Any tips with skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any tips with skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kage_Ryu
03-07-06, 06:00 PM I find I have troubles incorperating skills to the game, both in rping and battle. There are a few skills we use often but many are left out for various reasons. I'll detail the various groups below:

Unused Skills
Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Sleight of hand, Spellcraft, Swim, and Use Rop

These are all skills I have troubles incorperating in various circumstances and would like tips on how to use them - I've divided them into subcatagories below as to which areas I have the most troubles...

Player's Don't Use
Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Info, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Sleight of hand, Spellcraft, Use Rope.

My player's don't use these regardless of ranks being put into them. Any tips on how to get them to think outside the box?

NPC difficulty

Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive

When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will?

Campaign Building Difficulty

Appraise, Craft, Disable Device (Not just for traps, but for like wagon wheels and stuff), Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Survival, Use Rope.

Some of these I don't like and so I don't incorperate (Escape artist/Use Rope) how would I use those well/often?

Some of these are time consuming, how can I allow player's to use them without making everyone have to sit by and let time go by? (Craft, Perform, Profession)

When would I implement some of these skills/how? (Intimidate/Survival)

What's the best way to implement knowledge other than for basic stuff like monsters/local information (Local meaning the head hauncho, what's the best place to eat at, what monsters are around the area)? Such as Religion, Geography, etc.

And how would I let player's use handle animal often?

Thanks for the help ^_^
Rathje
03-07-06, 09:16 PM Players might be willing to use those skills more if you had some NPC's using them. Perhaps they'll encounter an enemy Ranger who catches them in rope-based traps, ties them up, then robs them. This shows them Use Rope (plus some sneaky stuff) and the use of Escape Artist. If they get Grappled, specifically ask them if they'd like to use Escape Artist to wriggle free.

I find Craft and Profession are rarely taken unless it has a purpose, like a poisonmaker. You could offer a free 1 skill point per level (x4 at level 1) for any Craft or Profession, just for flavour. I gave that to my PCs and one got a job as a scribe for the mayor, another cooked all their meals as a chef, and the third fixed all their damaged clothing as a tailor. The rancher didn't get much use of his skill, unfortunately.

Spellcraft can be shown through counterspelling opponents. I believe scroll-use takes Spellcraft.

For things like NPCs using Bluff, it takes a fair bit of trusting your players not to metagame. Roll the NPC's Bluff and the Players' Sense Motive behind a screen or something, then respond with some clever adjective use. Or just say "You're fairly certain he isn't lying" or "He looks like a nice guy."
DaMullet
03-07-06, 09:39 PM By the way, it's considered a VERY poor sign when the players have Diplomacy or Intimidate uysed gainst them.

They are skills for influencing NPC attitudes, not PC attitudes. Let them react as they will.
Stormranger
03-07-06, 09:41 PM Kage, I don't think you have to be particularly concerned if your players use certain skills less frequently than others - it's not as if the D&D police are going to come round with a checklist anytime.

The answer's pretty simple, though - if you want your players to use a skill, you'll have to give them a suitable opportunity to do so. If you want them use Handle Animal more frequently, make them encounter angry or panicked animals. If you want them to use Escape Artist, have them get captured and tied up. If you want them to use Use Rope, make it so that they're the ones who have to capture something and immobilise it. If you want them to use Decipher Script, have them intercept a coded message. I could go through the entire list, but I imagine the pattern's obvious.

Of course, if you mean that you want the players to use skills in a creative fashion on their own initiative (for instance, using Use Rope to lassoo and restrain an opponent in combat, using sleight of hand to conceal a hidden set of lockpicks after being captured, using Handle Animal to stampede a herd of wild horses through an orc camp, etc.), well, that's really up to them. You could encourage them by offering an XP reward for creative skill use, maybe.

When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will? First of all, when it comes to Bluff, roll (secretly) an opposed Sense Motive check for your PCs - if they succeed, tell them that they suspect that the NPC is lying. If they fail, either say nothing or tell them that it looks like the NPC is telling the truth. The reverse applies with Sense Motive - every time the PCs try to bluff someone, have the NPC roll an opposed Sense Motive check, and if it fails then the NPC believes the lie. It's more or less the same with Intimidate (except no opposed roll) - if the NPC makes his check, tell your players that it looks like the NPC isn't making idle threats and is genuinely capable of hurting them badly if they don't cooperate. With Diplomacy, tell your players that the NPC's offering them a good deal, that he looks trustworthy, that his proposal sounds reasonable etc. The trick is not to let the players know that you're rolling a skill check for the NPC - if you tell them something without it being obvious that the NPC is using a skill to influence them, quite frequently your players will accept it as truth. Of course, some times they'll still have a hard time believing an NPC's bluff or agreeing to his proposal, but you can still give them the impression that the NPC at least believes his own lie.

Some of these are time consuming, how can I allow player's to use them without making everyone have to sit by and let time go by? (Craft, Perform, Profession) Allow the rest of the party to do their own thing while the skill-using PC is occupied. If a bard PC wants to perform at a tavern, there's no rule that says the rest of the party has to sit around and watch him if they don't want to - tell them they can go and visit the market or talk to NPCs for information or go hunt some dinner or something. In fact, given that a bard performing in a tavern for a couple of hours (or equivalent - a warrior making a new sword with Craft, for instance) doesn't require much of your attention, you're free to do whatever you want with the rest of your players.

Rathje beat me to the punch, so I've repeated some of what he said. Hope it's useful, anyway.
Raum_ul_Amon
03-07-06, 09:54 PM I don't think that it's surprising that you're list of skills that you find difficult to integrate into an adventure are the very ones that your players don't use no matter how many skill ranks they have in them.

Social skills are my favorite, both as a player and as a DM. It takes a very skilled DM (which I am not yet) to integrate social skills into roleplay with powerful effect. I tend to play my D&D kinda like I live my life and as I've gotten older I realize how much I depend on my relationships with other people to aid me in accomplishing difficult goals and objectives.

Try not to lead your players by the nose when it comes to adventure hooks and such. Breath life into the NPCs that inhabit your world. Give them personal associations with institutions, agencies and other NPCs. Establish a habit of EXPECTING information, resources and benefits to arise out of your PCs relationships with others.

For example, take Gather Information. As a PC that puts points into this skill I expect it to be somewhat useful, and in the flat, generic CORE rules it is but it lacks immersion in the actual NPCs that populate a campaign world. What I usually do is I use Gather Information in it's basic form as is for when somebody is looking for generic and general information, something that a large number of people would know. If however they want to know something specific I use it as a means to point the person to someone who knows that information.

You wanna know if there's a thieves guild in town, no problem, a normal Gather Information roll of 10-15 DC and you are sure to find someone in the place that knows there is, or suspects there is. If you wanna know that nature of it, or who belongs to it then go talk to Vinny over there, he 'probably' knows more than I do. Depending on how your original Gather Information roll was I usually add a positive or negative circumstance adjustment for what comes next.

So, you meet Vinny, but Vinny, he don't like you or he's indifferent, not talkative or is really broke, needs a beer and thinks he can get some money from you for any information. This is where Diplomacy and the adjustment of NPC reactions becomes so important. Why not spend some time with him, buy him a beer and see if you can't move his basic view of you from indifferent to friendly or even helpful. If Vinny likes you, he's sure to give you the specific information you need or want. And if he REALLY likes you he might not even let his buddies in the Thieves Guild know that you were asking questions about them.

And really, what's to stop Vinny from just feeding you a line of BS? Even if he does like you, maybe he likes your gold even more? Here is where Bluff and Sense Motive become almost mandatory.

I ran a campaign in which I stated out front to my players that this is how I use social skills and that if they chose to not take these skills when available there would be consequences. About a month into the campaign one of the players came to me complaining bitterly about the lack of help that one key NPC was providing. He never seemed to have any relevant information to give, or if he did it was incomplete or didn't match the actual reality in some odd detail. The player eventually said to me, "It's like this guy doesn't even want to help us succeed, heck he isn't acting friendly or helpful at all his information usually gets us into trouble." And then the light came on and as he talked he put it together as I had intended. This guy was not their friend, he was using them for his own selfish ends but the players had never once used Sense Motive or tested the validity of what he was saying.

This is one example that is only possible in a campaign where the information, resources and or benefits that are necessary for the PCs to succeed reside firmly with NPCs. If a DM just simply doles out these valuable commodities to the PCs without first grounding them within the context of their NPCs then the players will see no benefit in pursuing social and other non-combat skills. Do this for too long and the players form sloppy habits which really, IMO reduces the immersion and enjoyment of the 'roleplay' part of D&D.
revnk
03-07-06, 10:09 PM To encourage use of Appraise, I like using "unconventional" treasures that might logically make their way into a horde or stash of loot: rare books, paintings, sculptures, fine vintage wines, antiques, jewelry, etc. If all of your treasures consist of piles of gold, there's never a reason to use a skill like Appraise, but if you hide wealth in plain sight by creating the kinds of valuables that "real" creatures would collect, you create a need for the players to try to figure out whether the statuette in the chest was merely gaudy junk or actually a rare carving by Gorthomaush Of Everfalls which would fetch a very nice price if the players could find a fence to hook them up with a collector of Fourth Epoch orcish fertility idols, etc., etc.

Hope that helps. If I can think of any other suggestions I'll post again. But like someone already wrote, don't worry if certain skills never get used: one campaign might feature Knowledge (x) every five minutes while another campaign never calls for a single one. It's all good as long as people are having a good time.
Iddig Ap Nil
03-07-06, 10:28 PM Wow, players not using Appraise?! What the heck? Cheat them a few times when they go to sell things off (like gems), eventually they'll figure that they should, perhaps, use the appriase skill if they have it,.
Mitchell
03-07-06, 10:37 PM No one uses spellcraft?
Let them encounter a sorcerer who lives to counterspell the characters spells.
It's primary purpose is to identify a spell as it is being cast. This does two things.
1) Allows for counterspelling. Fireballs don't hurt if they don't go off.
2) Let's you know if you need to run now. Seriously. You have a decent spellcraft, you can use it to find out what's coming. If the BBEG just cast a certain level spell, you can get an idea of how powerful they are, and you may not want to fight them right now. Not all encounters need to be winnable, as long as the PCs have fair warning. Spellcraft can be that fair warning. The knowledge that the BBEG just cast harm can be a life saver. If they touch someone, someone is going to get hurt, so you know to stay away and use ranged weapons. Knowing that they just cast a spell that had no obvious effect means nothing. Someone is going to stroll up and get hurt.

Use rope is another one that can be worked in if the players need to tie up bad guys (opposed check: Use rope vs. escape artist) or need to climb down a hole. Nothing worse than a knot giving out on you 50' from the bottom. Especially if there is something bad down there, like lava, or even water if the character can't swim.

Sleight of hand is also pick-pocketing. If they need to get through door X, but the only way is to get the keys off of guard Y (who is more than capable of defending himself), then somone needs to lift the keys. Even if they are sitting on a desk that someone is sitting at, it is still sleight of hand. It can also be used to smuggle a small weapon through security.

I could give instances for every skill. Just read the description, see what they do, and give them a situation where that particular skill is needed or used against them. You don't need every skill, but if you have casters not using spellcraft, a rabid counterspeller could show them some benefits.

That being said, don't feel obligated to use every skill all the time. If the players are in the middle of a city adventure, survival may just not be needed, but if you have someone with survival, don't just ignore it. Let them use it. Let them feel that the points were well spent. If you ignore skills, the players will also.
strumbleduck
03-08-06, 12:22 AM Some comments:

Escape Artist: Rogue-type characters tend to take this, especially halfling rogues (or other small characters). It is the only way such a character can hope to escape from a grapple.

Handle Animal: Druids and rangers take this so that they can get their animal companions to perform tricks they aren't trained to do. Be very stingy with animal behavior -- animal companions only follow command that they're trained to follow.

Perform: This is a very important mechanical skill for bards. Also, I once has a player whose bard would perform at a bar whenever the party was in town for a night, thus earning a few extra gp.

Spellcraft: This is absolutely essential -- it's the only way to identify spells in place or being cast. Also, there are a few places in the game (planes where magic is wierd, teleporting into the Underdark in Faerun, etc.) where you need to make a Spellcraft check to successfully cast a spell. Also, IMC players can use Spellcraft to identify magic items (as per the Save My Game article a few months back).

Diplomacy and Initmidate: This one's up to your players. It's incredible how often a Diplomany (or intimidate) check can be used to avert a battle. You can also use it when interacting with minor NPCs to convince them to do what you want (instead of role-playing an annoying argument).

Gather Information: This skill can work very well if you consistently give the PCs important knowledge when they use it. You have to plan this knowledge beforehand, though, and it only works if the locals for some reason have information about the adventure site, or if the adventure involves local persoanlities or politics. It's sort of up to the DM -- either this skill is required for your adventures, or it isn't. (Similar to bardic knowledge, or to a ranger's Track.)

Use Rope: This skill is dumb. I've only ever seen it come up when the party wants to tie up a prisoner so that they can't escape. It isn't important enough to take ranks in, and whether or not the prisoner gets to escape usually boils down to DM fiat anyway.

I've only ever had one player use Craft, specifically Craft (Alchemy), and it was because she was training to be an alchemist. I have never seen anyone use Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Profession, or Sleight of Hand.

Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive

When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will?

Don't have NPCs make skill checks for Diplomacy or Intimidate -- just play them differently depending on their ranks in the skills. An NPC with ranks in Diplomacy should just make really good arguments and sound very reasonable and convincing.

Do the same thing with Bluff and NPCs who are lying. You should, however, roll Bluff for NPCs whenever the players say "I'll use Sense Motive...". You might also secretly roll Bluff opposed by the PC's Sense Motive when an NPC is lying.

Your NPCs should roll Sense Motive whenever the PCs are lying to them, opposed by the PC's Bluff check. Give a bonus or penalty to the Bluff based on the believability of the lie.

When would I implement some of these skills/how? (Intimidate/Survival)
Survival is for following tracks and for gathering food in the wilderness. I also have the PCs make Survival checks when looking for a secluded space to camp for the night to decrease the chance of an overnight encounter. (This seems to make more sense than Hide.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kage_Ryu 03-07-06, 06:00 PM	I find I have troubles incorperating skills to the game, both in rping and battle. There are a few skills we use often but many are left out for various reasons. I'll detail the various groups below: Unused Skills Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Sleight of hand, Spellcraft, Swim, and Use Rop These are all skills I have troubles incorperating in various circumstances and would like tips on how to use them - I've divided them into subcatagories below as to which areas I have the most troubles... Player's Don't Use Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Info, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Sleight of hand, Spellcraft, Use Rope. My player's don't use these regardless of ranks being put into them. Any tips on how to get them to think outside the box? NPC difficulty Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will? Campaign Building Difficulty Appraise, Craft, Disable Device (Not just for traps, but for like wagon wheels and stuff), Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Survival, Use Rope. Some of these I don't like and so I don't incorperate (Escape artist/Use Rope) how would I use those well/often? Some of these are time consuming, how can I allow player's to use them without making everyone have to sit by and let time go by? (Craft, Perform, Profession) When would I implement some of these skills/how? (Intimidate/Survival) What's the best way to implement knowledge other than for basic stuff like monsters/local information (Local meaning the head hauncho, what's the best place to eat at, what monsters are around the area)? Such as Religion, Geography, etc. And how would I let player's use handle animal often? Thanks for the help ^_^
Rathje 03-07-06, 09:16 PM	Players might be willing to use those skills more if you had some NPC's using them. Perhaps they'll encounter an enemy Ranger who catches them in rope-based traps, ties them up, then robs them. This shows them Use Rope (plus some sneaky stuff) and the use of Escape Artist. If they get Grappled, specifically ask them if they'd like to use Escape Artist to wriggle free. I find Craft and Profession are rarely taken unless it has a purpose, like a poisonmaker. You could offer a free 1 skill point per level (x4 at level 1) for any Craft or Profession, just for flavour. I gave that to my PCs and one got a job as a scribe for the mayor, another cooked all their meals as a chef, and the third fixed all their damaged clothing as a tailor. The rancher didn't get much use of his skill, unfortunately. Spellcraft can be shown through counterspelling opponents. I believe scroll-use takes Spellcraft. For things like NPCs using Bluff, it takes a fair bit of trusting your players not to metagame. Roll the NPC's Bluff and the Players' Sense Motive behind a screen or something, then respond with some clever adjective use. Or just say "You're fairly certain he isn't lying" or "He looks like a nice guy."
DaMullet 03-07-06, 09:39 PM	By the way, it's considered a VERY poor sign when the players have Diplomacy or Intimidate uysed gainst them. They are skills for influencing NPC attitudes, not PC attitudes. Let them react as they will.
Stormranger 03-07-06, 09:41 PM	Kage, I don't think you have to be particularly concerned if your players use certain skills less frequently than others - it's not as if the D&D police are going to come round with a checklist anytime. The answer's pretty simple, though - if you want your players to use a skill, you'll have to give them a suitable opportunity to do so. If you want them use Handle Animal more frequently, make them encounter angry or panicked animals. If you want them to use Escape Artist, have them get captured and tied up. If you want them to use Use Rope, make it so that they're the ones who have to capture something and immobilise it. If you want them to use Decipher Script, have them intercept a coded message. I could go through the entire list, but I imagine the pattern's obvious. Of course, if you mean that you want the players to use skills in a creative fashion on their own initiative (for instance, using Use Rope to lassoo and restrain an opponent in combat, using sleight of hand to conceal a hidden set of lockpicks after being captured, using Handle Animal to stampede a herd of wild horses through an orc camp, etc.), well, that's really up to them. You could encourage them by offering an XP reward for creative skill use, maybe. When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will? First of all, when it comes to Bluff, roll (secretly) an opposed Sense Motive check for your PCs - if they succeed, tell them that they suspect that the NPC is lying. If they fail, either say nothing or tell them that it looks like the NPC is telling the truth. The reverse applies with Sense Motive - every time the PCs try to bluff someone, have the NPC roll an opposed Sense Motive check, and if it fails then the NPC believes the lie. It's more or less the same with Intimidate (except no opposed roll) - if the NPC makes his check, tell your players that it looks like the NPC isn't making idle threats and is genuinely capable of hurting them badly if they don't cooperate. With Diplomacy, tell your players that the NPC's offering them a good deal, that he looks trustworthy, that his proposal sounds reasonable etc. The trick is not to let the players know that you're rolling a skill check for the NPC - if you tell them something without it being obvious that the NPC is using a skill to influence them, quite frequently your players will accept it as truth. Of course, some times they'll still have a hard time believing an NPC's bluff or agreeing to his proposal, but you can still give them the impression that the NPC at least believes his own lie. Some of these are time consuming, how can I allow player's to use them without making everyone have to sit by and let time go by? (Craft, Perform, Profession) Allow the rest of the party to do their own thing while the skill-using PC is occupied. If a bard PC wants to perform at a tavern, there's no rule that says the rest of the party has to sit around and watch him if they don't want to - tell them they can go and visit the market or talk to NPCs for information or go hunt some dinner or something. In fact, given that a bard performing in a tavern for a couple of hours (or equivalent - a warrior making a new sword with Craft, for instance) doesn't require much of your attention, you're free to do whatever you want with the rest of your players. Rathje beat me to the punch, so I've repeated some of what he said. Hope it's useful, anyway.
Raum_ul_Amon 03-07-06, 09:54 PM	I don't think that it's surprising that you're list of skills that you find difficult to integrate into an adventure are the very ones that your players don't use no matter how many skill ranks they have in them. Social skills are my favorite, both as a player and as a DM. It takes a very skilled DM (which I am not yet) to integrate social skills into roleplay with powerful effect. I tend to play my D&D kinda like I live my life and as I've gotten older I realize how much I depend on my relationships with other people to aid me in accomplishing difficult goals and objectives. Try not to lead your players by the nose when it comes to adventure hooks and such. Breath life into the NPCs that inhabit your world. Give them personal associations with institutions, agencies and other NPCs. Establish a habit of EXPECTING information, resources and benefits to arise out of your PCs relationships with others. For example, take Gather Information. As a PC that puts points into this skill I expect it to be somewhat useful, and in the flat, generic CORE rules it is but it lacks immersion in the actual NPCs that populate a campaign world. What I usually do is I use Gather Information in it's basic form as is for when somebody is looking for generic and general information, something that a large number of people would know. If however they want to know something specific I use it as a means to point the person to someone who knows that information. You wanna know if there's a thieves guild in town, no problem, a normal Gather Information roll of 10-15 DC and you are sure to find someone in the place that knows there is, or suspects there is. If you wanna know that nature of it, or who belongs to it then go talk to Vinny over there, he 'probably' knows more than I do. Depending on how your original Gather Information roll was I usually add a positive or negative circumstance adjustment for what comes next. So, you meet Vinny, but Vinny, he don't like you or he's indifferent, not talkative or is really broke, needs a beer and thinks he can get some money from you for any information. This is where Diplomacy and the adjustment of NPC reactions becomes so important. Why not spend some time with him, buy him a beer and see if you can't move his basic view of you from indifferent to friendly or even helpful. If Vinny likes you, he's sure to give you the specific information you need or want. And if he REALLY likes you he might not even let his buddies in the Thieves Guild know that you were asking questions about them. And really, what's to stop Vinny from just feeding you a line of BS? Even if he does like you, maybe he likes your gold even more? Here is where Bluff and Sense Motive become almost mandatory. I ran a campaign in which I stated out front to my players that this is how I use social skills and that if they chose to not take these skills when available there would be consequences. About a month into the campaign one of the players came to me complaining bitterly about the lack of help that one key NPC was providing. He never seemed to have any relevant information to give, or if he did it was incomplete or didn't match the actual reality in some odd detail. The player eventually said to me, "It's like this guy doesn't even want to help us succeed, heck he isn't acting friendly or helpful at all his information usually gets us into trouble." And then the light came on and as he talked he put it together as I had intended. This guy was not their friend, he was using them for his own selfish ends but the players had never once used Sense Motive or tested the validity of what he was saying. This is one example that is only possible in a campaign where the information, resources and or benefits that are necessary for the PCs to succeed reside firmly with NPCs. If a DM just simply doles out these valuable commodities to the PCs without first grounding them within the context of their NPCs then the players will see no benefit in pursuing social and other non-combat skills. Do this for too long and the players form sloppy habits which really, IMO reduces the immersion and enjoyment of the 'roleplay' part of D&D.
revnk 03-07-06, 10:09 PM	To encourage use of Appraise, I like using "unconventional" treasures that might logically make their way into a horde or stash of loot: rare books, paintings, sculptures, fine vintage wines, antiques, jewelry, etc. If all of your treasures consist of piles of gold, there's never a reason to use a skill like Appraise, but if you hide wealth in plain sight by creating the kinds of valuables that "real" creatures would collect, you create a need for the players to try to figure out whether the statuette in the chest was merely gaudy junk or actually a rare carving by Gorthomaush Of Everfalls which would fetch a very nice price if the players could find a fence to hook them up with a collector of Fourth Epoch orcish fertility idols, etc., etc. Hope that helps. If I can think of any other suggestions I'll post again. But like someone already wrote, don't worry if certain skills never get used: one campaign might feature Knowledge (x) every five minutes while another campaign never calls for a single one. It's all good as long as people are having a good time.
Iddig Ap Nil 03-07-06, 10:28 PM	Wow, players not using Appraise?! What the heck? Cheat them a few times when they go to sell things off (like gems), eventually they'll figure that they should, perhaps, use the appriase skill if they have it,.
Mitchell 03-07-06, 10:37 PM	No one uses spellcraft? Let them encounter a sorcerer who lives to counterspell the characters spells. It's primary purpose is to identify a spell as it is being cast. This does two things. 1) Allows for counterspelling. Fireballs don't hurt if they don't go off. 2) Let's you know if you need to run now. Seriously. You have a decent spellcraft, you can use it to find out what's coming. If the BBEG just cast a certain level spell, you can get an idea of how powerful they are, and you may not want to fight them right now. Not all encounters need to be winnable, as long as the PCs have fair warning. Spellcraft can be that fair warning. The knowledge that the BBEG just cast harm can be a life saver. If they touch someone, someone is going to get hurt, so you know to stay away and use ranged weapons. Knowing that they just cast a spell that had no obvious effect means nothing. Someone is going to stroll up and get hurt. Use rope is another one that can be worked in if the players need to tie up bad guys (opposed check: Use rope vs. escape artist) or need to climb down a hole. Nothing worse than a knot giving out on you 50' from the bottom. Especially if there is something bad down there, like lava, or even water if the character can't swim. Sleight of hand is also pick-pocketing. If they need to get through door X, but the only way is to get the keys off of guard Y (who is more than capable of defending himself), then somone needs to lift the keys. Even if they are sitting on a desk that someone is sitting at, it is still sleight of hand. It can also be used to smuggle a small weapon through security. I could give instances for every skill. Just read the description, see what they do, and give them a situation where that particular skill is needed or used against them. You don't need every skill, but if you have casters not using spellcraft, a rabid counterspeller could show them some benefits. That being said, don't feel obligated to use every skill all the time. If the players are in the middle of a city adventure, survival may just not be needed, but if you have someone with survival, don't just ignore it. Let them use it. Let them feel that the points were well spent. If you ignore skills, the players will also.
strumbleduck 03-08-06, 12:22 AM	Some comments: Escape Artist: Rogue-type characters tend to take this, especially halfling rogues (or other small characters). It is the only way such a character can hope to escape from a grapple. Handle Animal: Druids and rangers take this so that they can get their animal companions to perform tricks they aren't trained to do. Be very stingy with animal behavior -- animal companions only follow command that they're trained to follow. Perform: This is a very important mechanical skill for bards. Also, I once has a player whose bard would perform at a bar whenever the party was in town for a night, thus earning a few extra gp. Spellcraft: This is absolutely essential -- it's the only way to identify spells in place or being cast. Also, there are a few places in the game (planes where magic is wierd, teleporting into the Underdark in Faerun, etc.) where you need to make a Spellcraft check to successfully cast a spell. Also, IMC players can use Spellcraft to identify magic items (as per the Save My Game article a few months back). Diplomacy and Initmidate: This one's up to your players. It's incredible how often a Diplomany (or intimidate) check can be used to avert a battle. You can also use it when interacting with minor NPCs to convince them to do what you want (instead of role-playing an annoying argument). Gather Information: This skill can work very well if you consistently give the PCs important knowledge when they use it. You have to plan this knowledge beforehand, though, and it only works if the locals for some reason have information about the adventure site, or if the adventure involves local persoanlities or politics. It's sort of up to the DM -- either this skill is required for your adventures, or it isn't. (Similar to bardic knowledge, or to a ranger's Track.) Use Rope: This skill is dumb. I've only ever seen it come up when the party wants to tie up a prisoner so that they can't escape. It isn't important enough to take ranks in, and whether or not the prisoner gets to escape usually boils down to DM fiat anyway. I've only ever had one player use Craft, specifically Craft (Alchemy), and it was because she was training to be an alchemist. I have never seen anyone use Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Profession, or Sleight of Hand. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive When it involves the player's believing something someway, how do I use these? I can't simply tell them, "You're intimidated by this guy.". How do I get the player's to react to these accordingly without taking away they're free will? Don't have NPCs make skill checks for Diplomacy or Intimidate -- just play them differently depending on their ranks in the skills. An NPC with ranks in Diplomacy should just make really good arguments and sound very reasonable and convincing. Do the same thing with Bluff and NPCs who are lying. You should, however, roll Bluff for NPCs whenever the players say "I'll use Sense Motive...". You might also secretly roll Bluff opposed by the PC's Sense Motive when an NPC is lying. Your NPCs should roll Sense Motive whenever the PCs are lying to them, opposed by the PC's Bluff check. Give a bonus or penalty to the Bluff based on the believability of the lie. When would I implement some of these skills/how? (Intimidate/Survival) Survival is for following tracks and for gathering food in the wilderness. I also have the PCs make Survival checks when looking for a secluded space to camp for the night to decrease the chance of an overnight encounter. (This seems to make more sense than Hide.)