Approx. Value of 1 GP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Approx. Value of 1 GP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PwnageLlama
03-17-07, 04:30 PM My new players wanted to know the value of 1 GP. I showed them the item charts, but they were not satisfied.

About how many dollars is 1 GP?
Comus
03-17-07, 04:33 PM $20. Can't remember exactly where I saw it, but the amount stuck in my mind. Prolly in an article on this site somewhere.
Kursk
03-17-07, 04:35 PM My new players wanted to know the value of 1 GP. I showed them the item charts, but they were not satisfied.

About how many dollars is 1 GP?

1 GP is about 1/3 Oz. An ounce of gold is about $600. = ~$200 per GP

A trained hireling (commoner) makes 3 sp a day = 94 GP/year = ~ $19,000 /year
Evil DM Mk3
03-17-07, 04:36 PM The problem is this, it is allways either calculated by working form values on tables (dodgy as a 10ft pole, for example, is much cheaper to make today than it was then) or form the price of gold (wich results in silly pricing because gold if much dearer today).

Short answer, no way to be sure.
Zorminster
03-17-07, 05:06 PM the best way to equate it might be by examininging services from PHB 129.

A poor room would be akin to the snazzy bates motel- cockroaches, you wake up and are out 4 hours before checkout because you can't stand to be there any longer. Id say this is worth 25-30$ a night or 2sp. 30x5 = 150$ per gp.

A common room is more like 60-80$ a night, and 5sp- 70x2 = 120$ per GP

A good room is 2gp, perhaps the equivalent of a honeymoon suite nowadys- lets say 250$ = 125$ per gp

Examining foodstuffs-
Loaf of breadk- 2cp, 2$ x 50 = 1gp = 100$
Good meal - lets call this a trip to somewhere like red lobster- you get a nice meal for about 20$ = 5sp which makes gold a measly 40$ per GP

Looks like the best approximation may come from inn rooms @ about 125$ per gold piece. The previous post relating 94gp = 19000 => 200$=1gp seems really reasonable for unskilled labor. Thats like a highschool drop out so it seems reasonable.

Of course, you can always go with the standby- "Its worth whatever you can get someone to give you for it"
Angel Black
03-17-07, 05:08 PM Ask Wizards :What is the "exchange value" of the D&D gold piece compared to today’s real world dollar? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061110a)

Value of a GP (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=724727)

:)
BW0222
03-17-07, 05:23 PM PwnageLlama,

Values in the ancient world and modern day have little relationship.

DMG (p105) says that a commoner (cook, laborer, maid, porter, etc.) earns 1sp/day. That is 30sp/month or 36gp/year. Assume a minimum wage is $7/hour, $1100/month, or $13,000 or so per year.

A rough comparision says that 1gp is worth about $400 or so.

This is fine, but... issues between todays industrialized society and ancient societies then cause issues as soon as you take things any futher.

Costs of food, clothing, and shelter are much different than just straight comparisons. Food and manufactured goods are cheap today because a machine can make thousands of pairs of jeans in minutes. In ancient times, your wife made your clothes because few could afford it. Today, we have bananas shipped from South America. In ancient times, most folks went hungry because mass production and transport of food was non-existant. Housing rarely works out to todays pricing since folks often slept ten to a room, entire families stayed in a house for long periods of time, and land ownership was strickly controlled.
OneWinged4ngel
03-17-07, 06:58 PM Quite simply, the D&D economy doesn't even begin to make sense (You can hire a mighty mercenary army for the cost of digging a hole, for example), and comparisons to the modern dollar will just drive you up the wall.
Amon_WinterfallIV
03-17-07, 06:58 PM Heres how I see it:

Unskilled labor gets 1sp/ day, or the equivialant of $50 per day--the rough estimate of what about minimum wage in the USA for one day.

1gp, then, equals $500.

This means that the basic staples we take for granted today (grains, foodstuffs, even ale) is much more expensive than it should be--even a Cp is equal to $5.

I'd also like to note, that when the USA was founded, a US Dollar had about 500 times the value it has today, but it also had only about 50 times the purchasing power (or something like that). Industrialization is truly awesome...
Senevri
03-17-07, 06:59 PM Of course, in D&D good clerics willing to create food & water are probably popular.

My trick? I use guilds - practically everyone belongs to a guild, which enforce certain rates. Most guilds have a connection to THE guild - The Mage's Guild. Which... you pretty much don't want to mess with.
BW0222
03-17-07, 07:38 PM Senevri,

Of course, in D&D good clerics willing to create food & water are probably popular.

Distribution of clerics and magic in standard D&D campaigns is far too low to have any significant impact on D&D economics.

If 1 in 10 folks were PC classes and only 1 in 100 of those were 5th-level, you'd only expect maybe 1 in 5000 or so to be 5th-level clerics. If you look at the DMG charts for levels, a small town of 1000 might have a one 5th-level cleric in it. Entire countrysides of villages and smaller communities would have no one of those levels.

And even in places where those folks exist, it is not economically useful to have them casting spells for mundane purposes. Only the ultra rich nobles could afford to have a cleric on service and it would cost more than having a hundred farmers on staff. Far easier to hire the hundred farmers, or just have serfs which virtually pay you to farm your lands, than hire a cleric of those levels.

If you had the money to hire a cleric of those levels it would be to do something which you couldn't otherwise buy. Divinations spells, curing of disease, neutralizing of poisons, healing of serious wounds, serving with an army, gaining political favor with the church, etc.

My trick? I use guilds - practically everyone belongs to a guild, which enforce certain rates. Most guilds have a connection to THE guild - The Mage's Guild. Which... you pretty much don't want to mess with.

Most skilled folks (masons, coopers, teamsters, guardsmen, etc.) did belong to guilds. However, that didn't significantly increase their pay rates as they were not unions. Most skilled folks went through an apprenticeship system where they could work for years without earning any wages.

Wizards are even rarer than clerics. You would need a small city (2,500 or so) to have even one wizard possibly high enough level to have a wizard's guild. Say 7th, 2 3rds, and 4 1st level wizards. Any community smaller than this might have a few 4th at best. The idea of churches or wizards guilds in anything but the most major cities isn't the norm in D&D campaigns.
Drausktanchache
03-17-07, 08:46 PM I did the calculaton on this before, but can't remember so i'll do it again.

1/3 oz x $715.5/oz. = $238.5/gold piece
Kursk
03-17-07, 09:37 PM I did the calculaton on this before, but can't remember so i'll do it again.

1/3 oz x $715.5/oz. = $238.5/gold piece

Gold is about $650 US dollar. At least on the exchanges.
Deekin
03-17-07, 11:11 PM Urban Arcana for D20 Modern-

A gold piece is not solid gold- and it is worth about 20$.

Think about how you use 20 doller bills to buy stuff
look at how players spend gold pieces.

PC's are rich.
maelstrom58
03-17-07, 11:12 PM The D&D values are based off of the Ancient Roman economy--your average laborer was paid one denarius (the standard silver piece, which economists today have valued as the equivelent of around $20 USD as of 2003) a day. Thus, the gold piece of the standard D&D economy would be worth $200 USD by logical extension.

Note that ten denarii did not equal one aureus (or whatever the Republic / Empire was using at the time), which is a can of worms not worth opening.

If you have any more questions, check this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius#Comparisons_and_silver_content
Kursk
03-17-07, 11:55 PM Urban Arcana for D20 Modern-

A gold piece is not solid gold- and it is worth about 20$.

This is about D&D, not Urban Arcana...
Comus
03-18-07, 12:57 AM This is about D&D, not Urban Arcana...

Urban Arcana is the bridge between normal D&D and d20 Modern. Since we're talking about GP and trying to convert to dollars, it would seem the likely expert source, no?
DrMorganes
03-18-07, 01:12 AM Gah!

Honestly, I see very little point in even trying. In the 24 years I've been playing this game I have NEVER had someone even vaguely interesting in equating a gold piece with a US dollar. Not once.

Given the wonkiness of the D&D "economy", which is intended to soak the obscene amounts of wealth acquired by adventurers and not actually represent a viable economic structure, you're asking for a major headache. Better to encourage your players to suspend disbelief and buy into what a gp will get them in-game rather than worry about how some make-believe monetary unit might translate into real-world currency.
Kursk
03-18-07, 10:50 AM Urban Arcana is the bridge between normal D&D and d20 Modern. Since we're talking about GP and trying to convert to dollars, it would seem the likely expert source, no?

No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern.
AngelofCthulhu
03-18-07, 10:54 AM No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern.

The problem is recently the value of gold and silver has begun to sky rocket, so any attempts to equate the American dollar and the GP system would be like equating apples and basketballs in terms of killing power. You don't.
Kursk
03-18-07, 11:16 AM The problem is recently the value of gold and silver has begun to sky rocket, so any attempts to equate the American dollar and the GP system would be like equating apples and basketballs in terms of killing power. You don't.

Actually not. Gold is about $650/oz. A hireling in D&D makes the equivalent in GP/year of about $20k (when converted to US $).

Considering that back in those times room & board were usually included, it is quite accurate.
CharlieRock
03-18-07, 11:22 AM About how many dollars is 1 GP?
None. That is like finding the atom count of a Dragon's scale. Too different /two different worlds.

Even the Roman Empire's denar (a silver coin) has this problem. So it is not limited to fictional currency.
Comus
03-18-07, 12:15 PM No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern.
Are... are you now arguing that the D&D economy somehow relates in any way to a real-world system? The players want to know the BUYING POWER of a GP, not how much gold is worth as a scrap metal.

Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20.
Kursk
03-18-07, 12:41 PM Are... are you now arguing that the D&D economy somehow relates in any way to a real-world system? The players want to know the BUYING POWER of a GP, not how much gold is worth as a scrap metal.

Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20.

Seriously, get to understand my answer. D20 Modern not equal to current real world. Players didn't ask for conversion to another D20 game. Anything you can't understand there?
CharlieRock
03-18-07, 03:41 PM Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20.
That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get.
A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier.
Edymnion
03-18-07, 03:49 PM 1 sp = $1 US.
The trick to figuring out the value is to totally freaking ignore the real world value of the metal, and just look at the price of the bulk of items in the PHB. A longsword is 15 gp. I collect swords, you can easily get a basic sword for $150. I won't list all of the examples for you, but I have done the comparisons, and the 1 sp = $1 rule holds fairly well across the board. Some things are out of whack, but its right more often than its wrong.

And before somebody brings up the absurd idea that $1 a day is unreasonably low, remember that this is for completely unskilled labor. Not to be un-PC about this, but we're talking illegal immigrant ditch digging level work here. The vast bulk of the world's population would *LOVE* to make a dollar a day.

Check over in my article on regdars for the workup for how much money a *REAL* D&D commoner would make, and you'll see that the prices of things aren't really out of whack at all.That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get.
A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier.Thats because the pay you're looking at for soldier pay is basically conscript pay. You as a modern soldier are not being paid as a conscript, you would have ranks in Profession (Soldier) and would be making Profession checks to earn gold pieces, not silver.
Kursk
03-18-07, 10:25 PM That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get.
A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier.

Umm, wrong. 3 GP = 1 oz. = $620 x2 =$1,200/month. Gee, sounds like the 10x you made! Really, the math is simple.
parad0cz
03-19-07, 12:48 AM well, i seem to remember an article somewhere where they used... i believe it was called the Beer Standard.

A mug of ale is 4cp. A mug of Bud in your standard bar is, well for easy math lets say $2. So then a copper would be 50 cents. So one gold equals $50 on the Beer Standard:-P
Comus
03-19-07, 02:23 AM Seriously, get to understand my answer. D20 Modern not equal to current real world. Players didn't ask for conversion to another D20 game. Anything you can't understand there?
Yes. You don't understand my answer. The gold market of the real world has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with how much a GP is worth. Quick - how much is a +1 longsword worth in the real world? Answer - It would be priceless, because we don't have magic here.

Similarly, there is far more gold in circulation in a standard D&D world than even exists in ours. This would devalue the currency. You need to understand that what the players want isn't the scrap metal value of the pretend gold their characters would have in our world. They want to know how much real world BUYING POWER that gold gives them.

The buying power of gold in D&D is far less than the real world. Yes, your numbers are correct if we were talking about something totally different than the question asked. Look at what Edymnion posted. His math shows a rough value fairly close to what WotC pulled out of the air for Urban Arcana - because the game uses both GP and Dollars and so requires a way to convert the buying power of one into the other.
CharlieRock
03-19-07, 08:31 AM Umm, wrong. 3 GP = 1 oz. = $620 x2 =$1,200/month. Gee, sounds like the 10x you made! Really, the math is simple.
Yes, but the buying power of my dollars were higher than the buying power of a USD stateside. I could get my fire team (4 men) drunk in a bar in central america for $20. That's a lot of cerveza! I could also buy a grenade in Europe for <$50 (plus a cammo uniform [Russian] thrown in for free.). Or a hand crafted ivory-piece chess set in Africa for <$20.
Cantankerous
03-19-07, 09:19 AM Boy is this not only area dependant, but time dependant.

When I first moved to Austria the dollar was worth almost exactly twice as much versus the local currency (then the Shilling, now the Euro) as it is now. Don't get me started on the relative merits of having Shrubbery in the WhiteHouse, but I mention this for a reason. In SHORT periods the value of any currency can flucuate immensely and this was true in medieval times as well as today.

As a gross average though I've always taken a silver piece (D&D style) to be worth about $30 as this seems a more useful "average" for the countires and places represented by the game. The buying power is pretty much the equal of a truly minimal lifestyle maintainer per day. In short it seems practical to set it about what YOUR local conditions dictate and not others. It takes about 900 Euro a month to live a decent lower end lifestyle here... so here when I set it I set it at about the equivalent of 30 Euro.

In the US where the minmumwage is a good deal higher but the cost of living is MASSIVELY higher it would also need to be higher, say around $45 a day.

Yes, you can certainly survive on less, but not without either some assistence, a lower techo-industrial base than average or accepting living conditions that would be almost unthinkable here.

Isshia
Kursk
03-19-07, 12:32 PM Yes, but the buying power of my dollars were higher than the buying power of a USD stateside. I could get my fire team (4 men) drunk in a bar in central america for $20. That's a lot of cerveza! I could also buy a grenade in Europe for <$50 (plus a cammo uniform [Russian] thrown in for free.). Or a hand crafted ivory-piece chess set in Africa for <$20.

Irrelevant. In Prague I got 10 people drunk for $20 at a small local joint. 1/2 a mile away at a major hotel beer was $2 a beer.

Your pay was what it was and actually matches what the game set for the same job if you convert by value of the metal to todays rates. My point being made, over and over and over again with my posts.
Comus
03-19-07, 02:25 PM Irrelevant. In Prague I got 10 people drunk for $20 at a small local joint. 1/2 a mile away at a major hotel beer was $2 a beer.
You don't understand the economics of the situation. You pay more for 'premium' goods because of perceived value, even if they aren't actually better. As the best example, designer label clothing. Most of the time, cheap store brand stuff is of the same quality or better. This isn't because the system is flawed. It's because you pay for the privilege of wearing designer brand clothing. That is the additional value you receive.

Your pay was what it was and actually matches what the game set for the same job if you convert by value of the metal to todays rates. My point being made, over and over and over again with my posts.
We understand that you can look at a table and convert weight of precious metals to their dollar value. You don't understand that your method is not only flawed, but irrelevant. Once again I ask you - what is the going value of +1 longswords in today's weapons market? What about unicorn horns? Can I get a price quote on an ioun stone?

The D&D economy, aside from being terribly flawed because it's designed to work as a game, not a simulation, works differently from the one in the real world. Gold has a different value, and there's a lot more of it. Please, learn some basic economics before trying to quote the buying power of a GP.
Dan Hemmens
03-19-07, 03:24 PM PwnageLlama,

Values in the ancient world and modern day have little relationship.

And values in D&D have little relationship with either.
wrecan
03-19-07, 03:50 PM As it should be, as D&D has little to do, econimically or politically, with either the modern or ancient worlds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PwnageLlama 03-17-07, 04:30 PM	My new players wanted to know the value of 1 GP. I showed them the item charts, but they were not satisfied. About how many dollars is 1 GP?
Comus 03-17-07, 04:33 PM	$20. Can't remember exactly where I saw it, but the amount stuck in my mind. Prolly in an article on this site somewhere.
Kursk 03-17-07, 04:35 PM	My new players wanted to know the value of 1 GP. I showed them the item charts, but they were not satisfied. About how many dollars is 1 GP? 1 GP is about 1/3 Oz. An ounce of gold is about $600. = ~$200 per GP A trained hireling (commoner) makes 3 sp a day = 94 GP/year = ~ $19,000 /year
Evil DM Mk3 03-17-07, 04:36 PM	The problem is this, it is allways either calculated by working form values on tables (dodgy as a 10ft pole, for example, is much cheaper to make today than it was then) or form the price of gold (wich results in silly pricing because gold if much dearer today). Short answer, no way to be sure.
Zorminster 03-17-07, 05:06 PM	the best way to equate it might be by examininging services from PHB 129. A poor room would be akin to the snazzy bates motel- cockroaches, you wake up and are out 4 hours before checkout because you can't stand to be there any longer. Id say this is worth 25-30$ a night or 2sp. 30x5 = 150$ per gp. A common room is more like 60-80$ a night, and 5sp- 70x2 = 120$ per GP A good room is 2gp, perhaps the equivalent of a honeymoon suite nowadys- lets say 250$ = 125$ per gp Examining foodstuffs- Loaf of breadk- 2cp, 2$ x 50 = 1gp = 100$ Good meal - lets call this a trip to somewhere like red lobster- you get a nice meal for about 20$ = 5sp which makes gold a measly 40$ per GP Looks like the best approximation may come from inn rooms @ about 125$ per gold piece. The previous post relating 94gp = 19000 => 200$=1gp seems really reasonable for unskilled labor. Thats like a highschool drop out so it seems reasonable. Of course, you can always go with the standby- "Its worth whatever you can get someone to give you for it"
Angel Black 03-17-07, 05:08 PM	Ask Wizards :What is the "exchange value" of the D&D gold piece compared to today’s real world dollar? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061110a) Value of a GP (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=724727) :)
BW0222 03-17-07, 05:23 PM	PwnageLlama, Values in the ancient world and modern day have little relationship. DMG (p105) says that a commoner (cook, laborer, maid, porter, etc.) earns 1sp/day. That is 30sp/month or 36gp/year. Assume a minimum wage is $7/hour, $1100/month, or $13,000 or so per year. A rough comparision says that 1gp is worth about $400 or so. This is fine, but... issues between todays industrialized society and ancient societies then cause issues as soon as you take things any futher. Costs of food, clothing, and shelter are much different than just straight comparisons. Food and manufactured goods are cheap today because a machine can make thousands of pairs of jeans in minutes. In ancient times, your wife made your clothes because few could afford it. Today, we have bananas shipped from South America. In ancient times, most folks went hungry because mass production and transport of food was non-existant. Housing rarely works out to todays pricing since folks often slept ten to a room, entire families stayed in a house for long periods of time, and land ownership was strickly controlled.
OneWinged4ngel 03-17-07, 06:58 PM	Quite simply, the D&D economy doesn't even begin to make sense (You can hire a mighty mercenary army for the cost of digging a hole, for example), and comparisons to the modern dollar will just drive you up the wall.
Amon_WinterfallIV 03-17-07, 06:58 PM	Heres how I see it: Unskilled labor gets 1sp/ day, or the equivialant of $50 per day--the rough estimate of what about minimum wage in the USA for one day. 1gp, then, equals $500. This means that the basic staples we take for granted today (grains, foodstuffs, even ale) is much more expensive than it should be--even a Cp is equal to $5. I'd also like to note, that when the USA was founded, a US Dollar had about 500 times the value it has today, but it also had only about 50 times the purchasing power (or something like that). Industrialization is truly awesome...
Senevri 03-17-07, 06:59 PM	Of course, in D&D good clerics willing to create food & water are probably popular. My trick? I use guilds - practically everyone belongs to a guild, which enforce certain rates. Most guilds have a connection to THE guild - The Mage's Guild. Which... you pretty much don't want to mess with.
BW0222 03-17-07, 07:38 PM	Senevri, Of course, in D&D good clerics willing to create food & water are probably popular. Distribution of clerics and magic in standard D&D campaigns is far too low to have any significant impact on D&D economics. If 1 in 10 folks were PC classes and only 1 in 100 of those were 5th-level, you'd only expect maybe 1 in 5000 or so to be 5th-level clerics. If you look at the DMG charts for levels, a small town of 1000 might have a one 5th-level cleric in it. Entire countrysides of villages and smaller communities would have no one of those levels. And even in places where those folks exist, it is not economically useful to have them casting spells for mundane purposes. Only the ultra rich nobles could afford to have a cleric on service and it would cost more than having a hundred farmers on staff. Far easier to hire the hundred farmers, or just have serfs which virtually pay you to farm your lands, than hire a cleric of those levels. If you had the money to hire a cleric of those levels it would be to do something which you couldn't otherwise buy. Divinations spells, curing of disease, neutralizing of poisons, healing of serious wounds, serving with an army, gaining political favor with the church, etc. My trick? I use guilds - practically everyone belongs to a guild, which enforce certain rates. Most guilds have a connection to THE guild - The Mage's Guild. Which... you pretty much don't want to mess with. Most skilled folks (masons, coopers, teamsters, guardsmen, etc.) did belong to guilds. However, that didn't significantly increase their pay rates as they were not unions. Most skilled folks went through an apprenticeship system where they could work for years without earning any wages. Wizards are even rarer than clerics. You would need a small city (2,500 or so) to have even one wizard possibly high enough level to have a wizard's guild. Say 7th, 2 3rds, and 4 1st level wizards. Any community smaller than this might have a few 4th at best. The idea of churches or wizards guilds in anything but the most major cities isn't the norm in D&D campaigns.
Drausktanchache 03-17-07, 08:46 PM	I did the calculaton on this before, but can't remember so i'll do it again. 1/3 oz x $715.5/oz. = $238.5/gold piece
Kursk 03-17-07, 09:37 PM	I did the calculaton on this before, but can't remember so i'll do it again. 1/3 oz x $715.5/oz. = $238.5/gold piece Gold is about $650 US dollar. At least on the exchanges.
Deekin 03-17-07, 11:11 PM	Urban Arcana for D20 Modern- A gold piece is not solid gold- and it is worth about 20$. Think about how you use 20 doller bills to buy stuff look at how players spend gold pieces. PC's are rich.
maelstrom58 03-17-07, 11:12 PM	The D&D values are based off of the Ancient Roman economy--your average laborer was paid one denarius (the standard silver piece, which economists today have valued as the equivelent of around $20 USD as of 2003) a day. Thus, the gold piece of the standard D&D economy would be worth $200 USD by logical extension. Note that ten denarii did not equal one aureus (or whatever the Republic / Empire was using at the time), which is a can of worms not worth opening. If you have any more questions, check this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius#Comparisons_and_silver_content
Kursk 03-17-07, 11:55 PM	Urban Arcana for D20 Modern- A gold piece is not solid gold- and it is worth about 20$. This is about D&D, not Urban Arcana...
Comus 03-18-07, 12:57 AM	This is about D&D, not Urban Arcana... Urban Arcana is the bridge between normal D&D and d20 Modern. Since we're talking about GP and trying to convert to dollars, it would seem the likely expert source, no?
DrMorganes 03-18-07, 01:12 AM	Gah! Honestly, I see very little point in even trying. In the 24 years I've been playing this game I have NEVER had someone even vaguely interesting in equating a gold piece with a US dollar. Not once. Given the wonkiness of the D&D "economy", which is intended to soak the obscene amounts of wealth acquired by adventurers and not actually represent a viable economic structure, you're asking for a major headache. Better to encourage your players to suspend disbelief and buy into what a gp will get them in-game rather than worry about how some make-believe monetary unit might translate into real-world currency.
Kursk 03-18-07, 10:50 AM	Urban Arcana is the bridge between normal D&D and d20 Modern. Since we're talking about GP and trying to convert to dollars, it would seem the likely expert source, no? No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern.
AngelofCthulhu 03-18-07, 10:54 AM	No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern. The problem is recently the value of gold and silver has begun to sky rocket, so any attempts to equate the American dollar and the GP system would be like equating apples and basketballs in terms of killing power. You don't.
Kursk 03-18-07, 11:16 AM	The problem is recently the value of gold and silver has begun to sky rocket, so any attempts to equate the American dollar and the GP system would be like equating apples and basketballs in terms of killing power. You don't. Actually not. Gold is about $650/oz. A hireling in D&D makes the equivalent in GP/year of about $20k (when converted to US $). Considering that back in those times room & board were usually included, it is quite accurate.
CharlieRock 03-18-07, 11:22 AM	About how many dollars is 1 GP? None. That is like finding the atom count of a Dragon's scale. Too different /two different worlds. Even the Roman Empire's denar (a silver coin) has this problem. So it is not limited to fictional currency.
Comus 03-18-07, 12:15 PM	No, because the data doesn't match the real world. Gold coins have historically been about 22 carat. So, no not relevant. He wasn't asking what it's worth in D20 modern. Are... are you now arguing that the D&D economy somehow relates in any way to a real-world system? The players want to know the BUYING POWER of a GP, not how much gold is worth as a scrap metal. Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20.
Kursk 03-18-07, 12:41 PM	Are... are you now arguing that the D&D economy somehow relates in any way to a real-world system? The players want to know the BUYING POWER of a GP, not how much gold is worth as a scrap metal. Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20. Seriously, get to understand my answer. D20 Modern not equal to current real world. Players didn't ask for conversion to another D20 game. Anything you can't understand there?
CharlieRock 03-18-07, 03:41 PM	Seriously. Get to understand the real question. The players want to know how the buying power of a gold piece compares to the buying power of modern currency. In-game, WotC has decided the buying power of a GP is roughly $20. That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get. A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier.
Edymnion 03-18-07, 03:49 PM	1 sp = $1 US. The trick to figuring out the value is to totally freaking ignore the real world value of the metal, and just look at the price of the bulk of items in the PHB. A longsword is 15 gp. I collect swords, you can easily get a basic sword for $150. I won't list all of the examples for you, but I have done the comparisons, and the 1 sp = $1 rule holds fairly well across the board. Some things are out of whack, but its right more often than its wrong. And before somebody brings up the absurd idea that $1 a day is unreasonably low, remember that this is for completely unskilled labor. Not to be un-PC about this, but we're talking illegal immigrant ditch digging level work here. The vast bulk of the world's population would LOVE to make a dollar a day. Check over in my article on regdars for the workup for how much money a REAL D&D commoner would make, and you'll see that the prices of things aren't really out of whack at all.That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get. A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier.Thats because the pay you're looking at for soldier pay is basically conscript pay. You as a modern soldier are not being paid as a conscript, you would have ranks in Profession (Soldier) and would be making Profession checks to earn gold pieces, not silver.
Kursk 03-18-07, 10:25 PM	That's not totally accurate. As a commoner worker would make about a fraction of what an American worker could get. A soldier in D&D makes 2sp per day. That's 60sp a month (appx.) or 6gp. That would only be $120 a month. I made over ten times that as a soldier. Umm, wrong. 3 GP = 1 oz. = $620 x2 =$1,200/month. Gee, sounds like the 10x you made! Really, the math is simple.
parad0cz 03-19-07, 12:48 AM	well, i seem to remember an article somewhere where they used... i believe it was called the Beer Standard. A mug of ale is 4cp. A mug of Bud in your standard bar is, well for easy math lets say $2. So then a copper would be 50 cents. So one gold equals $50 on the Beer Standard:-P
Comus 03-19-07, 02:23 AM	Seriously, get to understand my answer. D20 Modern not equal to current real world. Players didn't ask for conversion to another D20 game. Anything you can't understand there? Yes. You don't understand my answer. The gold market of the real world has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with how much a GP is worth. Quick - how much is a +1 longsword worth in the real world? Answer - It would be priceless, because we don't have magic here. Similarly, there is far more gold in circulation in a standard D&D world than even exists in ours. This would devalue the currency. You need to understand that what the players want isn't the scrap metal value of the pretend gold their characters would have in our world. They want to know how much real world BUYING POWER that gold gives them. The buying power of gold in D&D is far less than the real world. Yes, your numbers are correct if we were talking about something totally different than the question asked. Look at what Edymnion posted. His math shows a rough value fairly close to what WotC pulled out of the air for Urban Arcana - because the game uses both GP and Dollars and so requires a way to convert the buying power of one into the other.
CharlieRock 03-19-07, 08:31 AM	Umm, wrong. 3 GP = 1 oz. = $620 x2 =$1,200/month. Gee, sounds like the 10x you made! Really, the math is simple. Yes, but the buying power of my dollars were higher than the buying power of a USD stateside. I could get my fire team (4 men) drunk in a bar in central america for $20. That's a lot of cerveza! I could also buy a grenade in Europe for <$50 (plus a cammo uniform [Russian] thrown in for free.). Or a hand crafted ivory-piece chess set in Africa for <$20.
Cantankerous 03-19-07, 09:19 AM	Boy is this not only area dependant, but time dependant. When I first moved to Austria the dollar was worth almost exactly twice as much versus the local currency (then the Shilling, now the Euro) as it is now. Don't get me started on the relative merits of having Shrubbery in the WhiteHouse, but I mention this for a reason. In SHORT periods the value of any currency can flucuate immensely and this was true in medieval times as well as today. As a gross average though I've always taken a silver piece (D&D style) to be worth about $30 as this seems a more useful "average" for the countires and places represented by the game. The buying power is pretty much the equal of a truly minimal lifestyle maintainer per day. In short it seems practical to set it about what YOUR local conditions dictate and not others. It takes about 900 Euro a month to live a decent lower end lifestyle here... so here when I set it I set it at about the equivalent of 30 Euro. In the US where the minmumwage is a good deal higher but the cost of living is MASSIVELY higher it would also need to be higher, say around $45 a day. Yes, you can certainly survive on less, but not without either some assistence, a lower techo-industrial base than average or accepting living conditions that would be almost unthinkable here. Isshia
Kursk 03-19-07, 12:32 PM	Yes, but the buying power of my dollars were higher than the buying power of a USD stateside. I could get my fire team (4 men) drunk in a bar in central america for $20. That's a lot of cerveza! I could also buy a grenade in Europe for <$50 (plus a cammo uniform [Russian] thrown in for free.). Or a hand crafted ivory-piece chess set in Africa for <$20. Irrelevant. In Prague I got 10 people drunk for $20 at a small local joint. 1/2 a mile away at a major hotel beer was $2 a beer. Your pay was what it was and actually matches what the game set for the same job if you convert by value of the metal to todays rates. My point being made, over and over and over again with my posts.
Comus 03-19-07, 02:25 PM	Irrelevant. In Prague I got 10 people drunk for $20 at a small local joint. 1/2 a mile away at a major hotel beer was $2 a beer. You don't understand the economics of the situation. You pay more for 'premium' goods because of perceived value, even if they aren't actually better. As the best example, designer label clothing. Most of the time, cheap store brand stuff is of the same quality or better. This isn't because the system is flawed. It's because you pay for the privilege of wearing designer brand clothing. That is the additional value you receive. Your pay was what it was and actually matches what the game set for the same job if you convert by value of the metal to todays rates. My point being made, over and over and over again with my posts. We understand that you can look at a table and convert weight of precious metals to their dollar value. You don't understand that your method is not only flawed, but irrelevant. Once again I ask you - what is the going value of +1 longswords in today's weapons market? What about unicorn horns? Can I get a price quote on an ioun stone? The D&D economy, aside from being terribly flawed because it's designed to work as a game, not a simulation, works differently from the one in the real world. Gold has a different value, and there's a lot more of it. Please, learn some basic economics before trying to quote the buying power of a GP.
Dan Hemmens 03-19-07, 03:24 PM	PwnageLlama, Values in the ancient world and modern day have little relationship. And values in D&D have little relationship with either.
wrecan 03-19-07, 03:50 PM	As it should be, as D&D has little to do, econimically or politically, with either the modern or ancient worlds.