Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bhu 01-04-06, 05:44 AM	My players are anti-munchkins, which is kind of a good thing. They want to roleplay. However in their zeal to not be power gamers, they have made some very weak characters, and apparently do NOT realize it. And by weak i mean goblins could probably stomp them. They're chafing a little to get into more fights as we've had very few. We've had few for several reasons. One player is a Scout with no armor, a 10 St and modest other stats. He plays his character as though it were a front line comabt tank. Which means he gets eaten alive in fights. The other is Hexblade with no armor, no dex, but a decent strength and a big weapon. he could be a combat monster if he had armor, or tried to be, but instead sits in the back during fights trying to see how things are going before committing himself (which usually takes at least 3 rounds). He has no ranged ability whatsoever other than his Hexblades curse which hes refused to use in every encounter "in case he needs it later". And lastly we have the Druid/Wu-Jen and his animal companion. He's not bad, but he doesnt really have any combat potential either beyond 1 or 2 spells. So I have one guy who can fight, but almost refuses to do so, 1 who sort of kind of can, and is far too confident for his own good, and a low level spellcaster split between 2 classes nullifying most of his effectiveness. Id like to have the occasional encounter, but 1 or 2 criticals could end a fight (and possibly the game as well). They're absurdly easy to hit, and low enough in hit points that a crit from a d8 weapon could pretty much kill one of them flat out. Thusly far they've had help in the form of an NPC, but that sort of thing gets boring quickly for any group. After 3 months now they've had about as many fights. Plenty of mystery solving, but little iin the way of comabt. And it looks like they finally want some. Hoping someone has some ideas.
Flushpuppie 01-04-06, 05:54 AM	One of the NPC that gives them a quest could advice them to wear armor because of the perils that lie ahead. He could scry through a crystal ball to show them one horrific creature that dwells in the dungeon they have to visit.
mcmurphy510 01-04-06, 07:11 AM	Consider yourself blessed. Low level / low power groups (IMO) are among the easist to DM. You should be able to just throw stuff at them that pretty much matches their average character level (maybe a bit lower due to the makeup of the party and due to the fact that you only have 3 PCs). Some suggestions. Maybe have them each roll up another PC (for 6 total). That'll round out the party. Suggest a wizard and a cleric. Used properly that should really strentghen them as a group. Also maybe consider giving them different types of fights. Have enemies that will caputre rather than kill (great for plot development too). Maybe you could then put them in an arena and give them a series of one on one fights (to win back their freedom?) Or enemies that will use subdual damage. Maybe they go after a band of brutal thugs, but when they encounter them they only do subdual damage... maybe they aren't so brutal after all, someone is manipluating them into thinking they are. Also, you could have them encounter some battles all ready in progress. They come across two parties fighting it out and they have to decide which side (if any) to help. That way there's some intrigue about weather they helped the 'right' side... and the other party is allready weakened somewhat, making the battle more survivable. What level are they at after three months of gaming? I would hope higher than third. Since they are not that tough a group, i'd actually reduce the XPs they get for fights, and make up for it in traps and solving mysteries and roleplaying. Maybe if they see that they are progressing still without so many battles, maybe they wont want them so badly... but if that does not work, be willing to go back.
YRM 01-04-06, 08:15 AM	Ugh... I love to challenge a party with a variety of tactical combat in different environments. The tactics your group is using are obviously horrible. - Nobody wears armor? WHY? - Does the Hexblade think he can take his curses with him after he dies? - Does the Scout think he's playing a barbarian? The answer for you should be to throw encounters at them that are appropriate for their party level. A CR = to a party of 4's level should use 25% of their resources. You have 3 players, so the CR can be a bit lower. If they are level 1-2, they should be able to handle six goblins pretty easily. Even at level 1, most groups can manage to kill a few goblins per character. If you throw an encounter like that at the group without doing anything to make it harder, and it does kill the whole party, they should have no room to whine, and perhaps they'll come back with at least moderately effective characters and moderately effective tactics. Sup-par adventuring parties don't usually live long enough to make the history books. If they don't adapt, their short lived party can serve as an example for other adventuring parties to head out the door better prepared. There's no excuse for not wearing armor if your class allows for it. You might be surprised and find out that they can handle typical CR encounters. If not, just calmly apologize that the campaign ended in a TPK and mention that the encounter that killed them was not designed to kill them, and if they're interested, you have some advice that could easily have saved them. (wear armor, use tactics, use your abilities) A wizard who uses "spells" and a paladin who uses "armor" are not powergamers.
Clawhound 01-04-06, 12:07 PM	CR assumes four characters. Three characters at low level will make all encounters more difficult. My advice is to work with the players and have fun. Adjust encounters downward a bit, so they they are closer to CR level, and let the players work out the rest.
Roxlimn 01-04-06, 12:13 PM	Why are these people not wearing armor? If these people are "roleplayers," and they don't wear armor on principle, then I suggest changing the game rules so that not wearing armor is mechanically viable. If your players don't want to wear armor, they won't even if they kick the bucket over and over again. It's the flavor of the campaign that they prefer. WoT has the mechanic called "Defense Bonus" that's like level-scaling AC, making armor less of a necessity to survive in combat. Take a gander and see if you like it.
bhu 01-04-06, 03:28 PM	[QUOTE=YRM]Ugh... I love to challenge a party with a variety of tactical combat in different environments. The tactics your group is using are obviously horrible. - Nobody wears armor? WHY? I have no idea. When I asked they said only light armor was available and hte extra +1 or 2 wouldnt make a difference enough to spend hte money. - Does the Hexblade think he can take his curses with him after he dies? He'll be finding out at this rate - Does the Scout think he's playing a barbarian? yes As an example encounter I put them agaisnt a giant frog while they were wandering a swamp. 1 hit die, 1d8 bite. Brought scout to 0 hp in first round with critical. They found a zombie. Missed 90% of the time, but the only one with a slashing weapon capable of getting thru its DR was the hexblade, who held back for 3 rounds because he again saw the scout go down in 1 shot (also a crit). Apparently he only fights if he has to. :confused:
antiok 01-04-06, 03:58 PM	dude an extra 1 is a god send i had 19 ac and with an amulet of natural armor +1 i (cant do math or high variables probabilities but this is a fact) got hit 25% less hits
YRM 01-04-06, 04:03 PM	You also need to ambush the party to some extent with enough foes coming from enough directions that everyone has to fight. Don't over amp the CR... but, if they're level 2, and can't handle a CR 2 (even with 3 people), something is wrong. If they all die, it's really not your fault unless you hit them with a CR substantially higher than their party level. 4 players at ECL 8 should be able to fight a CR 10 or 12 and win (some deaths in the CR12 instance). If 3 players at ECL 2 face an ECL 2 encounter, it should, on average, use up about 33% of their resources instead of 25%, and you can expect them to handle up to 3 encounters like this before they rest. Again, if they can't, it's their own problem. You may find that they CAN handle this stuff in normal situations where you don't start off a fight with a critical hit.
Dragonspirit 01-04-06, 05:25 PM	Have them find some equipment better than average for their level. Good armors, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, bracers, etc.
Ozymandias V. 01-04-06, 05:28 PM	Let them die. They have to understand that their actions have consequences. If they choose to wear no armor and use tactics that don't mesh with their abilities, they deserve what they get.
Illadire 01-04-06, 05:56 PM	My first thought would be kill them. But there are other ways to fix this. A few suggestions: Drop +1 studded leather armor that adds 1 to the Dcs of Hexblade Curses If the scout has good dexterity and weapon finesse, all he needs to be able to do combat is a decent AC. His skirmish ability should allow him to do decent damage even with a light weapon, just make sure he gets it. If the character doesn't have max ranks in Tumble, then he has a problem. You might want to let him rearrange a few of his stats, so he's more effective in combat. A wand of Hail of Stone or a similar attack spell is probably all the Wu Jen needs to participate fully in combat. At higher levels the Wu Jen/Druid could take levels of Mystic Theurge, which I would highly recommend, to increase his effectiveness. Also, if he doesn't have the Practiced Spellcaster feat for at least of one those classes, he needs it.
Arak the mighty 01-04-06, 07:46 PM	IF you have Unearthed Arcana, there's a variant in there that uses class specific armor bonuses, in which nobody wears armor, but still gets a decent bump to their armor bonus based on class. I don't use it, but it's something to think about it.
Bruunwald 01-04-06, 07:52 PM	The simplest thing is to do what you do when the party does powergame, or any other time, for that matter: Match them for stats and equipment. If you have PCs running around with low stats and bad equipment, restat their foes with the same. Then, for a real challenge, use normal, untouched monsters straight from the book as the boss monsters.
ubernex 01-04-06, 07:57 PM	Sit down and talk with them, and figure out the best game to run with them. Seriously. Lay it out on the line that the party is realy under-powered for a traditional D&D game. Ask them what they see their characters doing, and roll with it. 1) If they really want epic-adventure swords and sorcery then two option present themselves a) Let them try and die, they asked for it and knew the consequences b) Run it, but underpower everything. If these are they type of folk who become "heroes" in the land, maybe everyone else is kinda on the weak side as well. 2) If they want more of a puzzles and roleplaying type of game - no problem these are easily scaled for any type of group. Maybe their mission is to escort a diplomat. Half of the challenge might be to get by things that pose a threat without actually fighting, it may look bad for the diplomat if he walks into the twon with his guards acting as bully-boys after all.
ressurrector 01-04-06, 08:21 PM	The tactics your group is using are obviously horrible. - Nobody wears armor? WHY? I have no idea. When I asked they said only light armor was available and hte extra +1 or 2 wouldnt make a difference enough to spend hte money. This sounds like metagaming, though it is really weird to see people metagaming themselves to be weaker. Ask them to explain, why the HECK their characters would go around looking for trouble while wearing no protective gear, and when they find it proceed to NOT fight to the best of their abilities, and think about weither or not they really WANT to fight now that they've found the trouble they were looking for. Seriously, these guys sound like they're rollplaying BADLY, and playing badly in the purely mechanical sense also.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-04-06, 09:58 PM	Put them up against two normal orcs with greataxes. In fact, just one should do it. Once they get TPKed, maybe they realize that in the realm of RPing, their alignment is Lawful Stupid.
bhu 01-04-06, 10:12 PM	. What level are they at after three months of gaming? I would hope higher than third. . We've had some problems meeting due to illnesses, funerals, and holidays, so they just made third.
bhu 01-04-06, 10:25 PM	dude an extra 1 is a god send i had 19 ac and with an amulet of natural armor +1 i (cant do math or high variables probabilities but this is a fact) got hit 25% less hits the parties Ac is Scout (12), Hexblade (11), and Druid/Wu-Jen (10). The first 2 are quite firm in their belief that with the limited armor they're allowed due to class, its best to wait for magic armor and try to get really nasty weapons in the meantime so they can kill opponents before opponents kill them. The thing is that they're primarily used to old school d and d. They played first and second editions growing up, and are used to the rules being fuzzy and not much spelled out, and being able to rely on luck and GM calls to keep things going. That doesnt really work in 3.5. You actually have rules governing most actions now, and the system works differently than it used to. Its seems to be more about modifers and adders, than "roll and hope the Dm is willing". To some extent Im hoping its just them getting used to the new system, and some really bad luck on dice rolls. In second edition we took on a Beholder Queen at 6th level and won. Mostly due to luck, and the party thinking of ideas not governed by the rules then. If we tried that in this edition of the game, they'd be munchies.
Leukrythus 01-04-06, 10:42 PM	I applaud your group for the emphasis on role playing over hack & slash optimization. My best D&D moments came from clever role playing rather than bragging about my kill list. There came a point after many years of playing in groups that knew each other well, that we were no longer to start at first level. That enabled us to emphasize the role playing and personal interations while not jeopardizing survivability. It sounds to me like your group knows each other, and are veteran players. Have you considered allowing them to up their starting levels?
Always-Late 01-04-06, 10:48 PM	Just have them find studded leather and chain shirts on the next medium-sized bad guys. Will they have an excuse then?
ressurrector 01-04-06, 10:58 PM	the parties Ac is Scout (12), Hexblade (11), and Druid/Wu-Jen (10). The first 2 are quite firm in their belief that with the limited armor they're allowed due to class, its best to wait for magic armor and try to get really nasty weapons in the meantime so they can kill opponents before opponents kill them. It's official, your players are metagaming. You said it yourself, they're not bothering with armor (the gold cost) untill they can get/find magical armor, they're using all their assets on weapons only. They're doing cost/benefit analysis on their characters lives, this is not roleplaying in the slightest. If they were roleplaying that they didn't want armor due to the weight and limited movement, I could understand, but this is simply hoarding assets untill they can buy 1-2 crazy items. They appear to WANT you to drop them freebie armor, I say just treat them as the level/CR that they are, and let them understand they can't play glass-jawed characters and expect everything to work out easy.
YRM 01-04-06, 11:07 PM	the parties Ac is Scout (12), Hexblade (11), and Druid/Wu-Jen (10). The first 2 are quite firm in their belief that with the limited armor they're allowed due to class, its best to wait for magic armor and try to get really nasty weapons in the meantime so they can kill opponents before opponents kill them. The thing is that they're primarily used to old school d and d. They played first and second editions growing up, and are used to the rules being fuzzy and not much spelled out, and being able to rely on luck and GM calls to keep things going. That doesnt really work in 3.5. You actually have rules governing most actions now, and the system works differently than it used to. Its seems to be more about modifers and adders, than "roll and hope the Dm is willing". To some extent Im hoping its just them getting used to the new system, and some really bad luck on dice rolls. In second edition we took on a Beholder Queen at 6th level and won. Mostly due to luck, and the party thinking of ideas not governed by the rules then. If we tried that in this edition of the game, they'd be munchies. I DMed for 3 years before my first 3-3.5 campaign wrapped up and another DM took a turn. In my first run as a player, having had all that DM experience, I set an example that you can not take gold or items with you when you die. Since we're in the Forgotten Realms, when you are in a big city, it's very possible to buy from a wide variety of lower cost magic items. My PC was constantly trying to find a helpful item, even if it was just a potion, and I would USE those potions. Better to waste an ability or potion than to find out that you ARE in the big fight of the night, and you DID NOT prep. Sure, I'd try to save abilities or potions for the "last fight", but, not at the expense of earlier fights. This example helped to break a habit in players where they'd have great things on their PC sheets, but forget that they had them. Players always hold onto wands until they become obsolete in power because they were trying to save the wand... well, now it's useless. I once told them that if my Monk went to sleep with any stunning attacks left before Level 6, then I really did something wrong that day. You can not take abilities, gold, or items with you when you die. Dying costs money, experience, and is a major setback. It's far better to spend 300GP on a potion that will save your life than to re-write a new PC sheet at 2 levels lower. Feel free to point your players to this thread. They might hate what I'm saying, but, it's 100% on the money. If they continue to play as they are, the message they are sending is that they do not expect you to kill them until they save up enough gold to buy UBER stuff. This Playstation mentality... that they can 'reset' if they die without losing anything, is not going to work out as the 3.5 rules are written. Put normal challenges at them, as if they were playing intelligently, and keep doing it until they properly react to the challenges, with these PCs or new PCs after these ones die.
Corrino 01-04-06, 11:26 PM	Only skimmed the replies, but take this into consideration too. The guy who usually DMs for us had our 4th level characters, all of which were rather weak (save for the tank), go about a "rumors list" start to our campaign. We, being stubborn and stupid, followed up on the most dangerous, deadly sounding rumors first (large band of outlaws massacring all who travel the northern path out of town; water sprite rumored to give immortality for 3sp, 3 gp, - possibility of death; large dragon spotted flying...) so on and so forth. We get lucky with the outlaws and kill all but one (before realizing that these "bushes who shoot sticks" are really camoflauged elves who guard the path, lol). Then we travel to the sprite. Tick it off, and a dragon comes out. It destroys everyone in the party save for the fighter (to like 15 HP) and myself (sorceror, at 0 HP). The fighter takes my Fleetfoot potions and runs back into town, where the city guard fells the dragon and save my life. Moral of the story: If you have a weak group, please try to steer them away from sudden mass death :)