Post/Author/DateTime	Post
draven_defay 02-24-07, 06:44 PM	Alright, last session the PC's went up against what was supposed to be a big player. They were level 4, he was level6, but the Barbarian (should have) killed him in one hit. Behind the scenes, I quadrupled the villain's HP on the spot, but he still really wasn't the headache for the PC's I had intended him to be. He succesfully faked his death, and the barbarian tossed his "corpse" off the tower. That part worked out fairly well, since the villain can sprout wings, he can pop up again later. So anyways, on to my question: What level should the enemies be in comparison with the party?
Sadrx 02-24-07, 07:30 PM	Right off the top of my head, four levels higher than a four-member party -- it should especially be that high if you want the villain to have any chance of surviving. I frequently pit my five-character party against BBEGs that are five levels higher than them (which is a more powerful opponent by comparison than the standard I mentioned above), and the villains usually get completely annihilated (though they could probably have escaped before that point had they had the plans for it). According to the EL charts, a four-character party should only have a 50-50 chance of winning a fight against an EL that is four levels higher than their average level. I think that is probably the case if given a standard party and a whole gamut of random encounters of that level. A standard party, however, is not an optimized one, and as a DM, I don't recommend ever simply running a randomly rolled encounters. Parties and their foes both have strengths and weaknesses. It's better to assess how a fight will go beforehand than simply rely on the EL chart. An appropriate BBEG's level could easily vary from three to six higher than a party's.
TheChilliGod 02-24-07, 07:31 PM	I'd say two levels higher than the rest of the party is fair enough, but... Never skimp on the lower-level guards/buffers and such. You have no idea how important they are during BBEG fights. Two fighters or barbarians or some such characters one or two levels lower than the party accompanying the villain usually work well enough to distract the party while the villain has time to show off his awesome moves and stuff. That should put the overall EL at about 3 or something above the party level, which seems fair enough.
zzakk2to2 02-24-07, 07:38 PM	I would say that ChilliGod is right with what he said. Also because he almost got killed he should be at least prepared enough to know some of their weaknesses (and not to go near the barbarian).
Kukamunga 02-24-07, 08:12 PM	This also depends on how much time the villian has to prepare and to observe the players a BBEG that is six levels ahead of hte party.. will be no match if hes caught in bed by the party but a BBEG that is only two or three ahead could easily annialiate the party given weeks of specializing and observation, making sure the right buffs and spells are in place and making sure to memorize the players combat strategys, strengths and weaknesses... Just a thought
zzakk2to2 02-24-07, 08:14 PM	A first level commoner with enough time to study you and a few thousand can kill a 20th level PC.
CharlieRock 02-24-07, 09:59 PM	Never skimp on the lower-level guards/buffers and such. You have no idea how important they are during BBEG fights. Two fighters or barbarians or some such characters one or two levels lower than the party accompanying the villain usually work well enough to distract the party while the villain has time to show off his awesome moves and stuff. Very important there. What's Skeletor without Beast-Man? A speedbump for BattleCat! :cool: Plus, you can use all those 'wierd' classes that no one ever seems to really play (Knight, Samurai, Ranger ... these will vary from team to team, but you can add whatever class has been lacking). Also, these 'Arch-Minions' should have their own level appropriate buffs&stuffs (potion of barkskin maybe, and a masterwork weapon for level 4s would do). This also has an unseen side-benefit. If the main boss guy goes down but some Arch-Minions survive ... add a few more levels behind the scenes and you have next adventure's BBEG: a revenge driven Arch-Minion! :plotting:
Class_A_Infidel 02-24-07, 10:03 PM	Two levels above the average PC is not enough. Simply not enough. They have to be extremely tough for four people to have any sort of difficulty taking them down. Just look in real life; four tweens can be a serious headache for a single adult in a serious fight.
CharlieRock 02-24-07, 10:14 PM	Just look in real life; four tweens can be a serious headache for a single adult in a serious fight. Real life does not have BBEGs though. Two levels higher is plenty high enough if they have other advantages like a)defending their own lair (traps) b)ambushing the party ("this is too easy, guys..." or c)has an apprentice (even the emporer had Vader). If your the kind of DM who does video game style battles, (everyone lines up and batters at each other in a repeated process of annihilation) then I could see this as an issue. If you included the above elements you would see that too much higher in level then plus two would be a TPK waiting to happen (though those are fun, too.):evillaugh
Class_A_Infidel 02-24-07, 10:21 PM	But my point stands. Four tweens will be a considerable challenge to an average adult; not so much if the adult has two eight-year-old bodyguards and is on the high ground and is wielding a stick. I'm beginning to get ideas for my players' next trip to the Plane of Chaos...
Votan 02-24-07, 10:28 PM	I kind of agree at level +4 for mid-level play. I am surprised that level 6 wasn't sufficently high for a level 4 party. Another thing to keep in mind is that level works well with 25 point buy and core rulebooks. Players with other options often end up a level or two higher in effective ability. I also tend to give BBEG critters maximum hit points. It makes the actual fight work a lot better in practice.
OneWinged4ngel 02-25-07, 02:28 AM	Honestly? They can be any level you want them to be. Including a *lower level* than the party. One of my favorite villains was a very skilled manipulator and clever trickster, and though he was low level he could make the lives of much stronger PCs very difficult indeed. The thing is... there's much more to difficulty than level. There's how intelligently you play your villain. There's always the old byline "Don't underestimate the kobolds, they're clever little bastards." If you want the villain to brute force the party, on his own, using no tactics, then you'll have to make him extremely powerful by comparison. At full power, a smart party using all its resources can expect to take out enemies of a great deal higher level than themselves.
Sadrx 02-25-07, 02:31 AM	Honestly? They can be any level you want them to be. Including a *lower level* than the party. One of my favorite villains was a very skilled manipulator and clever trickster, and though he was low level he could make the lives of much stronger PCs very difficult indeed. The thing is... there's much more to difficulty than level. There's how intelligently you play your villain. There's always the old byline "Don't underestimate the kobolds, they're clever little bastards." If you want the villain to brute force the party, on his own, using no tactics, then you'll have to make him extremely powerful by comparison. At full power, a smart party using all its resources can expect to take out enemies of a great deal higher level than themselves. Let us never forget a fine -- if slightly skewed -- example of this: the Pun-Pun of only level 2.
Senevri 02-25-07, 08:29 AM	Hmm. First, one should figure out the party's CR, for kicks. - Default 25 PB: +1 - every 10 points over 25 point buy? +1 CR (often happens with 4d6 drop lowest.) - Focused on some combat-specific area and very good at it? +2 CR So--- while a single, 4 levels higher creature might be a good encounter of a party of four, rogue-wizard-fighter-cleric team with average PHB choices, making the BBEG 8 levels higher is not entirely out of the question. My specific party which is very good at dealing HP damage can usually drop anything non-godly in two rounds. Cannon fodder helps a LOT, though -- I can successfully challenge them with creatures five levels lower, specifically designed to just give bare minimum of experience... They ALWAYS win, but usually not without getting hit at least a few times.
krichaiushii 02-25-07, 09:46 AM	ChiliGod and the others who spoke of villians having minions/guards/pets were spot on. If its one villain against four PCs, that is the equivalent of four actions (often before) the villain's one. Enough low-level distractors to prevent PCs from focusing attacks from the start of the combat should let most villains survive long enough to use that cool ability, say their dramatic speech, or run away. Which segues nicely into most intelligent creatures having a desire to live, so villains should have an escape plan AND a trigger to execute the escape plan. Just a thought.
Cherrn 02-25-07, 09:57 AM	The villain can be any lvl you desire him to be. In my last campaign the BBEG was a lvl 5 character(fighter lvl 2, aristocrat lvl 4). Party had met him plenty of times and even helped him and been on good terms with him, until said villian began pushing for the throne. He was 3rd in line, so it meant he had to kill his two older brothers. Seeing as how he was a real lazy "i'm staying on the couch" style villain he didn't earn much by doing that. It was quite hilarious when the party had fought an epic battle against his guardian, finally getting past it, and then the level 10 fighter/prestige class something ran the "bbeg" through on his first hit. My point is, your villain can be any level. Just play your cards accordingly.
BW0222 02-25-07, 02:21 PM	draven_defay, What level should the enemies be in comparison with the party? By the CR system, an NPC two level higher than a four person party is a good fight. In most cases, you can either stretch it to three levels or provide the single NPC with some minions, warning, home turf, or have him going after the PCs, etc. Nothing of course prevents you from going higher, but typically not in a direct fight unless the PCs are set-up to gain surprise or attack on their terms. For example, a group of 3rd-level PCs are going after a 5th-level wizard. The wizard's familiar is in the cave mouth, their is a pit trap, and a locked door. That's likely a good fight. It's likely the NPC will have time to prepare and the PCs can just rush him. On the flip side, if the four 3rd-level PCs were going after an unaware wizard and prepared an ambush in the city market... a 5th-level wizard would be down in a couple of seconds.
Kukamunga 02-25-07, 03:00 PM	Hey quick question for you guys... Do you guys advance your BBEG's in xp in a realistic fasion.. or do you have them stagnate in the power department?
CroBob 02-25-07, 03:30 PM	I once had an Average party level of 12 go after a level 18 wizard. They waited until that wizard was outside his element before ambushing him. He had to leave what is typically his safe-haven to meet with nobles of the nation he was attempting to conquer subtly. In that meeting, he had few defenses, and the couple spells he did have on had to be unnoticable except by magically scanning for them, and they had to last a long time so that they, well, wouldn't dissapear by the time they may be needed. So, the party busts in, half of the party grapples the crap out of him, the wizard prepares to counterspell, and the archer had arrows trained on him. That was all in the surprise round. Of course, the wizard tried his still, silent teleport, but it gets counterspelled. He tried something else, his last resort, just in case, get-away, I think still, silent dimension door, but it, too, got countered. Six levels higher bad guy, piece of cake. Of course, the players were meant to attack him then and to have at least a mostly easy time of it (he was not the BBEG of the campaign), but my point stands. Level alone doesn't mean a whole lot.
draven_defay 02-25-07, 05:01 PM	I thought I mentioned this, but I guess not. The party also consists of 5 members. So their ECL together would have been 4.6 so 5, so he should have been level 8 or 9. Damnit! I had him as level 8 at first, shoulda stuck with it. Well, he will be better equipped when they meet again!:evillaugh