Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xherau 05-26-05, 02:57 PM	(Note: this post has been edited) Hi All Xherau here, again, but this time to exercise my laziness by asking to borrow your creative brilliance. Here is the problem: A level 2 rogue levels up and takes his third level as monk. This means he has two instances of evasion as a class feature. Does the character suck it up and get over the fact that he has a redundant instance of evasion...or, do the creative DMs on this message board come up with an interesting way to handle such redundant instances? You decide. As always, interested to hear your thoughts. In response to what has been said below so far: 1. Giving improved evasion is not an option. 2. Giving another feat in place of the evasion class feature is an interesting idea. What does everyone think of giving a feat that has no prerequisite in place of the evasion ability? 3. I am not saying that evasion should stack. Ken Check out my website for D&D downloads and misc bits of fun: http://www.geocities.com/keninmansfield/DnD.html
Sargon 05-26-05, 03:04 PM	Who trained this Pc to be a monk? I'm not so sure you can just decided to start being a monk so first and formost.. You can't just become a monk for no reason (and monks are Lawful very unlike rouges anyway) But if this situation ever does happen (which occasonially it does in some of the games i play in) you get improved evasion or if that a bit over powered some other feat of the type.. such as dodge or mobility.
seaweed_smokeweed 05-26-05, 03:08 PM	The only class abilities that stack that I am aware of are the Uncanny Dodge sets. As far as stacking evasion...I say that it would give the player too much, too quickly. I know I wouldn't give it to them, I'd just point out the other crap they got from leveling up. But then again, it all depends on whether you're trying to kill the player off. I do it out of spite to my rules lawyer all the time.
Merestil Haye 05-26-05, 03:27 PM	Levels in classes which grant a familiar stack as well. Evasion, however, does not. So all the PC has done is stacked up an interesting multiclass (particularly if you allow Complete Adventurer feats) but will not get Evasion or Improved Evasion faster than they otherwise would.
Asciiman 05-26-05, 03:34 PM	Who trained this Pc to be a monk? I'm not so sure you can just decided to start being a monk so first and formost.. You can't just become a monk for no reason (and monks are Lawful very unlike rouges anyway) This is the nature of 3rd edition. No where does it say you require training, it is just assumed that the PC chose to go Monk and had been studying unarmed martial combat the entire time during the previous level. And for that matter, why can't rogues, NOT ROUGES, be lawful? Nothing says that they break a lot of laws. Sounds to me like you are living in the past, as in 2nd and 1st edition days.
Sargon 05-26-05, 03:43 PM	Sounds to me like you are living in the past, as in 2nd and 1st edition days. This is when i invoke my ability as the DM and say... Hmm well you didn't role play the fact that you where teaching yourself to become a monk.. you don't know anything about 'The Way' and therefore i'm making the call that you Do not gain a level of monk.. HOWEVER if you wish to become a monk you are perfectly withen your rights to search out a monastary and request admintence Then i might even send them on a quest from the monastary the only catch is the player has to use monk type weapons only.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 05-26-05, 03:48 PM	Well, actually...lawful doesn't always mean "the law of the land", otherwise it would be nearly impossible to have a Lawful Evil PC. That being said, it could be that the PC lives by a certain moral code (no matter how outragous it seems) and refuses to budge on it. Example: 1. Only lie, cheat, steal in order to promote the goals of your organization 2. Only kill kobolds at night. 3. Never pose a threat to a woman. This would be an example albeit a strange one of a "moral code" for a LN character. So, only if the PC acts against one of his "tenents" will he suffer any problems. That's the way I've always played it, otherwise as previously stated, LE wouldn't make any sense. How could you be evil and still obey the local laws? (in a good society...I am aware LE nations make LE laws which are not the norm) I am a DM and reformed rules-lawyer, and that's how I see it. (In my opinion)
Asciiman 05-26-05, 03:51 PM	This is when i invoke my ability as the DM and say... Hmm well you didn't role play the fact that you where teaching yourself to become a monk.. you don't know anything about 'The Way' and therefore i'm making the call that you Do not gain a level of monk. You are well within your rights to do this as a DM, but understand that you are not using RAW. 3rd edition is setup to emulate a classless system while at the sametime using classes, that is why you can have a PC with over 10 classes, so that you can have them with every ability you might be able to imagine. Not only that, but don't you think that the penalties for multiclassing are severe enough? 20% XP penalty can be pretty harsh and it only goes up if you add another at the wrong time too. Besides, is it really so hard to believe that a rogue just wanted to learn how to fight with his bare hands better? Doesn't sound to me like one has to go join a monestary for that sort of thing. Hell, he just join a gym to do that.
High Octane 05-26-05, 03:53 PM	There is a difference between learning to box and dedicating your life to personal perfection. Thats the difference between the monk CLASS and the FEAT Unarmed Strike.
Sargon 05-26-05, 04:01 PM	Besides, is it really so hard to believe that a rogue just wanted to learn how to fight with his bare hands better? Doesn't sound to me like one has to go join a monestary for that sort of thing. Hell, he just join a gym to do that. Prehaps we just have diffrent Ideas on what a Monk is... In my mind A monk is more than someone who fights with his bare hands. A monk is a person who has mastered his own will and his own body threw the art of meditation and personal deveolpment. This has also allowed the Monk the ability to fight Unarmed, Her fist becoming weapons. Other wise you could just take the feat Umarmed Strike. Is kinda like.. I as a American can just decside to Move to the east and become a tibiten Monk.. they just wouldn't allow it. Its not learning Kung-Fu its a way of life.
Asciiman 05-26-05, 04:01 PM	There is a difference between learning to box and dedicating your life to personal perfection. Thats the difference between the monk CLASS and the FEAT Unarmed Strike. Dang! How in the hell did I forget that a 1st level monk is the personification of physical perfection. Seriously though, a 1st level monk, is only a wee bit better then a 1st level warrior. 1 level of monk does not mean that the rogue is committed to changing his entire life to that kind of fighting.
Asciiman 05-26-05, 04:08 PM	Is kinda like.. I as a American can just decside to Move to the east and become a tibiten Monk.. they just wouldn't allow it. Its not learning Kung-Fu its a way of life. Here is where the problem is, a 1st level monk is in no way adapting a way of life. He's only first level. At higher levels you could argue this but at first level is not even as well trained as that barbarian who screams a lot and throws crap at others. Not only that but where is it written that a monk has to be modeled after a Tibetan style of life and living. A monk could just be someone who is committed to wrestling in the grecco-roman style after all. In short, a monk, like all classes, is what you make of it and what you imagine it to be. No where does it say you have to live the lifestyle of a monk to be a monk. Nor does it say you need to steal to be a rogue. Perhaps he came from a monestary, but instead of focusing on striking with his bare fists, the character learned how to strike for the weakest part of the body(IE Sneak Attack), latter on he became more focused.
Asciiman 05-26-05, 04:08 PM	Sorry, double post.
Sargon 05-26-05, 04:12 PM	Perhaps he came from a monestary, but instead of focusing on striking with his bare fists, the character learned how to strike for the weakest part of the body(IE Sneak Attack), latter on he became more focused. Good argument... Take a level of Monk ;)
Santrilla 05-26-05, 04:15 PM	Back to the OP, I wouldn't give them improved evasion. They can already evade; initial monk training won't improve that.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 04:18 PM	Isn't this all kinda moot because a 1st level Rogue doesn't even have Evasion...or were we talking down the line? Because if we were, the second he leveled back into Rogue (2nd level Rogue - 3rd level PC) he could no longer advance his monk levels. Unless, of course the Ascetic Rogue (from CV) Feat is taken.
Asciiman 05-26-05, 04:56 PM	Touche Board Rider.... Touche!
Xherau 05-26-05, 06:20 PM	Sorry everyone, make that a second level rogue that takes a level in monk for 3rd. It isn't material to the question that the character would not be able to advance levels in monk if he switched back to rogue. This is just an example of an instance where a character would get two instances of a class feature and lose out on a class feature because the rules presently say that the second instance of evasion is redundant. What we want to know is if there is a simple way to make it so that class feature redundancies don't happen. BTW, people like Sargon need not post. I don't need to hear those sorts of interpretations of a class. In my games, if the rules say you can do it, you can, unless it unbalances the game. Furthermore, your philosophical views on 'The Way' are completely uninteresting to me. I am here to solve a mechanical issue in the 3.0 rules. If you want to make arguments about rules one way or the other, you need to cite from the PHB or other 3.0 books, not personal ideas that have little or no basis in the D&D rules set. Ken PS-I will be modifying my original posting. Check out my website for D&D downloads and misc bits of fun: http://www.geocities.com/keninmansfield/DnD.html
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 06:39 PM	Okay here is what I would do. I would tell the guy to suck it up. It sucks but, by the rules, these Extraordinary abilities just don't stack. Evasion is a great ability, Improved Evasion is even better and must/should be earned. Getting it by 3rd level is a bit unbalancing and shouldn't IMO, and isn't by the rules, allowed. Here is an Option. Instead of Evasion give the PC a Feat. A good idea would be Lightning Reflexes (+2 to Reflex Saves) or Dodge (+1 Dodge bonus to AC). Those are good options without being overpowered. Good luck.
Sargon 05-26-05, 07:14 PM	Until my secert regimie of Communist take over the goverment i'll reserve the right to post any philosphy i choose... SO i think i'll begin with Why The Way is a part of a Monks life that just doesn't adhere to the life style of a ROGUE. Monks rely on thier Wisdom and personal prefection of mind and Body for thier strength. They are So intuned with the ability of Ki that thier Fist become weapons.. It not that they fight better with out weapons, They channel thier Ki into thier fist and the Fist become weapons.. Thats why Ki strike is a Special ability a Monk gets a 4th level. As the Monk in question learns more and More About ' THE WAY ' his Ki grows stronger and stronger. Eventually Threw the Focus of his Ki he can treat his Fist as Lawful weapons and after that even Adamantine. Other than Just using His Ki to enhance his fist. A monk also gets a host of special abilities that rely on his wisdom and his knowledge of THE WAY. (and by his understanding of The Way i mean increasing in levels) First a Monks Meditation and training pay of when he gets the ability to Still His mind. By focusing his mind a Monk gains resistance to enchantment. Next the monks ability to focus on his inner self he has the ability to shake of the effect of all but the most vile (supernatural) disease. More training in the way would allow a monk to gain even more control over his mental and physical being. By taking control of his metabolism a Monk who has sufficent knowledge of The Way learns to shake off the effects of posion. The monk has effectively become the Master of his own body threw knowledge of the way, strict disipline, meditation, and taking out Baddies. There is always room for improvment; however, continuing on his path a monk will learn the secerts of the soul. His knowledge of The Way gives him resitance to THE WEAVE of magic used by spell casters. Combat DOES play a role in the life of an adventuring monk as he is always seeking to push himself to the limits in order to gain new understanding. A monk who has has obtained suffient knowledge of THE WAY has become so attuned to the vibrations of the world that he gains the ability to disrupt the vibrations of others. Although this is more a line of defense than a means of aggression. Even more abilities become availble to those who didicate thier ENTIRE life the THE WAY. A Monks Body will no longer age due to his control his own body. A Monk so attuned with THE WAY! gains the ability to speak with any living creature. Only the most devotee Will ever obtain perfection as the nature of man ( or Orc or whatever) kind is so imperfect. Those who do reach this level of prefection are no longer Human but have accended to a realm where normal beings only dream about. Rogues on the other hand live a life based on a strike frist strike last principle. relying on thier ability to be unseen until it is to late. They lack the inward prefetion a Monk didicates his life too . Well .. I hope you enjoyed my little talk about THE WAY of the Monk... Hopefully one day you will understand, but i don't think you will... and thats okay.. some people are like that. God created us all for a reason and i'm sure you'll find your place in the world.. it may be picking up garbage and it may be washing windows.. only God knows. Until next time take care of yourself my friend.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 07:35 PM	I like the little tale of the Monk. However, what about the Ninja? They have Ki. I think that D&D made that multiclass distinction by not allowing a monk to continue to progress after taking another level in another class. However the CV has a feat to break that, the afformentioned Ascetic Rogue. I must also say that many multiclass possibilities just don't make sense. Like the Fighter who trained in all the weapons and armor then grabs a spellbook and can cast spells. Or even opposite, the Mage who can suddenly weild weapons because he became a Fighter. Thats the wacky D&D for ya.
Xherau 05-26-05, 08:09 PM	Haha...I see you posted a small book's worth of what is, doubtless, poo. I wouldn't know because I didn't bother reading it. Just do us all a favor and don't waste time posting more things I won't bother reading. Ken
Asciiman 05-27-05, 04:26 AM	Haha...I see you posted a small book's worth of what is, doubtless, poo. I wouldn't know because I didn't bother reading it. Just do us all a favor and don't waste time posting more things I won't bother reading. Ken Oh shut the hell up! He had his own opinion and he listened to anothers argument and admitted to seeing it being done another way. Then you come in and attack him. Just do us all a favour and shut up.
WizO_TheCheat 05-27-05, 01:29 PM	Everybody get back on the topic at hand and stop attacking each other or I'm closing the thread.
weasel fierce 05-27-05, 01:35 PM	Sounds to me like you are living in the past, as in 2nd and 1st edition days. A thief in either edition of AD&D can be lawfull if the player so desires. Just not Lawfull Good. So the above is in error. As for the original topic, I'd imagine that things only stack, if its specifically stated that it does, unless the DM finds it obvious that it should, or wishes to throw the player a bone.