Appropriate level for a flying steed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Appropriate level for a flying steed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kevtar
07-14-07, 11:43 AM Hi all,

I am working on a prestige class for Samurai which gives them the benefit of a Dragon Horse for a steed. A dragon horse is from 1st edition, MM II. I've made the initial conversion of the creature (using the 2nd to 3rd edition conversion booklet), and I was wondering at what level would you think it would be appropriate for a Samurai to gain this creature as a Mount?

This is not like the "special mount" feature for paladins. It would simply give the samurai enough knowledge, prestige, etc... to seek after this creature for a mount.

In fact, the entire prestige class is based on protecting the skies, and more specifically, learning the way of the dragon horse. The order of samurai serve noble Ki-rin and raise these dragon horses on the prime material. All this is prior to adventuring. Then at a certain age, the Samurai-hopeful must release the dragon horse he has raised and begin adventuring as a Samurai. If he wants to join the ranks of as a Sky-Clan Disciple, he must seek out the dragon horse he raised and successfully win its trust.

Here are the stats for the Dragon Horse. Again, at what level do you think a mount like this would be appropriate for a PC?

Also, please PEACH the conversion and see if it makes sense, is balanced, etc... (it's my first attempt)

Dragon Horse
Magical Beast, Large
Hit Dice: 8d10+21 (67 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 120 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +2 Dex +9 Natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+12
Melee:/B]Bite +14 (1d6+6) and [2] Hooves +14 (1d8+6)
[B]Special Attacks: Breath weapon, Pounce attack
Special Qualities: Ethereal/Astral travel, low-light vision, Detect Alignment, Blindsense
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Pounce, Flyby attack, Hover
Challenge Rating: 7
Alignment: LG
Languages: Avian, Common, Draconic

Thanks
Rabid Dire Wolverine
07-14-07, 05:18 PM I would say base it off the druid alternate animal companion list. Similar CR creatures are obtained at level 13, but with it's menagerie of useful and unusual supernatural abilities I would say it would be much higher. I wouldn't let a player have one before 15th level at the earliest, so depending on the requirements of the prestige class it could give you an appropriate place within the class progression.

Hope that helps!
badsign_98
07-14-07, 06:13 PM I'm having a similar problem in a current game I am playing in. The GM gave our Dragonborn fighter a dragonel as a mount at third level. This has really led to issues within the party as several of the other players resent the power level that this has brought to the character.:rolleyes: You have to consider how this will affect play balance over all.
Vorj
07-15-07, 01:52 AM You might also base the samurai's mount of the Paladins special mount, i think this would be more approriate to the character than using the druid animal companion rules. Or maybe you can use some aglamation of the two rules to come up with something appropriate.
Cantankerous
07-15-07, 02:39 AM Treat it like you would a follower (Cohort) of that ability. For what you've presented I'm thinking no less than it's equivalent being a 12th level NPC.

So, apply the rules for a cohort of that level as though the character in question had the Leadership feat, even if they don't, and here you have it. Technically this could be as early as fourteenth level.

Sounds high doesn't it? It is, however, appropriate. This beastie shouldn't take away the show from the character, which is to a great extent what a flying mount, especially one with Flyby, Hover and POUNCE, is VERY likely to do if you introduce it any earlier.

All of the above assuming that the character in question is already still consistent with with the game ideal and not a twinkie in disguise.

Isshia
BW0222
07-15-07, 11:52 AM Kevtar,

To start with...

a) Hit dice are off. You have +21. With a 17 con and 8hd, that should be +24.

b) Hit points are off. At 8d10+24 is should be 68. Even at +21 it isn't 67.

c) Grapple is off. BAB is 8, strength is +6, size is +4. Should be +18.

d) Your attacks are off. Either the bite or the hooves should be secondary attacks at -5. Primary should be at +13 (+8 BAB, +6 strength, -1 size). Secondary at +8.

e) Damage on the secondary attacks should typically only be +3 (half strength).

f) Saves are off. Base saves are +6/+6/+2. Adjusted by abilities should be Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +3.

g) A magical beast has (2+int)*(HD+3) skill points. That should be 11 skill points. You are missing 5 skill points (spot +4, listen +4 is only 6 considering its wisdom).

h) Pounce isn't a feat, so you are missing one.

i) All magical beasts have darkvision (60').

j) The CR rating is off. Such a creature can go ethereal and astral. It can't really be defeated by two many 7th-level parties.

I'd also be curious why it doesn't have the dragon type? Even a half-dragon gains that, along with various other abilities -- immunity or resistance to its own breath weapon, etc.

The easiest way to look at the cohort level is to build the creature through altering another creature. For example:

1. Start with a Pegasus (4hd, 6th-level cohort)
2. Give it a half-dragon (brass or gold) template. It is still 4hd, but now a 9th-level cohort.
3. Give it the ability to go ethereal and astral, pounce, detect alignment, and blindsense. Being generous and only calling it +2. It is still 4hd, but an 11th-level cohort.
4. Give it 4 more hit dice. 8hd, 16th-level cohort.

Now, it would be slighly different than your creature -- it would have the dragon type, a few more skill points, minor immunities, etc. -- but it would be similiar in terms of breath weapons, ability scores, etc.

It is also comparible to other creatures on the special cohorts list. The most powerful creature in the DMG is a young (i.e. Medium) green dragon.
Kevtar
07-15-07, 10:01 PM Wow - thanks for the posts. I've never really tried making or converting monsters before, so that last bit of information is very helpful. To be honest, I haven't read-up much on the info in the MMI - so I guess it'll be back to the books for me.

Also, your ideas about cohorts have been very helpful.

Thanks again.

Ok - after a little work (and letting DM Genie handle most of the tricky stuff until I can get around to the books, here is the new and improved Dragon Horse)

The Dragon Horse is a magnificent magical beast that sometimes serves the cause of good. Though highly prized as aerial steeds, dragon horses are wild and shy creatures not easily tamed.
A typical Dragon Horse stands 6-7 feet high at the shoulder and weighs 1,500 pounds. Dragon horses cannot speak, but they understand Common and Draconic.

COMBAT
Spell-Like Abilities: At will-detect good and detect evil within a 60-foot radius. Caster level 5th.
Skills: Dragon horses have a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

TRAINING A DRAGON HORSE
Although intelligent, a Dragon Horse requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a Dragon Horse must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly Dragon Horse requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a Dragon Horse requires an exotic saddle. A Dragon Horse can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

Dragon Horse; "Uma":
CR 5
Size L
HD 4d12+16
HP 39
Init +2
Spd 60 ft, fly 120 ft. (average)
AC 18, touch 11, FF 16
BAB +4
Grapple +16
Atk: +10/+10 melee (1d6 + 6, hooves), +5 melee (1d6 + 4, bite)
SA -, Breath weapon (6d8 hp, DC 16, 30-ft cone of cold)
SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Blindsense, spell-like abilities, darkvision, low-light vision, immunity to sleep, paralysis and cold
AL NG
SV Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: *Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, *Int 6, Wis 13, *Cha 12.
Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +4, Listen +8, Sense Motive +9, Spot +8; Flyby Attack, Iron Will.
Special Abilities: *Blindsense, Breath Weapon, Darkvision, Low-light Vision, Resistance To Energy.
Spell-like Abilities: Detect evil, Detect good. *Ethereal Jaunt 1x/day. (CL 8)

*Changed "Scent" to "Blindsense," added Etheral Jaunt. Also, lowered Str, Int, and Cha scores from the original Pegasus scores

I'm guessing that with these changes, this would put the cohort at roughly an equivalent cohort level of 8.

The prestige class I put together requires the PC to be a Samurai and to have an ECL of 9 before taking the class. This way, the PC would be 10th lvl with the Dragon Horse at (hopefully) a proper 8th lvl.

Here are the features of the class if you are interested (it has 5 levels in its progression):

Dragon Horse Special Mount: Upon entering the prestige class, the Sky Clan Disciple gains a dragon horse as a special mount with the following adjustments:

1st lvl Empathic Link
2nd lvl Improved evasion, Shared saving throws
3rd lvl +1 HD, +1 Int bonus, +1 Str bonus
4th lvl +2 HD, +1 Int bonus, +1 Str bonus
5th lvl +2 HD, Spell Resistance (Samurai lvl +5)

Ride Bonus:A Sky Clan Disciple gains his/her class level as a bonus to all ride checks. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 1st lvl.

Able Rider: When using the Ride skill, all check penalties for Heavy or Medium armor and halved. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 1st lvl.

Aerial Offensive: A Sky Clan Disciple can make a full attack with a melee weapon (or with both weapons when two-hand fighting) as long as his mount takes only a single move while in flight. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 2nd lvl.

Ethereal Rest: The Samurai may travel with his mount to the Ethereal plane when the mount uses its "Ethereal Jaunt" ability. The Samurai gains this benefit for 8 hours, after which, he/she must return to the Prime Material plane. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 3rd lvl.

Harrowing Descent: A Samurai who descends from the air towards an opponent on the ground using the charge maneuver may cause the opponent to become shaken. Charging 60 or more feet in a descent, and landing to attack, (does not interrupt charge) allows the Samurai to make an Intimidation check as a Free Action. The intimidation check is made normally as is the opponent's attempt to resist the intimidation. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 4th lvl.

Death from Above: This ability makes the samurai's very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the samurai performs some sort of dramatic aerial-action (such as charging, attacking, or flying over opponents). Opponents within 30' who witness the action may be affected (see table below). (Will DC 20+CHA modifier)

4 or less HD = Panicked
5 to 19 HD = Shaken
20 HD or more = Not affected

The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 5th lvl.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 07-14-07, 11:43 AM	Hi all, I am working on a prestige class for Samurai which gives them the benefit of a Dragon Horse for a steed. A dragon horse is from 1st edition, MM II. I've made the initial conversion of the creature (using the 2nd to 3rd edition conversion booklet), and I was wondering at what level would you think it would be appropriate for a Samurai to gain this creature as a Mount? This is not like the "special mount" feature for paladins. It would simply give the samurai enough knowledge, prestige, etc... to seek after this creature for a mount. In fact, the entire prestige class is based on protecting the skies, and more specifically, learning the way of the dragon horse. The order of samurai serve noble Ki-rin and raise these dragon horses on the prime material. All this is prior to adventuring. Then at a certain age, the Samurai-hopeful must release the dragon horse he has raised and begin adventuring as a Samurai. If he wants to join the ranks of as a Sky-Clan Disciple, he must seek out the dragon horse he raised and successfully win its trust. Here are the stats for the Dragon Horse. Again, at what level do you think a mount like this would be appropriate for a PC? Also, please PEACH the conversion and see if it makes sense, is balanced, etc... (it's my first attempt) Dragon Horse Magical Beast, Large Hit Dice: 8d10+21 (67 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 120 ft. (good) Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +2 Dex +9 Natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+12 Melee:/B]Bite +14 (1d6+6) and [2] Hooves +14 (1d8+6) [B]Special Attacks: Breath weapon, Pounce attack Special Qualities: Ethereal/Astral travel, low-light vision, Detect Alignment, Blindsense Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +0 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4 Feats: Pounce, Flyby attack, Hover Challenge Rating: 7 Alignment: LG Languages: Avian, Common, Draconic Thanks
Rabid Dire Wolverine 07-14-07, 05:18 PM	I would say base it off the druid alternate animal companion list. Similar CR creatures are obtained at level 13, but with it's menagerie of useful and unusual supernatural abilities I would say it would be much higher. I wouldn't let a player have one before 15th level at the earliest, so depending on the requirements of the prestige class it could give you an appropriate place within the class progression. Hope that helps!
badsign_98 07-14-07, 06:13 PM	I'm having a similar problem in a current game I am playing in. The GM gave our Dragonborn fighter a dragonel as a mount at third level. This has really led to issues within the party as several of the other players resent the power level that this has brought to the character.:rolleyes: You have to consider how this will affect play balance over all.
Vorj 07-15-07, 01:52 AM	You might also base the samurai's mount of the Paladins special mount, i think this would be more approriate to the character than using the druid animal companion rules. Or maybe you can use some aglamation of the two rules to come up with something appropriate.
Cantankerous 07-15-07, 02:39 AM	Treat it like you would a follower (Cohort) of that ability. For what you've presented I'm thinking no less than it's equivalent being a 12th level NPC. So, apply the rules for a cohort of that level as though the character in question had the Leadership feat, even if they don't, and here you have it. Technically this could be as early as fourteenth level. Sounds high doesn't it? It is, however, appropriate. This beastie shouldn't take away the show from the character, which is to a great extent what a flying mount, especially one with Flyby, Hover and POUNCE, is VERY likely to do if you introduce it any earlier. All of the above assuming that the character in question is already still consistent with with the game ideal and not a twinkie in disguise. Isshia
BW0222 07-15-07, 11:52 AM	Kevtar, To start with... a) Hit dice are off. You have +21. With a 17 con and 8hd, that should be +24. b) Hit points are off. At 8d10+24 is should be 68. Even at +21 it isn't 67. c) Grapple is off. BAB is 8, strength is +6, size is +4. Should be +18. d) Your attacks are off. Either the bite or the hooves should be secondary attacks at -5. Primary should be at +13 (+8 BAB, +6 strength, -1 size). Secondary at +8. e) Damage on the secondary attacks should typically only be +3 (half strength). f) Saves are off. Base saves are +6/+6/+2. Adjusted by abilities should be Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +3. g) A magical beast has (2+int)*(HD+3) skill points. That should be 11 skill points. You are missing 5 skill points (spot +4, listen +4 is only 6 considering its wisdom). h) Pounce isn't a feat, so you are missing one. i) All magical beasts have darkvision (60'). j) The CR rating is off. Such a creature can go ethereal and astral. It can't really be defeated by two many 7th-level parties. I'd also be curious why it doesn't have the dragon type? Even a half-dragon gains that, along with various other abilities -- immunity or resistance to its own breath weapon, etc. The easiest way to look at the cohort level is to build the creature through altering another creature. For example: 1. Start with a Pegasus (4hd, 6th-level cohort) 2. Give it a half-dragon (brass or gold) template. It is still 4hd, but now a 9th-level cohort. 3. Give it the ability to go ethereal and astral, pounce, detect alignment, and blindsense. Being generous and only calling it +2. It is still 4hd, but an 11th-level cohort. 4. Give it 4 more hit dice. 8hd, 16th-level cohort. Now, it would be slighly different than your creature -- it would have the dragon type, a few more skill points, minor immunities, etc. -- but it would be similiar in terms of breath weapons, ability scores, etc. It is also comparible to other creatures on the special cohorts list. The most powerful creature in the DMG is a young (i.e. Medium) green dragon.
Kevtar 07-15-07, 10:01 PM	Wow - thanks for the posts. I've never really tried making or converting monsters before, so that last bit of information is very helpful. To be honest, I haven't read-up much on the info in the MMI - so I guess it'll be back to the books for me. Also, your ideas about cohorts have been very helpful. Thanks again. Ok - after a little work (and letting DM Genie handle most of the tricky stuff until I can get around to the books, here is the new and improved Dragon Horse) The Dragon Horse is a magnificent magical beast that sometimes serves the cause of good. Though highly prized as aerial steeds, dragon horses are wild and shy creatures not easily tamed. A typical Dragon Horse stands 6-7 feet high at the shoulder and weighs 1,500 pounds. Dragon horses cannot speak, but they understand Common and Draconic. COMBAT Spell-Like Abilities: At will-detect good and detect evil within a 60-foot radius. Caster level 5th. Skills: Dragon horses have a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. TRAINING A DRAGON HORSE Although intelligent, a Dragon Horse requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a Dragon Horse must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly Dragon Horse requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a Dragon Horse requires an exotic saddle. A Dragon Horse can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Dragon Horse; "Uma": CR 5 Size L HD 4d12+16 HP 39 Init +2 Spd 60 ft, fly 120 ft. (average) AC 18, touch 11, FF 16 BAB +4 Grapple +16 Atk: +10/+10 melee (1d6 + 6, hooves), +5 melee (1d6 + 4, bite) SA -, Breath weapon (6d8 hp, DC 16, 30-ft cone of cold) SQ Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Blindsense, spell-like abilities, darkvision, low-light vision, immunity to sleep, paralysis and cold AL NG SV Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +4 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 12. Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +4, Listen +8, Sense Motive +9, Spot +8; Flyby Attack, Iron Will. Special Abilities: Blindsense, Breath Weapon, Darkvision, Low-light Vision, Resistance To Energy. Spell-like Abilities: Detect evil, Detect good. Ethereal Jaunt 1x/day. (CL 8) Changed "Scent" to "Blindsense," added Etheral Jaunt. Also, lowered Str, Int, and Cha scores from the original Pegasus scores I'm guessing that with these changes, this would put the cohort at roughly an equivalent cohort level of 8. The prestige class I put together requires the PC to be a Samurai and to have an ECL of 9 before taking the class. This way, the PC would be 10th lvl with the Dragon Horse at (hopefully) a proper 8th lvl. Here are the features of the class if you are interested (it has 5 levels in its progression): Dragon Horse Special Mount: Upon entering the prestige class, the Sky Clan Disciple gains a dragon horse as a special mount with the following adjustments: 1st lvl Empathic Link 2nd lvl Improved evasion, Shared saving throws 3rd lvl +1 HD, +1 Int bonus, +1 Str bonus 4th lvl +2 HD, +1 Int bonus, +1 Str bonus 5th lvl +2 HD, Spell Resistance (Samurai lvl +5) Ride Bonus:A Sky Clan Disciple gains his/her class level as a bonus to all ride checks. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 1st lvl. Able Rider: When using the Ride skill, all check penalties for Heavy or Medium armor and halved. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 1st lvl. Aerial Offensive: A Sky Clan Disciple can make a full attack with a melee weapon (or with both weapons when two-hand fighting) as long as his mount takes only a single move while in flight. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 2nd lvl. Ethereal Rest: The Samurai may travel with his mount to the Ethereal plane when the mount uses its "Ethereal Jaunt" ability. The Samurai gains this benefit for 8 hours, after which, he/she must return to the Prime Material plane. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 3rd lvl. Harrowing Descent: A Samurai who descends from the air towards an opponent on the ground using the charge maneuver may cause the opponent to become shaken. Charging 60 or more feet in a descent, and landing to attack, (does not interrupt charge) allows the Samurai to make an Intimidation check as a Free Action. The intimidation check is made normally as is the opponent's attempt to resist the intimidation. The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 4th lvl. Death from Above: This ability makes the samurai's very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the samurai performs some sort of dramatic aerial-action (such as charging, attacking, or flying over opponents). Opponents within 30' who witness the action may be affected (see table below). (Will DC 20+CHA modifier) 4 or less HD = Panicked 5 to 19 HD = Shaken 20 HD or more = Not affected The Sky Clan Disciple receives this feature at 5th lvl.