Archivist Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archivist Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gold Medal Jedi
02-05-07, 01:49 PM Ok so the archivist casts divine spells like a wizard, i get this part. But what im having a problem with is that the prime ability for determing spell casting ability is intelligence, but later on in the write up it states that they use wisdom to determine bonus spells. Is this right or is there some errata for this? I mean no other caster has to use two different ability scores for their spells. Also this is a divine caster, as far as i can tell all divine casters use wisdom. Im thinking there is something not right in the description and if it is right, it seems like the powers that be are trying to nerf something that doesnt need to be nerfed. All thoughts are welcome and any help will be appreciated.
Montuban
02-05-07, 02:33 PM Actually Favored Soul also has split ability score spellcasting. Although, as I recall, (no book in had) the FS uses abilities to govern casting in a way that doesn't directly mirror the archivist. Anyway, I don't know about nerfing, but I have struggled with the rationale behind these breaks in the traditional model. I unfortunately have not closely witnessed either of these classes in action.
Gold Medal Jedi
02-05-07, 03:33 PM Actually Favored Soul also has split ability score spellcasting. Although, as I recall, (no book in had) the FS uses abilities to govern casting in a way that doesn't directly mirror the archivist. Anyway, I don't know about nerfing, but I have struggled with the rationale behind these breaks in the traditional model. I unfortunately have not closely witnessed either of these classes in action.

Yeah but isnt Favored soul one of those you have to have divine and arcane casting PrC's? If so then it makes sense to have two scores used. Archivist is a singular class and a base one at that, that looks like it requires two ability scores for determining spell capacity.
Arkonth
02-05-07, 03:38 PM Yeah but isnt Favored soul one of those you have to have divine and arcane casting PrC's? If so then it makes sense to have two scores used. Archivist is a singular class and a base one at that, that looks like it requires two ability scores for determining spell capacity.

Actually the Favored Soul is a base class from the Complete Divine. Essentially a divine sorcerer with wisdom/charisma based casting.

Frankly I really hate split casting and ignore it in my games. No problems yet.
Witch
02-05-07, 03:41 PM The archivist as written has no significant errors. You are mistaken. The int/wis division was completely intended (and has a precedent in the Favored Soul and most likely some other classes too)
TheChilliGod
02-05-07, 03:43 PM *Cough* A Favored Soul's Save DC's work off of Wisdom, but both of his bonus spells and the ability score requirements work off of Charisma.

The Archivist, however, has differing ability scores for bonus spells and ability score req's; Intelligence for ability req's, but Wisdom for bonus spells. It's not exactly the same, here.

btw, Witch, do you have any proof of your claim?
Witch
02-05-07, 03:48 PM No, I have no proof for my claim, except that there are no errata.
Just like I don't have proof that the wizard wasn't intended to base his casting off strength. You know - it's not actually written there, nor was it changed to it through errata. Nor is it blatantly obviously wrong.
TheChilliGod
02-05-07, 03:58 PM Ah, the "No proof to the contrary" argument. Very good, sir.

I'd argue nonsensically about your viewpoint, that WotC haven't bothered to errata anything since the MM3, and that such a strange spellcasting system that partly relies on something that doesn't exactly fit the class's flavor can only be a typo, but then we'd just be arguing nonsensically.
Findail
02-05-07, 04:12 PM The Spirit Shaman also has two casting stats: IIRC, Charisma as the prime stat and Wisdom for save DC's (the opposite of the Favored Soul).

The convention seems to be that the "prime" stat determines bonus spells and the ability to cast higher-level spells, and the "secondary" stat merely sets save DC's. If the Archivist is different (dunno, don't have the book)... that's weird.
Arkonth
02-05-07, 04:19 PM Official rules aside, does anyone see a strict need for the casting to be split this way? It just seems to be more bookkeeping and doesn't strike me as really all that necessary.
Witch
02-05-07, 04:22 PM I see no strict need for it other than balancing casters.
Gold Medal Jedi
02-05-07, 05:03 PM Well with what im seeing here, i think i might house errata it into wisdom for both for the sake of ease of book keeping. Just seems really unneccessary to split the ability req's for casters. They already have enough book work to do. Thanks to all.

Any differing view points? Anyone think it would be a bad idea to change it?
Witch
02-05-07, 05:46 PM I really think it's better to balance casters.

If you're going to change it, I recommend changing it to intelligence. The archivist isn't your specifically "devout" sort of fellow. He casts divine spells by study primarily, and by faith only secondarily.
Crimson_Concerto
02-05-07, 07:05 PM There is no error, and while there are a few questionable aspects to the Archivist*, split casting stats isn't one of them.
INT is used for Archivists, because they do no prey for their spells like a Clerics or cast their spells through willpower like a Favored Soul. They learn their spells, just a like a Wizard. It just so happens that they learn divine spells instead of arcane spells.
They use WIS for bonus spells as a balancing factor, and the reason is basically the same as the reason Clerics and Favored Souls use it. It's a balancing factor, and it's not completely inappropriate.

*By RAW, They can learn Domain Spells. The Archivist's designer has already officially stated that they were never intended to do so.
Also, Dark Knowledge is just dripping with "No, we're going to change the way that works..." For example, you can use it on a creature you haven't identified, and it's a set DC no matter if the creature is a commonplace monster or one-of-a-kind. I personally change the base DC to the same DC as that to identify the creature and disallow use of it if the creature has not been identified. Don't even get me started on Dread Secret...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gold Medal Jedi 02-05-07, 01:49 PM	Ok so the archivist casts divine spells like a wizard, i get this part. But what im having a problem with is that the prime ability for determing spell casting ability is intelligence, but later on in the write up it states that they use wisdom to determine bonus spells. Is this right or is there some errata for this? I mean no other caster has to use two different ability scores for their spells. Also this is a divine caster, as far as i can tell all divine casters use wisdom. Im thinking there is something not right in the description and if it is right, it seems like the powers that be are trying to nerf something that doesnt need to be nerfed. All thoughts are welcome and any help will be appreciated.
Montuban 02-05-07, 02:33 PM	Actually Favored Soul also has split ability score spellcasting. Although, as I recall, (no book in had) the FS uses abilities to govern casting in a way that doesn't directly mirror the archivist. Anyway, I don't know about nerfing, but I have struggled with the rationale behind these breaks in the traditional model. I unfortunately have not closely witnessed either of these classes in action.
Gold Medal Jedi 02-05-07, 03:33 PM	Actually Favored Soul also has split ability score spellcasting. Although, as I recall, (no book in had) the FS uses abilities to govern casting in a way that doesn't directly mirror the archivist. Anyway, I don't know about nerfing, but I have struggled with the rationale behind these breaks in the traditional model. I unfortunately have not closely witnessed either of these classes in action. Yeah but isnt Favored soul one of those you have to have divine and arcane casting PrC's? If so then it makes sense to have two scores used. Archivist is a singular class and a base one at that, that looks like it requires two ability scores for determining spell capacity.
Arkonth 02-05-07, 03:38 PM	Yeah but isnt Favored soul one of those you have to have divine and arcane casting PrC's? If so then it makes sense to have two scores used. Archivist is a singular class and a base one at that, that looks like it requires two ability scores for determining spell capacity. Actually the Favored Soul is a base class from the Complete Divine. Essentially a divine sorcerer with wisdom/charisma based casting. Frankly I really hate split casting and ignore it in my games. No problems yet.
Witch 02-05-07, 03:41 PM	The archivist as written has no significant errors. You are mistaken. The int/wis division was completely intended (and has a precedent in the Favored Soul and most likely some other classes too)
TheChilliGod 02-05-07, 03:43 PM	Cough A Favored Soul's Save DC's work off of Wisdom, but both of his bonus spells and the ability score requirements work off of Charisma. The Archivist, however, has differing ability scores for bonus spells and ability score req's; Intelligence for ability req's, but Wisdom for bonus spells. It's not exactly the same, here. btw, Witch, do you have any proof of your claim?
Witch 02-05-07, 03:48 PM	No, I have no proof for my claim, except that there are no errata. Just like I don't have proof that the wizard wasn't intended to base his casting off strength. You know - it's not actually written there, nor was it changed to it through errata. Nor is it blatantly obviously wrong.
TheChilliGod 02-05-07, 03:58 PM	Ah, the "No proof to the contrary" argument. Very good, sir. I'd argue nonsensically about your viewpoint, that WotC haven't bothered to errata anything since the MM3, and that such a strange spellcasting system that partly relies on something that doesn't exactly fit the class's flavor can only be a typo, but then we'd just be arguing nonsensically.
Findail 02-05-07, 04:12 PM	The Spirit Shaman also has two casting stats: IIRC, Charisma as the prime stat and Wisdom for save DC's (the opposite of the Favored Soul). The convention seems to be that the "prime" stat determines bonus spells and the ability to cast higher-level spells, and the "secondary" stat merely sets save DC's. If the Archivist is different (dunno, don't have the book)... that's weird.
Arkonth 02-05-07, 04:19 PM	Official rules aside, does anyone see a strict need for the casting to be split this way? It just seems to be more bookkeeping and doesn't strike me as really all that necessary.
Witch 02-05-07, 04:22 PM	I see no strict need for it other than balancing casters.
Gold Medal Jedi 02-05-07, 05:03 PM	Well with what im seeing here, i think i might house errata it into wisdom for both for the sake of ease of book keeping. Just seems really unneccessary to split the ability req's for casters. They already have enough book work to do. Thanks to all. Any differing view points? Anyone think it would be a bad idea to change it?
Witch 02-05-07, 05:46 PM	I really think it's better to balance casters. If you're going to change it, I recommend changing it to intelligence. The archivist isn't your specifically "devout" sort of fellow. He casts divine spells by study primarily, and by faith only secondarily.
Crimson_Concerto 02-05-07, 07:05 PM	There is no error, and while there are a few questionable aspects to the Archivist, split casting stats isn't one of them. INT is used for Archivists, because they do no prey for their spells like a Clerics or cast their spells through willpower like a Favored Soul. They learn their spells, just a like a Wizard. It just so happens that they learn divine spells instead of arcane spells. They use WIS for bonus spells as a balancing factor, and the reason is basically the same as the reason Clerics and Favored Souls use it. It's a balancing factor, and it's not completely inappropriate. By RAW, They can learn Domain Spells. The Archivist's designer has already officially stated that they were never intended to do so. Also, Dark Knowledge is just dripping with "No, we're going to change the way that works..." For example, you can use it on a creature you haven't identified, and it's a set DC no matter if the creature is a commonplace monster or one-of-a-kind. I personally change the base DC to the same DC as that to identify the creature and disallow use of it if the creature has not been identified. Don't even get me started on Dread Secret...