Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 06-23-06, 12:09 PM	Mostly just curious what your impressions are regarding them... having used them in your campaign... They seem like a cool, flavorful idea... but I wouldn't want to unbalance things... or kill the fun of acquiring new weapons, etc... (though the latter probably wouldn't happen, as the Legacy weapons evolve and are generally powerful-seeming ...so the player would probably be content to stick with the one weapon) :) Note: If I did go ahead and use them in my campaign, I'd eventually make sure both of my players (it's a 2-PC campaign) end up with a Legacy weapon... (so it won't be a question of "party" balance, but more a question of overall/campaign balance).
Kreistor1 06-23-06, 02:41 PM	Seen them. Not impressed. The problem with them is that you, the DM, have to ensure the situations that advance the weapon come up in the plot. If the player needs to "slay an undead of equal or greater CR", then you better make certain that a valid creature is encountered and in such a way that the other players don't charge in and interfere with the trial. In general, it is easier and more effective to just buy the weapon you want and upgrade it through cold, hard, reliable cash. I took the concept, didn't buy the book, and introduced my own version of it for my campaign. I ensured the weapon was tied directly to the flow of the overall story arc, and that the player could, with little difficulty, find the trial if he went looking. It is, though, troublesome and adds a layer of storyline that you may not wish to deal with. The biggest problem is balancing the trials. The one above, which I encountered, was the undead slaying. We were already level 4 when my character got the weapon. And I never did anything about activating it. The DM and othr players were confused, so I stated quite simply... "I've run some models of my wizard trying to kill a CR4 undead. He might be able to kill one, if he encounters it in exactly the right way, but 90% of the time, I get waxed and hard. Quite simply, I can't beat the trial now without a lot of fudging by the DM, and every level it gets worse. Do you realize a CR6 is a Gray Render zombie with 100 HP? A CR 7 is a vampire with Dominate. I might have had a chance at Level 1, but now? No thanks. It's a +1 Longsword to me, and that's it." So eventually the sword made its way to the fighter. The Dm and one of the other players modelled the fight at CR 6 against a GRZ, and it came down to this: if he took the Weretouched Master PrC level, he lost, but if he took the fighter level he won. It was that simple. And, in the end, the weapon had the -ve side effect of -1 to all attack rolls. Say, hunh? Since all it did was make the weapon Undead Bane, he hit better with the weapon before he enabled it than after.
tsuyoshikentsu 06-23-06, 03:27 PM	They're ridiculously UNDERPOWERED.
INeedNoSalt 06-23-06, 03:44 PM	I don' mean to interfere, but what book're these in?
olshanski_home 06-23-06, 03:49 PM	I've reviewed them and I think the mechanics behind them are crap. If you don't care that some items cannot be accurately priced (say you are running a low-magic game), I think it is not a bad idea to have weapons that scale with the power of the wielder. Unfortunately, any item with such properties is worth about 2000 gp to a 2nd level person and 200,000gp to a 15th level person... you just cannot balance the cost of the item with a true gameworld in which magic is plentiful and for sale.
Jherid 06-23-06, 03:50 PM	I don' mean to interfere, but what book're these in? Weapons of Legacy can be found in...Weapons of Legacy. :P
ShadowDragon8685 06-23-06, 07:07 PM	I must agree... Granting an attack penalty on a warrior's weapon or a slot penalty to a wizard makes no sense. At the VERY best, it is as good as a magical item you could buy at the same level. At the worst, it's such a significant nerf that you're better off using them as a +1 weapon. I think when I use them, I'm just going to ignore the penalties. That might make it worth having as opposed to, say, just buying your own weapon. Another thing that annoys me about the weapons is the cost. I mean, some rites could honestly have a cost associated with them. An ascetic's prayer should not be one of them. Where's the money cost in that? It should cost something deeper, not mere gold! Or this one. Shishi-O. You are first required to travel to the bridge where it's first owner died, and pray to his spirit. The second ritual says you have to go to find a demon that is exerting an influence over someone, mundane or magical, and remove it permenantly. The third ritual says that you must travel to the Beastlands and offer sincerely to return the sword to it's original owner. Where's the cost there? 40,500 GP? Last I checked, even a Gate cost less than that. What, are you supposed to ritually offer to return the sword, and (if he dosen't take it) give him a huge lump of treasure instead? I'd really prefer an XP cost than a GP cost.
GingerbreadMan 06-23-06, 11:19 PM	They're ridiculously UNDERPOWERED. the beautiful thing about being a DM is that you can adjust them so they arent :cool:
ShadowDragon8685 06-23-06, 11:26 PM	the beautiful thing about being a DM is that you can adjust them so they arent :cool: Yes, but I didn't shell out 35 freaking dollars for a book whose material I'd have to go over with a fine-toothed comb. I can do ANYTHING on my own, I pay WotC for my convienance!
Pallin Rahl 06-24-06, 01:06 AM	Hmm... sounds like I might be better-served taking the concept and doing my own thing with it. ...without the penalty side of things... Oh well... :)
Entheogenic 06-24-06, 04:11 AM	It's great flavor, but I agree that most of the samples provided are not really worth it. However, if you're running a high powered campaign, the DM can make some really awesome items by following the same concept. I've used them to great player enjoyment in the campaign I'm currently running. Entheogenic
GingerbreadMan 06-24-06, 11:36 AM	Yes, but I didn't shell out 35 freaking dollars for a book whose material I'd have to go over with a fine-toothed comb. I can do ANYTHING on my own, I pay WotC for my convienance! ohh i dont own that book either, I just made my own system that works well. For my weapons, when you as a PC decide to do something amazingly BA with it, I give it something new. The PC never knows exactly what the weapon does, but they see it in my descriptions. For example: Ive only given out one so far in this campaign, PCs are lvls 8 and 9. The PC wields a masterworked +2 greatsword (all he knows for certain) but whenever he rolls a 1 or 2 (critically failing in my book) he "feels guidance from some unknown force" and does not critically fail (ie not fall over or damage an ally or himself) He knows the sword is a family ancestral sword, and the family's last heir recently died (that was the quest they performed for the sword itself) now last night, this character went into a frenzied rage and stuck his sword into a troll, which didnt die, then lifted it up (troll on it) and slammed it into the next troll, killing them both with a crit. It was so crazy that the sword now grants bulls strength on criticals. I feel that for a lvl 9 character, being unable to critically fail and gain a free bulls strength on top of a +2 is great. (compared to other weapons they have at least)
Hochiu 06-24-06, 11:20 PM	It's not that they're underpowered. A lot of people simply look at the negatives taken for the weapons of legacy and assume that they're underpowered. So what if a sword imposes a negative modifier on your attack roll? Look at what else it can do? There are a million and one different powerful abilities that you can gain from having a WoL. Weapons of Legacy actually allow a character to expand on the weapon as far as they want to go (to the point of having it fully available to them). They don't even have to take the Legacy Wielder (or whatever) Prestige Class -- it's just an extra oomph for people who want to specialize in unique weapons. To me, Weapons of Legacy give you the power of unique magic items without having that feeling of it being just another weapon. It has far more flavor and the book actually provided a unique way for characters to interact with the history of the world it's placed in. Sure, you can do that with unique magic items and artifacts, but the players aren't going to really know about it unless they take the time to do it on their own. Weapons of Legacy more or less requires you to know something about it, enough that the characters who want to further delve into the history of the world and the characters from the past. You must learn about a weapon before you can access its powers and such. For me, that's just great. It makes it better than some +1 keen wounding longsword because there isn't one of its like anywhere else. Does this mean everyone likes it? No. Does this mean that it fits with everyone's game? of course not. To assume that it does is folly. I don't know what your game is like so I cant give you a good honest answer other than what I personally feel about the Weapons of Legacy material. Hope my opinions helped.
Kessalin Talira 06-24-06, 11:51 PM	Something else to consider might be the Legendary Weapons in Unearthed Arcana. I haven't been through the rules in a while, so I can't really comment on balance or power, but they might be an alternative. From the quick glance that I just took, it seems like the same concept as legacy items, in about half the levels.
ShadowDragon8685 06-25-06, 12:00 AM	Dude, Weapons of Legacy are underpowered. They do nothing for you that an equavalant GP cost of magic items won't do, and they penalize your important attributes too. A little UMD, a little creative item selection, and you're golden. And, really. Look at the people who have crunched their math. They actually do better without the weapon than with it. They don't even access very unique abilities at all - they take straight from the ordinary spell list, for pete's sake!
danielinthewolvesden 06-25-06, 12:21 AM	I heard about the book, thought it was a cool idea. Soooo.....I bought the book. I want my money back. If you were in a (shudder) Low magic campaign, but the DM let you use it, and you were a warrior tye, maybe.
Kazeofwinds 06-25-06, 12:30 AM	I'd say take the penalties away, and they'd be roughly worth the costs they have.
Entheogenic 06-25-06, 01:06 AM	Here's an example of a legacy weapon I made for my high power game, just to give people an idea... Level Attack Penalty HP Loss Skill Point Loss Abilities 5 1 +1 flaming/+1 frost lynxpaw 6 Desert’s Child 7 -1 Elemental Claw 8 -1 Dance of Fire and Ice 9 2 Cat’s Fall 10 Mass Cat’s Grace 1/day 11 +2 flaming/+2 frost lynxpaw 12 -2 Fires of the Day and Night 13 Cat’s Eye 14 4 Dance of Fire and Ice 15 -2 Mass Cat’s Grace 2/day 16 +3 keen flaming/+3 keen frost lynxpaw 17 5 Sun’s Heat and Moon’s Cold 18 Dance of Fire and Ice 19 -3 Dancing +4 keen flaming/ +4 keen frost lynxpaw 20 -3 Dust of the Desert Least Powers: Desert’s Child (Su): The wielder of Claws of the Desert takes to the heat of the desert days and the bitter chill of the desert nights as though born to it. Beginning at 5th level, you constantly benefit from the effects of an endure elements spell (caster level 5th) when wielding Claws of the Desert Elemental Claw (Su): At 6th level and higher, by swinging one of the claws in a broad arc in front of yourself and speaking a command word, you cause it to spray a fan of flame as with the burning hands spell (for the flame claw) or a similar spell that instead sprays a fan of dangerously cold air (for the ice claw). You can use this ability a total three times per day, spread between the two claws however you wish. The save DC is 14, or 12 + your Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. Caster level 5th. Dance of Fire and Ice (Su): At 7th level, Claws of the Desert grants you a +2 inherent bonus to Dexterity while you wield it. Cat’s Fall (Sp): Forged by the catfolk of the Southern Deserts, Claws of the Desert grants you some of the benefits enjoyed by your even more feline kindred. At 9th level, if you begin to fall while wielding Claws of the Desert, you are immediately subject to a feather fall spell affecting you only. You may fall up to 100 feet per day in this fashion, split up among as many uses as you like. This ability is suppressible as a free action (you may fall normally if you wish). Lesser Powers: Fan the Flames (Su): Beginning at 12th level, once per day by placing one of the claws of Claws of the Desert into an element, you can create a great burst of elemental power. By placing the fire claw into any flame, you can produce a fireball as the spell centered on you (though you take no damage from the effect. By placing the frost claw in contact with a bit of ice, you can produce a ball of dangerously cold air and bits of ice, which deals damage as a fireball, replacing fire damage with cold damage. In either case, the save DC is 15 + your Charisma modifier. Caster level 10th. This ability is usable once per day for each claw. Cat’s Eye (Su): Beginning at 13th level, you gain a cat’s ability to see in the dark. You gain Darkvision out to 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision from another source, use the better value. Dance of Fire and Ice (Su): At 14th level, Claws of the Desert grants you a further +2 inherent bonus to Dexterity while you wield it, for a total of +4 Greater Powers: Sun’s Heat and Moon’s Cold (Su): At 17th level, you gain final control over Claws of the Desert’s elemental magic. Once per day as a free action, you may cause a melee attack to trigger an elemental explosion. If you choose to strike with the frost head, Claws of the Desert deals normal melee damage, but rather than the extra damage for the frost effect, treat the attack as if it had also delivered an Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere spell (PHB 258), though you take no damage from the effect. If you choose to strike with the flaming head, a similar effect results, though with a ball of white-hot fire, with the following changes: Instead of damaging Elemental (water) creatures, this spell deals extra damage to Elemental (cold) creatures. Instead of freezing water and having a chance to freeze the target to the ground, all flammable objects in the blast radius catch fire. Living things and attended objects must make a DC 25 reflex save or catch fire themselves, taking damage equal to half the initial damage on the following round. This ability is usable once per day total (not for each head). Dance of Fire and Ice (Su): At 14th level, Claws of the Desert grants you a further +2 inherent bonus to Dexterity while you wield it, for a total of +6 Dust of the Desert (Sp): At 20th level, once per day when you issue the command word and gesture with Claws of the Desert, you cause its tip to emit a thin green ray that can reduce one creature to sand blowing in the wind, as the disintegrate spell. The save DC is 19, or 17 + your Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. Caster level 15th.
Hochiu 06-25-06, 01:15 AM	Dude, Weapons of Legacy are underpowered. They do nothing for you that an equavalant GP cost of magic items won't do, and they penalize your important attributes too. A little UMD, a little creative item selection, and you're golden. And, really. Look at the people who have crunched their math. They actually do better without the weapon than with it. They don't even access very unique abilities at all - they take straight from the ordinary spell list, for pete's sake! Did I ever say I use the Weapons as written? I rarely ever use anything but core mechanics as written, I homebrew most everything else. If I gave that inclination, I'm sorry. But Weapons of Legacy are no different. And what number-crunching are we talking about? Because I'm fairly certain I could dig up a post or some comment that states that magic items and WoL are about the same, statistically. Show me your sources, and I'll show you mine (if I can find them again, :P)
ShadowDragon8685 06-25-06, 12:35 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9461202&postcount=2
SurfingMonkey 06-25-06, 02:11 PM	I bought the book, I love weapons in RPG. At first I inserted the weapons that I prefered and that were most apropriate for my game. But I soon realised that I needed to make more, because I have three Great Sword wielding players. First of all, earlyer posts are right, this book's content need revising by the DM. Is it worth purchasing.... :rolleyes: It depends. I would have been verry disapointed (as opposed to slightly disapointed) if they had not included rules to make your own Weapons of Legacy. On the subject of the penalty's... they suck! Gamplay wise they are not that bad. Come to think of it, a sword that gives you +2 charisma, is realy good. (for a cleric/pal/fist of uzriel) Instead of using your neclace slot, you can wear an amulet of nat. armor. for example. So having penalty's is ok. And the powers stay active even when sheathed. But let me tell you your players wont see it like that. And the GP cost is simply ridiculous, in a roleplay concept. How do you explain to your player right after he helped an NPC to atone from a sin, that he hase to dish out 2500gp, and loose stats, in exchange for a +2 weapon with a few powers. After my first player activated his WoL. The others stoped pursuing the quests to activate them. They did not wish to spend the money and stats on an unproven item. They would rather pool theyr money to have the Wisard craft a want of fireball. So I reimbursed that one player and cleared the weapons of malusses. Now they are worthy of the name Weapon of Legacy. My other players have started to quest for the weapons. Another issue with the book is that the weapons are far from equal. Some simply suck or have realy hard quests. Other like Merikel, are so good, and the encouter is a few Gnolls. So in coclusion, I like the book, but it could have been way better. Dont buy it if you want material ready to play out of the book.