Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nudnic 02-21-05, 09:50 PM	Let's say you are surrounded by Goblins and one of them gives you the opening to make an Attack of Oppotunity. If you have great cleave and you hit and drop the goblin with the AoO can you continue to swing on the others? What if Several goblins run up and surround you, there are 6 total but only three have moved through your threatened squares and have opened them selves up to AoO's. If you swing and drop one of the three with the AoO can you swing on the other two? Can you swing on any of the others? If you didn't take an AoO on the first as it moved past you but you did take the AoO on the second if you swing and drop it can you still continue and cleave the first?
MortalPlague 02-21-05, 09:58 PM	I think by the rules you can make your great cleave on the attack of opportunity and then keep going with all the goblins, regardless of whether or not they provoked an attack of opportunity.
Captain Obvious 02-21-05, 10:05 PM	So long as the other targets are in reach, and you keep dropping each foe you hit, you can use a single AoO on one to kill all of them. If the PC doing this is high enough level, this becomes likely and high BAB and high damage means these goblins are not long for this world. Just remember that the cleave continues on targets based on where they are when the AoO attack took place, so if three targets provoke AoOs simultaneously and they are the only targets within the fighter's reach when they do - the other goblins (those outside his reach) cannot be cleaved.
Thracos 02-21-05, 10:07 PM	The rules aren't clear on this. i have house ruled that you can't cleave on an AoO. the reason behind this is simple logic: an AoO is only avalable because the other guy did something stupid in combate that left them open. now if the guy next to him didn't drop his guard then you can't get an AoO(cleave) on him. another useful thing to do to keep the party from arguing every rule is to keep a list of your house rules, and use them for the bad guys too. so if the party can cleave on an AoO, so can the BBEG. that tends to end most arguments in my games.
Captain Obvious 02-21-05, 10:25 PM	I think it's a reasonable inference. But ruling it out does make life a lot simpler. As has been pointed out, what works for the PCs will work for the bad guys, too.
Nom 02-21-05, 10:29 PM	The rules are clear: you can cleave off a successful AoO, subject to the conditions being met - you drop a target (reduce to 0 hp / kill / destroy / ...) with a melee attack. Many people don't like the rule and have house-ruled otherwise, but as written it is completely legal.
quintus 02-21-05, 10:29 PM	The rules aren't clear on this. i have house ruled that you can't cleave on an AoO. the reason behind this is simple logic: an AoO is only avalable because the other guy did something stupid in combate that left them open. now if the guy next to him didn't drop his guard then you can't get an AoO(cleave) on him. another useful thing to do to keep the party from arguing every rule is to keep a list of your house rules, and use them for the bad guys too. so if the party can cleave on an AoO, so can the BBEG. that tends to end most arguments in my games. Personally, I don't think the argument that AoOs only occur when you let your guard down holds much water. I don't think anybody expects the sword to come *through* their buddy to hit them. Nobody is prepared for *that*. To quote Dragon magazine #328, page 82: "...An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and is subject to the same rules..." HOWEVER, I think the description of "Full Attack" might have something to say about it... "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones." Since "Full Attack" is not available during an AoO (you can only make a standard action), I would say that you can *NOT* cleave off of an AoO. Just my opinion.
nudnic 02-21-05, 10:34 PM	It sounds pretty unreasonable that you you should be open to a free attack because someone else did something stupid, and really silly that more than one opponent should be open to attack because one of your guys moved within reach. Does wizards have an official ruling on this, does anyone know?
Finarin Panjoro 02-22-05, 03:23 PM	Since "Full Attack" is not available during an AoO (you can only make a standard action), I would say that you can *NOT* cleave off of an AoO. Just my opinion. Not trying to dis your opinion here quintus, but you don't get a standard action on an AoO. You only get a melee attack action (a specific type of standard action). A standard action would let you cast a spell, or drink a potion, or open a lock when someone provoked an AoO. Cleaves are allowed on melee attack actions because, as written, they occur whenever the conditions are met (ie. when an opponent is dropped). The rules are crystal clear on this: you can cleave off of an attack of opportunity that drops the target. But as has been stated many people do not like this and house-rule otherwise (though I'm not one of them.).
Shard Avengard 02-22-05, 04:13 PM	remember to finish each goblins turn before starting the next.... this will really avoid alot of confusion.
Nomad4life 02-22-05, 04:32 PM	This problem is just the kind of reason that we’re junking AoO altogether (except for firing an arrow or spellcasting in a threatened area, as these make sense to us.) Just remember that whatever you do, make sure to be consistent. In other words, the antagonists can also lop through one player because a completely unrelated player did something dumb.
quintus 02-22-05, 04:47 PM	Not trying to dis your opinion here quintus, but you don't get a standard action on an AoO. You only get a melee attack action (a specific type of standard action). You're right. I should have been more clear. I would never actually make a player make any old standard action during an AoO. I was more trying to point out that a single melee attack is the equivalent of a standard action. This whole discussion is going on in multiple threads at the same time: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=383216&page=1&pp=30 As a result of the strong arguments, I've changed my opinion somewhat. I would agree that the rules as written dicate that you should be able to Cleave/Great Cleave off of an AoO. However, I would definitely play with a house rule that prevents you from Cleaving *to* an opponent that would not otherwise be open to an AoO. You get your Cleave back at the start of the next round anyway, so after you drop one opponent from an AoO, you can Cleave to any enemy previously open to an AoO or the next enemy that makes themselves open. I think that still gives you a fair amount of versatility in AoOs. It just seems that without such a house rule, you're leaving yourself open to a potential exploit a-la bag-o-rats.
Aurum 02-22-05, 05:02 PM	All Cleave requires is that you drop someone with damage. It doesn't even have to be a melee attack. Technically by the SRD, it may not even be an attack (thus allowing a 5th level wizard to Cleave goblins off a Fire Shield...), but that one is DM prerogative. The main problem with Cleaving on an AoO is that you can't move. So while you can cut a bloody swath through little creatures, you have to actually be surrounded and have an enemy do something to provoke the attack. Small creatures that fight in close don't tend to provoke a lot of AoOs once they get close, and Tiny creatures attacking in mobs are usually treated better as swarms. I'd also point out that Great Cleave requires two feats and a BAB of +4. At that level, you shouldn't be fighting a lot of goblins, unless you are fighting A LOT of goblins.
quintus 02-22-05, 05:11 PM	All Cleave requires is that you drop someone with damage. It doesn't even have to be a melee attack. Technically by the SRD, it may not even be an attack (thus allowing a 5th level wizard to Cleave goblins off a Fire Shield...), but that one is DM prerogative. Well... Yeah. But Cleave does require that your free attack be a melee attack. So you still need to be within melee range to use it. But maybe you have a reach weapon and are threatened by nobody, but threaten a bunch of baddies. Still could apply, I suppose. If I had my druthers, I'd add make cleave say "If you deal a creature enough melee damage to make it drop..." But I doubt it's that important of a distinction.
Stuntman 02-22-05, 05:23 PM	This problem is just the kind of reason that we’re junking AoO altogether (except for firing an arrow or spellcasting in a threatened area, as these make sense to us.) I don't think that the problem lies in AoO. I think the problem lies with the Cleave and Great Cleave feats. They fixed the Whirlwind Attack/Great Cleave combo by fixing WWA. They should have fixed Cleave and Great Cleave instead. Now, the new bag of rats trick can be done with Combat Reflexes, and Great Cleave. Although it is not as broken as WWA/GC, Cleave and GC still causes situations that may people do not feel makes any sense. If you play strictly by the rules, you can get a Cleave attack off an AoO. However, I would have no problems if you rule that you cannot cleave off an AoO unless the target of the cleave attack had already also incurred an AoO earlier.
Nom 02-22-05, 06:00 PM	HOWEVER, I think the description of "Full Attack" might have something to say about it... "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones." Since "Full Attack" is not available during an AoO (you can only make a standard action), I would say that you can *NOT* cleave off of an AoO.Keep reading the same section (PH pg 143): "Cleave: The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat (pg 92) or the Great Cleave feat (pg 94) can be taken whenever they apply. This is an exception to the normal limit to the number of attacks you can take when not using a full attack action." And yes, the Cleave attack needs to be a melee attack; it's implicit in the description. You gain an extra melee attack "with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature" (pg 92). Though I suppose a rules munchkin could come up with some bizarre weapon or ruling that could make a ranged attack and then be also used to Cleave in melee.
Clarity 02-22-05, 07:21 PM	Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. Standing next to an opponent that was killed by an AoO does not provoke an AoO. In order to be struck by an AoO you have to actually provoke one. If two or more opponents provoke AoO at the same time (if they are acting with the same initiative) this view on the rules would make sense. Because someone had previously or at some later point provoked an AoO does not make them subject to another AoO. For this to fly, they would need to provoke the AoO at the same time against the same combatant. I don't see how another use would be within the rules.
quintus 02-23-05, 12:10 AM	Standing next to an opponent that was killed by an AoO does not provoke an AoO. In order to be struck by an AoO you have to actually provoke one. If two or more opponents provoke AoO at the same time (if they are acting with the same initiative) this view on the rules would make sense. Because someone had previously or at some later point provoked an AoO does not make them subject to another AoO. For this to fly, they would need to provoke the AoO at the same time against the same combatant. I don't see how another use would be within the rules. We're not suggesting that they're subject to another AoO, per se. We're talking about who can be hit with the extra free attacks granted by Cleave during an AoO. I used to be somewhat in your camp, but realize that you're saying that you can *never* use Cleave during an AoO. If you can't attack this round's AoO targets, then you surely can't attack anybody else, either... Right? That would seem to contradict the passage pointed out earlier (PHB pg. 143) about cleave...
Farland 02-23-05, 07:48 AM	Yes, one can cleave off of an AoO. Only the initial attack counts as an AoO; the other attacks count as normal attacks. In fact, it's not broken. Also, if you are contemplating junking AoOs, don't. The monsters can use them the same as the players, so what's the big deal. And a cleave does NOT mean that your sword goes through your enemy to hit the guy behind him. Evidence: if you are flanked you can use the fact that you dropped the guy in front of you to cleave the guy opposite you. You can also cleave with a mace. How does that work?