets paid and then just shooting the guy, but nothing has really had a chance to happen yet.
Genevieve_Evernight 09-06-07, 02:50 AM	I don't know how you run your campaigns, but I think a little "divine" intervention might be in order. Warn them that if they do something against their alignment the "Gods" will punish them. You don't even have to be more specific than that at the start. One idea for **: My friend Casey Dm'd a campaign where he had the party find a sword in a dungeon. The sword didn't detect as evil and was slightly magical, however, the party soon found out that the sword was in fact an extremely powerful magical weapon that was also slightly sentient. The sword was basically a shiny conceal alignment spell to trap a particular character. It was a sword of an evil deity and it took control of the PC effectively dooming the party for eternity. You could also have ** find swords that appear normal but are in fact cursed and forever stick to his hand or do something else debilitating. For *, you could have his trap catch a VERY powerful NPC who then proceeds to enact revenge however he/she sees fit. For both of them, if you specify your campaign as any non-evil, then you can declare punishment rules for breaking this requirement. If your players insist on playing neutral as evil, then declare them to be evil characters and give them penalties. Tell them that any PC declared evil by the DM automatically loses 2 points in their most important ability score...or something like that. You're the DM so just declare that, when they argue an act is not evil, if even ONE of the other PCs agrees with you then they lose the argument.
Infernostrider 09-06-07, 09:04 AM	on the second guy, with the magical aura spell, as soon as the spell wears off of his sold goods the entire town guard will rain upon him, killing him (and possibly his cohorts). Otherwise, a high level wizard interested in his goods casts a read magic spell to make sure he isn't tricked (i mean, he isn't dumb, his int is likely to be 20+) and is outraged by the fact that somebody actually tried to trick him, blasting the dude to smithereens (or banishing his soul to a prison on another plane, always fun ^^ and on the plane the soul can be tortured into becoming a paladin :P)
Empirate 09-06-07, 10:02 AM	I cannot for the life of me believe for one second that this kind of problem can be properly and efficiently dealt with in-game. What I think whenever this kind of question pops up in this thread is the following: 1. Why are so many people afraid to tell an a!sshole that he/she is one? Go ahead and watch the reaction. Sometime it helps, and if it doesn't, at least everybody knows where they are standing. 2. If that isn't the case/helpful/doable, remember that this is a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone at the table. If it isn't, and the reason for that is one specific player's behaviour, that behaviour has to change or the player has to walk. 3. Seriously, if he's a friend he'll understand your predicament. He'll understand that he's detracting from your fun in a massive way. He'll try to change his style of play in a way that doesn't detract from his fun too much, but adds to yours. 4. Reach a compromise that way. If he's a friend, that WILL be possible. If you can't reach a compromise, and you're still friends, you'll need to either find a way to live with it, or stop playing together, as it endangers your friendship. If you're not friends anymore, refer to 1. I never did put up with gaming groups or individual players that bothered the hell out of me like this guy (*) or guys (plus **) is/are doing. It's a game. It's not as if you'll lose a limb if you stop playing with killjoys. Kick them out, or walk away yourself, it doesn't matter. If you can't solve it out of game, in a mature, serious, friendly discussion, you WON'T solve it.