Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Karsus 04-14-06, 02:53 AM	-I've yet to ever run a campaign in my homebrewed campaign setting, but eventually I will. Around here, we have about 3 DMs. When one campaign ends, for whatever the reason, the next DM takes over quickly. Well, I seem to be the next DM up to bat. -I've worked extremely hard on my campaign setting, and am rather proud of it. I've tried to encorporate as many little nuonces to make the world believable and interesting. I find it interesting, anyway. :) -The problem is that the group isn't one that really cares about "those little details". If the party enters into a torture chamber that has purple and black disks painted onto the walls (The symbol of Shar, a Greater FR deity), the party will take little notice. Instead, they'll go straight in, do what they have to do, and not even bother to "investigate" what those symbols were, and why they are even there. -Does anyone have any tips as to how I can "groom" the players into actually trying to immerse themselves into the world, and think like a character actually present would? Am I eve making sense to anyone?
Khan2000 04-14-06, 03:06 AM	Have those small details a part of the plotline. Why are there purple and black disks on the wall of the weapon shop? Or on the back of the seemingly innocent drunk in the corner?
Lord Karsus 04-14-06, 03:14 AM	Have those small details a part of the plotline. Why are there purple and black disks on the wall of the weapon shop? Or on the back of the seemingly innocent drunk in the corner? -If tried to do that in subtle tones. That example was something from the last, short-lived campaign I ran. The slaver that they captured "suddenly" escaped from jail. When the PCs went to see the jailor in charge, they failed to notice that his carpets were purple, and wall panels painted black- the same colors of Shar. And, later on, when they captured an assassin hired to kill the characters, they failed to check his belongings, and find the holy symbol of Shar on him- tying the assassination attempt to the entire slavery theme. -I want to be subtle. Making things glaringly obvious might make the PCs catch on, but it does not make me feel good as a DM. Having things glaringly obvious in some cases just goes against all of my DM senses. A secretive cult is not going to make glaring mistakes. -Do you think there is anything I can say to them out of gaming, or do while in gaming to get them on the track I want them to be on? This is, of course, paying attention to the little things, because they might yield important clues later on.
Ralphius_Maximus 04-14-06, 03:16 AM	What he said. If the little details give clues which will actually have an impact on their ability to complete the quest, then they will quickly learn to pay attention and think about things. You might start with something obvious, like a dungeon crawl through the temple of a storm god with electrical traps and beasties everywhere. It's easy enough to anticipate something like that if you're paying attention, and to protect the group. Hell, even have a handy alchemist who "just happens" to have potions of electrical resistance in their stock. In the case of Shar, is there any particular weapon or energy associated with that god? Make the buggers pay for not noticing the clues by hitting them with it.
Amon_WinterfallIV 04-14-06, 03:22 AM	Sounds like you need to make those details IMPORTANT to the campaign! If you use puzzles or riddles, this can make all the difference. Not caring about the finest details can really hurt. Remember though, that if they don't care about the details, its kind of a waste to prepare for it. I spend a lot of time creating things for my world, but fine detail has never been one of them. Your best bet is describe things-- like castles, NPCs, or even magic items--that they really care about. Don't know how to handle a particular problem like you have in general, but you might have a short-term fix by rewarding them for paying attention to detail. YOU might just have a roll-heavy bunch, though.
PossiblyInsane 04-14-06, 03:42 AM	another problem is that you might be making the details too subtle. unlike a book, they can't look back a few pages and see "oh he mentioned black and purple discs" And of course they are so observant that that one time of telling them is enough of a clue [/sarcasm]
Tormsskull 04-14-06, 08:55 AM	-I've yet to ever run a campaign in my homebrewed campaign setting, but eventually I will. Around here, we have about 3 DMs. When one campaign ends, for whatever the reason, the next DM takes over quickly. Well, I seem to be the next DM up to bat. -I've worked extremely hard on my campaign setting, and am rather proud of it. I've tried to encorporate as many little nuonces to make the world believable and interesting. I find it interesting, anyway. :) -The problem is that the group isn't one that really cares about "those little details". If the party enters into a torture chamber that has purple and black disks painted onto the walls (The symbol of Shar, a Greater FR deity), the party will take little notice. Instead, they'll go straight in, do what they have to do, and not even bother to "investigate" what those symbols were, and why they are even there. -Does anyone have any tips as to how I can "groom" the players into actually trying to immerse themselves into the world, and think like a character actually present would? Am I eve making sense to anyone? Some players like hack and slash games, and don't care about those little details. I'd make sure the players up front know that you're expecting more than a hack & slash game. Once they know that you can: -Start simple, explain the little details as a result of a spot check or search check. "I rolled an 18 spot." "Jimbob, with a role of 18 you notice purple and black disks painted on the wall here. They seem to stand out from the rest of the wall." -Have an NPC seem interested in the little details. "You notice the guard keeps taking his eyes off you as you are speaking to him, looking towards something else. He seems to have a hard time concentrating on you." "I want to turn my head and see if I can figure out what he is looking at." "You turn your head and see a large building with a small plaque on it. The guard taps you on the shoulder to get your attention back, his face seems to be full of concern." -Use situation modifiers in combat. If the PCs rush into a room with black thin puddles on the ground, but pay them no attention, have one of the monsters throw a torch into the pool of oil and warm things up. -Have the little details lead to information, which can be used to help defeat a later villian. Maybe all those stupid marks on the wall were really an old form of Common, and if they actually stopped to read that stupid diary they found, they'd learn that those symbols were detailing the villians combat tatics, resistance to fire, vulnerability to shock, w/e. Have fun with the little details, they often spice up the game.
Judging Eagle 04-14-06, 11:56 AM	If the players don't know something, however their characters would; then you are doing a terrible job of writing up your adventures. If their characters might know that the purple disks represent Shar (evil moon godess, opposite of Selune) then have them make a Knowledge (Religion) check. If they don't have a cleric, archivist or a well-rounded knowledge-check wizard then that's their own fault. Just ask them to make knowledge checks more often. If they don't have any ranks they can't make any checks over 10 however; most easy knowldege checks start around 15, so they'll need at least 1 ranks to pull any knowledge. Remember, use the bloody rules and the guidelines for making a good adventure. Too many DMs gloss that over and think they're introducing "role-playing" which really means they expect their characters to meta-game and know information that is useless in real-life but that their characters probably would know or notice. Yes, knowing the dieties/history for any game is useless; I've read enough of them in my time to know that there's no point in knowing them (real facts/data > fake game crap); just have the knowledgable character rack his mind (and make the appropriate knowledge check). Even DMs seem to forget that Player =/= Charater and think that metagaming when a Player may know more than a Character and uses such information. However when a Character knows something (or could) that a player probably won't, then metagaming is also occuring; just a different kind that is limiting game-play.
Tormsskull 04-14-06, 12:06 PM	If the players don't know something, however their characters would; then you are doing a terrible job of writing up your adventures. If their characters might know that the purple disks represent Shar (evil moon godess, opposite of Selune) then have them make a Knowledge (Religion) check. If they don't have a cleric, archivist or a well-rounded knowledge-check wizard then that's their own fault. Just ask them to make knowledge checks more often. If they don't have any ranks they can't make any checks over 10 however; most easy knowldege checks start around 15, so they'll need at least 1 ranks to pull any knowledge. Remember, use the bloody rules and the guidelines for making a good adventure. Too many DMs gloss that over and think they're introducing "role-playing" which really means they expect their characters to meta-game and know information that is useless in real-life but that their characters probably would know or notice. Yes, knowing the dieties/history for any game is useless; I've read enough of them in my time to know that there's no point in knowing them (real facts/data > fake game crap); just have the knowledgable character rack his mind (and make the appropriate knowledge check). Even DMs seem to forget that Player =/= Charater and think that metagaming when a Player may know more than a Character and uses such information. However when a Character knows something (or could) that a player probably won't, then metagaming is also occuring; just a different kind that is limiting game-play. I'm not sure if I agree with this or not. I think players need to be proactive. As the book says, no matter a character's intelligence score, the true intelligence, and driving force of will behind the character, is ultimately the player. I wouldn't do: "You walk into this room, you see three pillars in the room and they stand about 15 feet from one another. There are some symbols on the wall. Jimbob make a religion check to see if you know what these symbols mean." IMHO its up to the player to decide to look at the symbols and try to figure out what they are thus provoking the knowledge check. I think the OP was insinuating that the PCs don't care about the little details, so they walk right through them towards the combat situations/treasure accumulation/etc.
StormKnight 04-14-06, 12:13 PM	The players have no way of knowing whether something you describe is interesting description or relevant to the plot. You don't want the KotDT situation where the group suddenly spends half an hour examining the cows in the field because you happened to mention they were walking past a field full of cows. Ok, that's extreme, but you should be able to describe things creatively without the PCs then running off to check every single thing you describe. The problem is, when your PCs next see those strange symbols, odds are the players have forgotten all about the last time - they have real lives to worry about to! So you may need to remind them. Getting your players to "care" about the world is usually best accomplished by creating plots built around the interests of their characters, and having three-dimensioal, interesting NPCs to interact with, not by lots of descriptive detail.
rockondon 04-14-06, 12:44 PM	I too would ask them to make knowledge: religion checks (or general knowledge checks if none of them have it). Or spot checks. When they have to make a check, they'll realize its important. If your group is a hack'n'slash group, then don't be surprised when all your subtle items of intrigue are completely lost on them. What's interesting to you may bore them completely. No matter how great a job you do at making your campaign, you won't change the way they are. Generally I go about 50/50 between hack'n'slash type encounters and intrigue/diplomacy/riddles type stuff, to accomodate combat-loving and non-combat loving players.
Jinta 04-14-06, 12:56 PM	I wouldn't do: "You walk into this room, you see three pillars in the room and they stand about 15 feet from one another. There are some symbols on the wall. Jimbob make a religion check to see if you know what these symbols mean." I would - sometimes... I think there are two keys here. 1. You have players that aren't used to, or aren't good at catching the intrigue behind the hacking. You may need to train them a bit. Hopefully after you help them (the characters) notice a couple of clues, they (the players) will catch on a bit. I don't kow if I'd do it quite as straightforward as the quote above... but I'd definitely call for the knowledge check at some point. 2. You do have a situation where what would seem to be obvious to characters is not so obvious to the players - and infrequently, I use an int or wisdom check to see if a charater notices connections like this. So, I'd give 'em a little help, and hope that gets them interested. If your intrigue story is compelling enough - they should start to look for these sorts of things eventually. Last point would be - maybe they're not players who really want to play this kind of game. As a DM, we need to allow for that. It's definitely our job to challenge our players, give them opportunites to play new situations etc... but it's mostly our job to make sure they're having fun. And, let's face it, if they're not having fun... we're not having fun. So, my last advice would be to not tie yourself too closely to your hopes for the adventure. If these players don't want to get as deep into it as you'd like them to, save it for players who do! and, have fun!
Lord Karsus 04-15-06, 12:30 AM	-Thanks for all of the advice, guys! About 99.9% of it has been useful.
Virginia_is_for_lovers 04-15-06, 12:46 AM	How long are your discriptions usally? I ask this because i had a DM once who (bless his heart) gave a crazy amount of discription and set up no matter the situation? He has since streamlined it much better, but he used to go on and on about the tiniest most useless details. So might just want to think about it, make sure they are not just zoneing out.
Lord Karsus 04-15-06, 01:06 AM	How long are your discriptions usally? I ask this because i had a DM once who (bless his heart) gave a crazy amount of discription and set up no matter the situation? He has since streamlined it much better, but he used to go on and on about the tiniest most useless details. So might just want to think about it, make sure they are not just zoneing out. -Well, using the example we are running with, here's a brief example: "The party steps through the doorway, and enter into a large chamber. There are four stone pillars in the center of the room, maing a crude square shape. All along the stone pillars are black and purple disks that seem to have been painted on. In the middle of the four stone pillars stands a figure, about the size of an average human. The figure is swathed in black robes, and has its back turned to the party. The person seems to be in the middle of chanting, or humming, and doesn't seem to have noticed anyone open the door behind him or her yet." -Something along those lines...
MSW 04-17-06, 03:25 PM	Create an NPC that is interested in all those little details and have him hire the party to find out "why purple and black disks" are being spotted painted onto the walls around town. The players are not going to care about the details unless you make them care about them. You also might want to find out what kind of a campaign your players want to run. If you are into details, and puzzles and heavy role playing, but the players just care about battles and gathering wealth, you are running the wrong sort of campaign for this group. Interview the players out of game and find out what it is they want from a campaign, then make the game they want.
gleep 04-17-06, 03:44 PM	-If the party enters into a torture chamber that has purple and black disks painted onto the walls (The symbol of Shar, a Greater FR deity) DM: "After the fight with the two guards and that weirdly-dressed woman with a whip you manage to take a look around. It's a cozy enough torture chamber, if you're into that sort of thing, with spikes, chains, manacles, racks, etc etc, and these purple and black disks on the walls." JoeBarbarian: In a bored tone, "Purple and black disks?" DM: "Yeah, they're <detailed description follows" Players: Suddenly interested. CathyWizard: "I walk around them, doing my elven thing for hidden doors." JohnRogue: "While she's doing that, I'll search for traps." DM: (search rolls) "Nope, no hidden doors." (more rolls) "No traps." Mingled mess of comments: "Can we pry them off the walls?" "Do they rotate?" Are they metal?" "Can they be used as shields?" "Are there any odors?" "Do they radiate magic?" "Are they masterwork?" "I scrape one and see if they're painted over a precious metal." "How heavy are they?" An hour later, the PCs have pried every symbol off the wall, stacked them in their bag of holding, thoroughly searched the walls behind the symbols, scraped the paint off of two of them, and are making plans to go to a respected wizard contact to have them tested to make sure there's no enchantments. They don't even notice their poor DM, curled up under the table having a breakdown. Later that day, they get in a fight with the dreaded gazebo... :D --gleep
Slider33 04-17-06, 04:49 PM	This is a tough nut to crack. I've had trouble getting some of my players to "get into" the world at times as well. Sometimes it's tricky if they just want to bust down doors and hack through baddies. And, unfortunately you can't really skimp on that if they are looking for it. Otherwise they get bored. You almost have to force them to pay attention. A good way to do this is some kind of affliction or curse. Give them a purpose that they can't avoid. Maybe those dark disks of Shar place curses on those of alignment X, or all of the sudden their most favorite thing is in jeopardy, or cursed itself. Then the gotta work toward lifting that curse, or affliction. Then maybe they'll start paying attention to details when they see the next suspicious looking symbol or disk. I think a long-lasting effect is best. It's something they have to work to remedy, not just cast a spell or sleep it off. Make it a lasting curse, or make it a lasting haunt. Or, next time they come across a room where you want them to pay attention to the details, lock the suckers in the room! Make the door close behind them so they have to tinker and experiment on how to get out of this place. Then they'll start paying attention, since they can't just leave to find the next room and rinse-repeat. Maybe they actually have to read whats on the altar or on the wall. So, when subtlety fails, use a hammar and smack em in the face with it so to speak. Edit: Mystery can also be a good tool. Maybe an anonymous note slipped to them from a mysterious courier will spark their interest. Leave questions unanswered, maybe they'll start paying attention. And if they aren't the type that ask questions or want to look into it, force them into it by sticking with something they can't easily get rid of, and a little investigation is mandatory in order to lift their condition.
kelvinaw273 04-17-06, 05:06 PM	Make the details count. Make them check Knowledge (Religion) to tell that if they enter the area Shar will likely curse them if they do not use a light spell to neutralise her presence. Make the details important to the plot, and make the conseqences of missing them noticable. Soon, they will care.
tiercel 04-17-06, 08:57 PM	Subtle details are hard to gauge. 1) As the DM, you know what the details mean, so they make sense to you. It may not be obvious what the significance is to your players, especially at first, even if they notice you are giving weight to a kind of detail. 2) As the DM, you are thinking about the campaign in between sessions more than your players do, so all the little details of what happened in the last game are fresher in your mind than in theirs. (This is particularly important if you play only semi-frequently, like twice a month.) Sometimes your players may simply not recognize that a clue/hint is recurring. 3) As the DM, you have to gauge the clueless-factor of your players. Some players will sniff a clue a mile away (or at least spin out a thousand speculative theories, one of which may even be right). Other players have clue resistance 30 and require an anvil dropped from low planetary orbit before noticing anything. You have to tailor your subtlety to the receptiveness (and interest!) of your players. If your players are not terribly receptive/interested, try a few obvious sort of clues, not necessarily directly related to your main line of intrigue. Just put some obvious details that have important effects into the dungeon dressing, then have things blow up when the players ignore them. Once your players start picking up that some details can be important, you can start introducing more subtle details that don't have immediate "blow you up if you ignore me" implications. Alternatively, it may just be that your group of players doesn't find detail-gathering that interesting. It can be worth trying the "obvious" approach to get them into it, but if it is not what they like/enjoy, it might be better not to railroad them in that direction. It's nice to try, but in the end they have to be happy with the game too.
Arganis 04-17-06, 09:16 PM	All of the above posters have given very good advice. However, I want to take a different approach. 1) Stop what you are trying to do. 2) Require that each player write up a detailed character history. 3) Discuss each history with the players. Ask questions. Solicit details. Provide feedback. 4) Write adventures and campaigns with these histories in mind. You needn't go overkill with any one player's history to start with. Just toss something in every now and then. Bring around familiar NPCs, or deliver them letters from people they've known. If a player character had run from Priests of Shar as a child, and purple and black were colors he associated with the death of his family, he would notice because instead of trying to make a new detail important to the character, you are using a detail that is already important. As you requested, this is a way to "groom" your players. As time progresses they should... hopefully... start picking up on details and trying to find out why they are important.
Arakim 04-17-06, 09:29 PM	Here's an alternative idea (I hope). Plan out the encounters in advance, and add up all the exp. Now, hand out half the exp for the fights themselves, and give the rest when they reach whatever important find you need them to find (i.e. plot point). 1. Your players will know that the bulk of the exp is for completing the adventure, not killing mobs. Now they are focusing more on the story. 2. your players may not kill everything at first, hoping to find a little more story exp. Make sure to let your players know about this up front, and make sure they are on board for this kind of thing. Some groups just like to, "Bash Orc with rock," and these groups will lynch you for a story-run game. Whatever kind of game you want to run, put the exp there. If story is your passion, that's where all the exp should go. If you like tactical combat, then killing monsters is where all the exp should go.