Appropriate level for adamantine spiked chain... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Appropriate level for adamantine spiked chain... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jbsaff
08-20-07, 11:26 AM At what level range do players typically look for weapons made of exotic materials?

I've got a 9th level Wilder player that thinks he wants an adamantine spiked chain. Unfortunately, in my past experience as a player my DM did dungeon-crawl type situations (no shops or crafting for 5 levels) or low-level campaigns. Thus, I don't have much in the way of past experience of mid-high level play to draw on.

I've laid the groundwork thus: spiked chains aren't accepted weapons in any military tradition in my campaign. That means that the character is going to have to develop the style and practice with it for several weeks before he will be able to take the EWP: Spiked Chain feat. One reason for the restriction is that he took Psychic Reformation as a power, allowing him to pay XP to retrain feats, skill selection, and power choice. I'm not convinced that the Spiked Chain won't be overpowered, given the player's avowed desire to create the most powerful character possible. Other information of note: The player has mithril full plate (patronage of the monarch helps) and currently wields a great sword +2. The number 1 reason for wanting Spiked Chain is to threaten all 10ft of the reach. The trip attempts and disarm have been considered for tactical situations, but not part of a build concept. Character concept: I'm spiky. Don't touch. I can kill you with my mind (and now my chain).

EDIT: Apparently, I was wrong. Adamantine, as it only adds about 3k to the cost of the item, is within reach economically for a 9th level char. I've hidden away my original thought in the sblock. My players should not open it.

Also, I have decided that adamantine will be extremely rare/nonexistant in my world until the player reaches a more realistic level (assuming that I am correct in thinking that adamantine spiked chain at lvl 9 is a tad overdone). To that end, what are some favorite explanations for adamantine? Meteorite metal? Product of dangerous alchemical experimention? Gift of strange and exotic outsiders?

Thanks a lot!
Einvaldurinn_mikli
08-20-07, 11:39 AM It should be fine. They only cost an extra 3000gp, so it's well within what a 9th level character can have. Seriously, it's no big deal, he can't even sunder with it.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-20-07, 12:16 PM He's using full plate, and uses a greatsword rather than a falchion? Don't worry about this guy, he's not talented enough to be all that dangerous. Even with the mithral he can't have sufficient Dex to take the large number of attacks of opportunity needed for total ground level zone control - and even if he comes close, that's points away from Strength needed for the special maneuvers to make that control work.

Regarding the spiked chain specifically, don't worry about it. It is significantly better than the other exotic weapons available, but this is because the other exotic weapons are not worth the feats required to be proficient in them, not because the chain is overly powerful. Adamantine won't even help much offensively, mostly it'll help him cope with sunder attempts (which is a valid concern if spiked chains are so rare in your setting, replacing a broken one would be quite difficult).

As for the nature of adamantine, I suppose it forms naturally in conditions of extremely high pressure (very deep underground, and some denser sections of the elemental plane of earth), and occasionally hitchhikes to the surface with the magma flow of a volcanic eruption.
Arrowstorm
08-20-07, 02:07 PM I wouldn't sweat the combo at all. My rogue got the proficiency at 3rd level. It's only a 2d4 +1 1/2 str. It's big advantage is reach. Even then it's hard to get enough attacks of opportunity to rally change game play. A player could take a better damage reach weapon and the short haft feat and do the same thing.
Magikeeper
08-20-07, 02:29 PM He's using full plate, and uses a greatsword rather than a falchion? Don't worry about this guy, he's not talented enough to be all that dangerous. Even with the mithral he can't have sufficient Dex to take the large number of attacks of opportunity needed for total ground level zone control - and even if he comes close, that's points away from Strength needed for the special maneuvers to make that control work.

Huh? Maximum Dex specifically states that it only applies to armor class; it doesn't effect other uses of dexterity. He can make attacks of opportunity just fine. Even if he couldn’t, +3 dex would be 4 AoOs each round. Maybe not total control, but that would still be quite good.
The real issue with fullplate is that wilders are only proficient with LIGHT armor. That means that even mithral fullplate is giving him a -3 penalty to his attacks. If he took armor proficiency or spent gold on further penalty reducing enhancements, well, that’s a huge investment for a poor BAB class.

Inertial armor would be the best, but I could possibly understand him not taking it since wilders have so few powers known (That and it makes the CHA to touch AC ability nearly worthless.).

Regarding the spiked chain specifically, don't worry about it. It is significantly better than the other exotic weapons available, but this is because the other exotic weapons are not worth the feats required to be proficient in them, not because the chain is overly powerful. Adamantine won't even help much offensively, mostly it'll help him cope with sunder attempts (which is a valid concern if spiked chains are so rare in your setting, replacing a broken one would be quite difficult).

I agree with this.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-20-07, 02:41 PM Huh? Maximum Dex specifically states that it only applies to armor class; it doesn't effect other uses of dexterity. He can make attacks of opportunity just fine. Even if he couldn’t, +3 dex would be 4 AoOs each round. Maybe not total control, but that would still be quite good.
The real issue with fullplate is that wilders are only proficient with LIGHT armor. That means that even mithral fullplate is giving him a -3 penalty to his attacks. If he took armor proficiency or spent gold on further penalty reducing enhancements, well, that’s a huge investment for a poor BAB class.My remark was going on the assumption that he wouldn't be using armor with a max Dex to AC lower than his actual Dex bonus, if he is, that's a whole other not working to full capacity issue. 4 AoOs per round is really low for area control though, not enough to make even an otherwise capable chain user very threatening. Point on the other issues raised.
jbsaff
08-20-07, 03:11 PM To answer some of the questions raised: Yes, he took the feat for armor proficiency. Also, his DEX is a 16, so +3 bonus. He's promising Heaven and earth that he will not be taking Combat Reflexes, so that is at least one concern addressed.

Thanks for the replies. After seeing him take a +3 Ring of Protection for himself instead of giving it to the Psion cohort, I wanted to be careful of possible imbalance issues.

EDIT: Sanatized for player reading.
DarkNick
08-20-07, 05:22 PM I really can't see what you are worried about. He is 9th level!

I think you are worrying too much. Have you looked at what a CR9 monster can do? I think you're are being too cautious.

Also why can't he keep a +3 ring? That is a pretty choice item. Why should he be required to give it to a cohort who probably does not need it anyway.

Just relax. Lossen up and give your players a bit more freedom. At least that way you get a realistic view of the possibilities of higher level play.
Kaladon7779
08-20-07, 05:45 PM why are you so concerned? Spike chain isn't that overly broken, plus he's 9th level. that's getting up there in levels my friend. Even if he does take combat reflexes, big deal, so he can make 3 AoO instead of 1. Just let him take it. To be honest with you, if you have wizards and clerics in your group that are 9th level then I'd start to be worried about them.
jbsaff
08-21-07, 10:04 AM Alrighty, thanks for the input! As I said before, I didn't get much experience playing a mid-high level character. This being my first time behind the screen, I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be starting something I would regret later.

Thanks everyone!
Puggins
08-21-07, 10:17 AM Worrying about a spiked chain fighter is a bit like worrying about that cockroach crawling across your path while a semi-truck is bearing down on you at 97mph.

A 9th level fighter with a spiked chain and combat reflexes can't hold a candle to what a wizard can do at that level. Why worry about getting combat reflexes when you can wipe out every opponent at once with Evard's/Confusion/Fear/Walls or Suddenly maximized DD?

Let him have the chain, and let him have combat reflexes. He still won't compare to the casters in your party.
jbsaff
08-21-07, 10:50 AM Let him have the chain, and let him have combat reflexes. He still won't compare to the casters in your party.

He is the casters in the party. Him and his cohort.
Incendius
08-21-07, 07:21 PM He is the casters in the party. Him and his cohort.

His COHORT is the caster, very big difference.

Pretty soon you'll see something wierd, namely his cohort being better then his actual character.
dknight100
08-21-07, 07:59 PM His COHORT is the caster, very big difference.

Pretty soon you'll see something wierd, namely his cohort being better then his actual character.

Heh, it would be like Blackadder the 3rd, with Blackadder serving as prince george's butler.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
08-21-07, 08:08 PM He's trying to make the most powerful character possible... And he's playing a WILDER?

I don't think you have much to fear from him in terms of breaking the game... Still, if this is your first time behind the screen, don't be afraid of making mistakes. If you get to the end of a session and don't have at least something where you can say "Oh crap... I really should NOT have done that!", then you've gotten to the end of a session and not learned a thing. :P
Movieman_69
08-22-07, 12:27 AM I don't see anyone mentioning the fact that using a spiked chain for the reach is TECHNICALLY treated the same as a ranged attack for figuring soft cover, and such. (3.5 PHB p 151 "when making a melee attack against a target that is not adjacent to you (such as with a ranged reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks)

Let that be your biggest concern. Don't let your over zelous "power gamer" get away with over looking this rule, and the spiked chain won't cause you any trouble. This rule also applies for any reach melee weapon (pikes, hallberds, long spears, etc.)

Do not melee reach confuse this for natural reach however. An ogre with an ogre sized club, still gets his 10 foot reach by standard melee rules. Give that ogre an ogre sized reach weapon, entending his reach to 15 feet and you are in the same situation.

senario: player with spiked chain backs off 5 feet to use a touch ranged trip attach, his fellow party player occupies the square on diagnal in front of the enemy. guess what!! Your own team mate is in now in line of site (bocks one corner or square to the enemy) and provides a soft cover +4 AC bonus to the enemy.

Not only that, but unless he takes the improved trip feat, he himself is open to attacks of opportunity from other enemies when attempting to trip. Place some rogues with combat reflexes into your encounter and tear him apart if he gets too full of himself, or disagrees with playing "by the rules"

Remember also, that your defender being tripped can make an opposed roll with EITHER an opposed strength check or dex check, which ever is higher. Large characters get an additional +4 to the roll for every size past meduim. Sturdy characters such as dwarves also get +2 to the opposed roll.

Have an enemy spell caster enlarge their primary fighter, or cast bull strength on him (or both) Have the caster case reduce person on the tripper.

As you can see. There are numerous ways to keep the trip attack in check.

But you SHOULD NEVER FORGET that is is INDEED treated as a ranged attach for SOFT COVER

Let him waste his money on adamantium. 3000 gp.. GREAT investment!!! considering that a +1 for 2000gp adds +1 to the save DC when the weapon needs one, and also gives +10 hp of hardness. Not to mention the fact that it now takes at least a +1 weapon to sunder this chain. Not only that we all know +1 gives +1 to BOTH attack and damage

<LAUGHS> adamantium=AWSOME!! <LAUGHS>

If you have taken him aside and explained your concerns over his improper use or understanding of reach melee weapons, and if he refuses to listen, or is that ignorant, and thinks an adamantium chain will be his catch all, and make him unstoppable in combat, maybe he needs a harsh lesson on this.

HAVE FUN.
dknight100
08-22-07, 12:47 AM Just a note: The DM doesn't need help railing on the player - as far as we have been told, the player hasn't attempting to misuse any feature of the spiked chain, he just wants one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jbsaff 08-20-07, 11:26 AM	At what level range do players typically look for weapons made of exotic materials? I've got a 9th level Wilder player that thinks he wants an adamantine spiked chain. Unfortunately, in my past experience as a player my DM did dungeon-crawl type situations (no shops or crafting for 5 levels) or low-level campaigns. Thus, I don't have much in the way of past experience of mid-high level play to draw on. I've laid the groundwork thus: spiked chains aren't accepted weapons in any military tradition in my campaign. That means that the character is going to have to develop the style and practice with it for several weeks before he will be able to take the EWP: Spiked Chain feat. One reason for the restriction is that he took Psychic Reformation as a power, allowing him to pay XP to retrain feats, skill selection, and power choice. I'm not convinced that the Spiked Chain won't be overpowered, given the player's avowed desire to create the most powerful character possible. Other information of note: The player has mithril full plate (patronage of the monarch helps) and currently wields a great sword +2. The number 1 reason for wanting Spiked Chain is to threaten all 10ft of the reach. The trip attempts and disarm have been considered for tactical situations, but not part of a build concept. Character concept: I'm spiky. Don't touch. I can kill you with my mind (and now my chain). EDIT: Apparently, I was wrong. Adamantine, as it only adds about 3k to the cost of the item, is within reach economically for a 9th level char. I've hidden away my original thought in the sblock. My players should not open it. Also, I have decided that adamantine will be extremely rare/nonexistant in my world until the player reaches a more realistic level (assuming that I am correct in thinking that adamantine spiked chain at lvl 9 is a tad overdone). To that end, what are some favorite explanations for adamantine? Meteorite metal? Product of dangerous alchemical experimention? Gift of strange and exotic outsiders? Thanks a lot!
Einvaldurinn_mikli 08-20-07, 11:39 AM	It should be fine. They only cost an extra 3000gp, so it's well within what a 9th level character can have. Seriously, it's no big deal, he can't even sunder with it.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-20-07, 12:16 PM	He's using full plate, and uses a greatsword rather than a falchion? Don't worry about this guy, he's not talented enough to be all that dangerous. Even with the mithral he can't have sufficient Dex to take the large number of attacks of opportunity needed for total ground level zone control - and even if he comes close, that's points away from Strength needed for the special maneuvers to make that control work. Regarding the spiked chain specifically, don't worry about it. It is significantly better than the other exotic weapons available, but this is because the other exotic weapons are not worth the feats required to be proficient in them, not because the chain is overly powerful. Adamantine won't even help much offensively, mostly it'll help him cope with sunder attempts (which is a valid concern if spiked chains are so rare in your setting, replacing a broken one would be quite difficult). As for the nature of adamantine, I suppose it forms naturally in conditions of extremely high pressure (very deep underground, and some denser sections of the elemental plane of earth), and occasionally hitchhikes to the surface with the magma flow of a volcanic eruption.
Arrowstorm 08-20-07, 02:07 PM	I wouldn't sweat the combo at all. My rogue got the proficiency at 3rd level. It's only a 2d4 +1 1/2 str. It's big advantage is reach. Even then it's hard to get enough attacks of opportunity to rally change game play. A player could take a better damage reach weapon and the short haft feat and do the same thing.
Magikeeper 08-20-07, 02:29 PM	He's using full plate, and uses a greatsword rather than a falchion? Don't worry about this guy, he's not talented enough to be all that dangerous. Even with the mithral he can't have sufficient Dex to take the large number of attacks of opportunity needed for total ground level zone control - and even if he comes close, that's points away from Strength needed for the special maneuvers to make that control work. Huh? Maximum Dex specifically states that it only applies to armor class; it doesn't effect other uses of dexterity. He can make attacks of opportunity just fine. Even if he couldn’t, +3 dex would be 4 AoOs each round. Maybe not total control, but that would still be quite good. The real issue with fullplate is that wilders are only proficient with LIGHT armor. That means that even mithral fullplate is giving him a -3 penalty to his attacks. If he took armor proficiency or spent gold on further penalty reducing enhancements, well, that’s a huge investment for a poor BAB class. Inertial armor would be the best, but I could possibly understand him not taking it since wilders have so few powers known (That and it makes the CHA to touch AC ability nearly worthless.). Regarding the spiked chain specifically, don't worry about it. It is significantly better than the other exotic weapons available, but this is because the other exotic weapons are not worth the feats required to be proficient in them, not because the chain is overly powerful. Adamantine won't even help much offensively, mostly it'll help him cope with sunder attempts (which is a valid concern if spiked chains are so rare in your setting, replacing a broken one would be quite difficult). I agree with this.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-20-07, 02:41 PM	Huh? Maximum Dex specifically states that it only applies to armor class; it doesn't effect other uses of dexterity. He can make attacks of opportunity just fine. Even if he couldn’t, +3 dex would be 4 AoOs each round. Maybe not total control, but that would still be quite good. The real issue with fullplate is that wilders are only proficient with LIGHT armor. That means that even mithral fullplate is giving him a -3 penalty to his attacks. If he took armor proficiency or spent gold on further penalty reducing enhancements, well, that’s a huge investment for a poor BAB class.My remark was going on the assumption that he wouldn't be using armor with a max Dex to AC lower than his actual Dex bonus, if he is, that's a whole other not working to full capacity issue. 4 AoOs per round is really low for area control though, not enough to make even an otherwise capable chain user very threatening. Point on the other issues raised.
jbsaff 08-20-07, 03:11 PM	To answer some of the questions raised: Yes, he took the feat for armor proficiency. Also, his DEX is a 16, so +3 bonus. He's promising Heaven and earth that he will not be taking Combat Reflexes, so that is at least one concern addressed. Thanks for the replies. After seeing him take a +3 Ring of Protection for himself instead of giving it to the Psion cohort, I wanted to be careful of possible imbalance issues. EDIT: Sanatized for player reading.
DarkNick 08-20-07, 05:22 PM	I really can't see what you are worried about. He is 9th level! I think you are worrying too much. Have you looked at what a CR9 monster can do? I think you're are being too cautious. Also why can't he keep a +3 ring? That is a pretty choice item. Why should he be required to give it to a cohort who probably does not need it anyway. Just relax. Lossen up and give your players a bit more freedom. At least that way you get a realistic view of the possibilities of higher level play.
Kaladon7779 08-20-07, 05:45 PM	why are you so concerned? Spike chain isn't that overly broken, plus he's 9th level. that's getting up there in levels my friend. Even if he does take combat reflexes, big deal, so he can make 3 AoO instead of 1. Just let him take it. To be honest with you, if you have wizards and clerics in your group that are 9th level then I'd start to be worried about them.
jbsaff 08-21-07, 10:04 AM	Alrighty, thanks for the input! As I said before, I didn't get much experience playing a mid-high level character. This being my first time behind the screen, I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be starting something I would regret later. Thanks everyone!
Puggins 08-21-07, 10:17 AM	Worrying about a spiked chain fighter is a bit like worrying about that cockroach crawling across your path while a semi-truck is bearing down on you at 97mph. A 9th level fighter with a spiked chain and combat reflexes can't hold a candle to what a wizard can do at that level. Why worry about getting combat reflexes when you can wipe out every opponent at once with Evard's/Confusion/Fear/Walls or Suddenly maximized DD? Let him have the chain, and let him have combat reflexes. He still won't compare to the casters in your party.
jbsaff 08-21-07, 10:50 AM	Let him have the chain, and let him have combat reflexes. He still won't compare to the casters in your party. He is the casters in the party. Him and his cohort.
Incendius 08-21-07, 07:21 PM	He is the casters in the party. Him and his cohort. His COHORT is the caster, very big difference. Pretty soon you'll see something wierd, namely his cohort being better then his actual character.
dknight100 08-21-07, 07:59 PM	His COHORT is the caster, very big difference. Pretty soon you'll see something wierd, namely his cohort being better then his actual character. Heh, it would be like Blackadder the 3rd, with Blackadder serving as prince george's butler.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-21-07, 08:08 PM	He's trying to make the most powerful character possible... And he's playing a WILDER? I don't think you have much to fear from him in terms of breaking the game... Still, if this is your first time behind the screen, don't be afraid of making mistakes. If you get to the end of a session and don't have at least something where you can say "Oh crap... I really should NOT have done that!", then you've gotten to the end of a session and not learned a thing. :P
Movieman_69 08-22-07, 12:27 AM	I don't see anyone mentioning the fact that using a spiked chain for the reach is TECHNICALLY treated the same as a ranged attack for figuring soft cover, and such. (3.5 PHB p 151 "when making a melee attack against a target that is not adjacent to you (such as with a ranged reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks) Let that be your biggest concern. Don't let your over zelous "power gamer" get away with over looking this rule, and the spiked chain won't cause you any trouble. This rule also applies for any reach melee weapon (pikes, hallberds, long spears, etc.) Do not melee reach confuse this for natural reach however. An ogre with an ogre sized club, still gets his 10 foot reach by standard melee rules. Give that ogre an ogre sized reach weapon, entending his reach to 15 feet and you are in the same situation. senario: player with spiked chain backs off 5 feet to use a touch ranged trip attach, his fellow party player occupies the square on diagnal in front of the enemy. guess what!! Your own team mate is in now in line of site (bocks one corner or square to the enemy) and provides a soft cover +4 AC bonus to the enemy. Not only that, but unless he takes the improved trip feat, he himself is open to attacks of opportunity from other enemies when attempting to trip. Place some rogues with combat reflexes into your encounter and tear him apart if he gets too full of himself, or disagrees with playing "by the rules" Remember also, that your defender being tripped can make an opposed roll with EITHER an opposed strength check or dex check, which ever is higher. Large characters get an additional +4 to the roll for every size past meduim. Sturdy characters such as dwarves also get +2 to the opposed roll. Have an enemy spell caster enlarge their primary fighter, or cast bull strength on him (or both) Have the caster case reduce person on the tripper. As you can see. There are numerous ways to keep the trip attack in check. But you SHOULD NEVER FORGET that is is INDEED treated as a ranged attach for SOFT COVER Let him waste his money on adamantium. 3000 gp.. GREAT investment!!! considering that a +1 for 2000gp adds +1 to the save DC when the weapon needs one, and also gives +10 hp of hardness. Not to mention the fact that it now takes at least a +1 weapon to sunder this chain. Not only that we all know +1 gives +1 to BOTH attack and damage <LAUGHS> adamantium=AWSOME!! <LAUGHS> If you have taken him aside and explained your concerns over his improper use or understanding of reach melee weapons, and if he refuses to listen, or is that ignorant, and thinks an adamantium chain will be his catch all, and make him unstoppable in combat, maybe he needs a harsh lesson on this. HAVE FUN.
dknight100 08-22-07, 12:47 AM	Just a note: The DM doesn't need help railing on the player - as far as we have been told, the player hasn't attempting to misuse any feature of the spiked chain, he just wants one.