archer sniper [Archive] - Wizards Community

archer sniper [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hensteeth
07-28-05, 03:25 PM How do you rule 'hide' for a rogue who hides, waits for the party to go by and attacks, then hides again? Does the party get a spot for the first hide? Any modifiers if the rogue is in a building several floors high? Rogue then acts, if noone sees him resulting in a surprise? Then rogue hides again?
Fixxxer
07-28-05, 03:36 PM The RAW say that if he hides and makes a ranged attack, he can try to remain hidden (via another Hide check) with a serious negative of -20.
hensteeth
07-28-05, 03:37 PM Thanks! That was exactly the info I was looking for.
Lord Ian Stark
07-28-05, 03:43 PM Does the party get a spot for the first hide?

In addition to Fixxxer's answer, Yes and no on this question. Does the enemy know he is in danger or just taking a stroll down the street? Assuming the Rogue has to peak at some point or may make a sound when doing so I very high Spot or Listen check can give away the rogue before he takes his first shot. However this is nigh impossible if the rogue is doing his job correctly.
Thoronmir
07-28-05, 04:15 PM In addition to Fixxxer's answer, Yes and no on this question. Does the enemy know he is in danger or just taking a stroll down the street? Assuming the Rogue has to peak at some point or may make a sound when doing so I very high Spot or Listen check can give away the rogue before he takes his first shot. However this is nigh impossible if the rogue is doing his job correctly.I beg to differ.Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.Hide is always opposed by Spot. I don't need to be wary in order to make a Spot check to notice the Rogue. Granted, distractions may warrant a Circumstance modifier to my check, but I get to make the Spot check even if I'm just "strolling down the street."Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.Note that you must first successfully hide before you get to snipe.
Dougbert
07-29-05, 07:29 AM In your example it wouldn't be too difficult for a sniping rogue to Hide again. The -20 applies to the rogue's Hide, but the PC's would also take penalties to their spot checks. -1 for every 10' between the PC and the rogue (don't forget vertical distance if the rogue is in a building, these add up fast) the -5 for distracted PC's may apply and there could be other situational modifiers.
SamiPeikko
07-29-05, 07:55 AM If the rogue wants to use Sneak Attack, the range is quite short: 30 feet at max, so the range modifier for spot is no more than -2.

If he had complete cocealment he could not be seen, but then he could not see the party walking past either.
If rogue fails with that -20 party spots him, but he can try to hide again after he has left the partys sight and has a hiding place. Party should have chance to act before he moves, _if_ they roll higher initiative, as surprise round gives only partial action.

This thing happening in itself should not give party any arbitrary negative modifiers. Crowd panicking at the street might be a distraction if you want, but it should also get the attention of the guards, who would be looking for the sniper...
Fedaykin
07-29-05, 08:34 AM I sniped my party once when they where crossing a wide river in the forest. The sniper was a ranger several hunderd feet away. So he could easily hide again and the range penalty was not that high.

Luckily for them the one hit by the arrow wasn't wearing heavy armor when he plunged into the river.

If you want to sneak attack your party in the city, you can better fire and run away, that fighter in fullplate is not gonna catch you.
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 10:34 AM I beg to differ.Hide is always opposed by Spot. I don't need to be wary in order to make a Spot check to notice the Rogue. Granted, distractions may warrant a Circumstance modifier to my check, but I get to make the Spot check even if I'm just "strolling down the street."Note that you must first successfully hide before you get to snipe.

Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW.
Dougbert
07-29-05, 11:22 AM I don't think you would really be 'hiding' behind a solid 20' brick wall anymore than a family inside a house is 'hiding' from passersby on the street outside. However, if the rogue in question wants to snipe he has to see the party. If he can see the party the party has a chance, however slim, of seeing him as well.
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 11:27 AM I don't think you would really be 'hiding' behind a solid 20' brick wall anymore than a family inside a house is 'hiding' from passersby on the street outside. However, if the rogue in question wants to snipe he has to see the party. If he can see the party the party has a chance, however slim, of seeing him as well.

Oh I agree. However after the target has passed by, the the attacker peeks over and takes a shot. But I guess this deals with the no facing rules in D&D.
Dougbert
07-29-05, 11:58 AM You see it all the time in the movies. The hero happens to glance at just the right instant to catch sight of the reflection from the assassin's scope (or in this case the arrowhead or some such). It stretches reality a bit, but I don't have a real problem with it. It still isn't easy to do but it does reward a player for having invested the skill points and rolling well.
Arrowhen
07-29-05, 12:20 PM Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW.

Nope. Here's that SRD quote again, with some helpful bolding indicating the part you missed: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you."

Unless I have x-ray vision or the wall has holes in it, there's no way I "might" see you behind a 20 ft brick wall, so no spot check for me. Of course, if you've got a weapon capable of sniping at me through a brick wall, spotting you is probably the least of my worries.
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 12:48 PM Nope. Here's that SRD quote again, with some helpful bolding indicating the part you missed: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you."

Unless I have x-ray vision or the wall has holes in it, there's no way I "might" see you behind a 20 ft brick wall, so no spot check for me. Of course, if you've got a weapon capable of sniping at me through a brick wall, spotting you is probably the least of my worries.

Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting:
pres_man
07-29-05, 12:48 PM Initially have the rogue make listen checks vs. party's move silently (if they are unaware then they are taking 10's), the party won't get a spot check if he has total concealment/coverage. When the rogue attacks use sniping rules in the hide skill (-20 on hide).
pres_man
07-29-05, 12:50 PM Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting:
Just go ethereal and get a ghost touch weapon, right?
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 01:02 PM Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.

Hmm. As far as etheral, I thought you can't effect creatures on the material plane? Ghost touch only means,

Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
Fixxxer
07-29-05, 03:38 PM Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW.

Not nessicerily. He could be getting a Spot check to determine that the brick wall is the most likely origin point for the arrow. Figuring that you're hiding behind it is just putting two and two together.
Thoronmir
07-29-05, 03:53 PM Oh I agree. However after the target has passed by, the the attacker peeks over and takes a shot. But I guess this deals with the no facing rules in D&D.You're absolutely right. The reason the target gets a Spot check once the Sniper breaks cover to fire is because "facing" does not exist in 3.X rules. Again, as I said before, if the target is distracted (e.g., engaged in deep conversation, busy counting his change from the Orc-on-a-Stick vendor, or simply engrossed by the way the hem of his tunic flutters in the breeze), the target might suffer a Circumstance modifier to his Spot check.
hensteeth
07-29-05, 04:10 PM Thank you to everyone who have shed so much light on this subject. I will be using a sniper this weekend. The pcs have terrible spot and have been walking all over my baddies.
Arrowhen
07-29-05, 04:35 PM Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting:
It probably wouldn't work with arrows or bolts because only the "significant portion" of the weapon is transformed into light. The "significant portions" of an arrow would be the arrowhead. Besides, if the whole arrow was transformed into light, you wouldn't be able to fire it. The bowstring would pass right through it, and in the case of a crossbow bolt, it would fall right through the crossbow and, unless it landed on living grass, through the ground as well.

Thrown rocks would work, and you might argue that the entirety of a shuriken is its "significant portion", but that's a lot of money to spend on a weapon that does so little damage.

Although the idea of a hill giant rogue sneak attacking through a brick wall with a brilliant energy boulder does have a certain appeal...
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 04:36 PM Thank you to everyone who have shed so much light on this subject. I will be using a sniper this weekend. The pcs have terrible spot and have been walking all over my baddies.

If the party is high enough level, let me know if your going to be shooting Brilliant energy arrows through a wall. This concept seems pretty cool. I'm going to roll up a rogue/assassin PrC character that shoots these arrows or bolts through numerous walls/structures so his target has no clue what the heck is happening. (At least until he dies after a shot or two depending on the damage.)

Yikes, this can be extremely dangerous, and very hard to identify who is doing it so he/she can be brought to justice. Ah the villian is becoming more and more real as we speak of this. ;)
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 04:40 PM It probably wouldn't work with arrows or bolts because only the "significant portion" of the weapon is transformed into light. The "significant portions" of an arrow would be the arrowhead. Besides, if the whole arrow was transformed into light, you wouldn't be able to fire it. The bowstring would pass right through it, and in the case of a crossbow bolt, it would fall right through the crossbow and, unless it landed on living grass, through the ground as well.

Thrown rocks would work, and you might argue that the entirety of a shuriken is its "significant portion", but that's a lot of money to spend on a weapon that does so little damage.

Although the idea of a hill giant rogue sneak attacking through a brick wall with a brilliant energy boulder does have a certain appeal...

Interesting. I missed the "significant portion" part. Hmm I guess the whole arrow could be made of brilliant energy if the weapon was made of living matter. Hmm...

Stone hurling is one way to do this. Scary. Back to the drawing board. ;)
Arrowhen
07-29-05, 04:45 PM Yeah, I was trying to think of ways around that, too.

Plant creatures forming bows out of their own bodies, maybe?
Lord Ian Stark
07-29-05, 04:56 PM Yeah, I was trying to think of ways around that, too.

Plant creatures forming bows out of their own bodies, maybe?

See we can work together, you don't have to hate me. :P

I was thinking skin grafts but yes, that would would be very possible also.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hensteeth 07-28-05, 03:25 PM	How do you rule 'hide' for a rogue who hides, waits for the party to go by and attacks, then hides again? Does the party get a spot for the first hide? Any modifiers if the rogue is in a building several floors high? Rogue then acts, if noone sees him resulting in a surprise? Then rogue hides again?
Fixxxer 07-28-05, 03:36 PM	The RAW say that if he hides and makes a ranged attack, he can try to remain hidden (via another Hide check) with a serious negative of -20.
hensteeth 07-28-05, 03:37 PM	Thanks! That was exactly the info I was looking for.
Lord Ian Stark 07-28-05, 03:43 PM	Does the party get a spot for the first hide? In addition to Fixxxer's answer, Yes and no on this question. Does the enemy know he is in danger or just taking a stroll down the street? Assuming the Rogue has to peak at some point or may make a sound when doing so I very high Spot or Listen check can give away the rogue before he takes his first shot. However this is nigh impossible if the rogue is doing his job correctly.
Thoronmir 07-28-05, 04:15 PM	In addition to Fixxxer's answer, Yes and no on this question. Does the enemy know he is in danger or just taking a stroll down the street? Assuming the Rogue has to peak at some point or may make a sound when doing so I very high Spot or Listen check can give away the rogue before he takes his first shot. However this is nigh impossible if the rogue is doing his job correctly.I beg to differ.Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.Hide is always opposed by Spot. I don't need to be wary in order to make a Spot check to notice the Rogue. Granted, distractions may warrant a Circumstance modifier to my check, but I get to make the Spot check even if I'm just "strolling down the street."Sniping If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.Note that you must first successfully hide before you get to snipe.
Dougbert 07-29-05, 07:29 AM	In your example it wouldn't be too difficult for a sniping rogue to Hide again. The -20 applies to the rogue's Hide, but the PC's would also take penalties to their spot checks. -1 for every 10' between the PC and the rogue (don't forget vertical distance if the rogue is in a building, these add up fast) the -5 for distracted PC's may apply and there could be other situational modifiers.
SamiPeikko 07-29-05, 07:55 AM	If the rogue wants to use Sneak Attack, the range is quite short: 30 feet at max, so the range modifier for spot is no more than -2. If he had complete cocealment he could not be seen, but then he could not see the party walking past either. If rogue fails with that -20 party spots him, but he can try to hide again after he has left the partys sight and has a hiding place. Party should have chance to act before he moves, _if_ they roll higher initiative, as surprise round gives only partial action. This thing happening in itself should not give party any arbitrary negative modifiers. Crowd panicking at the street might be a distraction if you want, but it should also get the attention of the guards, who would be looking for the sniper...
Fedaykin 07-29-05, 08:34 AM	I sniped my party once when they where crossing a wide river in the forest. The sniper was a ranger several hunderd feet away. So he could easily hide again and the range penalty was not that high. Luckily for them the one hit by the arrow wasn't wearing heavy armor when he plunged into the river. If you want to sneak attack your party in the city, you can better fire and run away, that fighter in fullplate is not gonna catch you.
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 10:34 AM	I beg to differ.Hide is always opposed by Spot. I don't need to be wary in order to make a Spot check to notice the Rogue. Granted, distractions may warrant a Circumstance modifier to my check, but I get to make the Spot check even if I'm just "strolling down the street."Note that you must first successfully hide before you get to snipe. Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW.
Dougbert 07-29-05, 11:22 AM	I don't think you would really be 'hiding' behind a solid 20' brick wall anymore than a family inside a house is 'hiding' from passersby on the street outside. However, if the rogue in question wants to snipe he has to see the party. If he can see the party the party has a chance, however slim, of seeing him as well.
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 11:27 AM	I don't think you would really be 'hiding' behind a solid 20' brick wall anymore than a family inside a house is 'hiding' from passersby on the street outside. However, if the rogue in question wants to snipe he has to see the party. If he can see the party the party has a chance, however slim, of seeing him as well. Oh I agree. However after the target has passed by, the the attacker peeks over and takes a shot. But I guess this deals with the no facing rules in D&D.
Dougbert 07-29-05, 11:58 AM	You see it all the time in the movies. The hero happens to glance at just the right instant to catch sight of the reflection from the assassin's scope (or in this case the arrowhead or some such). It stretches reality a bit, but I don't have a real problem with it. It still isn't easy to do but it does reward a player for having invested the skill points and rolling well.
Arrowhen 07-29-05, 12:20 PM	Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW. Nope. Here's that SRD quote again, with some helpful bolding indicating the part you missed: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you." Unless I have x-ray vision or the wall has holes in it, there's no way I "might" see you behind a 20 ft brick wall, so no spot check for me. Of course, if you've got a weapon capable of sniping at me through a brick wall, spotting you is probably the least of my worries.
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 12:48 PM	Nope. Here's that SRD quote again, with some helpful bolding indicating the part you missed: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you." Unless I have x-ray vision or the wall has holes in it, there's no way I "might" see you behind a 20 ft brick wall, so no spot check for me. Of course, if you've got a weapon capable of sniping at me through a brick wall, spotting you is probably the least of my worries. Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting:
pres_man 07-29-05, 12:48 PM	Initially have the rogue make listen checks vs. party's move silently (if they are unaware then they are taking 10's), the party won't get a spot check if he has total concealment/coverage. When the rogue attacks use sniping rules in the hide skill (-20 on hide).
pres_man 07-29-05, 12:50 PM	Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting: Just go ethereal and get a ghost touch weapon, right?
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 01:02 PM	Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item’s weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. Hmm. As far as etheral, I thought you can't effect creatures on the material plane? Ghost touch only means, Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
Fixxxer 07-29-05, 03:38 PM	Interesting. So If I am hiding behind a 20 ft brick wall, the enemy still gets a spot check to see me through it? I guess so according to the RAW. Not nessicerily. He could be getting a Spot check to determine that the brick wall is the most likely origin point for the arrow. Figuring that you're hiding behind it is just putting two and two together.
Thoronmir 07-29-05, 03:53 PM	Oh I agree. However after the target has passed by, the the attacker peeks over and takes a shot. But I guess this deals with the no facing rules in D&D.You're absolutely right. The reason the target gets a Spot check once the Sniper breaks cover to fire is because "facing" does not exist in 3.X rules. Again, as I said before, if the target is distracted (e.g., engaged in deep conversation, busy counting his change from the Orc-on-a-Stick vendor, or simply engrossed by the way the hem of his tunic flutters in the breeze), the target might suffer a Circumstance modifier to his Spot check.
hensteeth 07-29-05, 04:10 PM	Thank you to everyone who have shed so much light on this subject. I will be using a sniper this weekend. The pcs have terrible spot and have been walking all over my baddies.
Arrowhen 07-29-05, 04:35 PM	Ooh, that's very interesting and brings to mind a very nasty combo. I don't have my PH with me as I am at work, but doesn't a brilliant energy weapon can go through any material except living matter? Is that only for melee weapons? Add that to X-Ray goggles or goggles that allow you to see etheral... :plotting: It probably wouldn't work with arrows or bolts because only the "significant portion" of the weapon is transformed into light. The "significant portions" of an arrow would be the arrowhead. Besides, if the whole arrow was transformed into light, you wouldn't be able to fire it. The bowstring would pass right through it, and in the case of a crossbow bolt, it would fall right through the crossbow and, unless it landed on living grass, through the ground as well. Thrown rocks would work, and you might argue that the entirety of a shuriken is its "significant portion", but that's a lot of money to spend on a weapon that does so little damage. Although the idea of a hill giant rogue sneak attacking through a brick wall with a brilliant energy boulder does have a certain appeal...
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 04:36 PM	Thank you to everyone who have shed so much light on this subject. I will be using a sniper this weekend. The pcs have terrible spot and have been walking all over my baddies. If the party is high enough level, let me know if your going to be shooting Brilliant energy arrows through a wall. This concept seems pretty cool. I'm going to roll up a rogue/assassin PrC character that shoots these arrows or bolts through numerous walls/structures so his target has no clue what the heck is happening. (At least until he dies after a shot or two depending on the damage.) Yikes, this can be extremely dangerous, and very hard to identify who is doing it so he/she can be brought to justice. Ah the villian is becoming more and more real as we speak of this. ;)
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 04:40 PM	It probably wouldn't work with arrows or bolts because only the "significant portion" of the weapon is transformed into light. The "significant portions" of an arrow would be the arrowhead. Besides, if the whole arrow was transformed into light, you wouldn't be able to fire it. The bowstring would pass right through it, and in the case of a crossbow bolt, it would fall right through the crossbow and, unless it landed on living grass, through the ground as well. Thrown rocks would work, and you might argue that the entirety of a shuriken is its "significant portion", but that's a lot of money to spend on a weapon that does so little damage. Although the idea of a hill giant rogue sneak attacking through a brick wall with a brilliant energy boulder does have a certain appeal... Interesting. I missed the "significant portion" part. Hmm I guess the whole arrow could be made of brilliant energy if the weapon was made of living matter. Hmm... Stone hurling is one way to do this. Scary. Back to the drawing board. ;)
Arrowhen 07-29-05, 04:45 PM	Yeah, I was trying to think of ways around that, too. Plant creatures forming bows out of their own bodies, maybe?
Lord Ian Stark 07-29-05, 04:56 PM	Yeah, I was trying to think of ways around that, too. Plant creatures forming bows out of their own bodies, maybe? See we can work together, you don't have to hate me. :P I was thinking skin grafts but yes, that would would be very possible also.