Anyone have a DM's guide handy? (Challenge Ratings) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone have a DM's guide handy? (Challenge Ratings) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KingDutka
05-13-05, 04:01 PM I only have the online PDF version, and I lost my Adobe Reader. (I am re-downloading the reader and am at 95%). Anyway, my campaign is tomorrow night and I still don't have the thieve's guild occupied. This is largely due to the fact that I don't have a DM's guide to reference challenge ratings from.

I have a party of 4 Level 6 characters, one being a halfling Psion. What would make a good Pasha for the guild? (Obviously a thief type rogue, but what level, and should he have any classes in wizard or fighter as well?)

Keep in mind, this is a relatively new guild in Urmlaspyre, so they don't have their own wizard... yet. The guildhouse is basically your typical private mansion that was taken over by the thieves and boarded up. At best, the Pasha could have a fighter bodyguard. I can't remember what combined pair would make a good challenge for my party, but also remember that I want it to be a difficult challenge, using at least 50% of the party resources and quite possibly causing PC death. The Pasha should also be higher level than the fighter. Lastly, if there are any magic items in particular that a Pasha of a medium sized guild would have that would make him more formidable, include that too. Thanks!
Kaligrad
05-13-05, 04:59 PM The challenge rating system is designed around having 4 adventurers of equal (or approximately equal) level. For an even challenge, you use a creature/NPC of equivolent level. For instance, a moderate challenge for your group of 4 6th level characters is one 6th level creature, two 5th level creatures, 3-4 4th levels, and so on. For a pasha, given that he is the boss of the "dungeon", he should be 1-3 levels above the players, depending on how important he is to the campaign.

Excuse any errors, but I think I got that right.
Aeromus
05-13-05, 05:20 PM Make him a ranger 4/rogue 4 take the two weapon route.
WCH
05-13-05, 05:23 PM I would make the pasha lvl 7 and his bodyguard lvl 6. That would be a reasonably challenging, but still far from lethal, fight.

If you wanted it to be harder, though, I'd go with a lvl 7 pasha and a team of 4 lvl 4 or 5 bodyguards.
KingDutka
05-13-05, 06:33 PM The PC's are near the end of an ongoing quest. This is week number 10, and possibly the last session with this particular quest. (Their friends/mentors were stolen by orcs, brought to a cult of the dragon cave, transported to urmlaspyre, brought to another cult cave, and finally, sold to the thieve's guild because the dragon they were meant to be food for said he wanted human females.)

How the PC's go about the thieve's guild is up to them (sneak in and infiltrate, rush in swords drawn, walk in calmly and seek an audience with the pasha, etc).

The Pasha fight (if there is to be one) will probably be the last fight in this quest, and the PC's have a contact right in town that can revive the dead, so this fight should push them to their ultimate limits.

Also, the PC's have shown excellence in use of their abilities. They managed to take down a Level 9 Wizard and a Level 7 Fighter in one single fight without incident. (They lucked out when they made their saving throws against the Ice Storm spell, the damage would have killed 2 and seriously wound a third)

So, I was thinking that the Pasha should be like a Level 7 Rogue/Level 4 Fighter, and should be guarded by either a Level 9 Fighter, or some sort of creatures (maybe some trained panthers or something).

Final note, all characters (PC and NPC) are sorely underequipped compared to the suggested values in the books. None of the PC's have more than 1 magic item which is only a +1 weapon or Armor, and likewise, non of the npc's do either. This is going to make a big difference in how tough the challenges are compared to the DM's Guide suggestion. (ie. A Level 4 Fighter who is fully equipped for his level has a CR4, but the same fighter with nothing but plain, non-magical equipment would get his butt handed to him by the fully equipped one.)

The Pasha will definately have more magic items than the rest of the characters up to this point, which is where I intend to start getting the PC's caught up on their equipment. I've only been cheap with magic so far because the players needed a lesson in depending on getting equipment to augment their power. They needed to know that they can't be expecting cool new stuff everywhere they go, thus, when they do get stuff, they are extra excited about it. Also, this is my first time ever DM'ing, and I've never played pen and paper as a player before (lack of friends to play with in the past). So, mistakes were made and characters were cheated of good equipment. At any rate, at least it's not a "Monty Hall" campaign...
Palin the Wizard
05-13-05, 06:46 PM A level 11 enemy *and* a level 9? Against a party of 4 level 6 characters?

That's a TPK in the making.
KingDutka
05-13-05, 07:27 PM Did you not read my last post? The party already proved they could handle a LV9 Wiz and a Lv7 Fighter at the same time. They dispatched of the 2 rather quickly in fact, and with no incident. Besides, I also said that fighting was not their only option. They could just as easily talk to the Pasha and negotiate a deal to let the friends go, thereby avoiding conflict altogether.

Why is it that every single time I even mention an "encounter", everyone automatcially assumes there is gonna be a fight? I mean, why does everyone think everything has to resort to violence all the time? This is precisely why I threw the characters into the last dungeon. They were warned by an inside man to stay to the west side of the cave, this was for their own safety. If they were to venture to the east, they'd have found a Purple Dragon, 3 high level wizards, 4 medium level wizards, and about 2 dozen fighters and rogues, all at once. Why would I throw that in there? Because they exist, and PC's shoudl be aware that there ARE going to be challenges that are beyond them. This forces the players into making wise decision, and to use all of their skills to the best of their abilities.

You also forget that the party has a Psion. My little guy (or as we like to call him "Crouching Halfling, Hidden Psion") is capable of doing up to 60 damage with a single mind power. Add in a LV6 Sorcerer, LV6 Rogue, and a LV5 Ranger/LV1 Wizard, and you got a kick butt team! (The ranger is taking wizard levels to learn spells which will help him in combat. ie. Shield, Mage Armor, True Strike, Stoneskin, etc) We thought of calling him a "Power Ranger" but A. Didn't want to get sued, B. It sounds a bit cheesy (though funny) C. We decided on "Ranger Mage".

Anyway, the point is, this particular party is very powerful, and, the players play their characters VERY well. They have surprised me on nearly every single session we have played, coming up with some way of overcoming obstacles which I was not even prepared for. Also, if the characters do die, no sweat off my back. :P
KingDutka
05-13-05, 07:33 PM Just so you know, the fight I referred to before had a CR 10. The party was all level 5 at the time. Now they are level 6. I don't see any reason why they can't take on a CR 12. (LV11 Rogue + LV9 Fighter = CR12).

If the whole party was level 6 and they take on a CR6, then they should be able to overcome the challenge with little to no incident, and use a small portion of their resources. If you want a single battle to be really hard, you up the CR 1-3 levels. Also, who says the PC's don't just run?

Not every encounter was meant to be a fight. Not every fight was meant to be won. Players shouldn't try to kill every single enemy they come across. Live to fight another day.
WCH
05-13-05, 07:42 PM Party level + 6 is freaking enormous. They'd have to be very lucky to win if it comes to a fight.
kirellagen
05-13-05, 07:52 PM Very lucky or very smart. I once had a party of PCs that were level 3 and took down a CR 10 with a little planning. never underestimate the deviousness of the PCs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KingDutka 05-13-05, 04:01 PM	I only have the online PDF version, and I lost my Adobe Reader. (I am re-downloading the reader and am at 95%). Anyway, my campaign is tomorrow night and I still don't have the thieve's guild occupied. This is largely due to the fact that I don't have a DM's guide to reference challenge ratings from. I have a party of 4 Level 6 characters, one being a halfling Psion. What would make a good Pasha for the guild? (Obviously a thief type rogue, but what level, and should he have any classes in wizard or fighter as well?) Keep in mind, this is a relatively new guild in Urmlaspyre, so they don't have their own wizard... yet. The guildhouse is basically your typical private mansion that was taken over by the thieves and boarded up. At best, the Pasha could have a fighter bodyguard. I can't remember what combined pair would make a good challenge for my party, but also remember that I want it to be a difficult challenge, using at least 50% of the party resources and quite possibly causing PC death. The Pasha should also be higher level than the fighter. Lastly, if there are any magic items in particular that a Pasha of a medium sized guild would have that would make him more formidable, include that too. Thanks!
Kaligrad 05-13-05, 04:59 PM	The challenge rating system is designed around having 4 adventurers of equal (or approximately equal) level. For an even challenge, you use a creature/NPC of equivolent level. For instance, a moderate challenge for your group of 4 6th level characters is one 6th level creature, two 5th level creatures, 3-4 4th levels, and so on. For a pasha, given that he is the boss of the "dungeon", he should be 1-3 levels above the players, depending on how important he is to the campaign. Excuse any errors, but I think I got that right.
Aeromus 05-13-05, 05:20 PM	Make him a ranger 4/rogue 4 take the two weapon route.
WCH 05-13-05, 05:23 PM	I would make the pasha lvl 7 and his bodyguard lvl 6. That would be a reasonably challenging, but still far from lethal, fight. If you wanted it to be harder, though, I'd go with a lvl 7 pasha and a team of 4 lvl 4 or 5 bodyguards.
KingDutka 05-13-05, 06:33 PM	The PC's are near the end of an ongoing quest. This is week number 10, and possibly the last session with this particular quest. (Their friends/mentors were stolen by orcs, brought to a cult of the dragon cave, transported to urmlaspyre, brought to another cult cave, and finally, sold to the thieve's guild because the dragon they were meant to be food for said he wanted human females.) How the PC's go about the thieve's guild is up to them (sneak in and infiltrate, rush in swords drawn, walk in calmly and seek an audience with the pasha, etc). The Pasha fight (if there is to be one) will probably be the last fight in this quest, and the PC's have a contact right in town that can revive the dead, so this fight should push them to their ultimate limits. Also, the PC's have shown excellence in use of their abilities. They managed to take down a Level 9 Wizard and a Level 7 Fighter in one single fight without incident. (They lucked out when they made their saving throws against the Ice Storm spell, the damage would have killed 2 and seriously wound a third) So, I was thinking that the Pasha should be like a Level 7 Rogue/Level 4 Fighter, and should be guarded by either a Level 9 Fighter, or some sort of creatures (maybe some trained panthers or something). Final note, all characters (PC and NPC) are sorely underequipped compared to the suggested values in the books. None of the PC's have more than 1 magic item which is only a +1 weapon or Armor, and likewise, non of the npc's do either. This is going to make a big difference in how tough the challenges are compared to the DM's Guide suggestion. (ie. A Level 4 Fighter who is fully equipped for his level has a CR4, but the same fighter with nothing but plain, non-magical equipment would get his butt handed to him by the fully equipped one.) The Pasha will definately have more magic items than the rest of the characters up to this point, which is where I intend to start getting the PC's caught up on their equipment. I've only been cheap with magic so far because the players needed a lesson in depending on getting equipment to augment their power. They needed to know that they can't be expecting cool new stuff everywhere they go, thus, when they do get stuff, they are extra excited about it. Also, this is my first time ever DM'ing, and I've never played pen and paper as a player before (lack of friends to play with in the past). So, mistakes were made and characters were cheated of good equipment. At any rate, at least it's not a "Monty Hall" campaign...
Palin the Wizard 05-13-05, 06:46 PM	A level 11 enemy and a level 9? Against a party of 4 level 6 characters? That's a TPK in the making.
KingDutka 05-13-05, 07:27 PM	Did you not read my last post? The party already proved they could handle a LV9 Wiz and a Lv7 Fighter at the same time. They dispatched of the 2 rather quickly in fact, and with no incident. Besides, I also said that fighting was not their only option. They could just as easily talk to the Pasha and negotiate a deal to let the friends go, thereby avoiding conflict altogether. Why is it that every single time I even mention an "encounter", everyone automatcially assumes there is gonna be a fight? I mean, why does everyone think everything has to resort to violence all the time? This is precisely why I threw the characters into the last dungeon. They were warned by an inside man to stay to the west side of the cave, this was for their own safety. If they were to venture to the east, they'd have found a Purple Dragon, 3 high level wizards, 4 medium level wizards, and about 2 dozen fighters and rogues, all at once. Why would I throw that in there? Because they exist, and PC's shoudl be aware that there ARE going to be challenges that are beyond them. This forces the players into making wise decision, and to use all of their skills to the best of their abilities. You also forget that the party has a Psion. My little guy (or as we like to call him "Crouching Halfling, Hidden Psion") is capable of doing up to 60 damage with a single mind power. Add in a LV6 Sorcerer, LV6 Rogue, and a LV5 Ranger/LV1 Wizard, and you got a kick butt team! (The ranger is taking wizard levels to learn spells which will help him in combat. ie. Shield, Mage Armor, True Strike, Stoneskin, etc) We thought of calling him a "Power Ranger" but A. Didn't want to get sued, B. It sounds a bit cheesy (though funny) C. We decided on "Ranger Mage". Anyway, the point is, this particular party is very powerful, and, the players play their characters VERY well. They have surprised me on nearly every single session we have played, coming up with some way of overcoming obstacles which I was not even prepared for. Also, if the characters do die, no sweat off my back. :P
KingDutka 05-13-05, 07:33 PM	Just so you know, the fight I referred to before had a CR 10. The party was all level 5 at the time. Now they are level 6. I don't see any reason why they can't take on a CR 12. (LV11 Rogue + LV9 Fighter = CR12). If the whole party was level 6 and they take on a CR6, then they should be able to overcome the challenge with little to no incident, and use a small portion of their resources. If you want a single battle to be really hard, you up the CR 1-3 levels. Also, who says the PC's don't just run? Not every encounter was meant to be a fight. Not every fight was meant to be won. Players shouldn't try to kill every single enemy they come across. Live to fight another day.
WCH 05-13-05, 07:42 PM	Party level + 6 is freaking enormous. They'd have to be very lucky to win if it comes to a fight.
kirellagen 05-13-05, 07:52 PM	Very lucky or very smart. I once had a party of PCs that were level 3 and took down a CR 10 with a little planning. never underestimate the deviousness of the PCs.