Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ranaul 09-15-07, 01:57 PM	I've been DMing for awhile, but every campaign seems to end right around lvl 8 or 9. We either get bored or finish what we were set out to do. An old player is going to be in town for a week and he said he wanted to play, and we had the great idea of letting the players start at lvl 10 so they can experience alot of the abilities they never have before. Now I've never DMed something with that high of lvls. Any advice on how I should handle it? Any advice for the players? Do's and Don'ts maybe? Oh and another thing is that it looks like we might just end up with a 2 PC game. What level could I place them at where the two of them might be able to take down a dragon or other really great monsters. Well I need to get back to work, but any responses would be great, thanks in advance.
Malchius 09-15-07, 02:03 PM	10th Levels really like 9th level for most classes. I would recommend 15th Level so they can have finished most prestige classes and they could take on some Dragons. It may be a bit overpowered though, you might want to limit equipment or soemthing similiar.
RumpleCragstan 09-15-07, 04:59 PM	Having just finished my first 1-20 game, I have some don'ts. Don't: Use single, powerful enemies. Ever throw them up against something with a low fort and/or will save. Expect to actually pose a challenge to them in any form other than save-or-die. In my experiences, high level combat is just a bunch of save-or-die effects being thrown around, and it becomes a waiting game to see who rolls lower first. Whats worse, PCs can just throw thier saving throws into the stratosphere (after magic items, but before buff spells, one of my PCs in the previous game had a will save above 30 by 18th level) so they become all but immune to save-or-die. Very few things can toss out the sheer ammount of damage required to actually pose a threat, and if you don't outright floor them after one full attack, they're probably going to be healed back to full. As you can tell, I just really don't like high level. When my party of 3 PCs and 1 cohort can storm into a throne room with a 25th wizard lich, 2 adult fiendish red dragons, and 4 CR20 undead, and kill them all in 1d6 rounds without suffering too much trouble, I get somewhat frusterated. And yes, I was using them all appropriately. Hell, some of them never even had the chance to act....
AnonymousInternets 09-15-07, 05:02 PM	Here's how I evaluate levels... 1-5 Low-level. Everyone has 1 attack (2 for TWF), usually just one class, and not too much room to use effective combos. This is a good range for puzzle-heavy campaigns and campaigns where most important NPC's are still low-level. 6-11 Mid-level. Characters have some of the limitations of the past, but are beginning to develop more individualized builds and combos, and have goals for future levels very slowly emerging. This is a fun range for campaigns with relatively fast XP gain, because it's when players just begin to reach some of their goals at each passing level. This also tends to be where balancing encounters is easiest. 12-16 High-level. Characters begin getting stronger exponentially. Multiclassing and ability combos are used and characters start becoming what they dreamed of in the low levels. This is a fun range for characters who can optimize but won't go overboard, so long as the DM knows how to counter what they create. 17-20 Very High-level. Your monsters will have to deal with very high AC's and Saving Throws, and anything short of level 15 or so won't stand a chance to survive more than a round or two in battle. Combat shifts to almost all bosses, as anything less is taken out in a heartbeat. This is a fun range for short campaigns once in a while to let off some over-the-top power steam. 21+ Epic level. Most balance mechanics are thrown out the window. Combat will be hard to keep consistent, and you'll have to rely more on story for engaging sessions. Rarely worth the time unless the characters have been around for a long time and the players want to see what becomes of their epic investments and setting/plot.
Legendarius 09-15-07, 06:57 PM	Having just finished my first 1-20 game, I have some don'ts. Don't: Use single, powerful enemies. Ever throw them up against something with a low fort and/or will save. Expect to actually pose a challenge to them in any form other than save-or-die. I generally agree with these points. Have some interesting NPC/monster combos to hit the PCs with. So give the boss some good minions. Make the PCs fight on the bad guy's turf. Give the villain a reasonable opportunity to prepare to have buffs ready, have their magic items on them, etc. Make the encounter areas challenging in their own right, where certain tactics that the bad guys can employ are more effective or the terrain limits the PCs. Break out monsters from books other than MM1 that they may not have a clue about. Give the PCs a couple of cake walks though to give them a false sense of security and show how bad they've become. L
Crisilac 09-23-07, 12:22 AM	For real BBEG's, fudge dice rolls for instant death saves and the like. It's horrifyingly anticlimactic to battle a wizard for years only to kill him in a single spell. If it's a minor character, just let them die if they fail.
1337Ninja 09-23-07, 07:24 AM	As you can tell, I just really don't like high level. When my party of 3 PCs and 1 cohort can storm into a throne room with a 25th wizard lich, 2 adult fiendish red dragons, and 4 CR20 undead, and kill them all in 1d6 rounds without suffering too much trouble, I get somewhat frusterated. And yes, I was using them all appropriately. Hell, some of them never even had the chance to act.... If the lich got stormed, then he wasn't played intelligently. Let's see how to improve your strategy. 1. Alarm spells to give him warning. 2. Contingent greater teleport spell to get him out of danger when it looks like he might die. 3. An intelligently placed phylactery makes him nigh-invulnerable. 4. If he does somehow die, then as far as I'm aware, clone still works for him. Otherwise, get a cleric mook to cast revive undead to bring him back, because it doesn't kill the lich when his phylactery goes poof. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20070912a) 5. The dragons have spellcasting capability, as well as plenty of skills. They've been around for a while, they've either bullied casters into making clones for them or used a scroll to get one. 6. Dragons shouldn't be in an enclosed area. They should have grabbed weak-looking PCs thanks to snatch, flown up and then ripped them to shreds while out of range of the tough fighter types. 7. A lich has been around for a while, he's going to have magical defenses around. He should have thrown a wall of force up in front of the door when the alarm triggered, then when the PCs ran into it, said the command word that would activate all the traps around that door. That's just off the top of my head, of course. Looking through my spell lists and splat books would take too long, and I think you've probably got the point already. Of course, if the PCs did anything to counter these strategies, then explain how. You just make it sound like they ran in completely unprepared and blitzed the encounter.
Sildatorak 09-23-07, 12:50 PM	Since they are making PCs fresh from scratch at level 10, I recommend giving them some time to arena battle each other "off the record." If you just throw them into an adventure without testing out their characters at all, your combats are going to crawl because they won't know what their options are.
Senevri 09-23-07, 07:15 PM	Hmm. Be strict in giving loot. Dusk Giants are fun. For the DM. At level 10 you can still use _some_ geographical challenges, but not for long. Make story/plot challenges in addition to fight challenges. Sure, they could go and kill the BBEG, but he's about to marry the princess of the realm and nobody but you knows he's the BBEG... TRY OUT your monsters as much as possible before playing them. they usually have tricks in SLAs or SU abilities that won't be obvious immediately. Write new-style statblocks for those critters you use, if they're from the older books. Those are good. Think in the terms of "what can this do? What will it do in round 1, round 2" etc. Use groups of monsters. Boss + 4 henches, and such is better than a tougher boss. Offer your players the chance to buy land or to create a company - give them venues to spend GP outside magic items. DO NOT allow magic shops with everything available in your game. Use skill checks for every item they want. if you do allow magic shoppes, don't allow custom items. If you allow custom items, at the very least make them craft those themselves. Beware Polymorph, Gate.
GoriceXII 09-23-07, 07:21 PM	Dungeon Magazine has put out some excellent 10+ adventures. I highly recommend checking out paizo.com for some of them.
RumpleCragstan 09-23-07, 10:27 PM	If the lich got stormed, then he wasn't played intelligently. Lets review circumstances. Astral plane (so spellcasters get a free quickened spell every round) 3 PCs: Cleric/Stormlord/Heirophant 18, Drow Wizard/Incantrix 16, Cleric/Master of Radiance 18. Lich has known these guys were coming for a good few minutes. Her and all of her minions are buffed to hell with things that increase saves, stoneskin, spell turning, positive energy resistance (for the undead), and pretty much every other buff with duractions in minutes are on her minions and herself. She didn't know exactly when they'd appear, so she didn't get a suprise round. I ruled that both groups (the Lich + minions / the PCs) knew about one another, so they both acted without being suprised. PCs win Init. Master of Radiance drops a Greater Dispel Magic and destroys all the buffs in the room. Then he readies an action to counterspell the lich. Heirophant drops 2 Mass Heals. Every undead in the room drops to dust. Incantrix drops 2 maximized Field of Icy Razors. Red Dragons drop dead. Tell me how I could have possibly, even remotely, given those monsters a half-decent chance? Other than fudging rolls (which, by the way, wouldn't have mattered for most of them because even on 2 *passed* saves all the undead in the room would have dropped from 2 mass heals) I don't see many opportunities for things to go any other way. And honestly, if the PCs wouldn't have won initiative, the enemies would have raped them outright. Hell, the dragons alone would have killed them in one round, given an even chance. High level combat is decided by initiative and saving throws. Since the saving throws of the PCs will *ALWAYS* be higher than almost any given monster or NPC of the appropriate level, its really safe to assume that its really biased in the PCs favor.
MareltEkiran 09-23-07, 10:53 PM	Assume that enemies have a bit of a hivemind. This works very well when fighting a larger organization or creatures like Devils or Formians. It can also be applied to creatures that have access to Divinations. For example, in the previously mentioned example, a doubled-up Field of Icy Razors may be death to the first Red Dragon, but the older Red Dragon who was keeping an eye on this newbie will then have Resist Energy: Cold precast. And of course, he's not going to give them a sporting chance. Get invisible, hide and get the drop on them in a surprise round. Also, illusions can be murder if the PC's have a bit of a time limit. A relatively low level minion can have a Major Image of an enormous Dragon appear. If the PC's first instinct is to immediately pull out their big guns, they end up wasting a lot of resources this way. And the only thing that reliably beats these things is True Seeing, but that only lasts one minute per level and eats away more precious high level slots. Finally, everything they can do, you can do better. And that doesn't only go for offenses, but for defenses as well. For example, there are prestige classes that make it harder for someone to dispel your stuff. There's also a relatively cheap ring that adds +4 to the checks needed to dispel. Search around a bit... Have the BBEG be a Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil who keeps readying counterspells (very powerful ones) while his minions beat down on the PC's. Have an illusionist be prepared with things like Mislead and Project Image to make PC's waste valuable spells. Have an Invisible Wall of Greater Dispel Magic ready in order to get rid of PC buffs when they storm in. Debuffing also helps. A lot of Debuff spells bypass saves. Dispel Magic is in it's own way a Debuff spell, but there are others. Ray of Dizziness can make any melee character a sitting duck (and may present some problems for mages, who would have to stay on the same spot to cast spells). Enervations (especially Arcane Thesis, Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray Enervations) don't have saves and can really ruin someone's day (hey, Mr. Wizard... that CL 4 Chain Lightning kinda... tickled). And while Ray of Enfeeblement can't reduce STR to zero, it can reduce it to the point that a character's gear encumbers him to the point of no movement (and you can always follow with a Ray of Exhaustion or Waves of Exhaustion later). And sure... a cleric can probably fix most of these things, but that's more rounds that the cleric is not killing your monsters, meaning that the monsters have more beatdown time. And get creative with costumizing monsters. There's probably some way to create a Fiendish Ooze that is not only resistant to most forms of energy but also laughs at 100+ power attacks. A Lich who creatively uses paint and make-up (not even True Seeing beats make-up) can well appear like a living creature. Hilarity ensues as the PC's try to Dispel his supposed protection spells after he shakes off their Chain Lightnings and arrows, after which they try to use a Harm to finish it quickly. P.S. @ RumpleCragstan: Could you care to explain how a Hierophant manages to cast two Ninth level spells in one round or how a Master of Radiance can dispel all buffs in a room with a single Greater Dispel Magic, against the spells of a 25th level caster, no less (even assuming he miraculously made all dispel checks, he can still at most kill off one spell per creature within a fairly small area). P.P.S. Okay... I missed the part about the Astral Plane giving Free Quickened spells (in what setting does it do that, by the way?). But that goes a long way in explaining things, because you have effectively doubled the characters' attack power, so no wonder it became Russian Roulette. My question about the miraculous instant-dispel still stand, though.
MareltEkiran 09-23-07, 11:18 PM	Oh, and to specifically answer the question of the OP about do's or don'ts... in games that I have hosted, I generally houserule a blanket ban on Death effects (meaning, PC's don't use them, Monsters and NPC's don't use them). If a monster happens to have a Death effect as part of it's natural abilities, then try to find something in the same flavour with more or less equivalent power (such as replacing Symbol of Death with Symbol of Pain or Symbol of Stun). In my experience, it doesn't take anything away from gameplay. It just encourages better strategy, rather than throwing Death effects and hoping for the luck of the dice.
Sildatorak 09-24-07, 01:03 AM	I've found that from levels 10-15 there really aren't that many death effects thrown around. The spellcasting seems to either be major battlefield control spells (wall of xxxx, blade barrier, heightened slow), buffs, and damage related spells. My group is a bit heavy on the fighter-types, though, so the save or dies don't play well with the rest of the group. If they take down a monster that only had 40 or so hp left, it is a waste of a spell, and if the monster makes its save, it is a waste of a spell.
Tedronai 09-24-07, 02:01 AM	And then there's the part of Mass Heal vs. Undead never actually being capable of DESTROYING them. Best case scenario: you have a room full of baddies with 1 HP each. Now, if it was a Mass Heal followed by a Mass Inflict Critical Wounds, that would do the trick, provided the Inflict dealt sufficient damage.
1337Ninja 09-24-07, 03:23 AM	Tedronai: That would be 3.0 rules. It does a set amount of damage in 3.5. In this case, 180 damage with a save for half. I'm not sure why CR 20 undead have 180 or less HP and no innate spell resistance, but I guess Rumple can answer that. RumpleCragstan: Ok, so why did the PCs get a chance to fight whilst on the Astral Plane? Why where they all exactly where they appeared to be? If you can answer those, then I might be able to make some more specific criticisms of your strategy.
MareltEkiran 09-24-07, 12:59 PM	3.5 rules kept the rule that Harm can never reduce a creature to lower than 1 HP. The difference between the 3.0 and the 3.5 spell is that you can no longer kill a 1000 HP god by reducing him to 1d4 HP without a save.
albinomonkeyking 09-24-07, 01:31 PM	Level 10 + is boring? Huh, that's odd. Myself and my players all prefer the game after that point. Low level there is really very little abilities; whether high lvl spells or final abilities of prestige classes or whatever. I always liked the later levels because you get so much more interesting things that you can do. Low level seemed much more: I hit, okay, he hits. Okay, end combat. Anyway, aside from that. I'm pretty experienced with that area of battle and I'll give you the best advice I can if you are going off the book. 1) Don't trust CR. Sometimes they are too strong, sometimes too weak. Especially with a group of 2 players. I would recommend you find out the + to hit, the dmg, the hp, the ACs, and the saves (spells or personal saves, i.e. fort, will, reflex) of the two players. From there you are ready to plan encounters and villians and that information will be invaluable. If you know you are going to have two meatheads who just absorb and dish out damage then throw them what will be fun. No, that doesn't mean spellcasters who go after their will save, that's boring and it sucks. You don't want to just one-shot the party. 2) They are tough now. That means don't expect them to be pushed over by town guards or local ruffians or whatnot. If someone in a bar picks a fight he better be as hardened as they are, and that takes a lot of work. 3)Custom make many encounters. This seems like a lot more work than it is. What it comes down to is seeing the strengths and weaknesses of your characters and playing off that. Don't exploit a huge weakness often, although letting them know a weakness is still just that, a weakness, is okay. If they dish out massive damage give them something with massive health, that may mean making your own baddie up or just adding on some dice. On a side note; you don't need to fudge to beat the players. If your players drop spells that one-shot then get the villians-that-matter protection against it. If your player is a damaging machine but he has a low plus to hit throw him some decent AC's to keep the fights going (do NOT throw him AC's he can only hit 5% of the time, it will probably just frustrate him). I guess it's the difference of low-level is low power and high-level, logically, is high power. The damage output, AC, health, everything can get out of hand quickly. Watch your numbers, watch your players, and watch yourself. Don't overdo it. Hope any of that helped. Good luck.
Terrainosaur 09-24-07, 06:59 PM	Master of Radiance drops a Greater Dispel Magic and destroys all the buffs in the room. Then he readies an action to counterspell the lich. WHAT? There is so much wrong. Every buff in the room meant a lot of die rolling. Greater Dispel Magic isn't automatic. And a 25th level lich's buffs vs. an 18th level PCs means that caster level check is going to be DC 36! How did he beat every check at DC 36? Allowing either side with heavy spellcasters to go first was a recipe for disaster in your circumstances. If the Lich went first, he'd probably have incinerated a PC with two spells. Yes high level play is on a knife-edge, but you made that knife a lot sharper by puting them in the Astral plane. Heirophant drops 2 Mass Heals. Every undead in the room drops to dust. All that means is 2 Mass Harms; the targets need to be within 70' of the hierophant; and they need to be within 30' of each other. Then the targets get Will saves. A lvl 25 lich dropped to dust because of a lvl 18 caster cast one spell? Tell me how I could have possibly, even remotely, given those monsters a half-decent chance? I think you didn't know the rules, didn't apply the rules properly, and set up an extreme situation.
1337Ninja 09-25-07, 03:57 AM	3.5 rules kept the rule that Harm can never reduce a creature to lower than 1 HP. The difference between the 3.0 and the 3.5 spell is that you can no longer kill a 1000 HP god by reducing him to 1d4 HP without a save. *checks SRD* Well so it did. You learn something every day. Can't believe I never realised that.:confused:
Drag0nUL 09-25-07, 07:47 AM	Lets review circumstances. Astral plane (so spellcasters get a free quickened spell every round) 3 PCs: Cleric/Stormlord/Heirophant 18, Drow Wizard/Incantrix 16, Cleric/Master of Radiance 18. Lich has known these guys were coming for a good few minutes. Her and all of her minions are buffed to hell with things that increase saves, stoneskin, spell turning, positive energy resistance (for the undead), and pretty much every other buff with duractions in minutes are on her minions and herself. She didn't know exactly when they'd appear, so she didn't get a suprise round. I ruled that both groups (the Lich + minions / the PCs) knew about one another, so they both acted without being suprised. PCs win Init. Master of Radiance drops a Greater Dispel Magic and destroys all the buffs in the room. Then he readies an action to counterspell the lich. Heirophant drops 2 Mass Heals. Every undead in the room drops to dust. Incantrix drops 2 maximized Field of Icy Razors. Red Dragons drop dead. Tell me how I could have possibly, even remotely, given those monsters a half-decent chance? Other than fudging rolls (which, by the way, wouldn't have mattered for most of them because even on 2 *passed* saves all the undead in the room would have dropped from 2 mass heals) I don't see many opportunities for things to go any other way. And honestly, if the PCs wouldn't have won initiative, the enemies would have raped them outright. Hell, the dragons alone would have killed them in one round, given an even chance. High level combat is decided by initiative and saving throws. Since the saving throws of the PCs will *ALWAYS* be higher than almost any given monster or NPC of the appropriate level, its really safe to assume that its really biased in the PCs favor. I must agree. The lich wasn't played very smart. From my experience, if you intend to keep your buffs against enemy spellcasters, items/spells that raise your caster level are a must. Still, a single area dispel can't drop all buffs in the room. Even assuming the said Cleric had all the possible caster level buffs(Bead of Karma, Create Magical Tattoo, Hymn of Praise), that would put his CL at 25,on par with the lich. He'd still have to roll 11+ on any dispel check to succeed(or 18+without those). The dragons should have had Energy Immunuty:Cold cast on them. Still buffing and meeting the enemy this way involved a pretty serious gamble. A better strategy,would have been to take advantage of the superior melee capabilities of the dragons. AMF on everyone(widened AMF for dragons, adn spacing all AMF bearing persons so that they cover as much of an area as possible) and engage melee. It would have come to 2 red dragons vs. 1 commoner and 2 3/4 of a fighter.
daytripper 09-25-07, 09:59 AM	You are right to imagine that the higher levels are a very different experience. Some things I learned when I did 11-15 for the first time: 1) Encounters take a lot longer as everyone works through their options and applies the effects of powerful abilities. Plan for fewer per session. [Got hasted Fighter13 with lion's shield and fortification armor? Check.] To keep it interesting, remember to add exciting descriptions as often as possible. 2) Related to this, you have to know your NPC/baddies much better. They have more options, spells and special abilities and thus more choices for you to remember and act upon. [Got advanced fiendish nessian warhounds protecting vampire drow Cleric12 and chasme demon servant? Check.] Study the monsters more than you would before a lower-level session. Prepare some general strategies and attack routines. 3) D&D combat system favors ambushes (because everyone has to wait their turn). Because of this, the higher-level smarter monsters should be at least as concerned about being ambushed as the PCs are, if not more. As another poster mentioned, have smart monsters use alarms, traps, minions, spells and terrain to protect themselves for at least 2-3 rounds so they can buff. Plus, this gives the Rogue12 under greater invisibility and with Move Silently +27 a chance to shine. Also, Chasing BBEG from lairs #1 and #2 to finally corner him in his sanctum on the elemental plane of fire as he attempts to combust every innocent soul in the world is what high-level adventuring is about. 4) I also echo the use of pre-published adventures from sources like Dungeon magazine. [My group enjoyed the Istivin story arc in 119-121(?).] If nothing else, all the nasty stat blocks are provided and you can spend time thinking about tactics and synergies.
RumpleCragstan 09-25-07, 01:19 PM	WHAT? There is so much wrong. Every buff in the room meant a lot of die rolling. Greater Dispel Magic isn't automatic. And a 25th level lich's buffs vs. an 18th level PCs means that caster level check is going to be DC 36! How did he beat every check at DC 36? When the dispeller gets +20 to thier check with greater dispel, its really easy to get DC36 when you're rolling 1d20+38 (assuming its an 18th level caster). Secondly, when you're using the area dispel, which is pretty much designed to take out buff, you only roll on the highest CL. If you beat the highest CL out of all the spell effects in the given area in one roll, they *ALL* drop. If you didn't make it, then you compare it to the next highest CL, and if you beat that, then that CL and all the ones below it drops. If you don't get that one, try the next lowest CL, wash, rinse, repeat. Allowing either side with heavy spellcasters to go first was a recipe for disaster in your circumstances. If the Lich went first, he'd probably have incinerated a PC with two spells. Yes high level play is on a knife-edge, but you made that knife a lot sharper by puting them in the Astral plane. Admittedly, I did make things much more dangerous by putting the PCs on the astral plane. However, the adventure called for it. And ironically enough, it was one of the pre-written adventures from Dungeon magazine (specifically the adventure in question was 'The Lich Queen's Beloved'. All that means is 2 Mass Harms; the targets need to be within 70' of the hierophant; and they need to be within 30' of each other. Then the targets get Will saves. A lvl 25 lich dropped to dust because of a lvl 18 caster cast one spell? The will saves were not even worth looking at, since the Heirophant jacked his DCs up so high that only he could pass them (he had his will save in the upper 30s by that time). 2 spells, each one dealing 180 damage (or 90 on a passed save. Even though she passed both her saves, she got wasted. I admit to having missed the point about being limited to dropping her to 1hp, and that would have made a difference, but there's no going back on it now I suppose.
Drag0nUL 09-25-07, 02:09 PM	When the dispeller gets +20 to thier check with greater dispel, its really easy to get DC36 when you're rolling 1d20+38 (assuming its an 18th level caster). Secondly, when you're using the area dispel, which is pretty much designed to take out buff, you only roll on the highest CL. If you beat the highest CL out of all the spell effects in the given area in one roll, they *ALL* drop. If you didn't make it, then you compare it to the next highest CL, and if you beat that, then that CL and all the ones below it drops. If you don't get that one, try the next lowest CL, wash, rinse, repeat. You are wrong. According to the PHB: for a dispel check you roll 1d20+caster level (max +10 for dispel, max+20 for greater dispel) the +20 is the maximum caster level, not a bonus added to the caster level check. So he would have been rolling 1d20+18 not 1d20+38. And also by spell description, an area dispel can dispel 1 spell per target, fact which 'discharges the spell'(again PHB quote). The will saves were not even worth looking at, since the Heirophant jacked his DCs up so high that only he could pass them (he had his will save in the upper 30s by that time). 2 spells, each one dealing 180 damage (or 90 on a passed save. Even though she passed both her saves, she got wasted. I admit to having missed the point about being limited to dropping her to 1hp, and that would have made a difference, but there's no going back on it now I suppose. I really don't know why people are so surprised to see 30+ saves at level 20. Any primary wisdom caster could have +12 base and +9 wis modifier by that level. That is a starting will save of +21. Add periapt of wis+6 and cloak of resistance +5 and you are already at +29,before any save-enhancing spells come into play.
RumpleCragstan 09-26-07, 03:29 PM	You are wrong. According to the PHB: for a dispel check you roll 1d20+caster level (max +10 for dispel, max+20 for greater dispel) the +20 is the maximum caster level, not a bonus added to the caster level check. So he would have been rolling 1d20+18 not 1d20+38. And also by spell description, an area dispel can dispel 1 spell per target, fact which 'discharges the spell'(again PHB quote). After review of the books, you're right. Me and my players are all idiots regarding this, and it all looks so much more balanced now. I really don't know why people are so surprised to see 30+ saves at level 20. Any primary wisdom caster could have +12 base and +9 wis modifier by that level. That is a starting will save of +21. Add periapt of wis+6 and cloak of resistance +5 and you are already at +29,before any save-enhancing spells come into play. Exactly.... however, DCs aren't nearly as easy to jack up.
Drag0nUL 09-26-07, 04:22 PM	Exactly.... however, DCs aren't nearly as easy to jack up. True. It is pretty hard to get a DC higher than 35-40. Still, almost no character can raise all his saves to that level. It would be pretty stupid to target a Cleric/Druid with a Will save spell. However, Enveloping Cocoon+Baleful Polymorph for example is a much better choice(Reflex is these classes' weakest save).
MareltEkiran 09-26-07, 06:44 PM	Which is why I love using save-less spells so much. You'd be surprised how much harm you can inflict with an empowered and/or split ray quickened Ray of Enfeeblement, followed by a Waves of Exhaustion. Most spellcasters have gone flat on their faces by that point. ... or just a simple Arcane Thesis Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray Enervation. That wizard is not so scary anymore with a -10 to -12 to his caster level and all his higher level spells in shambles.
Voran 09-26-07, 07:24 PM	My thoughts. By level 10 Character parties should be starting to get involved in larger scale (in terms of scope/consequences) storylines. Under older scales, level 10 was around the time you were 'getting noticed' by more powerful beings, good and evil. You could start putting together a stronghold, or guild or whatever. You started to gain followers, etc. Adventures moved from a local or small town scale, to city/small kingdom scale. You could be more involved in command level situations of armies, rather than "Scouting Party/special forces". The dragon thing is a tough call. As we've gone through various Edition changes, to me, the whole "Yeah, just like in the anime I'm going to take on an Ancient Red all by myself" seems less and less plausible. On one hand you'd like to encourage Players to aim high, on the other, they way they've setup dragons, you'd need to play the dragon like a total idiot that doesn't know its own abilities in order to let small groups (low level to high level) have a chance. Tangling with various dragonspawn is perfectly fine at Level 10, and appropriate for the new challenge levels a party that range should encounter. But the whole "I'm totally going to kick Smaug's ass" thing is a much much higher goal.
Drag0nUL 09-26-07, 07:57 PM	Which is why I love using save-less spells so much. You'd be surprised how much harm you can inflict with an empowered and/or split ray quickened Ray of Enfeeblement, followed by a Waves of Exhaustion. Most spellcasters have gone flat on their faces by that point. ... or just a simple Arcane Thesis Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray Enervation. That wizard is not so scary anymore with a -10 to -12 to his caster level and all his higher level spells in shambles. I fully agree with this direction of thinking. I for one am a Holy Word fan. Just get a bard/wizard cohort(so that it can cast Hymn of Praise and Create Magical Tatoo), Good domain and a Bead of Karma. By level 15 I can walk around with a CL=HD+9. This means that almost any non-dragon dangerous opponent (outsiders, stuff with class levels, some aberrations) will be at least paralyzed, no save.