Arcane Miracles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Miracles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
11-06-03, 08:11 PM Okay, here's the deal up front.
Sorcerer has been a devout follower of a god, is on very good terms with said god, and is being played by a good player that doesn't abuse the system.

I'm thinking of letting them take Miracle as a spell known instead of Wish. Or perhaps letting them learn Wish and using it to "get the god's attention", letting them replace Wish with Miracle.

Be a nice thing to work into the character as they've been playing the religious aspect pretty well, and it would seem to fit themantically, but I'd like to get some other opinions first.

And again, this is a responsible player, not one that is going to start using Miracle as many times per day as possible just because it doesn't have the 5,000 xp casting cost. And with Miracle, I can always override the spell with "Your deity doesn't think thats a good idea" instead of getting into the whole perverted wish bit.
ante_up
11-06-03, 08:22 PM Sorcerers channel arcane energy, which comes from thereself or the forces of magic. Clerics channel divine energy, which comes from the gods. A sorcerer can't channel divine energy, as he has no experience in doing so. The player should not get Miracle. If the god wants to reward him for being devout, have the god grant him some other sort of boon.
GoodTeletubby
11-06-03, 08:40 PM i'd say no miracle, but if he's on really good terms with his deity, allow some miracle-like effects with no perversion

essentially he could still blow the 5k XP and use wish to ask his deity for aid

nothing stoping him from doing that
MinusInnocence
11-06-03, 08:41 PM Agreed. I feel granting the Sorcerer use of this spell would be to trivialize clerics and their potential.

Then again, I don't like Wish OR Miracle. The first at least has an XP penalty attached to it, but Miracle just seems redundant when you consider the cleric has been currying favor from his deity or whatever all along. So, why does it suddenly gel one day into a more substantial reward?
Grizelda
11-06-03, 08:50 PM hmm i seem to be in the minority here but if the afformentioned situation what with the roleplay and maturity is in effect then i see no reason why you couldn't give him miracle, especially since the diety has say over what flies and what doesnt. If he has that kinda devotion to his diety why not, it's your game, and if he *does* try to abuse it.. not only can the diety over ride him but you'd also be in within your rights to have the diety restrict his access to his own spells.. to be sure it'd be a fairly innovative idea and would have to be closely monitored, i mean realistically what *else* is he gonna do with those 3 9th level spell slots a day, sorcerers arent known for their affinity for metamagic after all. but played correctly it could make for a good game, just be prepared to draw the ire from the growing masses of those who choose to take levels in the "Mindless Drone" prestige class and will actually become physically angry at you for playing non-core D&D regardless if they are players in your game or even have ever met you. :) There is much potential for abuse but if both you and the player both have your head screwed on straight, go for it, you can always have the diety change his mind if you wish.
ante_up
11-07-03, 12:20 AM Originally posted by Grizelda
hmm i seem to be in the minority here but if the afformentioned situation what with the roleplay and maturity is in effect then i see no reason why you couldn't give him miracle, especially since the diety has say over what flies and what doesnt.

The god would be giving the cleric far more than a spell, he would be giving the cleric the ability to cast a divine spell. The magic spells clerics recieve aren't given just out of there devotion; a cleric also needs to be able to handle the divine energy channeling through him. Piety isn't a factor. A incredibly pious character who is level 1 won't be able to cast miracle, while a less dedicated character who is 17th level will. So in essense, by giving the sorcerer the ability to cast miracle, he is also giving the character the ability to channel a great ammount of divine energy, an amount only the most experienced clerics will be able to handle.
gleep
11-07-03, 12:39 AM I'd go with the Wish angle... If the character's deity is friendly, there's no reason why that deity couldn't supply the extra "energy" for the wish without a perversion of the intent. If there is any twisting involved, it would be in a way that would benefit the Deity's purpose and future plans. You could even have the deity share, or completely subsume, the XP cost for the character. In fact, amount of partial XP cost would tell the character just how much the deity favored the wish.

The "perversion" clause is the metagame DM's break on the wishng players. It doesn't have to be applied.

One of my characters has had a friendly arrangement like this for quite some time... with not one, but two deities. And has never used it.

:D

--gleep
Rabe
11-07-03, 03:42 AM There is an easy solution: create a new spell, lets call it Alter Reality, and make it more like Miracle than Wish (it is a call to his deity for making something to happen).

I wouldnt just switch the spells, and let both stand as they are for various reasons: other players might acquire them and they are found in items. Besides, I would still like the sorcerer´s "miracle" arcane-oriented, allowing him better access to arcane than to divine spells.

Aside from this technical aspect I see no reason why you should not do it.

Rabe
ikkonoishi
11-07-03, 09:08 AM I personally don't have a problem with it.

Frankly I think a better boon for a sorcerer would be to grant them access to one of the deity's domains, but that might be a bit... much.
imayb1
11-07-03, 09:19 AM I'm with Grizelda on this one...

If the player is mature and responsible enough, it fits the character, it would further the plot, etc... Go for it! It sounds to me like a good idea.
Thrashmage
11-07-03, 03:02 PM Originally posted by ikkonoishi
I personally don't have a problem with it.

Frankly I think a better boon for a sorcerer would be to grant them access to one of the deity's domains, but that might be a bit... much.

This makes more sense, really. It's been shown that arcane spellcasters can gain a clerical domain through prestige classes and such, adding the spells to their list of available ones to cast. Why mess with the spells (even though it most likely would work out well enough) when they nearly do the same thing, and you could tweak Wish to accomplish Miracle in roughly the same way.

Pick a clerical domain that suits both the god and the player, and let him add some or all of the spells to his list. It would be a great boon, and it shouldn't overpower him too much since he's already 17th level or higher if he can cast Wish.
sanishiver
11-07-03, 04:16 PM Seems like a good idea to me.

[Q]: Is there a Cleric in the party? And ifso, what would he think of this?

:whatsthis
Edymnion
11-08-03, 12:13 AM Originally posted by Thrashmage
This makes more sense, really. It's been shown that arcane spellcasters can gain a clerical domain through prestige classes and such, adding the spells to their list of available ones to cast. Why mess with the spells (even though it most likely would work out well enough) when they nearly do the same thing, and you could tweak Wish to accomplish Miracle in roughly the same way. Actually, he's already going to be getting access to a divine domain via a homebrew PrC, so he doesn't need another one. And I'm already allowing a few spells to cross the divine/arcane boundry (in both directions) on a case-by-case basis.

I could just say he can "research" (its a sorcerer, they don't research spells, but you know what I mean) a varient of wish without the xp cost and a higher power double-checking each casting of it, but why re-invent the wheel when you've already got the exact same thing listed as a divine spell?

I could essentially make it a Miracle spell that requires an outpouring of will in the form of say... 500xp to get the god's attention, and run with it from there.
PhaedrusXY
11-08-03, 12:48 AM He could probably get Miracle via a Prestige Class that gives him a domain with it anyway, so that rules out it being unbalanced. It is already possible within the rules for a Sorcerer to get it. Miracle is a thorn in my side anyway. It irks me that clerics, who only had up to 7th level spells in earlier editions, now have the most powerful spell in the game instead of Wizards. (And I say Wizards here, but include Sorcerers) I think Wish should be redone to allow Wizards to duplicate lesser spells in exactly the same way Miracle does, with no XP cost.
Edymnion
11-08-03, 12:55 AM Originally posted by PhaedrusXY
He could probably get Miracle via a Prestige Class that gives him a domain with it anyway, so that rules out it being unbalanced. It is already possible within the rules for a Sorcerer to get it. Miracle is a thorn in my side anyway. It irks me that clerics, who only had up to 7th level spells in earlier editions, now have the most powerful spell in the game instead of Wizards. (And I say Wizards here, but include Sorcerers) I think Wish should be redone to allow Wizards to duplicate lesser spells in exactly the same way Miracle does, with no XP cost. Well, Miracle has a major limitation that most DMs I've seen tend to overlook. The God has to give approval for the miracle, ANY miracle. It doesn't matter if you are using miracle to reproduce a first level spell. If the god doesn't like it (like a god of life, and you're trying to copy a necromantic spell, or asking a good god to duplicate a spell with the [Evil] descriptor), the spell doesn't work. You do it repeatedly, and it could even lead to a loss of your other spells because your god is trying to tell you to knock it off. Wish will ALWAYS work if its within the power limit. No ifs ands or buts about it (unless you've got a bad DM), Wish works 100% the way you want it to unless you ask for too much, and even then it has a good chance of working normally if it isn't too far over the line.

So, if played properly, Miracle is actually weaker than Wish. Think about it, would Pelor, god of the sun, be granting anyone a Darkness spell as a personal favor? "Oh great Pelor, god of the light and all that is good, would you please cast this area into utter, impenetrable darkness?" You'd be lucky if he didn't flick you in the head for being an idiot to ask him something like that.
PhaedrusXY
11-08-03, 03:12 AM I see your point, but I am not a fan of justifying the power of a game mechanic by using roleplaying reasons to keep it in check. Of course, Miracle is far from the only spell in D&D that needs this type of "managing" by the DM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 11-06-03, 08:11 PM	Okay, here's the deal up front. Sorcerer has been a devout follower of a god, is on very good terms with said god, and is being played by a good player that doesn't abuse the system. I'm thinking of letting them take Miracle as a spell known instead of Wish. Or perhaps letting them learn Wish and using it to "get the god's attention", letting them replace Wish with Miracle. Be a nice thing to work into the character as they've been playing the religious aspect pretty well, and it would seem to fit themantically, but I'd like to get some other opinions first. And again, this is a responsible player, not one that is going to start using Miracle as many times per day as possible just because it doesn't have the 5,000 xp casting cost. And with Miracle, I can always override the spell with "Your deity doesn't think thats a good idea" instead of getting into the whole perverted wish bit.
ante_up 11-06-03, 08:22 PM	Sorcerers channel arcane energy, which comes from thereself or the forces of magic. Clerics channel divine energy, which comes from the gods. A sorcerer can't channel divine energy, as he has no experience in doing so. The player should not get Miracle. If the god wants to reward him for being devout, have the god grant him some other sort of boon.
GoodTeletubby 11-06-03, 08:40 PM	i'd say no miracle, but if he's on really good terms with his deity, allow some miracle-like effects with no perversion essentially he could still blow the 5k XP and use wish to ask his deity for aid nothing stoping him from doing that
MinusInnocence 11-06-03, 08:41 PM	Agreed. I feel granting the Sorcerer use of this spell would be to trivialize clerics and their potential. Then again, I don't like Wish OR Miracle. The first at least has an XP penalty attached to it, but Miracle just seems redundant when you consider the cleric has been currying favor from his deity or whatever all along. So, why does it suddenly gel one day into a more substantial reward?
Grizelda 11-06-03, 08:50 PM	hmm i seem to be in the minority here but if the afformentioned situation what with the roleplay and maturity is in effect then i see no reason why you couldn't give him miracle, especially since the diety has say over what flies and what doesnt. If he has that kinda devotion to his diety why not, it's your game, and if he does try to abuse it.. not only can the diety over ride him but you'd also be in within your rights to have the diety restrict his access to his own spells.. to be sure it'd be a fairly innovative idea and would have to be closely monitored, i mean realistically what else is he gonna do with those 3 9th level spell slots a day, sorcerers arent known for their affinity for metamagic after all. but played correctly it could make for a good game, just be prepared to draw the ire from the growing masses of those who choose to take levels in the "Mindless Drone" prestige class and will actually become physically angry at you for playing non-core D&D regardless if they are players in your game or even have ever met you. :) There is much potential for abuse but if both you and the player both have your head screwed on straight, go for it, you can always have the diety change his mind if you wish.
ante_up 11-07-03, 12:20 AM	Originally posted by Grizelda hmm i seem to be in the minority here but if the afformentioned situation what with the roleplay and maturity is in effect then i see no reason why you couldn't give him miracle, especially since the diety has say over what flies and what doesnt. The god would be giving the cleric far more than a spell, he would be giving the cleric the ability to cast a divine spell. The magic spells clerics recieve aren't given just out of there devotion; a cleric also needs to be able to handle the divine energy channeling through him. Piety isn't a factor. A incredibly pious character who is level 1 won't be able to cast miracle, while a less dedicated character who is 17th level will. So in essense, by giving the sorcerer the ability to cast miracle, he is also giving the character the ability to channel a great ammount of divine energy, an amount only the most experienced clerics will be able to handle.
gleep 11-07-03, 12:39 AM	I'd go with the Wish angle... If the character's deity is friendly, there's no reason why that deity couldn't supply the extra "energy" for the wish without a perversion of the intent. If there is any twisting involved, it would be in a way that would benefit the Deity's purpose and future plans. You could even have the deity share, or completely subsume, the XP cost for the character. In fact, amount of partial XP cost would tell the character just how much the deity favored the wish. The "perversion" clause is the metagame DM's break on the wishng players. It doesn't have to be applied. One of my characters has had a friendly arrangement like this for quite some time... with not one, but two deities. And has never used it. :D --gleep
Rabe 11-07-03, 03:42 AM	There is an easy solution: create a new spell, lets call it Alter Reality, and make it more like Miracle than Wish (it is a call to his deity for making something to happen). I wouldnt just switch the spells, and let both stand as they are for various reasons: other players might acquire them and they are found in items. Besides, I would still like the sorcerer´s "miracle" arcane-oriented, allowing him better access to arcane than to divine spells. Aside from this technical aspect I see no reason why you should not do it. Rabe
ikkonoishi 11-07-03, 09:08 AM	I personally don't have a problem with it. Frankly I think a better boon for a sorcerer would be to grant them access to one of the deity's domains, but that might be a bit... much.
imayb1 11-07-03, 09:19 AM	I'm with Grizelda on this one... If the player is mature and responsible enough, it fits the character, it would further the plot, etc... Go for it! It sounds to me like a good idea.
Thrashmage 11-07-03, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by ikkonoishi I personally don't have a problem with it. Frankly I think a better boon for a sorcerer would be to grant them access to one of the deity's domains, but that might be a bit... much. This makes more sense, really. It's been shown that arcane spellcasters can gain a clerical domain through prestige classes and such, adding the spells to their list of available ones to cast. Why mess with the spells (even though it most likely would work out well enough) when they nearly do the same thing, and you could tweak Wish to accomplish Miracle in roughly the same way. Pick a clerical domain that suits both the god and the player, and let him add some or all of the spells to his list. It would be a great boon, and it shouldn't overpower him too much since he's already 17th level or higher if he can cast Wish.
sanishiver 11-07-03, 04:16 PM	Seems like a good idea to me. [Q]: Is there a Cleric in the party? And ifso, what would he think of this? :whatsthis
Edymnion 11-08-03, 12:13 AM	Originally posted by Thrashmage This makes more sense, really. It's been shown that arcane spellcasters can gain a clerical domain through prestige classes and such, adding the spells to their list of available ones to cast. Why mess with the spells (even though it most likely would work out well enough) when they nearly do the same thing, and you could tweak Wish to accomplish Miracle in roughly the same way. Actually, he's already going to be getting access to a divine domain via a homebrew PrC, so he doesn't need another one. And I'm already allowing a few spells to cross the divine/arcane boundry (in both directions) on a case-by-case basis. I could just say he can "research" (its a sorcerer, they don't research spells, but you know what I mean) a varient of wish without the xp cost and a higher power double-checking each casting of it, but why re-invent the wheel when you've already got the exact same thing listed as a divine spell? I could essentially make it a Miracle spell that requires an outpouring of will in the form of say... 500xp to get the god's attention, and run with it from there.
PhaedrusXY 11-08-03, 12:48 AM	He could probably get Miracle via a Prestige Class that gives him a domain with it anyway, so that rules out it being unbalanced. It is already possible within the rules for a Sorcerer to get it. Miracle is a thorn in my side anyway. It irks me that clerics, who only had up to 7th level spells in earlier editions, now have the most powerful spell in the game instead of Wizards. (And I say Wizards here, but include Sorcerers) I think Wish should be redone to allow Wizards to duplicate lesser spells in exactly the same way Miracle does, with no XP cost.
Edymnion 11-08-03, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY He could probably get Miracle via a Prestige Class that gives him a domain with it anyway, so that rules out it being unbalanced. It is already possible within the rules for a Sorcerer to get it. Miracle is a thorn in my side anyway. It irks me that clerics, who only had up to 7th level spells in earlier editions, now have the most powerful spell in the game instead of Wizards. (And I say Wizards here, but include Sorcerers) I think Wish should be redone to allow Wizards to duplicate lesser spells in exactly the same way Miracle does, with no XP cost. Well, Miracle has a major limitation that most DMs I've seen tend to overlook. The God has to give approval for the miracle, ANY miracle. It doesn't matter if you are using miracle to reproduce a first level spell. If the god doesn't like it (like a god of life, and you're trying to copy a necromantic spell, or asking a good god to duplicate a spell with the [Evil] descriptor), the spell doesn't work. You do it repeatedly, and it could even lead to a loss of your other spells because your god is trying to tell you to knock it off. Wish will ALWAYS work if its within the power limit. No ifs ands or buts about it (unless you've got a bad DM), Wish works 100% the way you want it to unless you ask for too much, and even then it has a good chance of working normally if it isn't too far over the line. So, if played properly, Miracle is actually weaker than Wish. Think about it, would Pelor, god of the sun, be granting anyone a Darkness spell as a personal favor? "Oh great Pelor, god of the light and all that is good, would you please cast this area into utter, impenetrable darkness?" You'd be lucky if he didn't flick you in the head for being an idiot to ask him something like that.
PhaedrusXY 11-08-03, 03:12 AM	I see your point, but I am not a fan of justifying the power of a game mechanic by using roleplaying reasons to keep it in check. Of course, Miracle is far from the only spell in D&D that needs this type of "managing" by the DM.