Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zeteg 02-18-06, 11:34 PM	I've always had a problem killing my players. I mean, they're about to die, and "somehow" the monsters just do enough damage NOT to kill them. Yes, a bit of hacking on my part, but it's really sad when someone dies, and they have to make a new character. Does anyone find that is slows down the game? I mean, they always want to make a new character... urgh. Another problem, is the types of monsters that I use. I can give them fair monsters to fight, and if I play my "easy DM", they get along fine, and my players finish off the monsters without dying. However, it makes it seem as if the monsters have no intelligence. "Let's just attack random adventurers and hope we win. Let's not converge our attacks or use tactics." Do you always make monsters use tactics, when they have a decent intelligence? How much tactics? I don't mean prior planning... just intelligence in a battle. I'm almost sure that my group of four level 10s could easily be killed by a CR lower than their level. And Death spells? It just seems so... "Dammit, I failed my save; now I die." Any advice?
Demon Lightfoot 02-18-06, 11:44 PM	I never have a problem killing players, especially if they eat the last slice of pizza. I've got a dozen buried in shallow graves in the woods out back. Wait...
VirgilCaine 02-18-06, 11:57 PM	I have an entrenching tool, lots of Hefty Bags, a stainless steel bone saw, a nice big crawlspace under my house, as well as the best kitchen knives money can buy. Never had a problem.
RK)13 02-18-06, 11:59 PM	The fun of the game depends on the players feeling that their characters are fighting through a dangerous situation, and if you remove death, you're removing a lot of the danger. Ultimately you're robbing the players of part of their fun, because they now know that their characters can do anything they want and not die from it, as you'll always be there to save them. Its akin to playing video games on invincible mode. Sure you win the day, run to the right, and save the princess... but there really wasn't any challenge along the way and the game goes into the "do not play" pile. Basically, by avoiding killing characters, you're robbing them of their adventure. As for death effects and the like, usually by the time the characters face those, their saves against these effects are so good that they rarely come into play. if you don't like them, however, don't use them... that simple. I am not saying go out of your way to kill a character... fudging is sometimes good. Don't avoid death, though. There really isn't anything heroic about a paladin bravely facing down a Tarrasque to let his party members go free when the Tarrasque suddenly has a heart attack. if their character dies, ask the player to go aside and make a new one while the rest of the party continues to adventure. Maybe they can get his current character brought back, so the player won't have to make a new character. If you are going to have trouble introducing the new character on the fly, bring him in next session. As for tactics, if you play your creatures intelligently, then your players will have a greater feeling of accomplishment if/when they overcome that challenge. They may roll their eyes at yet another encounter with orcs, but not if those orcs set up a shield barrier to allow their sniping archers the longest time to pick off the characters. Those types of encounters aren't just part of the adventure, they become the things your players talk about years afterward. "Remember the time those Goblins ambushed us and my fighter went down in the first two round, leaving your mage to get really lucky and kill one with his dagger?".
Horatio Hornblower 02-19-06, 01:44 AM	If a player can't make it to the game and I'm running the character as an NPC then I go out of my way not to kill that character. Otherwise, it's player beware. The risk of death is what makes encounters exciting. If the players know you won't kill their characters then there is no tension during an encounter. Death is not the handicap it use to be. Characters can be raised. If the party doesn't have enough money to pay for a raise then it's adventure hook time. A cleric high enough level to cast raise dead has to have something for the party to do. I try to make PC death uncommon in my game, but it has to happen sometimes to keep the risks in the game legit.
Kerri_Evanwood 02-19-06, 02:16 AM	I have a big problem killing my players; they're my roommates. That and it's murder. Their characters, on the other hand, are cannon fodder. Demon Lightfoot beat me to it...
Marvos 02-19-06, 02:48 AM	My philosophy for killing players is this: A player should not be killed at the whim of the dice. If the players are killed just because of a bad (or good) roll, I would fudge that roll. On the other hand, if the player is doing something stupid (or heroic) I won't fudge dice rolls, because the PCs should know better. So if my players are fighting a bugbear or somehting and the bugbear gets a crit on them, it will not kill them. On the other hand, if the PCs are fleeing a ghoul town with a hullathoin on their tails and one PC decides to be "heroic" by facing the thing while his comrades flee, they will die.
Draktaven 02-19-06, 05:29 AM	I used to have a problem with it, and I still kinda do. But, I feel that the possibility of death is an ever present danger that adds to the immersion in the game. I think, over time, I have weened most my players from the phobia of death. Meaning that they realize that death is no longer the end. Losing a level sucks, but you can always gain it back. I don't try to kill my players, but I don't put in an effort not to. If a player is about to die, I make sure every rule has been observed and if hes dead, then hes dead. Alot of people don't like players dieing because of bad roles, but I feel what works for the PC works for the NPC. Though I try to avoid cheap deaths (like the first room of a dungeon some one sets off a trap that instantly kills you). I used to think that death by dice was cheap to, but then I thought of all the really hard encounters my players have skirted through because of a well timed critical. If they can gain a mass of treasure and exp from the role of the dice, they can lose it to. Don't mistake this attitude as DM vs. Players because its not. My players are now experienced and mature, and I no longer babysit them.
Fraser1986 02-19-06, 07:52 AM	I'm not the most experienced DM, but when i'm playing i favour Marvos's approach. I want to feel as if there is real danger, but equally i don't want a character i really enjoy playing to be killed in some back alley on the whim of a dice. I like to think that if you play your character sensibly and dont take any stupid risks he should have a good chance of surviving to retirement. (I know this would seem unlikely, but i like to think of the player characters as somehow special, even if they dont know it) Of coarse, if someone does something incredibly stupid or reckless then they cant complain when the worst happens
Dragonlover 02-19-06, 08:57 AM	I don't have a problem with killing them off, be it a heroic end or an iginomus(sp?) one. Obviously I'd prefer them to die heroically in a climactic fight against the BBEG, but sometimes the random kobold gets lucky. Dragonlover
White_Wizard 02-19-06, 09:16 AM	Well, charcters die. It's something every good adventurer should know: adventures are nasty, uncomfortable things. And there's always a decent risk of horrible, screaming death. Otherwise they wouldn't be properly called adventures. They would be road trips. Don't be afraid to kill characters: it's what the mosters exist for. Now consider that a typical monster's life-span it's measured in rounds. Don't mind about what the Monster Manual says about: every single monster in D&D lives only long enough to be killed while trying to kill player characters. So it would be nice for them to try it seriously. There's nothing thrilling in a fake murder attempt. "Hey man! We're here to try to kill you, but relax: we're only faking it!" That's doesn't sound very threatening, does it? Also consider that if they feel really in danger, players will like what they do: they will feel like doing something out of the ordinary and the DM will get the merit of it. It's always a satisfaction when players still remember when you put them against a five headed hydra tamed by the drow which they had to fight along with the hydra in order to gain the antydote to the resistent-to-spells-poison which afflicts their friend at the village. Or when, at the end of a game session during which they had to survive a catastrophic flooding in the dungeon they say: "Phew! That was real fun!" Otherwise it's not that good when you save a PC's life and the player understands that some cheating was involved: it really ruins the game's spirit. If characters don't risk to die, then nothing will thrill the players. And besides, when a character sacrifices his own life to save his fellows it's a moment to be reminded for. It's something very fun and exciting to play. And yes, monsters should use tactics appropriate to their intelligence level. Orcs are likely to rush in and doing really a few that is not hacking and slashing with a bit of thumping. Drow are entirely different: when facing drow the players should walk watching twice every shadow, not trusting what they see; drow make a lot of use of devious and complex and scheming tactics, so players expect them when they face drow rather than orcs. And there is also everything in between. Humans are clever, but they are not likely to go for complex and elaborate tactics like drow, goblins are savage, but they use their intelligence more than orcs, and so do cobolds. It' challenging to make an encounter with cobolds worth of being playes, but it's also very satisfying when players ebjoy a fight with them. And that can only happen if the fight goes out of the ordinary "roll, hit, roll, x damage...." Sometimes, though, cheating may happen but it's something between you and the dice rolling, it has to happen only behind the DM screen and players must never know of it, nor suspecting it, nor thinking it, nor even knowing that cheating is possible in D&D.
Pitr 02-19-06, 09:17 AM	Folk die... sometimes they are heroic deaths, sometimes dumb("watch out that roc is falling down!" (reflex 10, miss)... lets see the damage... 18d6 due to body mass and falling time... bye bye dwarven cleric...)... i roll the dice in front of my players and that is the only way they accept that in 12 rolls 4 are 20s... criticals are common... so they avoid melee... weird way to play D&D but at least they are carefull... Sometimes a roll with the right spell can also be a mess... necro casts finger of death dc... rolls a 20... bye bye paladin... death is our companion... and her shadow should always be felt... he cold touch should always be near... and her whispering promises should always be listen... it keeps players on their toes... otherwise... how hard would it be to save a kingdom, rescue someone, kill the brigands or erradicate the undead king?
White_Wizard 02-19-06, 09:30 AM	Well, I was a player when something happened to me: we met Errtu. Yes, the Balor from RA Salvatore's novels. I don't know why, but he had a critical threat of 2-20 (!) and hit my AC of 21 with every result except 1 (because it was automatic failure). Balors have vorpal longswords (we were playing 3.0), so I had my head cut off at the very first round of battle. Our cleric casts Pure Resurrection on me, I try to attack (strong barbarian with at least -I don't remember exactly- +20 to hit plus rage), but the DM tells me I hit only upon the roll of a natural 20 and only because we were using the automatic hit rule. Obviously I miss and get beheaded on the very next action from that fake Errtu. Well, this is an example of how players shouldn't die.
LCD2YOU 02-19-06, 10:27 AM	Demon Lightfoot beat me to it... Ah, sniff, sniff. Such a shame. Maybe next time you could be first. I can't kill my players as two of them are my teenage daughters. Wait a minute.... Hmmm....
celtredleg 02-19-06, 10:42 AM	I have killed a lot of charecters over the years, but despite great provocation, I have not knocked off a single player. Yet...... Takeing an idea from an old dragon mag, I started keeping obits on dead PCs. It got to have a lot of pages before I quit. rereading it does bring back many fond memories.
Adlar Hodge 02-19-06, 10:51 AM	My group came across a Large Red Dragon. They were 5th level at the time. Doing quite well the Dragon moved around a lot, sometimes going back to it's horde to use items to heal itself (it's horde was up out of sight from the PCs at the time of battle). Near the end the Dragon breathed fire from above, and the party wasn't 60 ft from each other so all of them got caught in the blast. The Rogue, who I thought would make the save for sure, failed by 2. Sure I felt bad because he played his character well...but he rolled up a neutral halfling Cleric (of Nerull mind you), which he plays quite well. Sure it sucks, especially when the player is playing a class key to exploration (Ranger, Rogue, and Cleric), but sometimes it adds to the adventure when characters die.
Warslayngawds 02-19-06, 11:04 AM	I'm with the group that tries to keep "meaningless" character deaths to a minimum. Especially until the party is of high enough level to deal with it(raise dead at 9th). But now I'm also playing a new campaign by new rules( rolling combat rolls and some enemy skill checks in front of the players). This makes fudging a bit more complicated, but it also adds to the level of excitement and sense of danger, as many others have stated. The most memorable games for me are the ones where there was mortal danger. Whether we lived through it or not. There was our 4th level party standing underneath the Ancient Black Dragon, our breaths caught in our throats for that one( player and character alike). Later in the adventure our entire party was wiped out by the greater medusa(2E), but the fight was still a blast, even though my characters went down in the first round and I was little but a spectator. We remember when someone does something dumb or incredibly brilliant, but more so when it actually means something. By letting them die(when it comes up) you add that to the game.
Toran_A_Sunder 02-19-06, 11:11 AM	I just want to say to the OP that I have the same exact problem. You're not alone guy
dungeonmasterblog 02-19-06, 11:21 AM	I try to avoid killing off characters when I can, and when I do, I make sure it's a monumental event and the character goes out in style. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Faithless the Wonder Boy 02-19-06, 11:42 AM	This is actually a serious problem for me, because I don't allow "resurrection" spells as per written. Or rather, you can cast them, but you need to go on a quest for the soul and convince an Advanced Marut that it should be brought back, usually in return for bringing it another soul that has been evading death in return. Unless resurrection magic is performed within a certain amount of time, the soul always departs. So, it's complicated. That said, I try to make character death special, and I try to never allow it to be unexpected. I make myself realize that in any particular case or situation, one of the characters could die, and I try and find the most interesting and memorable way that could happen, without it being simply anti-climactic. Okay, that sounded more morbid than I intended it to. Basically what I'm saying is that I never (or very rarely) fudge rolls to save characters. Instead, I fudge scenarios so that if they're going to die anyways, it's not going to be, "okay, you botched your roll against the orc, and it stabbed you with the spear for 12 hit points. Oh, that kills you? Okay, the next orc..." I like a struggle, even when I know how the outcome will be, and so far my players have liked it, too. I once had a similar scenario to the above - a fighter who was low on hit points botched a roll against a dying orc when he shouldn't have (it was his second or third botch, the orc shouldn't have been much trouble, but these things happen), and I knew that there was a good chance that he would die if the orc hit with his spear. Sure enough, the orc hit, but I made it into a struggle... lots of buildup as the staggering orc lunges forward, then allowing a check to "catch the weapon" because the orc was staggering so much, then the two dying characters pushing at each other, the fighter attempting to keep the orc from shoving the spear in any further, until finally the staggered orc collapsed forward, and the weight of his own body shoved the spear into the fighter the rest of the way, killing him. Sure, what actually happened by the die rolls was that the orc stabbed the fighter and killed him, but I went out of my way to make sure he didn't die in a meaningless or anti-climactic fashion. His character mattered so much more, then - the danger was still present, but it never seemed that he was alive or dead by the luck of the dice.
Iddig 02-19-06, 11:43 AM	Kill them, kill them all! They're vile and evil creatures...Actually, as long as the characters have a chance to get out of it, it's not a problem, no one will shout shenanigans on you. I've killed many a character over my long history of DMing (and have had many a character of mine kiled over my long history of playing as well). As has been pointed out a bunch of times it builds excitement and when they are in dire straights (not the band!) they will go to extraordinary lengths to save themselves and their companions (saw a player have his character use a roasted turkey as a weapon once, the DM allowed it, with a non-proficient penalty of course, and he scored a critical hit with it). Conversly, I've been in games where the DM would cheat to keep us from dying, it was not fun in the least and I eventually walked away from it (but, there were other mitigating factors). In my opinion, it's not even close to worth my time to play in a game where death for my characters isn't a constant worry and the dice rolls are fudged...May as well play AMBER diceless then...
MacsBug 02-19-06, 02:34 PM	While I agree for the most part with the various responses here I just want to emphasize that PC death should always be something that can happen, never that will happen. By this I mean railroading your players into "Rocks fall, everybody dies!" encounters is just bad style. Now don't get me wrong - I accept that railroading, to some degree or another, is generally necessary to maintain some sense of focus in many games. I also accept that killer encounters are, and should be, part of the game. My problem is when a DM, either intentionally or accidentally, combines the two thereby creating a situation where the PC's have no "outs". Here's an example from our last gaming session: Our party's following a fairly standard "we brought you back*, now you're our bi*ch" quest line style of payment for a local church. We're assigned to clear out a graveyard with increasing undead activity. We clear through the various upper level mobs, mainly low level skeletons and zombies, continue on and clear the crypt of various small groups of skeletons and random un-themed random "filler" monsters before we finally reach the "boss" - presumably the NPC responsible for raising these dead. We enter the final room of the dungeon and walk up to an alter where, once in the torchlight, we find a smiling Vampire Wizard (aprox. CR 8). Now, before I continue, here's a little background on this campaign. Our DM enjoys a "low magic" setting. When I say "low magic", I don't mean "item creation feats are banned and good luck ever finding anything better than a masterwork sword" - those things are, of course, included. What "low magic" really means in this campaign is, "you are all dirt poor.” A typical level 4 character in this campaign has well under 1000g in equipment. And that's only if you're lucky enough to have selected a fighter type character in this campaign (or, specifically, one of our few melee characters who wasn’t stripped of all his equipment as he was partially digested by some sort of ooze) - the casters are hemorrhaging gold every moderately difficult fight using the few scrolls they were lucky enough to be able to purchase. In any event moving on with the story - the Vampire Wizard would be a perfectly balanced, albeit difficult, encounter in a normal campaign, however in our quaint little world none of the PCs can do jack to this BBEG. The Cleric’s only Magic Weapon spell was already used to enchant one of the PC’s weapons in an earlier battle and the Wizard doesn’t have that spell (read: the Wizard can’t afford to buy the damn scroll yet, let alone scribe it). The Vampire casts Spider Climb during surprise, wins initiative, triggers some sort of mechanism (we hear the doors slam shut behind us) and walks up the wall. So great, here we are, trapped in a room with a creature who’s damage reduction none of us, other than the Wizard, can bypass and the Wizard's got his base spells and one or two scrolls of Magic Missile left – not to mention the Vampire’s fast healing prevents the Wizard from effectively damaging the creature at all. Additionally, our character's are pretty much forced to keep pelting it with arrows as averting our eyes from its Domination attack would be metagaming. The inevitable happens - the Vampire dominates one or two of the party members, pelts us with Magic Missiles, and we all die. The end. That's an example of what should never happen. Never, never, railroad your PCs into an un-winnable encounter. It cheapens the game worse than anything else you can do as a DM. *From the dead. The church raised one or two of our companions in exchange for a nice Geas.
Nom 02-19-06, 04:08 PM	You also need to figure out whether the characters or the game is more important. Some players don't mind the occasional fudge, because they want to keep their PC's. Others would rather that a PC dies and that the game is preserved. Figure out which group yours fit into.
Ravenseye 02-19-06, 04:15 PM	I don't like to kill them too early though. When we start new characters I generally run something that goes up til about level 2 or 3, and is fairly self contained. During that it's no holds barred, death will come to any and all. Then I go easy on them for a bit. From about 4th till maybe 6th or so I won't kill them. They're still growing into their characters and learning how to play them....but I have no problem putting them into negatives and forcing them to spend an action point to stabilize. If need be I have someone 'come to the rescue' so the whole party doesn't die and get wiped out....I let them know that they were lucky, and that if they keep doing stupid things, next time they won't be so lucky... Then after 6th level if they do something stupid, I have no problem killing them, they should no better to not kick down every door they see by that point.
zenlike 02-19-06, 06:23 PM	No
LCD2YOU 02-19-06, 06:28 PM	No You know zenlike, your posts are just way too long. See if you can cut them back a bit. I think you could have easily used 50% less letters in your post here. Get with the program. :D
FriendoftheDork 02-19-06, 06:31 PM	chars should die from time to time, to remind the players of the possibility. A game where the PCs are immortal is not that much fun for everyone. If PCs die too often you're CRs are either too high, or the players too stupid. Of course at a certain level raise dead etc. becomes available and PCs are expected to die - and return from time to time. That's why there are save or die monsters. If you don't use ressurrection spells, either don't use save or die monster or reduce their deadliness somewhat. Most CRs are not really that dangerous anyway, if the PCs have sufficient magic. The exceptions are Dragons, because it is assumed that the PCs can prepare ahead and attack. Use intelligent foes with good tactics, it will be more fun for everyone. The player should also learn from their tactics and be able to use them themselves or counter them. A CR 10 human NPC is not going to kill a PC of the same levels, if there are 4 of them to fight him. Although there ARE save or die spell, these are not that effective. Bad luck will kill PCs sometimes. You can fudge it, but I think players will think higher of you if you don't. Appearances is all that matters though, no god of D&D will punish you for fudging.
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-19-06, 06:31 PM	No. Many of them have no trouble doing that themselves, especially at the campaign at school. 2 characters died in one of the sessions.
Archmage_Vall 02-19-06, 08:57 PM	If they've had IC warning ahead of time (i.e. A bard tells a story about how the bad guy they're looking for is an accomplished warrior and is merciless in battle) then if they fight him and die, then its either new character time, or time to look for a high level cleric. Random encounters with an orc warband aren't likely to produce any surprises though. The orcs are usually doing good if any of them are still alive after 2 rounds.
Anodai 02-19-06, 09:09 PM	And Death spells? It just seems so... "Dammit, I failed my save; now I die." Any advice? its more like **************************************** ******dam and yeah, one of my pcs is 235 pounds and sits on me if he dies. not fun
ConclaveKing 02-19-06, 09:11 PM	Heck, kill them all and let God sort them out, whichever one(s) your character worships.
Necrosis 02-19-06, 09:15 PM	I hear what you are saying-killing players is a not fun thing to do-bUT it is a nessecity to keep the game good, I've had a lot of trouble perosnally with this when i DM'd The best solution I've seen to this is the introduction of hero points (VERY rare, VERY hard to get we get one every 4 months per charater on average). The can be spent to re-roll any dice affecting your charater once OR to auomatically make a certain checks or hit rolls. Hero poitns are given out for espcially heoroic adventureing etc. E.g. I was on -9HP and bleeding, I used a luck point to automatically stablise. This system has been implented within the campaign I play in right now and works really well, our DM has stated if our charters use a luck point to save someone else-it should be possible for the charater to intervene by some super human effort-e.g. stepping in front the critical that was about ot gut your wizard.
Mock26 02-19-06, 09:26 PM	Killing players? Yes, I have a serious problem with that. Killing characters? No, no problem with that.
Kursk 02-19-06, 10:06 PM	I've always had a problem killing my players. Any advice? Players in my game have generally died when they don't heed what's in my sig. :)
The Abominable Darkling 02-19-06, 10:21 PM	The fun of the game depends on the players feeling that their characters are fighting through a dangerous situation, and if you remove death, you're removing a lot of the danger. Ultimately you're robbing the players of part of their fun, because they now know that their characters can do anything they want and not die from it, as you'll always be there to save them. Its akin to playing video games on invincible mode. Sure you win the day, run to the right, and save the princess... but there really wasn't any challenge along the way and the game goes into the "do not play" pile. I've found that this is a pretty common conception, but it simply isn't true. What really makes the game fun is interesting choices. Easy fights are boring not because there's no risk of death but because none of the players' choices actually matter. That's also why its boring playing a video game with god mode on is boring. However, in a video game, there tends to be only a single goal. In an RPG, you have far more flexibility. It's not necessary for the PCs to die in order for the players to lose, and sometimes even when the PCs do die, they can win. I also think it's important to draw a sharp distinction between fun and excitement. Excitement can be fun, but it's not necessary to have fun. Beating the PCs down to a handful of hit points every fight might get the players' hearts racing, but it's a dangerous game that inevitably leads to character death (which is decidedly unfun). It's also completely unnecessary in order to have a good time. Personally, I don't enjoy killing the player characters, and I avoid it whenever I can. In my opinion, it's also crucial that when you do kill a character, it is the direct result of the players' choices and not the result of random factors beyond their control.
LCD2YOU 02-19-06, 10:40 PM	I do cheat on PC kills and NOT kill them for these reasons: 1: Bad dice rolling leads to premature PC death. They go to -hit points and I have them stabalize :really quickly". 2: A party memeber does something incredibly stoopid. The stoopid PC will most likely die, but not the non-stoopid ones. 3: A random encounter than goes down badly and "out of control". Again they'll live. With that said, when they survice, they may not have much, if any of their items left on them. Especially on #1, they're alive but relieved of their items, armor, weapons, clothes, etc. If they are stoopid, they die. I pull no punches then.
rjjr71 02-19-06, 10:59 PM	To address your second thought, regarding a monster's CR and tactics and such... as an inexperienced DM I didn't fully appreciate what goes into a CR- tactics MUST be factored into the encounter. For instance, I threw some perytons at my party. They're CR 5 and have only 32 hp. I had them swoop and use their claw/claw/antler attack each round. A few good hits from a fighter manages to take them out pretty quickly, and I'm left wondering why four CR 5 monsters were not a challenge for the 7th level party. Had I used their flyby abilities, they would've remained out of melee range, forcing the party to use ranged weapons for the most part. Plus, the PCs will get bored hacking their way through each enemy. Use the monster's tactics the same way they would...usually, monsters are playing for keeps, just like the players are. And yes, that element of danger will keep them on their toes and lead to more fulfilling encounters.
KarmaSlave 02-20-06, 12:55 AM	How life like do you want your game? I've played in games where you couldn't get yourself killed. The DM wouldn't let you die despite the onrushing horde that out numbers you a billion to one. And if, by some miracle, you did die you'd be brought back to life by the end of the session. Some players had to assure him it was okay. "My warrior will stay to give the others time to escape, it's okay, I know he's is going to die." Bad things happen, fights get out of control (it could be argued they always are) and people die. Soldiers live and wonder why they lived and the guy next to them didn't. I try to reflect that in the game. Crits are active for players always as a reminder of their fragillity. It helps them to remember that a lucky head shot by an orc can kill them in even though they have 60 hit points. Too many times I've seen characters charge into battle after doing the math of probable damage vs. known hit points. There is no threat of a crossbow bolt killing a healthy warrior 2nd level or higher and the players know that unless you use some form of criticals (and I mean something more lethal than just double damage). In real life though you'd probably think twice before charging headlong into one. Having said that: I do not have as high of PC death rates as you may think. They get warnings in the way of fudged rolls or last minute NPC saves for the first bone headed action they take.(Sort of a close call reminder) Sometimes an important and loved NPC dies to show how close the PCs were to death. (I've had players cry, on more than one occassion when an NPC dies.) But it has helped to maintain a sense of danger. Sometimes it envigorates the players to try harder to stop the BBEG when these deaths occur. I have often said that I don't kill characters but that I'll let them die of the natural consequences of their actions. What I don't like is when a consistantly bad night of rolling on the player's part leads to the character's downfall. This should be tempered with a little DM magic. Monsters should fight as hard and smart as the PC do while still in accordance with their intelligence and ability. If not played to their full potential then you may as well give the players the treasure and XP at the begining of the encounter and not waste time with the encounter. If the players KNOW they will win every encounter then it is much like paying a dollar to pick up a plastic duck at the carnival to see "if" you've won a prize. The last thing I would add is a reiteration of the many posts already: You must (to what ever degree is right for your game) maintain the real threat of death or all combat victories are empty and subject to doubt of accomplishment vs. DM hand outs. Now, who can lead me to some rules about mass combat?
ElvenRngDM333 02-20-06, 02:04 AM	Well, I have been a DM for about 3 years now and I have only encountered 3 "close" deaths in my time. - The first occurred within the Forge of Fury campaign when I first started DMing. I was struggling with the rules and my style of play was very bad (the PC's new alot of what was happening on my side of the table). My group at the time was a 3rd Lv. Rng, Wiz, and Pal. We were crossing the rope bridge at the entrance to the cavern when the Pal (still wearing her Scale Mail armor), failed the Balance check by 7 and fell off the Bridge. Well, I didn't want that to happen, it was so early in the campaign because we started at 3rd level for the adventure, and I remembered earlier that one of the players had mentioned tying themselves together to help each other cross. So, I asked them both to roll a Strength check to hold up the falling PC. Well, they both failed and were pulled off, changing a single death to a TPK. Well, I changed that and said that she just stumbled, but caught herself on the ropes. - The second one was during an adventure that I created. The PC's, now level 8's, were traveling done a long corridor where I had placed a trap that I designed. It was a spiked pit trap that was 10 ft. wide, but when it opened, it triggered a Lightning Bolt from the back wall, which shot toward any PC who avoided falling into the trap. Well, the Rng and now Wiz/Rog, were the unfortunate ones to be walking into the pit. They both saved against the fall, however, the Lightning Bolt was at maximum power, 10d6, an the Rng botched the save for the Lightning Bolt. Well, I tried to roll it fast, and it was very late, so with my only two d6's that I had for the DM, I decided that if I rolled them 10 times each, I would get my Lightning Bolt damage. Well, thats 20d6, and because of that, I killed the Rng and blew up his Bastard Sword that they found in the Forge of Fury (so many memories with that sword). Then, I when we were talking about whether or not he should roll up a new character, or if he should let the Cleric use Gentle Respose, and then finish the campaign to become level nine and bring the Rng back, we realized that my 78 damage was to much. So, I had to look at my rolls, adjust the damage, and instead of killing him, he only was dropped to -8. The cleric promptly healed him. - The final incident was very recent. By that point, the party was only the Rng, who was an Arcane Archer, and the Wiz/Rog, who was an Arcane Trickster. They were trying to infiltrate an enemy compound to gather information on an advance scouting party in the area. They were circling around a river that surrounded a large tower, when they were surprised by a small band of Orc's (2 were 6th level Barbarians and 1 was a 5th level Adept). Because of the close proximity, the Orc's were able to close in on the Rng and go into a Rage. He decided to stand his ground against the Raging Orc's after taking to Power Attack hits that drained alot of his life. After his round, he was dead from another Power Attack. Well, he was very upset about it, and I didn't want to kill of his favorite character (whom I liked as well), so I said that I was just messing with him (were best friends) and altered the damage so that he was only unconcious. Of all those incidents, only the last one do I think I should have not interfered in. But, I have a feeling that they will not survive the boss fight, and if they don't, then so be it. I think it would be a good spot to end those characters.
fawr 02-20-06, 05:37 AM	I recommend that you take a harder line with your PCs (like lots of people have said no risk means that you don't get the satisfaction from winning). But don't do it all at once or you will get a TPK. First setup a battle which is a CR or two lower than you would normally use but fight it to the best of your ability. Then gradually ramp up the pressure. You can also start to warn your players of the inevitable. Give them a scroll of reincarnate or raise dead as loot and watch them discuss it. Its better if you grant the scroll before a character dies as that avoids it looking like a cheap trick.
Iry 02-20-06, 05:38 AM	I always removed a lot of the threat, but at the same time don't pull any punches. I can be a bit mean, and small minion tactics and military strategies are my strong point in games. Enough so that the players can get seriously violated if they don't keep sharp. To compensate, I always incorporate something that I saw in the Betrayal at Krondor game. There is no death, only severe maiming and unconciousness, followed by sluggish recovery despite healing. The only time a character actually dies is if A) The party abandons a character and has no intention of retrieving him or B) The entire party falls, then there is nobody to patch anybody up. So what happens when you're greviously injured? Healing magic is far too traumatic a shock to your system, and you have to heal naturally for three days and at half Strength. This can have serious Roleplaying considerations and tactical reprocussions. Works like a charm. Nobody feels cheated. The risk is still very present. Makes for great cinematics.
Mist of Shadows 02-20-06, 05:39 PM	Player death thought about it a few times, watched too much csi to consider it. I deal with character death on the other hand by running things a touch light on the challenge level for plots and adventures that they are running. If they die they die. There are also things like Ancient dragons, and the swamp of dark death and other nice places where I have absolutely no hard feelings about butchering characters. I have warned them both in game and out of game that there are certain places that your character would most likely die in. I feel no need to coddle players. If they die and can't afford the raise dead spell or there isn't a cleric with a high enough level around, they make a new character. It hurts but it happens, I also believe in only starting at level 1 (or one class level) but I'm mean that way.
Pitr 02-21-06, 05:17 PM	Greetings... current campaign events: - a battle vs a blue dragon on a plane where we cross from gargantuan cube to cube... seems the cubes are islands floating... our sun elf spellcaster and our minotaur were making smart remarks about eachother for the last weeks. The elf was being xenophobic and the minotaur irrascible... we see the dragon flying towards us... i move forward and cry for it to hit me! Being the large winged paladin i make a easy target... minotaur rages... i see a smirk in the face of the sun elf... but i face the lightning breath... thanks to Tyr i roll a 20 and i am immune(house rule #4: 20s immune, 1s double damage), i see the minotaur flying (?) towards the huge blue dragon... i fly upwards and try to help before he is cut into pieces... and i get there several seconds too late... he died and fell to the ground... we hit the dragon hard so the reptilian beast decided to run for his life... and succeded it... on the ground i understood what happened... spellcaster made the raging minotaur fly and the barbarian could not avoid the melee... (good rp from both the players)... was it a good death? maybe not, but it was realistic. - now we are moving towards the emperor, 3 blue dragons guard the keep... they have a nest outside... thanks to all that gave several suggestions i now ride a huge bat (maybe dm trades it for a rainbow raven...) and we're moving towards our deaths... no way we can survive it... but being heroes... at least some of us... we have an incredible luck that protects us... that or Tyr, knowing we're dumb is keeping a Solar close by... inspiring us. D&D is about choices... we all die... if we're lucky, we choose where and when that might happen, if not... that is Fate.
zenlike 02-22-06, 01:41 AM	You know zenlike, your posts are just way too long. See if you can cut them back a bit. I think you could have easily used 50% less letters in your post here. Get with the program. :D My apologies. You see, I was on my friends old computer and really wanted to contribute to the thread but n and o were the only keys I could get to work. It was either that or on. PC deaths are an acceptable part of D&D and without them the excitement and drama of surviving a tough encounter diminishes over time. Just this weekend a PC died in my campaign. We briefly mourned his loss and then quickly moved on to the "what am I going to play now ?" phase. Every death offers an opportunity to breathe new life into a campaign. That is what makes RPing so much fun.
DarknessEternal 02-22-06, 09:55 AM	I've always had a problem killing my players. I mean, they're about to die, and "somehow" the monsters just do enough damage NOT to kill them. Yes, a bit of hacking on my part, Do your players cheat as much as you do? If so, why bother using dice at all? Stop cheating them out of a real experience. You cheapen their accomplishments by making them immortal. What motivation would you have if you know you can't fail? It's pointless and a negative-play experience. They know you're cheating. I guarantee your group would like it better if no one was cheating.
green_yawgmoth 02-22-06, 11:10 AM	My philosophy for killing players is this: A player should not be killed at the whim of the dice. If the players are killed just because of a bad (or good) roll, I would fudge that roll. On the other hand, if the player is doing something stupid (or heroic) I won't fudge dice rolls, because the PCs should know better. So if my players are fighting a bugbear or somehting and the bugbear gets a crit on them, it will not kill them. On the other hand, if the PCs are fleeing a ghoul town with a hullathoin on their tails and one PC decides to be "heroic" by facing the thing while his comrades flee, they will die. That's pretty much my philosophy on the subject. I really don't like unlucky rolls killing PCs, but if it happens like 4-5 times in a row, then maybe it was just time for that character to die. I'm more likely to have a PC get slain if they try to go toe-to-toe with a dragon 5 times their size, however. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Illion the Red 02-22-06, 11:13 AM	In my research on this issue, I came upon this passage in an ancient tome - apparently someone's memoirs. Adventuring is a dangerous business. Adventurers get eaten, mauled, maimed, turned into lycantropes, blasted, burned, hanged, impaled on spikes, killed, and sometime even worse things happen to them. Despite all of this, people are continually taking up the profession. It is my considered opinion that they are certainly all insane - and therefore deserve everything they get. PCs fight, monsters die. PCs fight, PCs die. Sooner or later, you should have both situations happen. It's the nature of the game and an expectation of any truly heroic venture. If the PCs don't want to deal with the danger, they can take up the Expert class and craft shoes for a living.