Post/Author/DateTime	Post
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-09-05, 09:33 AM	well...heh heh, my players bypassed lava at 5th level. according to my calculator i need someone to do this equation to figure out how much EXP we actually got(we just decided at 15th level and to never speak of it again) but i'm curious: 8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8=? (approx. a CL 24 encounter with the monsters and the lava)
JD 10-09-05, 09:38 AM	8^13? Ouch. Unless I've miscounted, the answer comes out as 549,755,813,888, or approximately 550 trillion.
prettyripples 10-09-05, 09:41 AM	Well, that's 8 ^ 13 8^13 = (2^3)^13 = 2^39 = (2^40)/2 = ((2^10)^4)/2 = (1024^4)/2 ~ (1000^4)/2 = 500,000,000,000 Are you sure about your equation? How on earth did you get that many 8s, and did you mean x and not +?
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-09-05, 10:12 AM	8^13? Ouch. Unless I've miscounted, the answer comes out as 549,755,813,888, or approximately 550 trillion. i didn't miscalculate it. that puts our characters somewhere in the area of waldorf. oops.
Sorbeth 10-09-05, 11:14 AM	What was the encounter?
Gilean 10-09-05, 11:52 AM	Only 1 level per encounter. Sorry.
nissir2000 10-09-05, 11:56 AM	I would also like to know what happened :)
Ibbins 10-09-05, 12:00 PM	I'm curious to know how you got that equation. What do the masses of eights come from...? And yes, just to simplifiy matters(and follow the RAW anyway), the PCs only grow one level per encounter.
The Hive Custodian 10-09-05, 01:04 PM	Shouldn't it only be 5 x 300 x 2^(0.5 (24 - 5))? It's still over 1 million, but it's not 8^13.
LugWrench 10-09-05, 01:13 PM	Even if he gets a skillion xps, the characters can only go up ONE level from it, and be half way to the next level, IIRC. You cant jump from 1st to 15th, sorry. Gotta do it the old fashioned way.
Shaken, not Stunned 10-09-05, 01:17 PM	WHY!?! I mean, how did we get this equation?
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 01:21 PM	WHY!?! I mean, how did we get this equation? Ditto. You "bypassed lava"? What in the hell does that mean? "Ahead of you there is a puddle of lava. Do you step in it?" "No, I walk around it." "Good job! Here's 50 jillion xp!" " :uh-huh: "
JD 10-09-05, 03:01 PM	Hell, at third level my rogue managed to make a fifteen-foot standing jump over a lava pit. But don't ask me, I just do the sums...
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-09-05, 06:21 PM	Only 1 level per encounter. Sorry. DM can change any rule he wants. Sorry.
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-09-05, 06:27 PM	no, it was more like huge, boiling, jetting pit of lava that was almost 8100 square feet. and the only way across was to make constant balance checks. provided the enemies didn't cut the rope bridges while they were crossing. and each rope bridge was almost 400 feet long, so no jumping either. Yeah, my own rule screwed me. Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. luckily, we just decided we were about level 15. That just leaves explaining it to the guy who missed the session. my character made the poor guy a +5 flaming greatsword to make up for it, though :)
The Hive Custodian 10-09-05, 06:32 PM	Isn't experience supposed to be character level x 300 x 2^(0.5 (CR - character level))? Am I not supposed to say anything about XP for CR? And where'd you get 8^13 from?
GenesisDK 10-09-05, 06:37 PM	Hey, he makes the rules. And isnt it one level and 1 xp from the next that's the standard rule? Anyways, 8 in the 13th makes 549 755 813 900. It would take a long time to figure out what level that is. Lvl 100 is at XP 509 455 000, which is less than 1% of the full amount of XP. 8^13 would get you to atleast lvl 750, at which point, you don't even care about divine ascendance and stuff anymore.
Phrennzy 10-09-05, 08:28 PM	no, it was more like huge, boiling, jetting pit of lava that was almost 8100 square feet. and the only way across was to make constant balance checks. provided the enemies didn't cut the rope bridges while they were crossing. and each rope bridge was almost 400 feet long, so no jumping either. Yeah, my own rule screwed me. Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. luckily, we just decided we were about level 15. That just leaves explaining it to the guy who missed the session. my character made the poor guy a +5 flaming greatsword to make up for it, though :) None of that explains where the 8 comes from, or where you get it drawn out to the 13th power.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 08:32 PM	Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. Wait...puddles of lava have ELs and CRs now? :confused: Is this a 3.5 thing? Between the 500 trillion XP and the lava and the 8s (Oh dear god the 8s!) I am so very very confused... :weep:
Uncle Meat 10-09-05, 08:35 PM	While it is true that the DM can change any rule he wants, the players are also free to abide by those changes. The "one level per encounter" rule seems quite reasonable. Sincerely, Uncle Meat :teach:
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 08:40 PM	While it is true that the DM can change any rule he wants, the players are also free to abide by those changes. No, they're required to abide by those changes. A DM would say, "There are no elves in my world, that's how it is." Not, "There are no elves in my world, so you guys are free to not make elves if you want."
Ogmug 10-09-05, 08:48 PM	I would treat it as a trap, and the max any 10 foot square of lava can be is a cr10 (immersion in lava does 20d6 per round, trap cr is 1 per every 2d6). That being said, you had to cross how far? 800 feet? that would be 80 cr 10s you would have defeated each cr 10 at 5th level would have netted you: 9000 exp. 80 x 9000 = 720K /shrug.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-09-05, 08:56 PM	I just thought of something...you said the lava was 8100 sq feet...and the bridge was 400 feet long... That means the lava pit was something like 400x20 feet... Why did the PCs go the long way?
Ogmug 10-09-05, 08:56 PM	no, it was more like huge, boiling, jetting pit of lava that was almost 8100 square feet. and the only way across was to make constant balance checks. provided the enemies didn't cut the rope bridges while they were crossing. and each rope bridge was almost 400 feet long, so no jumping either. Yeah, my own rule screwed me. Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. luckily, we just decided we were about level 15. That just leaves explaining it to the guy who missed the session. my character made the poor guy a +5 flaming greatsword to make up for it, though :) Additionally, your math is off. assuming your statement "each rope bridge" means more than one, and if each rope bridge was 400 feet long: that means the minimum length of your room was 800 feet long. This makes the width of the room 10'? (800 feet x 10 feet = 8000 square feet.) 8100 feet would equate to 90 x 90 pool of lava, meaning your ropes could not have been 400 feet. (this would also change the CR of the room to 9 cr 10s, or onloy 90k in exp.
Sorbeth 10-09-05, 09:11 PM	The bridge itself, I would think, would only be a CR 5 or so since that is about when a wizard can get fly. I would really like to know where this 8^13 xp comes from. For a party of 4 5th level folks it would put them at level 16,579. Which is just plain madness. edit: Ogmug, I didn't see your post about the CR for traps. Neat.
Bud Green 10-09-05, 10:08 PM	This thread is evidence that no formula for XPs makes a suitable replacement for simple common sense.
nissir2000 10-09-05, 10:21 PM	So...what kind of balance check is needed to get 10 levels in 15 minutes? Best I can figure a rope bridge is only a balance check of around 10, considering you have something to hold onto on both sides. Or you could just go straight RAW and since the rope is less then 2 inches thick that is a balance check of 20, plus any circumstance modifiers. Even a balance check of 10 is hard to do at level 5 40 times in a row with a naked character unless you are a rogue of some sort. Pick up that rock...you gain a level and 10 bagaillion GP! Oh and Elminster says your underwear are freshly ironed as you requested.
Brashnir 10-10-05, 12:43 AM	no, it was more like huge, boiling, jetting pit of lava that was almost 8100 square feet. and the only way across was to make constant balance checks. provided the enemies didn't cut the rope bridges while they were crossing. and each rope bridge was almost 400 feet long, so no jumping either. Yeah, my own rule screwed me. Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. luckily, we just decided we were about level 15. That just leaves explaining it to the guy who missed the session. my character made the poor guy a +5 flaming greatsword to make up for it, though :) You just give characters 10 levels for making a couple balance checks? Oh, I see. You've got your own character in the campaign. It all comes clear. You're quite possibly the worst DM in the history of D&D. Congratulations.
Zodan 10-10-05, 01:27 AM	Ehhhh, I don't think he qualifies as the worst in history :embarrass But, I will say I don't think 10 levels is proper for such a feat. Remember, gaining a level reflects advancement in abilities, skills, characteristics, etc. And just making it across a lava pit wouldn't accomplish that. Put yourself in the position. *finally steps onto other side of lava pit* "Ah! Ok. So. I've made it across that lava pit. How do I feel? Can I swing a sword any better? Can I cast any more spells? Hmm, no. But I sure am confident about my balancing abilities!!!"
prettyripples 10-10-05, 03:44 AM	For all those people trying to analyse thebalancinghamster's formula for the lava pit, I'd like to point out that that post sounded heavily sarcastic. I suspect for some reason he's just not telling us what lava is (maybe a campaign module?), and he plucked the numbers in the second post out of thin air. Of course, if he now comes back and tells me he was serious, I'll happily side with Brashnir.
Gilean 10-10-05, 11:06 AM	DM can change any rule he wants. Sorry.True, but it is common courtesy to reveal all relevant houserules.
VirgilCaine 10-10-05, 11:22 AM	You just give characters 10 levels for making a couple balance checks? Oh, I see. You've got your own character in the campaign. It all comes clear. You're quite possibly the worst DM in the history of D&D. Congratulations. Ditto that.
ramzafft1 10-10-05, 11:49 AM	NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER get rid of the rule of no more than 1 level per encounter! You will end up with epic level pcs faster than you can shake a stick at, and POOF! another $35 down the drain for the Epic Level Handbook. Trust me, it happened to me once. Don't let it happen to you! WE MUST INFORM THE MASSES TO SAVE THEM MONEY!!!
Lazzmaniandevil 10-10-05, 11:56 AM	The method for givinp XP after balance checks is really broken... I mean I once played a funambulist who went from 1st level to deity in about 30 seconds.... [/irony]
Bane 10-10-05, 01:00 PM	Lets just think about the line that says that experience for CRs more than 8 above the average party level were do to extreme circumstances, and probably should not reap the full xp award. You walked across 800 ft of lava. The extreme circumstance is that you had a bridge. Good bye experience. Lets say that the creatures on the other side of the lava were the challenge. Assuming the creatures never cut the ropes, the lava isn't really much of a factor. Unless you looked in the DMG II, and used the rules for damage from superheated air above lava. In which case, the characters probably fell unconscious from subdual damage, and fell into the lava. Where they died. No XP.
Shaken, not Stunned 10-10-05, 03:45 PM	Lets just think about the line that says that experience for CRs more than 8 above the average party level were do to extreme circumstances, and probably should not reap the full xp award. You walked across 800 ft of lava. The extreme circumstance is that you had a bridge. Good bye experience. Lets say that the creatures on the other side of the lava were the challenge. Assuming the creatures never cut the ropes, the lava isn't really much of a factor. Unless you looked in the DMG II, and used the rules for damage from superheated air above lava. In which case, the characters probably fell unconscious from subdual damage, and fell into the lava. Where they died. No XP. If I had a sig, that would be in it.
Bryarr 10-10-05, 08:29 PM	Agreed. Winner is Bane. Bry
Cyra 10-10-05, 09:15 PM	Every once in a while, a post will come round that warms my soul. This is not one of those posts. This is one of the posts that make me fear for the education system in america today. It's posts like these that make me think- "maybe we should expand the criteria for getting into special aid classes." Fear the Invincible Moron.
Shaken, not Stunned 10-10-05, 09:43 PM	That was unnecessarily harsh, I think.
Cyra 10-10-05, 10:00 PM	yeah, your right. I'm sorry.
Laranis Callirr 10-11-05, 01:32 PM	You guys hear the one about the party who made it to God-hood by walking around a patch of poison ivy?
The Shaman 10-11-05, 02:28 PM	Seems that math skills aren't the only issue here...:twitch:
rkr1970 10-11-05, 03:37 PM	(approx. a CL 24 encounter with the monsters and the lava)Do you mean a EL 24 encounter? Then that's all they get. XP for EL 24. The rest of this sounds like bad DMing or a game that's played out for stroke value and doesn't really need dice.
Karelzarath 10-11-05, 04:18 PM	well...heh heh, my players bypassed lava at 5th level. Well, the short answer is that they don't get any XP for "bypassed" encounters, so they're all still level 5. To expand upon this, if the PCs entered a vast labrynth and turned right, thus arriving at the castle of the Goblin King without battling any of his vast army of minions, would you still grant them the XP for it? No, chances are you wouldn't. Similarly, they should get no XP from the bypassed lava. And, really, the "vast field of lava" is, at best, only a big CR 10 trap anyway.
rkr1970 10-11-05, 04:56 PM	...if the PCs entered a vast labrynth and turned right, thus arriving at the castle of the Goblin King without battling any of his vast army of minions, would you still grant them the XP for it? Don't go that way! Never go that way. If she'd have gone that way, she'd gone straight to that castle. :mymy:
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-11-05, 04:59 PM	i meant got through. and cyra, you are a dribbling imbecile. i hope you can take your puny excuse for a opinion, and shove it up your- sorry, gotta go.
Simetrical 10-11-05, 06:18 PM	I would really like to know where this 8^13 xp comes from. For a party of 4 5th level folks it would put them at level 16,579.Where do you get that number? Using x = 500L(L – 1), you only need 137,423,331,000 XP to reach level 16,579, and 813 = 549,755,813,888 (as previously stated). I can't figure out how to isolate L as a function of x, annoyingly, but with some easy guesswork (approximating L(L – 1) as L², which is about the same at such high numbers, thus L ≈ √x/500) I get 33,158 as the level, which checks out as requiring 549,709,903,000 XP. Of course, either one is sufficient to eat the planes for breakfast. Which is kinda the point of the level-gain-limiting rules. This thread is evidence that no formula for XPs makes a suitable replacement for simple common sense.Actually, it's only evidence that completely ignoring the two most fundamental insane-XP-gain-limiters in the rules, and generally making up your own rules without much thought into possible consequences and then backtracking when they blow up in your face, is not a good idea. You just give characters 10 levels for making a couple balance checks? Oh, I see. You've got your own character in the campaign. It all comes clear. You're quite possibly the worst DM in the history of D&D. Congratulations.You D&D rules people are a lot less polite than MTG rules people, I must say.
Sorbeth 10-11-05, 09:03 PM	I was assuming the 8^13th XP was going to be divided between 4 PCs.
Ibbins 10-11-05, 09:38 PM	I can't figure out how to isolate L as a function of x, annoyingly, I got it. It's L = 1/2 + sqrt(x+125)/(10sqrt(5)) Derived it based on the derviation of the quadratic equation; see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_equation#Derivation) for an idea... This means, starting at level 5, you're now at level 33159 (with some leftover xp for making items ;) ). with some easy guesswork (approximating L(L – 1) as L², which is about the same at such high numbers, thus L ≈ √x/500) I get 33,158 as the level Well. I just wasted a lot of time. Except that I just realized that Wikipedia retaught me everything I learned in math class last year... sweet. Gotta luv it.
Shaken, not Stunned 10-11-05, 10:26 PM	Yea, wikipedia is a lot like the hitch hiker's guide. Accepting it is, ya' know, usually accurate.
SwiftFox 10-12-05, 12:21 AM	Look, the OP clearly doesnt know how XP rewards are supposed to work, so why doesnt someone try and explain it to him properly instead of berating him? Its really quite simple : XP rewards should be proportional to the challenge that was overcome... if you bypass a challenge rather than actually defeat it, you dont get ANY XP. If you find a castle inhabited by 1000 ogres, and sneak past it rather than slaughter all the ogres inside, guess what : you dont earn XP for having defeated the ogres, but you might get a small reward if it was an encounter that could be bypassed without detracting from the adventure's plot.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 12:52 AM	Look, the OP clearly doesnt know how XP rewards are supposed to work, so why doesnt someone try and explain it to him properly instead of berating him? Its really quite simple : XP rewards should be proportional to the challenge that was overcome... if you bypass a challenge rather than actually defeat it, you dont get ANY XP. If you find a castle inhabited by 1000 ogres, and sneak past it rather than slaughter all the ogres inside, guess what : you dont earn XP for having defeated the ogres, but you might get a small reward if it was an encounter that could be bypassed without detracting from the adventure's plot. On the other hand, if you sneak in, steal the treasure, and sneak out without a single ogre knowing you were there, you get credit for the ogres, just as if you defeated them. That's overcoming an obstacle and carries the same rewards as defeating an enemy. This situation is more akin to being handed a map to a trapped passage, complete with instructions on how to bypass the traps. There's no challenge or risk if you follow the map's instructions, so no XP. If you didn't have the map, and the rogue was able to bypass all the traps anyway, not setting any of them off, then the XP is awarded because the rogue had the challenge of finding and disabling all the traps, risking his own neck to do so. (On an aside, if the rest of the party waited 50 feet down the corridor while the rogue did this, the rogue should get all of the XP as he was the only one at risk.) It's a question of how much challenge and risk was involved. Crossing a bridge over lava that requires a Balance check is a single challenge, regardless of how many checks are involved. The CR goes up for higher DCs or more checks, but it's still one challenge. The monsters are another, separate challenge. They have their own CR. By combining the CRs, say a CR 12 and a CR 7, you'll see that they work out to a CR 13 or 14. And any DM who feels that even a CR 12 is appropriate for a 5th level party should turn in his dice!
guru7892 10-12-05, 12:59 AM	None of that explains where the 8 comes from, or where you get it drawn out to the 13th power. you don't answer the question the people ask, you answer the question you wished they asked. they teach you this WA, DC.
SwiftFox 10-12-05, 01:05 AM	On the other hand, if you sneak in, steal the treasure, and sneak out without a single ogre knowing you were there, you get credit for the ogres, just as if you defeated them. That's overcoming an obstacle and carries the same rewards as defeating an enemy.WRONG. Those ogres were assigned CRs based on the assumption that they would have to be defeated in combat... all monsters are. Youve just given another example of BYPASSING them, essentially avoiding the 'challenge' aspect of 'challenge rating'. Your reward in that example would be the treasure you gained, and probably a token XP reward, but you woul not get the same XP reward as if you had personally defeated 1000 ogres in melee combat :P Encounters that pose a high risk of players ending up dumped into lava ARENT appropriate for low-level PCs... which doesnt mean they should never encounter lava pits, there just shouldnt be much chance of them falling in, and the CR of the lava should be reduced to reflect that. If you dont understand how the XP reward system works, you probably shouldnt be sitting in the DM chair... that being said, im not trying to discourage any novice DMs, just to encourage humility.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 01:26 AM	WRONG. Those ogres were assigned CRs based on the assumption that they would have to be defeated in combat... all monsters are. Youve just given another example of BYPASSING them, essentially avoiding the 'challenge' aspect of 'challenge rating'. Your reward in that example would be the treasure you gained, and probably a token XP reward, but you woul not get the same XP reward as if you had personally defeated 1000 ogres in melee combat :P Encounters that pose a high risk of players ending up dumped into lava ARENT appropriate for low-level PCs... which doesnt mean they should never encounter lava pits, there just shouldnt be much chance of them falling in, and the CR of the lava should be reduced to reflect that. If you dont understand how the XP reward system works, you probably shouldnt be sitting in the DM chair... that being said, im not trying to discourage any novice DMs, just to encourage humility. Ahhhem... :devil: Page 36 of the DMG, bottom of second column.. "A Challenge rating is a measure of how easy or difficult a monster or trap is to overcome" Not beat, not kill, not defeat... OVERCOME! That is the key to awarding XP! Overcoming challenges, not killing monsters. Page 37 of the DMG, top of first column... "Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping minotaur to get into the magical vault - did they over come the minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes." Therefore sneaking past 1000 ogres to steal a treasure probably falls under the same YES!!! The character who talks the dragon out of eating him gets at least as many XP, if not more, than the one who just killed the dragon!!! Token XP are for RPing, not finding a way to stay alive while accomplishing your main goal. Who doesn't understand how the XP system works, again? :pbbbtt:
SwiftFox 10-12-05, 04:09 AM	Ahhhem... :devil: Page 36 of the DMG, bottom of second column.. "A Challenge rating is a measure of how easy or difficult a monster or trap is to overcome" Not beat, not kill, not defeat... OVERCOME! That is the key to awarding XP! Overcoming challenges, not killing monsters. Page 37 of the DMG, top of first column... "Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping minotaur to get into the magical vault - did they over come the minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes." Therefore sneaking past 1000 ogres to steal a treasure probably falls under the same YES!!! The character who talks the dragon out of eating him gets at least as many XP, if not more, than the one who just killed the dragon!!! Token XP are for RPing, not finding a way to stay alive while accomplishing your main goal. Who doesn't understand how the XP system works, again? :pbbbtt:Its still you. Ogres and minotaurs are not given CRs based on their observational abilities, but on their prowess in combat... a CR 3 ogre has exactly the same spot and listen checks as a CR 1/4 kobold : sucessfully sneaking past an ogre is no more challenge than sneaking past a kobold. Any DM worth his salt will adjust XP rewards to reflect this. If aquiring the treasure guarded by the ogres was a quest goal, its true there would be a flat XP reward regardless of how it was accomplished, but if you didnt slay a single ogre, you wouldnt earn a single point of XP as though you had done so. XP is after all the abbreviation of the word eXPerience... as character gain experience and levels, their skill in combat improves... how can you justify say, a fighter, getting better at combat without constantly defeating opponents in combat? how does a wizard who simply casts improved invisibility and silence on himself to sneak past foes improve his understanding and power at wielding magic? It sounds like youre using a system of determining XP rewards which is not only distinct from the established D&D one, but completely illogical to boot. If XP gain in roleplaying games worked the way you think it does, they'd all go down like THIS (http://www.supermegatopia.com/meshworld/gallery/trilogy.htm).
Sapp 10-12-05, 04:51 AM	Look, the OP clearly doesnt know how XP rewards are supposed to work, so why doesnt someone try and explain it to him properly instead of berating him?Believe it or not, some people have tried. DM can change any rule he wants. Sorry.It doesn't look like he wants their advice.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 10:30 AM	... how can you justify say, a fighter, getting better at combat without constantly defeating opponents in combat? how does a wizard who simply casts improved invisibility and silence on himself to sneak past foes improve his understanding and power at wielding magic? It sounds like youre using a system of determining XP rewards which is not only distinct from the established D&D one, but completely illogical to boot. The established D&D method of XP? How established does it need to be? Every DMG, 1st, 2nd, 3.0, & 3.5 editions, have given examples of getting XP in this manner. But, they now offer less XP for minimal risk challenges to higher level characters. If a mage, of sufficient level to cast greater invisibility enough times to get in and get out (at 1 round/level, let's say 6 times, minimum), faced those ogres in combat, with his party, who would also be at least 10th level, minimum level for an 18 Cha sorcerer to cast six 4th level spells (a wizard would have to be 13th level with an Int of 26 or need some scrolls), they wouldn't get a ton of XP anyway! After about 20 or so Ogres, the CR would level out for them right around CR 13 (DMG page 39). These monsters just aren't that much of a challenge for mid to high level characters. Especially for a sorcerer who apparently specializes in stealth. As for what XP is, it's the improvement of one's OVERALL SKILL SET, not just "Duh, I can swing a sword better." Read page 36 of the DMG. "Experience points are a measure of accomplishment. They represent training and learning by doing." This is why characters gain XP for disabling a trap. This is why WotC, Dungeon Magazine, and RPGA adventures offer XP for many non-combat encounters. This is also why 3.0 & 3.5 no longer award specific XP to players for slaying specific monsters. A 12th level fighter should get no XP for defeating one skeleton. I know, I know... "But he killed it, he gets the XP." Nope! It wasn't a challenge. Challenge, not combat ability of one's foes, determines XP. No risk, no challenge. No challenge, no XP. Period! That's why sneaking past 1000 ogres earns XP as though you defeated them. You have to roll a new check for each group you pass. Every single ogre rolls their opposed checks. Assuming that the ogres are in groups of 10, that's 200 good rolls (1 Hide and 1 Move Silently for you against each group) vs. 2000 poor ones (1 Spot and 1 Listen for each ogre). Then you take the treasure, and after 2200 more rolls, get to go spend it. Screw up ONE ROLL, and you have to fight your way out, even if it's the vary last roll of the 4400 (and guess what, you don't get XP for them twice, because it's all the same "encounter", so you just wasted 4399 rolls). The risk of failing a single opposed check is that you have to fight 1000 ogres. By succeeding at them all, you've over come that risk. It's plain and simple. By your logic, a thief who never fights anyone on his daily cat burglar run shouldn't get more than a token bit of XP regardless of how much he steals or where he steals it from, because he hasn't had an opportunity to sneak attack anyone. But a wizard who only uses magic missile for 5 levels, never casting another spell, gets full credit because it was in a fight, and therefore he has a better understanding of the vagarities of thurmaturgy? Bah! He'd improve his understanding more by locking himself up in a tower and studying for a century or two, not by going around casting spells he already knows! That's why the XP system is first of all an esoteric measure of a person's life experiences and secondly based on the challenges and risks faced by an individual. It's the reason you don't see a ton of 20th level farmers in the game. Even though they go out and perform their daily chores, getting better at what they do everyday, and they're slaughtering animals that range from a CR 1/20 chicken up to a CR 2 cow, they get no XP for this. Ask around. DMs have given full XP since The Old White Box for getting past a monster by sword, spell, stealth, bluff, or any nearly other means that offers a risk of failure and death. To do otherwise is cheating the players out of their reward for playing the game well.
Bladed Thesis 10-12-05, 10:51 AM	You can get experience from avoiding encounters, yes. But you should not get the same amount of experience as if you had slain them. "Hey, us 1st level characters successfully ran from the dragon. We get 100k experience!" NO. And jumping multiple levels from surviving an encounter with a lava pit is just plain silly, even if you disregard the rule of only 1 level max gained per encounter. Common sense, folks.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 11:01 AM	You can get experience from avoiding encounters, yes. But you should not get the same amount of experience as if you had slain them. "Hey, us 1st level characters successfully ran from the dragon. We get 100k experience!" NO. And jumping multiple levels from surviving an encounter with a lava pit is just plain silly, even if you disregard the rule of only 1 level max gained per encounter. Common sense, folks. Ah, but running from a challenge isn't overcoming it, is it? I believe 1/10 XP is the correct amount for running from a challenge...
Bladed Thesis 10-12-05, 11:09 AM	I see "running from an encounter" and "sneaking past an encounter" as being equivalent. Let's see by example: A rogue and a fighter enter the room (which is heavily shadowed) with the ogres. The rogue moves silently and hides in shadows. The fighter obviously doesn't and begins attacking the ogres. The rogue sneaks over to the locked door on the other side of the room and picks it open and slips through. The fighter, before killing a single ogre, sees the open door, withdraws, and runs through the door. At which point the rogue shuts and relocks the door. In the example above, the rogue was never seen and snuck past the ogres. The fighter fought for a round or two and then ran from them. Both get a bit of XP for successfully "overcoming" the challenge. But this method of "overcoming" is very different than slaying all the ogres. Thus a good DM will give them partial XP for the encounter.
Telis_the_Deadeye 10-12-05, 11:10 AM	Ah, but running from a challenge isn't overcoming it, is it? I believe 1/10 XP is the correct amount for running from a challenge... That always ****** me off when the Dms would do that. If we almost killed the dragon, and then had to run, we got screwed. It was in 2nd ed DMG that it says reward players for living through an encounter even if they fail in it. If players only sneak past a few ogres, wouldn't they get xp for all of them because if one sees them then they have to fight them all? My old Dm would say no! You get xp for the ones you sneaked past. But the danger is there to fight tham all.
Fizziii 10-12-05, 11:14 AM	Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you make a balance check every 10 feet or so? If this is correct, then how on earth did you end up with 4(?) characters successfully making balance checks 40 times each? Assuming that everyone (highly unlikely) had balance as a class skill and maxed ranks, at 5th level, they would've had +8 to their rolls (barring racial & magical item modifiers). Even with a DC of 10, they'd still have a 5% chance of falling... or roughly twice while crossing.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 11:18 AM	I see "running from an encounter" and "sneaking past an encounter" as being equivalent. Let's see by example: A rogue and a fighter enter the room (which is heavily shadowed) with the ogres. The rogue moves silently and hides in shadows. The fighter obviously doesn't and begins attacking the ogres. The rogue sneaks over to the locked door on the other side of the room and picks it open and slips through. The fighter, before killing a single ogre, sees the open door, withdraws, and runs through the door. At which point the rogue shuts and relocks the door. In the example above, the rogue was never seen and snuck past the ogres. The fighter fought for a round or two and then ran from them. Both get a bit of XP for successfully "overcoming" the challenge. But this method of "overcoming" is very different than slaying all the ogres. Thus a good DM will give them partial XP for the encounter. I would wait to see what happens when the other 990 ogres are alerted and the PCs have to deal with them as well. That's why you should wait until an adventure is over to reward XP. Also, if the goal is to get past the ogres by any means neccessary, then Yes, I would award full XP. There is a subtle difference in running from monsters to get closer to your goal with a minimum of hastle and running from monsters to save your skin. In your exapmle, the fighter isn't running FROM the ogres, he's running PAST the ogres, if that makes sense... That always ****** me off when the Dms would do that. If we almost killed the dragon, and then had to run, we got screwed. It was in 2nd ed DMG that it says reward players for living through an encounter even if they fail in it. If players only sneak past a few ogres, wouldn't they get xp for all of them because if one sees them then they have to fight them all? My old Dm would say no! You get xp for the ones you sneaked past. But the danger is there to fight tham all. You only get XP for the ones you snuck past. The others were a "conditional" threat. They aren't a risk unless you fail at sneaking.
Psychoticpsymon 10-12-05, 11:22 AM	This comes down to a single jerk completely ruining a D&D experience. If you ever worried about a group of people learning D&D from something- this would be it. His entire game is screwed up. Just let him stew in it, he's obviously just here to cause problems because anyone with enough intelligence to DM has a calculator on the computer he's using and understands the concept of powers. IMHO, either he's a kid who doesn't know what he's doing but has played diablo2 long enough to get 20 levels in a single Baal run and doesn't "get" D&D to begin with, or he's just a normal poster trying to get everyone riled up about a noob dm question. I see "running from an encounter" and "sneaking past an encounter" as being equivalent. That is the most ridiculous thing I've read excluding most of this thread.
Bladed Thesis 10-12-05, 11:29 AM	That is the most ridiculous thing I've read excluding most of this thread. Not when applied to the example that I gave, in which they are completely equivalent given the situation.
SwiftFox 10-12-05, 12:11 PM	Again, this comes down to the predicatble scenario of : DM : You spot a red dragon in the distance, it is heading your way. PC : I dive into the undergrowth and hide! DM : The dragon passes overhead without noticing you. Congratulations, you have defeated the dragon! XP for everyone! Likewise, I cant see a scenario where a rogue sneaks past 1000 ogres to get at a treasure actually working unless the rogue has some unfair advantage, entirely removing the challenge from the situation... realsticly, in a castle containing 1000 ogres, a rogue can get to one place in the castle without having to slip by every singe ogre... he'd probably have to only sneak past a dozen, tops. As stated, an ogre doesnt have a great spot/listen... only +2, same as a kobold. so, a rogue with +21 in both hide and move silently can remain undetected by all ogres simply by sticking to the shadows/cover/etc... he doesnt even need to roll a dice. Wheras, if a party of adventurers led a frontal assualt on the castle, and hunted down every last ogre in the place, they would have unquestionably earned their XP for defeating all the ogres... who are a CR 3 for combat purposes, but no more than a CR 1/4 for stealth purposes, and no CR at all if a player fails to engage them. Your kind of thinking is what comes from interpreting 'overcome' and 'defeated' too liberally... by that reasoning, I could challenge a lvl 20 fighter to a game of chess, win, and therby claim XP for defeating a CR 20 creature... pure nonsense. Players dont get XP for running from encounters. They dont get XP for avoiding confrontations. If they apply creative thinking to overcome a challenge indirectly, they might deserve a token XP reward... if they bypass an encounter in the furtherance of another goal, their reward comes not in XP, but in the form of achieving that goal. So yeah, if your rogue want to sneak past foes, grab the treasure and sneak back out, his reward is both the treasure and continued good health, but not XP, because however challenging pulling that off might have been, it was obviously less challenging than facing the ogre head-on, otherwise thats what he would have done.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 12:48 PM	DM : You spot a red dragon in the distance, it is heading your way. PC : I dive into the undergrowth and hide! DM : The dragon passes overhead without noticing you. Congratulations, you have defeated the dragon! XP for everyone!They didn't overcome a challenge, they avoided it altogether. Unless the dragon is salient to the completion of their goal, there is nothing to reward.Likewise, I cant see a scenario where a rogue sneaks past 1000 ogres to get at a treasure actually working unless the rogue has some unfair advantage, entirely removing the challenge from the situation... realsticly, in a castle containing 1000 ogres, a rogue can get to one place in the castle without having to slip by every singe ogre... he'd probably have to only sneak past a dozen, tops. As stated, an ogre doesnt have a great spot/listen... only +2, same as a kobold. so, a rogue with +21 in both hide and move silently can remain undetected by all ogres simply by sticking to the shadows/cover/etc... he doesnt even need to roll a dice. And therefore imposses no risk... Gaining no XP. Try to follow the logic here.Wheras, if a party of adventurers led a frontal assualt on the castle, and hunted down every last ogre in the place, they would have unquestionably earned their XP for defeating all the ogres... who are a CR 3 for combat purposes, but no more than a CR 1/4 for stealth purposes, and no CR at all if a player fails to engage them.They are a CR 3, regardless of how they are handled. Therefore, any party that can slaughter 1000 of them in a single combat would probably get nothing anyway. Your kind of thinking is what comes from interpreting 'overcome' and 'defeated' too liberally... by that reasoning, I could challenge a lvl 20 fighter to a game of chess, win, and therby claim XP for defeating a CR 20 creature... pure nonsense.And what risk was there in the chess game? Is a chess game against a 20th level fighter with an Int of 12 more of a challenge than a game against a 1st level wizard with an Int of 18? Is the risk higher? XP is given out for overcoming a challenge, and the amount is determind by risk and difficulty inherent in that challenge. Any DM who can't see that needs to hang up their dice! Players dont get XP for running from encounters. They dont get XP for avoiding confrontations. If they apply creative thinking to overcome a challenge indirectly, they might deserve a token XP reward... if they bypass an encounter in the furtherance of another goal, their reward comes not in XP, but in the form of achieving that goal. If you fought a dragon for 10 rounds and then had to run, you didn't learn from that experience? If you convince the troll to let you over his bridge instead of eating you, you only get a token because the troll is still alive? By this pattern of logic, a rogue who disables a trap gets a token XP bonus for it, even though the trap has a CR just like a monster. Are you the type who only uses the CR to figure out what's the right trap for a party of a certain level? Read the top of page 39 in the DMG. Players get XP even if they set off a trap and survive it. So yeah, if your rogue want to sneak past foes, grab the treasure and sneak back out, his reward is both the treasure and continued good health, but not XP, because however challenging pulling that off might have been, it was obviously less challenging than facing the ogre head-on, otherwise thats what he would have done.It's less challenging to go unseen past a thousand guards? That would explain why ninja don't start training until 2 or 3 years old! What they do isn't that hard. Got it! The whole point is that the objective is to get the treasure. The challenge is that it has 1000 ogres guarding it. The XP should be roughly the same regardless of how you did it. An illusion of a dragon flying by might scare them off. They're not dead, so do you give XP for it? A series of thunderclaps outside might cause a distraction. Do you give less experience because the Spot and Listen checks suffered a -5? A challenge is anything that impedes the completion of the task at hand. Overcoming that challenge, by any means at your disposal, earns full credit for having done so. It's simple, straight forward logic. Don't beleive me? Try reading the DMG.
Telis_the_Deadeye 10-12-05, 01:00 PM	By this pattern of logic, a rogue who disables a trap gets a token XP bonus for it, even though the trap has a CR just like a monster. Are you the type who only uses the CR to figure out what's the right trap for a party of a certain level? Read the top of page 39 in the DMG. Players get XP even if they set off a trap and survive it. Your right. Its there. players get xp for any trap they face. My DMs an ass! He never gave xp for living through a trap. and gave only a little for beating it. I'm gonna throw this in his face! Your logic makes sense. Challenge x risk = XP. No challenge or no risk, no xp. Swiftfoxs thing of spot & listen being +2 shouldn't mean squat. There is less risk from kobalds anyway. The danger is higher for sneaking by a oger that a kobald. And Rkr keeps showing Dmg examples to prove he knows what he's talking about. Swift needs to also or else he needs to admit he's wrong because reading the Dmg makes it look like Rkr is right. Swift show some examples to please.
Bane 10-12-05, 01:23 PM	In the situation of a party of level 1s running from the dragon, I would have to say that surviving the dragon's wrath is an incredibly difficult challenge. If you look at this from the stance of "surviving is the hard part," you have just overcome the challenge. And it was hard as hell, because red dragons are very good at killing. I would give a hefty XP bonus.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 01:28 PM	In the situation of a party of level 1s running from the dragon, I would have to say that surviving the dragon's wrath is an incredibly difficult challenge. If you look at this from the stance of "surviving is the hard part," you have just overcome the challenge. And it was hard as hell, because red dragons are very good at killing. I would give a hefty XP bonus. Excellent point! Of course, it depends on how far off the dragon was to begin with. The other question would have to be "Why is a DM throwing a red dragon at a 1st level party?" But yes, under many circumstances, the XP is definitely warranted.
Vecna_lord_of_Secrets 10-12-05, 02:40 PM	ignore this post
Telis_the_Deadeye 10-12-05, 03:20 PM	I'll bet Bane and Rkr RoXx0r as Dms. Do you give bonus xp for good RPing?
rkr1970 10-12-05, 03:26 PM	I'll bet Bane and Rkr RoXx0r as Dms. Do you give bonus xp for good RPing? I always reward good role-playing, but not always with XP. It's handled on a case-by-case-basis.
feartheinvinceblehamster 10-12-05, 04:49 PM	Believe it or not, some people have tried. It doesn't look like he wants their advice. i fixed your name for you
Sapp 10-12-05, 05:24 PM	@ rkr1970 Are you remembering to apply mitigating factors to challenges? Sneaking past a sleeping ogre is obviously less challenging than sneaking past one that's awake. If your players snuck past one that was awake, I could see why you'd award a decent amount of XP (perhaps even as much XP as they should get if they fought and defeated the ogre in combat). A sleeping ogre does present less risk (I oblige you to apply some Bayesian inference to this). The DMG does cover mitigating factors (and hints that no set of absolute rules for these exist. Common sense does kick in at some point).
Radin Of The Justice 10-12-05, 05:27 PM	wow feartheinvinceblehamster that sure was taking the moral high ground*please read a sarcastic*. i have to agree, for the players apparent luck id give them a little something to make them happy for the next few sessions but nothing as extreme as a level. and by the way i have to agree with the person you quoted, you asked for their advice, they gave it to you, and in a way you threw it back in there faces by not just saying thanks, but apperently changing the situation by not stating youre house rules in the first post. but hey thats just my opinion. :pumpkin: :chicken:
rkr1970 10-12-05, 05:59 PM	@ rkr1970 Are you remembering to apply mitigating factors to challenges? Sneaking past a sleeping ogre is obviously less challenging than sneaking past one that's awake. If your players snuck past one that was awake, I could see why you'd award a decent amount of XP (perhaps even as much XP as they should get if they fought and defeated the ogre in combat). A sleeping ogre does present less risk (I oblige you to apply some Bayesian inference to this). The DMG does cover mitigating factors (and hints that no set of absolute rules for these exist. Common sense does kick in at some point). If MY players didn't coup de grace every sleeping ogre they came across, I'd demand the pod people leave at once! And whether they snuck by or CdG'ed it, the XP would be less. I feel a sleeping foe is usually worth 1/3 of an alert foe (no spot check, -10 to listen, and basically helpless to keep them from CdG'ing it). If you wanted a BIG reward in that situation, be a paladin and wake the ogre up first and challenge it to single combat (like in OOTS)! THAT I would reward!!! :D I absolutely use mitigating factors. Attacking an enemy from a position of relative safty, like shooting down orcs from atop the battlements, seriously reduces your XP. On the other hand, I reward players who MAKE those factors for themselves. I once had a player who used magic to create overcast conditions at night to improve his hide-in-shadows rolls, then cast silence on a shuriken and tossed it next to a guard. He got more XP than he would have gotten just killing the guard or climbing the wall.
Sapp 10-12-05, 06:10 PM	I'd give Miko a little extra. What she pulled was crafty. Also, her words were convincing, "I meant every word I said... it was merely ALSO a way to gather the ogres..." Yeah, whatever, she should become a lawyer. I absolutely use mitigating factors. Attacking an enemy from a position of relative safty, like shooting down orcs from atop the battlements, seriously reduces your XP. On the other hand, I reward players who MAKE those factors for themselves.I think that goes without saying. Otherwise, I wouldn't get full XP for putting an enemy to sleep (or dominating them) before killing them. Player: "I cast sleep on them!" DM: "Ok, they are asleep." Player: "Coup de Grace!" DM: "You get 1/3 XP for killing sleeping foes." Player: "..."
Shaken, not Stunned 10-12-05, 07:10 PM	It depends on the goal. If the ogres are gaurding something and the PCs are trying to get it, sneaking past should result in XP for defeating the ogres. If the ogres arethe objective, then it makes no sense. I look at it as exploiting the target's weakness. Like grappling a halfling wizard. It is true they didn't really fight a halfling wizard if they grappled him, but you would still award XP for the defeat of a halfling of his CR because to do otherwise is to punish the players for thinking tactically. You wouldn't give them extra expereince if they bolstered the ogres with buff spells before the fight, would you? Then you should not dock the EXP for exploiting the ogres weakness (their unimpressive intellects).
JD 10-12-05, 08:36 PM	I look at it as exploiting the target's weakness. Like grappling a halfling wizard. It is true they didn't really fight a halfling wizard if they grappled him, but you would still award XP for the defeat of a halfling of his CR because to do otherwise is to punish the players for thinking tactically. Um, is rasslin' not proper fighting any more? I know that the WWF isn't, but I'm pretty sure at some point in history wrestling was considered a true form of combat. I think the Greeks did it? N-naked?
Bane 10-12-05, 08:41 PM	Things like roleplaying and backstory do not garner extra experience in my games. However, if you have a backstory, I will use it. If you roleplay, you will get information, which is more valuable than platinum, and both of these will get you more action than the guys who say "tell me when it's my turn to attack". I have also increased roleplaying by tying almost every Prestige Class to an organization. If you aren't roleplaying, you can't join, and if you don't join, no one will teach you how to be an Arcane Trickster, or whatever special things you would like to be.
Cyra 10-12-05, 08:44 PM	i meant got through. and cyra, you are a dribbling imbecile. i hope you can take your puny excuse for a opinion, and shove it up your- sorry, gotta go. I'm the dribbling imbecile? Last time I looked, I'm not the one who A.) gave my PCs over a billion xp just for walking over a bridge over lava. Unless that lava was sentient and CR 3,000,000,000 there is no way that could warrant that kind of xp. B.) Allowed the PCs to gain more than one lvl in one sitting. And then, when caught on it, you gave us a trite "I can do whatever I want 'cause I'm the DM." You must be under 17, thats my guess only. Because your surely acting like it (not a slight to anyone under 17 and can act mature.) See, the difference between you and me is that I made a mistake in ridiculing you. I appologized for it (I kinda wish I hadn't though) You made a mistake on several levels, and your excuse? "I'm sorry, the DM can do whatever he wants"-to paraphrase a quote.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 08:46 PM	Um, is rasslin' not proper fighting any more? I know that the WWF isn't, but I'm pretty sure at some point in history wrestling was considered a true form of combat. I think the Greeks did it? N-naked? Anyone who gets that excited about naked halfling wrestling needs to stay faaar away from me... Ew!
Shaken, not Stunned 10-12-05, 08:52 PM	I mean that wrestling a halfling wizard is the equivelent of wrestling a commoner with poor feat choice, but you still get exp for killing a wizard. Sneaking past a group of ogres to accomplish a goal is a lot like running away, but you should still get exp because you accomplished the goal. In neither case did you actually take on the encounter, and in both cases you should exp.
Grizelda 10-12-05, 08:56 PM	no, it was more like huge, boiling, jetting pit of lava that was almost 8100 square feet. and the only way across was to make constant balance checks. provided the enemies didn't cut the rope bridges while they were crossing. and each rope bridge was almost 400 feet long, so no jumping either. Yeah, my own rule screwed me. Yeah, I should've looked at a vast pit of lava's EL. but i didn't. luckily, we just decided we were about level 15. That just leaves explaining it to the guy who missed the session. my character made the poor guy a +5 flaming greatsword to make up for it, though :) so basicallly you are telling me that your characters got 15 levels for walking across a rope bridge? that pit wasnt full of lava by the way it was piping hot TWINKIE filling. :rolleyes:
Lord Gwydion 10-12-05, 09:36 PM	How much XP would be awarded for level 5 PCs who made a series of balance checks to cross a rope bridge over cool, clean water? The lava in feartheinvinciblehamster's encounter was set dressing, unless one of the PCs fell in. In which case, at level 5, they are dead. If anyone fell in and died, then the PCs didn't manage to defeat the challenge posed by the lava. No XP for lava either way IMO. It was either completely irrelevant to the encounter other than to make it seem more cool, or it was sudden and instant death for any PC. Now, if the PCs actually had to risk the lava, and had some way not to be killed instantly by it, then I might give the group XP for a lava trap. ONE lava trap. Not a separate lava trap CR for every 10' square, or even every 10' square they passed over. ONE LAVA TRAP. But feartheinvinciblehamster, with all of his many many years of experience [please read the sarcasm here, he's admited to being pretty young in other threads], has wisely decided that as DM, he can do whatever he wants. Which leads to the big question: why even bother posting this question here? Eliminating rules that are there for a reason (one level per encounter max), and trying to squeeze every possible point of XP out of a dangerous situation (while your own DM PC is benefiting from this) when the challenge was much lower IS something you can do as a DM if you really want to (although it's not the mark of a very experienced DM). But then why post it on this board, where people who actually follow the rules are going to just tear it down, and then insult them for pointing out your mistakes?