Appropriate CR for smaller groups? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Appropriate CR for smaller groups? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StormKnight
10-14-04, 05:59 PM Just looking for any advice on what sort of CR to use for smaller groups than normal (1-3 characters). Would a CR 2 a good match for 2 level 4 characters, or is the relationship not that straightforward? Any ideas would be appreciated!
Geethree
10-14-04, 06:01 PM CRs are just guidelines. They aren't perfect, and they will vary depending on a countless number of variables. My advice is just to think about the strengths and weaknesses of your party and use your best judgment.
trapspringer
10-14-04, 06:58 PM 3

Screw strenght and weakness. A party of 2 pc's can handle a cr 4 at level 4. The will have to rest more, but have a 75% chance of success using flat rolling and no creative thought. Run a breif one shot campaign if you are unsure, but I think you will find it is the passing and style you will adjust, not the CR.
LukiLoki
10-14-04, 07:00 PM Yeah, it's never going to be perfect. The actual experience award per character will work out because they have to split it among fewer characters.

What will be thrown off slightly is the assumption of 4 encounters at CR=Party level before a rest. For 3 PCs, more like 3 "even" encounters before they'll need to heal, prepare spells, etc.

Also, what you're going to consider overpowering has to be lower. You'll be risking a TPK with 3 PCs if you throw something at them that's EL of party level + 3 or higher. Likewise you could consider EL=party level OR EL=party level - 1 an "even" encounter.
trapspringer
10-14-04, 07:12 PM Depends on the players.
willmeddis
10-14-04, 10:21 PM I think this is really important stuff. WoC seem quite proud of maintaining "game balance". Older editions of D&D and modules used to occassionally reccomend parties of 5-9 characters. I've rarely had a game with more than four other players. :confused: I'm nearly always planning starter games and am a fan of solo/2 player play.

Two first level characters in an adventure ends up as a bit of a joke when you look at CRs which I would double in this case. One can predict fast deaths by insects, dogs, rats (vermin et al) and three or less kobolds. :weep: It would be nice for new players to have a fight with something more than waist height! This is heroic fantasy!

But yes, the experience point gains will be greater (although the charts vaguely bunch together characters 1-3 level). Gimme, gimme.

There's lots in the D&D rules about increasing monster strengths, but very little about decreasing monster stats per se. Minuses can be achieved through having tough but fatiqued monsters, or starving, confused, disabled with substandard weapons (-2 to -4 on rolls and damage etc.) - that way you can introduce a fearsome but ragged Gnoll or Grimlock to a couple of first level characters without a guarrenteed termination to the adventure. Ideal scenarios being the terrorising of a community by a few aesthetically threatening humanoids (ie. bigger than a halfling, and not just an 0-level bandits or cultist adepts).

This is all conjecture as I have yet had the chance to try it all.

Good luck. :cool:
questionc
10-15-04, 01:49 AM For 2 players, I suppose I would suggest 'halving' the difficulty of each of the encounters. In terms of CR, this means CR-2. I think that it pretty much works out like this...

8 PCs = +2 CR
6 PCs = +1 CR
4 PCs = +0 CR
3 PCs = -1 CR
2 PCs = -2 CR
1 PC = -4 CR

So, two level 2 characters would have a decent fight against a CR 2 monster, and gain experience as they normally would in a 4 person group against a CR 4 monster.

Note that CR does funny things for values of 3 and below. You'll really just have to eyeball that and remember that at 3 and below, half as challenging means half the CR.

Like willmeddis said, the 'adventures' are going to be pretty lame untill the adventurers are at least level 3 or so, and the CR math is going to be pretty messy, and really, the players won't be fighting the really neat monsters untill level 5 or so.
LukiLoki
10-15-04, 01:05 PM Two first level characters in an adventure ends up as a bit of a joke when you look at CRs which I would double in this case.

For 2 players, I suppose I would suggest 'halving' the difficulty of each of the encounters. In terms of CR, this means CR-2. I think that it pretty much works out like this...

8 PCs = +2 CR
6 PCs = +1 CR
4 PCs = +0 CR
3 PCs = -1 CR
2 PCs = -2 CR
1 PC = -4 CR

The composition of the party and things like difficulty factors due to terrain or tactics SHOULD NOT affect the CR. The EL/CR just is what it is. Note that the experience per PC in a smaller party will be greater simply because the award will be split fewer ways. It's up to the DM to decide what CR's to throw at the party, but, having put together an encounter, it is NOT the role of the DM to determine what the EL of that encounter is. That is given by the rules. If you want a lower/higher EL, adjust the encounter, don't arbitrarily tinker with the numbers.

Additionally, the DMG recommends adjusting the experience award itself, not the EL (or CR), for difficulty factors like favorable terrain. It seems like a fine point, but it's important.
Lord Stigius
10-15-04, 04:12 PM Suggestion:
Avoid using creatures with attacks capable of bringing a character from full health to 'dead/disabled' in one round. Better use creatures capable of withstanding longer punishment, and dealing damage for long - but not very much damage in very short time-span. So high CON, high AC fighter with mediocre STR and shield is 'better' for you than a high-STR, mediocre CON fighter with a greataxe,.

Same applies to spells.
Look at Dominate person for example: what it does in a party of 4, and what can do in a party of 2. In the former case, it dramatically changes the balance of battle. In the later, the battle is over, the question is whether the second PC even gets away.
pres_man
10-15-04, 05:54 PM What I would do is take into account the xp table was meant for a 4 person party. So how I would figure it out would be.

(xp for a typical encounter = to PCs level)/4 * (number of PCs) ~ (xp party should get for a typical encounter)
Try to match this new xp amount to the appropriate CR for the PC's level.

For example: Take a party that has two PCs that are 6th lvl.
1800/4 = 450
450 * 2 = 900 ~ EL 4 encounter for 6th lvl PCs.

Take a part that has six PCs that are 6th lvl
1800/4 = 450
450 * 6 = 2700 ~ EL 7 encounter for 6th lvl PCs.

If the EL is lower then the PCs level then hit them with a few powerful monsters. If the EL is higher then hit them with a lot of weaker creatures.
Dash Branaghan
10-15-04, 06:19 PM Pg 49 of the DMG is what you want.

This chart lists mixing and matching different CRs so that you can have multiples to challenge the PCs. So you could figure out how many goblins and orcs make up a good challenge, or how many kobolds and lizard men, etc. It also includes party ranges for the various CRs as well.

Beyond that, you can challenge your party by giving them something higher than they are, and hope they run away or get lucky.

Dash
willmeddis
10-17-04, 07:39 PM It's up to the DM to decide what CR's to throw at the party, but, having put together an encounter, it is NOT the role of the DM to determine what the EL of that encounter is. That is given by the rules. If you want a lower/higher EL, adjust the encounter, don't arbitrarily tinker with the numbers.

Yep. I think I agree. What I was driving at was an intrepretation at first glance of whether or not a monster will turn a party (half a party) into fishpaste by using the CR as a guide. I wasn't demanding a revision of experience points awards etc. I'm also trying to look into alternatives of "new players' adventure ended by vermin"- situations - which is more possible with smaller parties or large parties finding themselves with a large number of deceased members. ;)

The CR system is a good system, an improvement on Hit Dice+special attacks+hp (1st ed.), and it is just a guide - one based on a party of four PCs minimum, so the maths can get a bit strange (see other posts above).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormKnight 10-14-04, 05:59 PM	Just looking for any advice on what sort of CR to use for smaller groups than normal (1-3 characters). Would a CR 2 a good match for 2 level 4 characters, or is the relationship not that straightforward? Any ideas would be appreciated!
Geethree 10-14-04, 06:01 PM	CRs are just guidelines. They aren't perfect, and they will vary depending on a countless number of variables. My advice is just to think about the strengths and weaknesses of your party and use your best judgment.
trapspringer 10-14-04, 06:58 PM	3 Screw strenght and weakness. A party of 2 pc's can handle a cr 4 at level 4. The will have to rest more, but have a 75% chance of success using flat rolling and no creative thought. Run a breif one shot campaign if you are unsure, but I think you will find it is the passing and style you will adjust, not the CR.
LukiLoki 10-14-04, 07:00 PM	Yeah, it's never going to be perfect. The actual experience award per character will work out because they have to split it among fewer characters. What will be thrown off slightly is the assumption of 4 encounters at CR=Party level before a rest. For 3 PCs, more like 3 "even" encounters before they'll need to heal, prepare spells, etc. Also, what you're going to consider overpowering has to be lower. You'll be risking a TPK with 3 PCs if you throw something at them that's EL of party level + 3 or higher. Likewise you could consider EL=party level OR EL=party level - 1 an "even" encounter.
trapspringer 10-14-04, 07:12 PM	Depends on the players.
willmeddis 10-14-04, 10:21 PM	I think this is really important stuff. WoC seem quite proud of maintaining "game balance". Older editions of D&D and modules used to occassionally reccomend parties of 5-9 characters. I've rarely had a game with more than four other players. :confused: I'm nearly always planning starter games and am a fan of solo/2 player play. Two first level characters in an adventure ends up as a bit of a joke when you look at CRs which I would double in this case. One can predict fast deaths by insects, dogs, rats (vermin et al) and three or less kobolds. :weep: It would be nice for new players to have a fight with something more than waist height! This is heroic fantasy! But yes, the experience point gains will be greater (although the charts vaguely bunch together characters 1-3 level). Gimme, gimme. There's lots in the D&D rules about increasing monster strengths, but very little about decreasing monster stats per se. Minuses can be achieved through having tough but fatiqued monsters, or starving, confused, disabled with substandard weapons (-2 to -4 on rolls and damage etc.) - that way you can introduce a fearsome but ragged Gnoll or Grimlock to a couple of first level characters without a guarrenteed termination to the adventure. Ideal scenarios being the terrorising of a community by a few aesthetically threatening humanoids (ie. bigger than a halfling, and not just an 0-level bandits or cultist adepts). This is all conjecture as I have yet had the chance to try it all. Good luck. :cool:
questionc 10-15-04, 01:49 AM	For 2 players, I suppose I would suggest 'halving' the difficulty of each of the encounters. In terms of CR, this means CR-2. I think that it pretty much works out like this... 8 PCs = +2 CR 6 PCs = +1 CR 4 PCs = +0 CR 3 PCs = -1 CR 2 PCs = -2 CR 1 PC = -4 CR So, two level 2 characters would have a decent fight against a CR 2 monster, and gain experience as they normally would in a 4 person group against a CR 4 monster. Note that CR does funny things for values of 3 and below. You'll really just have to eyeball that and remember that at 3 and below, half as challenging means half the CR. Like willmeddis said, the 'adventures' are going to be pretty lame untill the adventurers are at least level 3 or so, and the CR math is going to be pretty messy, and really, the players won't be fighting the really neat monsters untill level 5 or so.
LukiLoki 10-15-04, 01:05 PM	Two first level characters in an adventure ends up as a bit of a joke when you look at CRs which I would double in this case. For 2 players, I suppose I would suggest 'halving' the difficulty of each of the encounters. In terms of CR, this means CR-2. I think that it pretty much works out like this... 8 PCs = +2 CR 6 PCs = +1 CR 4 PCs = +0 CR 3 PCs = -1 CR 2 PCs = -2 CR 1 PC = -4 CR The composition of the party and things like difficulty factors due to terrain or tactics SHOULD NOT affect the CR. The EL/CR just is what it is. Note that the experience per PC in a smaller party will be greater simply because the award will be split fewer ways. It's up to the DM to decide what CR's to throw at the party, but, having put together an encounter, it is NOT the role of the DM to determine what the EL of that encounter is. That is given by the rules. If you want a lower/higher EL, adjust the encounter, don't arbitrarily tinker with the numbers. Additionally, the DMG recommends adjusting the experience award itself, not the EL (or CR), for difficulty factors like favorable terrain. It seems like a fine point, but it's important.
Lord Stigius 10-15-04, 04:12 PM	Suggestion: Avoid using creatures with attacks capable of bringing a character from full health to 'dead/disabled' in one round. Better use creatures capable of withstanding longer punishment, and dealing damage for long - but not very much damage in very short time-span. So high CON, high AC fighter with mediocre STR and shield is 'better' for you than a high-STR, mediocre CON fighter with a greataxe,. Same applies to spells. Look at Dominate person for example: what it does in a party of 4, and what can do in a party of 2. In the former case, it dramatically changes the balance of battle. In the later, the battle is over, the question is whether the second PC even gets away.
pres_man 10-15-04, 05:54 PM	What I would do is take into account the xp table was meant for a 4 person party. So how I would figure it out would be. (xp for a typical encounter = to PCs level)/4 * (number of PCs) ~ (xp party should get for a typical encounter) Try to match this new xp amount to the appropriate CR for the PC's level. For example: Take a party that has two PCs that are 6th lvl. 1800/4 = 450 450 * 2 = 900 ~ EL 4 encounter for 6th lvl PCs. Take a part that has six PCs that are 6th lvl 1800/4 = 450 450 * 6 = 2700 ~ EL 7 encounter for 6th lvl PCs. If the EL is lower then the PCs level then hit them with a few powerful monsters. If the EL is higher then hit them with a lot of weaker creatures.
Dash Branaghan 10-15-04, 06:19 PM	Pg 49 of the DMG is what you want. This chart lists mixing and matching different CRs so that you can have multiples to challenge the PCs. So you could figure out how many goblins and orcs make up a good challenge, or how many kobolds and lizard men, etc. It also includes party ranges for the various CRs as well. Beyond that, you can challenge your party by giving them something higher than they are, and hope they run away or get lucky. Dash
willmeddis 10-17-04, 07:39 PM	It's up to the DM to decide what CR's to throw at the party, but, having put together an encounter, it is NOT the role of the DM to determine what the EL of that encounter is. That is given by the rules. If you want a lower/higher EL, adjust the encounter, don't arbitrarily tinker with the numbers. Yep. I think I agree. What I was driving at was an intrepretation at first glance of whether or not a monster will turn a party (half a party) into fishpaste by using the CR as a guide. I wasn't demanding a revision of experience points awards etc. I'm also trying to look into alternatives of "new players' adventure ended by vermin"- situations - which is more possible with smaller parties or large parties finding themselves with a large number of deceased members. ;) The CR system is a good system, an improvement on Hit Dice+special attacks+hp (1st ed.), and it is just a guide - one based on a party of four PCs minimum, so the maths can get a bit strange (see other posts above).