Arcane Religon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Religon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
11d7
04-06-05, 06:58 PM How do you handle a situation when people worship the sorce of Arcane Magic? Not a god, just the concept surrounding the sorce. Are they granted Divine or Arcane magic?

This bothers me becuase well say wizards would be casting spells at the same time as worshiping the sorce (more than likly) so would it not be giving them Arcane and Divine magic? Arcane with not components or spell failure?

What?
Vharuck
04-06-05, 07:02 PM If they are clerics, they are granted divine magic because of their faith in the credos of magic. Their magic does not come from the (I think) non-sentient source of Arcane magic, but instead their faith.
Kayoz_Majick
04-06-05, 07:06 PM what you might consider doing is something similar to the Forgotten Realms books, i.e anything to do with Mystra.

Mystra has both clerics and wizards.
What is kind of unique, being the goddess of magic, is that there are some abilities granted (largely undetailed) the more devout and powerful a wizard gets worshiping Mystra.
Try setting up an ability per level that simulates a spell (like magic missile 1/day/2 level at will) OR every few levels have a meta magic feat granted.

Just a thought :cool:
astute1
04-06-05, 10:39 PM In-game, you could choose to portray them either as wizards, or as clerics with the Magic domain - or both. I'd imagine that such priests would multi-class quite a bit.
Mirikon
04-06-05, 11:49 PM I agree with the poster who said to look at how the Realms treats Mystra. That'd be a good place to start. Also, clerics of such a god would most likely multiclass, and then either take Mystic Theurge, or a special PrC for initiates of the religion.
Didge
04-07-05, 01:28 AM Ahh...but the true question comes when the following occurs (actually was a player in this home-brewed campaign).

What if you have Aithiest's who don't believe in any god that can cast clerical magic? Where's it come from?
11d7
04-07-05, 07:02 AM I've always had Divine Magic come from belif or something. Not just gods. An athiest could draw divine power from their hatred for people worshipping gods.
Vharuck
04-07-05, 07:50 AM Yup. Unless specifically stated (as in FR), a cleric is free to draw divine power from his or her own personal philosophy.
lifespeed
04-07-05, 08:34 AM Yup. Unless specifically stated (as in FR), a cleric is free to draw divine power from his or her own personal philosophy.
Which I've always found to be kind of... silly.
I ran FR for a while and it was obvious that PCs had to pick gods, but my new game is a home-brew setting, and I haven't gotten to detailing exactly how people relate to the gods. But personally, I always try to talk up worshipping the gods, because frankly, atheism probably wasn't much of an issue until science and philosophy got a strong enough foothold to dislodge people from religion. Frankly, I don't think atheism rellay fits in D&D too well, especially if you have a setting where the gods activly meddle in the affairs of men and dwarves.
Keep in mind too that atheism denotes a lack of belief in anything, from dictionary.com: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
For a character to activly be an athiest, he'd need to not believe or refuse to believe in a higher power. Somebody that doesn't worship any established god (in a D&D sense) or who doesn't know what god they should be worshiping would be an agnostic, again from dictionary.com: a) One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b) One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I would say that some PC who refused to pick a god, or couldn't decide on one, would fall in this category, because he knows that the gods exist, or at elast he thinks they do.
While I don't think it makes a lot of sense, I'd allow a non-divine PC to be an athiest, that's alright. I would never allow a divine spellcaster to be an athiest though. Agnostic however, is okay, as it belies a character who believes that the gods exist, he's either not sure which to worship or which exist, but he still has faith in something and so is guided more by his personal philosophy (alignment) than a specific god.

Now, as to worshiping an abstract source of arcane magic, I'd say that it would have no more effect on a wizard, bard or sorcerer than worshipping Boccob from the core book. At the same time, I would treat clerics of such a faith as basically clerics of Boccob and give them access to the Magic, Knowledge and Trickery domains, or perhaps Chaos or however you want your magic to work.
However, I would from the outset be leary of giving such a faith clergy. It would seem to me that first and formost it would be a cult of the wizards and sorcerers, and that they themselves could act as a sort of lay clergy for thier faith, but I don't see them trying to get people to join them, outside of the normal amount of recruiting such people would do. Something I think some people lose sight of is that clerics aren't the only people involved in the church, they're just the most devout or in some other way chosen, at least this is how I want to treat it. There are normal everyday people that can lead prayers and give sermons and so on.
But back to the arcane faith, I think the very fact that this abstract source of arcane magic is granting power to wizards and sorcerers in the first place is good enough, and I don't think that they should be getting any divine magic from it, but that's how I would treat it.
Honestly, if I knew more about your setting and your established mythology I might be of more help, because these are the kinds of things that are really important to deciding on factors like this, namely how do arcane and divine magic coexist, and how is it that they coexist at all?
Wayward Son
04-07-05, 10:27 AM Actually, the clerics the OP mentioned, while getting Divine magic for their faith, sound like excellent candidates for becomming Mystic Theurges. :D Much like clerics of Boccob in Greyhawk, I imagine their faith would encourage them to delve into the mysteries of both the Arcane and the Divine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
11d7 04-06-05, 06:58 PM	How do you handle a situation when people worship the sorce of Arcane Magic? Not a god, just the concept surrounding the sorce. Are they granted Divine or Arcane magic? This bothers me becuase well say wizards would be casting spells at the same time as worshiping the sorce (more than likly) so would it not be giving them Arcane and Divine magic? Arcane with not components or spell failure? What?
Vharuck 04-06-05, 07:02 PM	If they are clerics, they are granted divine magic because of their faith in the credos of magic. Their magic does not come from the (I think) non-sentient source of Arcane magic, but instead their faith.
Kayoz_Majick 04-06-05, 07:06 PM	what you might consider doing is something similar to the Forgotten Realms books, i.e anything to do with Mystra. Mystra has both clerics and wizards. What is kind of unique, being the goddess of magic, is that there are some abilities granted (largely undetailed) the more devout and powerful a wizard gets worshiping Mystra. Try setting up an ability per level that simulates a spell (like magic missile 1/day/2 level at will) OR every few levels have a meta magic feat granted. Just a thought :cool:
astute1 04-06-05, 10:39 PM	In-game, you could choose to portray them either as wizards, or as clerics with the Magic domain - or both. I'd imagine that such priests would multi-class quite a bit.
Mirikon 04-06-05, 11:49 PM	I agree with the poster who said to look at how the Realms treats Mystra. That'd be a good place to start. Also, clerics of such a god would most likely multiclass, and then either take Mystic Theurge, or a special PrC for initiates of the religion.
Didge 04-07-05, 01:28 AM	Ahh...but the true question comes when the following occurs (actually was a player in this home-brewed campaign). What if you have Aithiest's who don't believe in any god that can cast clerical magic? Where's it come from?
11d7 04-07-05, 07:02 AM	I've always had Divine Magic come from belif or something. Not just gods. An athiest could draw divine power from their hatred for people worshipping gods.
Vharuck 04-07-05, 07:50 AM	Yup. Unless specifically stated (as in FR), a cleric is free to draw divine power from his or her own personal philosophy.
lifespeed 04-07-05, 08:34 AM	Yup. Unless specifically stated (as in FR), a cleric is free to draw divine power from his or her own personal philosophy. Which I've always found to be kind of... silly. I ran FR for a while and it was obvious that PCs had to pick gods, but my new game is a home-brew setting, and I haven't gotten to detailing exactly how people relate to the gods. But personally, I always try to talk up worshipping the gods, because frankly, atheism probably wasn't much of an issue until science and philosophy got a strong enough foothold to dislodge people from religion. Frankly, I don't think atheism rellay fits in D&D too well, especially if you have a setting where the gods activly meddle in the affairs of men and dwarves. Keep in mind too that atheism denotes a lack of belief in anything, from dictionary.com: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. For a character to activly be an athiest, he'd need to not believe or refuse to believe in a higher power. Somebody that doesn't worship any established god (in a D&D sense) or who doesn't know what god they should be worshiping would be an agnostic, again from dictionary.com: a) One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b) One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. I would say that some PC who refused to pick a god, or couldn't decide on one, would fall in this category, because he knows that the gods exist, or at elast he thinks they do. While I don't think it makes a lot of sense, I'd allow a non-divine PC to be an athiest, that's alright. I would never allow a divine spellcaster to be an athiest though. Agnostic however, is okay, as it belies a character who believes that the gods exist, he's either not sure which to worship or which exist, but he still has faith in something and so is guided more by his personal philosophy (alignment) than a specific god. Now, as to worshiping an abstract source of arcane magic, I'd say that it would have no more effect on a wizard, bard or sorcerer than worshipping Boccob from the core book. At the same time, I would treat clerics of such a faith as basically clerics of Boccob and give them access to the Magic, Knowledge and Trickery domains, or perhaps Chaos or however you want your magic to work. However, I would from the outset be leary of giving such a faith clergy. It would seem to me that first and formost it would be a cult of the wizards and sorcerers, and that they themselves could act as a sort of lay clergy for thier faith, but I don't see them trying to get people to join them, outside of the normal amount of recruiting such people would do. Something I think some people lose sight of is that clerics aren't the only people involved in the church, they're just the most devout or in some other way chosen, at least this is how I want to treat it. There are normal everyday people that can lead prayers and give sermons and so on. But back to the arcane faith, I think the very fact that this abstract source of arcane magic is granting power to wizards and sorcerers in the first place is good enough, and I don't think that they should be getting any divine magic from it, but that's how I would treat it. Honestly, if I knew more about your setting and your established mythology I might be of more help, because these are the kinds of things that are really important to deciding on factors like this, namely how do arcane and divine magic coexist, and how is it that they coexist at all?
Wayward Son 04-07-05, 10:27 AM	Actually, the clerics the OP mentioned, while getting Divine magic for their faith, sound like excellent candidates for becomming Mystic Theurges. :D Much like clerics of Boccob in Greyhawk, I imagine their faith would encourage them to delve into the mysteries of both the Arcane and the Divine.