Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mod5000 01-06-05, 07:01 PM	Hi, all! I have a small dilemma--I'm beginning a new campaign, with chars starting at lvl 5. One player asked me if he could make an anthropomorphic cheetah (from Savage Species) monk, and since it's publish WotC material, I as usual said "Yes." Not only that, but he's using Vow of Poverty (from Book of Exalted Deeds). We're using 32 point buy system and his beginning stats were: Strength: 8 Dexterity: 16 Constitution: 16 Intelligence: 10 Wisdom: 16 Charisma: 8 After racial bonuses applied: Strength: 14 Dexterity: 24 Constitution: 20 Intelligence: 10 Wisdom: 20 Charisma: 8 He's taken one level of Monk, and his AC is 28 (10+7 (dex)+5 (exalted from VoP)+5 (Wisdom)+1 (Monk AC Bonus), and his saves are: Fort: 7 Ref: 12 Will: 10 Hit points: 30 With the claws he has a +9 to hit because of weapon finesse Now my question: for an ECL 5 character, this seems awfully broken to me, but it is all by the books. Sure, he has nearly no feats, only 2 of his skills are high (hide and move silently), and he only has 3 HD, but he can save most anything I'm going to throw at them at this level, and fireballs won't hurt him since he'll just use Evasion, and this seems...slightly wrong to me. Should I let him keep it the way he is? Add more to the level adjustment of the anthro cheetah? Disallow the race or VoP? (Though I don't want to do that, I like keeping stuff from the books.) Suggestions?
Kesht 01-06-05, 07:11 PM	2 things stand out to me. 1) The stats are nutty. That's pretty crazy stat gains. Don't know what to say about that, except that it seems pretty obvious that he's going to outshine on the stats. 2) The AC. It's the VoP that's boosting it beyond what is normal. Otherwise I'd say the AC wouldn't be so high. Most everything else isn't too crazy. There's a good chance that an AC that high and stats will make him very tough. But not invulnerable. In the long run, I'd give him a bigger LA. Not to be mean or anything, but he just was too clever for the none-too-flexible LA system. I wouldn't dissallow at this point. Even though the Complete books have some really beefy stuff in it, there's always a way to challenge the player. I'd more worry about the other characters feeling like sidekicks/henchmen/lackeys. Hope this helps! :cool:
mod5000 01-06-05, 07:14 PM	In the long run, I'd give him a bigger LA. Not to be mean or anything, but he just was too clever for the none-too-flexible LA system. The ECL right now is 4, +2 lvl adjustment, and 2 HD. What should I make it? Any other suggestions?
Jack Greylock 01-06-05, 07:32 PM	Why do so many DM's have trouble saying NO. If you fell this character is too much, personally I do, just say NO. Even in my high end campaign (evil 10th level characters) I disallowed more than a single level adjustment as they are too much of a pain too deal with. I swear every other question on these boards is a "how do I deal with a player who wants to be a ___" . The answer is that it is your world and your right to say NO. And if the person won't play unless you let them be this ridiculous character than trust me they would have been a pain through out anyway and you don't really want them to play. Once again in the words of Skeletor "Just say NO!"
Kesht 01-06-05, 07:33 PM	Don't have the time to check the SRD and don't have access to my books. I'd put the ECL somewhere around 6 or 7 Just let him know your reasons for wanting to change that.
mod5000 01-06-05, 07:35 PM	Should I disallow the race/make the ECL higher, VoP, or both?
astute1 01-06-05, 08:10 PM	The race seems OK to me - perhaps a bit stat-heavy, not too bad. I'd disallow VoP, it's certainly broken, and it's where the crazy AC is coming from.
Jack Greylock 01-06-05, 08:10 PM	Disallow, Disallow!!
Count Arioch the 28th 01-06-05, 09:05 PM	[QUOTE=Kesht] I'd say, for a level 5 character (Which is what he'd be with one level of monk), he's gonna need those uber stats. Because he's got a bit of a tough time ahead of him.
mod5000 01-06-05, 09:10 PM	You'd be surprisingly accurate, the printed ECL is +6. Just wondering, it says +4 in the book, where did you get +6? I searched for errata and haven't found any.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-06-05, 09:15 PM	I was reading your previous post wrong, I saw 4 hd and +2 LA for some reason. I'm editing my previous post for content.
delroland 01-06-05, 11:08 PM	I see one GLARING weakness to this character: negative levels. One encounter with a wight or an enervation trap could very well mean death. And cheetahs have 3 HD in 3.5, so there goes his monk level. Also, tell the copycat that if he is going to do it right, he should be a werecheetah. Which coincidentally is pretty much the same, but has alternate forms and DR 10/silver for only +1 ECL. Going off of that, I would say that the character is legit; just horribly munchkinny. And note all that this character was made perfectly legally with 32-point point buy. However, one balancing factor would be to force him to take the cheetah feats, namely Alertness and Weapon Finesse. That puts off the VoP problems until 11th level, when Mr. Cheetah Man is a Monk6 and everyone else is throwing around 6th level spells. "Well, I WOULD cast heal on you, but you just don't have enough hitpoints to make it worth it..."
deadDMwalking 01-06-05, 11:46 PM	Your gut is right. An anthromorphich cheetah has a total attribute adjustment of +22. Compare that to the drow, another +2 ECL race. Heck, compare it to any of the other +2 ECL races presented in the Savage Species Handbook. I didn't find an errata, but I didn't look too hard. Let's look on page 10+ of the Savage Species Book. On page 11 we see about "unbalanced ability scores. We know right off that there is a +1 ability adjustment. It goes on to tell us that there is at least another +1. Because it has a natural armor bonus (+1) it gets AT LEAST another +1 LA. What is the true LA of the cheetah race? Probably +4-+6 for a total starting level of 5-7.
mod5000 01-06-05, 11:51 PM	Mmmm...I think you have your terms wrong. LA is the + to level without racial hit dice. ECL is LA + HD. So those anthros have 4 ECL, while drows have 2. And if I make the ECL higher, should I put up the LA or HD? Or do something else altogethor?
danielinthewolvesden 01-07-05, 12:02 AM	You have to be careful combining 3.0 and 3.5 material. VoP is OK (well, with a couple of exceptions) and this race is powerful but with signifcant weaknesses also. One or the other- not both. The combo is broken. I suggest allowing the cheetah, meself.
deadDMwalking 01-07-05, 12:12 AM	Mmmm...I think you have your terms wrong. LA is the + to level without racial hit dice. ECL is LA + HD. So those anthros have 4 ECL, while drows have 2. And if I make the ECL higher, should I put up the LA or HD? Or do something else altogethor? My mistake was in editing my total starting level to 5-7, instead of leaving it at 6-8. Drow have an LA of +2, but they replace their first HD with a class level. A drow must have an ECL of 3 or more, since they must have a HD, and a +2 LA. The antrhromorph cheetahs have the same LA (according to the book), but they have 2 racial HD (thus none are replaced by class levels). You could begin a character as a cheetah with 2 HD, +2 LA and no class levels for a total ECL of 4. However, as I broke down above, the LA is CLEARLY misprinted. The minimum LA for the unbalanced stats is +2. There is a minimum of +1 LA for the Natural Armor (according to Savage Species). And of course, the Cheetah (from 3.0) had 2 HD. Thus the minimum ECL is 5 (+3 LA +2 HD) with no class levels. I think a +4 LA is the minimum I would allow, considering how the stats are so skewed. I think I would go ahead and allow it as a 3HD creature (using the 3.5 MM) and a +4 LA, for a total ECL of 7 without class levels.
spasheridan 01-07-05, 02:09 AM	An anthro cheetah... You let him play an antrho cheetah. Please, tell me, what does asking to play an antrho cheetah scream to you other than "crazy munchkin race"? One player asked me if he could make an anthropomorphic cheetah (from Savage Species) monk, and since it's publish WotC material, I as usual said "Yes." Really, this is your problem. Your default answer should either be "NO" or "After I look it over, maybe, but probably not". All crunchy supplements are going to have their uber choices, and their broken choices. It is your responsibility to figure out the power level for your game and steer the players in that direction. If you see choices that are outside of that expectation disallow them from the game. There are a million examples of broken rules / combos in the more low-key books, just check the boards.
danielinthewolvesden 01-07-05, 02:53 AM	Antho Cheetah really isn't that powerful. Remember- they lose two levels. Then, they are also stuck with their first two levels (and this really hurts in skill points) as "monstrous humanoids". They get huge ability bonueses, yes, but other than +1 NA and darkvision, naught else. Other races get cool stuff and powers. He'll be two HD less (which REALLY hurts when higher level spells like Blasphemy go off) and he really only has one class level. He only has two feats. Yes, it is powerful, but those are powerful dis-ads. The LA is NOT a misprint. It may be wrong in your opinion, but note the Anthro Leopard, which is practically identical. Many of the Anthro's have very powerful ability pluses for their LA. That seems to have been the writer's intent. Not every race's LA calculates out "right". And IMHO- having to take several levels of hit die as opposed to class levels is a severe disadvantage. Class levels are way better. VoP is powerful also, but again= powerful dis-ads. And remember- he has to be Exalted. And, there ain't a lot of Exalted feats for a CHA 8 monk to take. I can see one or the other- NOT both. Note if what he wants is a cool cat race, there is one in the Mini-handbook. LA+1. No racial HD.