Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gildnao 06-07-05, 03:14 AM	ok, so like, in my DnD group, i always have a problem with the spell casters, all-be-it the arcane ones mostly, they are always blowing their spells off fast and furiously, resulting in the whole group being forced to rest almost after every fight! also, i dont know if this is whats driving them, but they keep a kill score sheet, just for fun i guess, i joined and they were already doing it, i dont really know why, just for kicks and giggles i guess, and the arcane spell casters are always like, 3 - 4 times ahead of everyone else. I dont know what to do with them, i want them to be able to go atleast 3 - 4 fights (depending on the challenge) before having to rest. they've also gotten used to using the DM's guide, either mine or their own copy (everyones been a DM at one point or another) to go threw and design their weapons to buy from shops along with armor or other magic items. I want to put as much of a stop to this as i can, but im unsure how to do that and not seem to ... controlling ... i mean i know im the DM and its my world, but, what good is my world if no one is playing in it? i want them to get most of their items or weapons / armor atleast from my monsters / dungeon / rewards rather than from money and stores. also, i kinda wanna implement some 2E weapons, or weapon layouts. e.g. a +2 longsword that can cast mirror image on the bearer once perday aswell as haste or something along those lines, thats why id rather them use the stuff i make for them rather than the stores bought ... id also like to see them do more, character storylines or stuff, i dont want to stop the game for storylines and get all bogged down, but id like it if they like 'became' their characters for a couple hours every week if anyone can help id greatly appreciate it !!! i havent DM'd yet but my turn is comming up soon, these are just things ive seen in other games we've played. Also if anyone knows of any easy ways to convert to Hex's rather than Squares for the grids please reply .... Thanks in advance
Maerdash 06-07-05, 03:29 AM	The best thing to do is to talk to them about it, it may not work with everyone, but dont get discouraged and dont get mad, use positive reinforcement, ive had a lot of luck with it since the boards turned me onto it. About all you can really do though is try to come to a compromise that will allow you and the rest of the players to all have fun. EDIT: I like Brave Sir Robin's solution MUCH better than my whole talking thing so diregard and go with the post below :D
Brave Sir Robin 06-07-05, 03:43 AM	I have this problom in my current game I have a spellfire wielder who at the first sign of a though NPC blew his wad on it resulting in one NPC going doun to -53 HP in a single fell swoop, hehehehe but tricky me I put them up aganst a group of kobalds a sorcerer was the leader with a few fighters, its all good, BUT little did they know that a dragon was hiding in the shadows. the result- the spell caster destroyer the sorcerer and then ran away screaming when he could do nothing against the dragon. he did learn his leson and now conserves spells. I hated haveing to do it but in the end it worked so what the hay :D
Nom 06-07-05, 03:58 AM	Spellcasters: Well, you would expect evocation-style spellcasters to rack up lots of easy kills, while the melee guys take on the tough guys. That said, the easiest way to deal with this problem is to not let them rest after every fight. If they "return to town", just add time limits ("no, you cant spend 4 days resting when the sacrifice is tonight", "while you were dallying, someone else looted the dungeon", "growing tired of your continual mooching, the villagers kick you out and try to find some 'real' heroes"). If they "camp in the wild", remember that most creatures object to hostiles camping in their domain. Of course, if you know where they are, you can gather your entire force rather than fight piecemeal. In short, make your adventure design reward those who conserve their resources. If they spend them too fast too early, don't give them free ones for later - which is what resting effectively allows. Purchasing items: Firstly, treat the DM's guide as a list of examples, not a definitive list. That it exists in the DMG does not necessarily imply that it exists in your world, and vice versa. At some point, those with the wealth to buy magic are going to want to purchase it from those with the acumen to make it. Banning the trading of magic items doesn't work, unless you're in a notably low-magic setting - in which case, watch out for more powerful characters trying to acquire your items. Basic magic weapons, armour, scrolls, wands and potions should be fairly easy to acquire. For anything advanced, you'll need to consider whether there is anyone who is likely to be able to make or trade such items. if you want flaming to be an unusual enhancement only available from a couple of specialists or with special training, then that's OK. Most potent items will be made by commission, except in the unusual event that a particular item is recently in stock. Magic traders are more likely to act as brokers rather than corner store operators, and will charge a hefty fee for their trouble (hence the 50% sell price). Always remember that a trader of items worth thousands of gp will have a lot of loose wealth about, and thus will have serious protection (including magical). Jerry the village blacksmith might trade in masterwork items in a pinch, but he won't buy your +4 longsword. There's not really a lot of advantage to hexes over squares - all directions become cost 1 but you lose an axis of movement. Just change all squares into hexes (a Small or Medium creature takes 1, a Large creature takes 3, a Huge creature takes 7, and so on). The main quirk will be that radius effects and sight lines should be drawn from a hex rather than an intersection, so you might need to tweak some of those rules.
waqqif 06-07-05, 04:24 AM	ok, so like, in my DnD group, i always have a problem with the spell casters, all-be-it the arcane ones mostly, they are always blowing their spells off fast and furiously, resulting in the whole group being forced to rest almost after every fight! Nice, and that they could do without problem as a standard?´ I rest in the middle of the underdark, hunted by drows, or in the front of the zhenst or whatever. I guarantee this mistake you don`t made more than twice IMC first and lasttime. also, i dont know if this is whats driving them, but they keep a kill score sheet, If it`s fun, why bothery you? they've also gotten used to using the DM's guide, either mine or their own copy (everyones been a DM at one point or another) to go threw and design their weapons to buy from shops along with armor or other magic items. And? The same thing as would they go to an shop or alchemis and they I want an item with these specific qualities, could you do it and for how much and how lond did it take. And somethings take
tindin 06-07-05, 04:44 AM	as for the resting part....look at it as how tired chould they be if they where up for say 4 hours then dont let them rest to get spells back cause there is no way they chould be tired (the need to sleep for what 4 - 8 hours to do so)
Brave Sir Robin 06-07-05, 05:01 AM	I don't think you need to rest per-se I think all you need is x amount of houers of non ACTIVIVITY. I dont think you should put a limit on the amount of times you can rest in a day, you'll just have to be more creative with your stuff. ;) one of the things I like to do is make something interupt there rest, not something huge or overpowering just something so that they have to start over again.(with the resting) soner or later they will learn that spell conservation is the way to go :D
SamiPeikko 06-07-05, 08:04 AM	About conserving spells/resources: I had a real game example about how this was made to happen. The party was sent to a place tho retrieve the Important Item from a ruined & cursed city and warned to hurry, as the Enemies were seen around there. On the road we met always at least 2 random-looking challenging hard-to-avoid encounters (about half an hour apart), that were definitely not from the Enemy. There was believed to be a time limit of couple of days, so as soon as we saw this to be a pattern we pressed on. Also the Item was cleverly hidden, but there was a risk, after certain point (a previously mud covered entrance), that the Enemy might find it following our tracks, if we chose to retreat to rest. So to summarize: 1) tell to the players (through NPC's) that soon they will need their powers, and throw in several lesser encounters meantime: say, 2 at first, more later, when they get more patient. Give them time to adapt to this new trend, as it surely must affect at least cleric's spell selection. If they retreat before final encounter, replace used ones with something suitable. 2) Use short, periodic time limits, but remember to give enough time to study spells between them. 3) Try to sometimes create situations that pressure party to continue. Say, if they did not get the item in time, enemies got it first, and now they must get it from much more difficult place. And make them guess this beforehand. Also about resting in wilderness: inconveniently timed low level encounters cause trouble to clerics and druids. For wizards, interruption of sleep merely moves the time to study spells as it is not fixed, but with fixed time for prayer divine casters easily lose some spells for a day due to recent casting limit. This is unfair, but you can use it, if those players can force others to comply to sleeping indoors. And about magic items: If you choose to often put time limits in your game, this solution sould work. Make a list about the items you would like the players to buy. This is the inventory of magic shop. Of course you need to include lots of low level (and survival) scrolls, potions and wands. Anything else (that you do not object to) can be ordered in the largest city. It takes time at least equal to the production time, or maybe double. You can also think about giving those "favored standard items" 80% resale value, so that characters can use them while waiting their order to finish without great personal loss of wealth.
High Octane 06-07-05, 08:07 AM	Remember, fireballs evaporate. But shooting off fireballs too early is premature evaporation.
wurwulf 06-07-05, 02:09 PM	Keep this in mind as well: According to the core rules (PHB I believe), not matter how many times you sleep, you can only restore your spells once in a 24-hour period. Meaning that after an 8-hour rest, the party will have to be up-n'-at'em for 16 hours before they are able to rest and recuperate spells. Same goes for recovering hit points and anything with a "use per day" limit. So that means that you would actually have to set camp for 24 hours between encounters if you were resting between each. 24 hours is more than enough time for some major **** to go down, including the organization of reinforcements and search parties by the enemy, and the hiring of less inept heroes. And of course, they could run out of rations and water as well. Heroes do have to eat and drink. Hope this helps.
TinManFan 06-07-05, 02:22 PM	OK, my DMs been doing this (and thus making me all sad and stuff). I play a Wizard in his game BTW. Have a semi-big army lay siege to the town they're in and have someone else assume command of the defense. Have him approach the PC's, noting thier "great" accomplishments and have them undertake missions of the town. "Clear out the siege engines near this trench and try to take the trench so we can use it as a foreward location" -Done- "Good job, now go take out the trebuchet (or however the heck ya spell it) over here. No we CAN'T wait, everyone knows those goblins and giants and kobalds can see in the dark better than us, so we need it done by nightfall." Keep them going. If they get all lippy, well, we all know how bad battlefield punishments were in the old days.
SwitchUK 06-07-05, 02:27 PM	If a spellcaster runs out of spells because he or she's been blowing them all on small encounters, then kill that spellcaster in the next big encounter. I can guarantee that, in the aftermath of the subsequent "Raise Dead" spell, even the most hardcore spell-slinger will learn to be a bit more frugal.
Nom 06-07-05, 09:56 PM	Without disagreeing with what has been said above, you also need to cue the spellcasters on when it is an appropriate time to 'go for broke'. It's a little embarrassing to see your primary caster go down because he is conserving his best spells, and when you ask him "Why?" have him respond "I thought this was only the first encounter". You need a good rapport with your players to get "pacing" right. Players have a responsibility to attempt to work with the DM to follow the highs and lows of the story. DMs have a responsibility to cue the players to these, and to be flexible enough to accommodate player inventiveness and ideas.
Skeane 06-07-05, 10:30 PM	I had a group that had similar problems with their M.U.s; I upped the 'random encounters'. A small monster would pop out while they were resting or a distressing noise would lead the players from their camp-- nothing enough to threaten party extinction, just enough to give 'em a little after-battle challenge... After a couple of minor skirmishes, the M.U.s realized that conservation can be a good tactic.
DeWayne 06-08-05, 09:07 PM	ok, so like, in my DnD group, i always have a problem with the spell casters, all-be-it the arcane ones mostly, they are always blowing their spells off fast and furiously, resulting in the whole group being forced to rest almost after every fight! Add more encounters – after they have blown off all their spells. Intelligent monsters are going to notice the behavior of the PCs (i.e. “Have one fight then run away”) and take advantage of the situation. Half way out of the dungeon, have the monsters set an ambush. If they are in the wilderness, let them go back to their camp, then attack in the middle of the night – before they have a chance to regain their spells. In either case, intelligent monsters are likely to specifically target casters because they know they’re vulnerable. they've also gotten used to using the DM's guide, either mine or their own copy (everyones been a DM at one point or another) to go threw and design their weapons to buy from shops along with armor or other magic items. All armor, magical and otherwise, is going to be custom work (steel plates beaten into the shape of a human body are NOT one size fits all! They need to be beaten into the shape of a specific body.) This mean it’s going to take quite a bit of time to make. That should slow them down a bit. The same can be side about magical weapons being custom items. Unless there is an amazing amount of money floating around your world, and it’s in the hands of lots of people who want to spend it on magic weapons, merchants aren’t going to be able to afford to have a lot invested in inventory. Odds are the party is going to have to find someone to act as a broker to get them in touch with someone both willing and able to fabricate the weapons.
Thoronmir 06-08-05, 10:53 PM	ok, so like, in my DnD group, i always have a problem with the spell casters, all-be-it the arcane ones mostly, they are always blowing their spells off fast and furiously, resulting in the whole group being forced to rest almost after every fight!They need to learn to conserve. But you need to make sure that the encounters are designed properly. An adequate challenge should exhaust about 25% of the party’s resources … including spells. If the encounters are appropriate for their level, then the only way to break them of this habit is to not allow the party to rest so often. “Ticking Clock” scenarios (party must do X before Y time to prevent Z disaster) and “random” encounters can work.also, i dont know if this is whats driving them, but they keep a kill score sheet, just for fun i guess, i joined and they were already doing it, i dont really know why, just for kicks and giggles i guess, and the arcane spell casters are always like, 3 - 4 times ahead of everyone else.Eh, who cares if they “keep score”? Though, I’m curious whether it’s just the players counting kills or do the PCs do it as well.I dont know what to do with them, i want them to be able to go atleast 3 - 4 fights (depending on the challenge) before having to rest.That’s certainly the way the game is designed to work … 3-4 encounters before all their resources are spent.they've also gotten used to using the DM's guide, either mine or their own copy (everyones been a DM at one point or another) to go threw and design their weapons to buy from shops along with armor or other magic items. I want to put as much of a stop to this as i can, but im unsure how to do that and not seem to ... controlling ... i mean i know im the DM and its my world, but, what good is my world if no one is playing in it? i want them to get most of their items or weapons / armor atleast from my monsters / dungeon / rewards rather than from money and stores.It’s entirely within your control to determine the availability of magic items. Nothing in the RAW requires that “magic shops” exist. You could easily rule that, in your game, magic items are either found or crafted by the PCs. I abhor Magic R Us stores and never use them.also, i kinda wanna implement some 2E weapons, or weapon layouts. e.g. a +2 longsword that can cast mirror image on the bearer once perday aswell as haste or something along those lines, thats why id rather them use the stuff i make for them rather than the stores bought ...Then do it. It’s your prerogative.id also like to see them do more, character storylines or stuff, i dont want to stop the game for storylines and get all bogged down, but id like it if they like 'became' their characters for a couple hours every weekIf they’re not in the habit of immersing themselves into their characters, it’s hard to help them acquire the habit. One option is to reward the players who provide backgrounds and roleplay. To be honest, it sounds as if this group isn’t used to the type of game you want to run. You need to have a talk with the players and let them know what changes you intend to make to their established pattern. If they balk, then suggest that, if they’re not interested in playing such a game, someone else ought to DM. Personally, I don’t think I would want to DM for players who keep count of kills, assume that they can buy whatever items they want from the DMG, have no backgrounds for their characters, and don’t assume their characters’ identities during the game. Their style of play seems too much like a videogame for my liking.