Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CalemJones 03-28-06, 12:35 PM	In most of my campaigns i have found that the only 0th level spell that gets used is the divine spell Cure Minor Wounds. Now I was wondering DMs of the world, in your campaigns are 0th level spells useless? Thanks for the time.
Lord Ian Stark 03-28-06, 12:43 PM	I take it your characters don't detect magic or use a light spell? Try a Warmage. My Acid splash does 1d3 + 5 damage. My disrupt undead does 1d6 + 5 to an undead creature. You tell me if it's worthless. ;)
Stev Beren 03-28-06, 12:44 PM	In most of my campaigns i have found that the only 0th level spell that gets used is the divine spell Cure Minor Wounds. Now I was wondering DMs of the world, in your campaigns are 0th level spells useless? Thanks for the time. . . you never use detect magic or read magic?
nyysjan 03-28-06, 12:44 PM	Read Magic Detect Magic Arcane Mark Prestidigitation absolute must to have for any wizard Create Water Detect Poison Purify Food & Drink Absolute must for a druid and a cleric Lullaby Ghost Sound Message Summon Instrument great to know if you'r a bard the 0 level spells are not powerfull (hence, they are 0 level), but definetly usefull in many situations (not so much in combat, but all the more so outside of it)
CalemJones 03-28-06, 12:49 PM	Ok i get the detect magic and light and others like that but mostley your saying that its for style is this right
Witch 03-28-06, 01:00 PM	They're just not for combat, mostly.
Stev Beren 03-28-06, 01:02 PM	I have made good use many times out of GHost sound when its effects were all I needed instead of wasting a higher level spell for the same effect. Acid splash works just fine for distracting a spellcaster. . Daze can get some good use for quite some time. . With Mage hand being able to lift a small five or less pound item is sometimes very useful when thats all you need to do instead of wasting a higher level spell. Message or prestidigitation. .I have used all of them even at relatively high levels.
blackjackg 03-28-06, 01:02 PM	There's no such thing as a useless spell. Just a spell with limited use. Ghost Sound and Mage Hand have fantastic potential, as long as they're used right. You're facing the villain in his laboratory? Use Mage Hand to pull dangerous-looking potions off the wall behind him and drop them on the floor. The guards outside just about found you? Distract them with a ghost sound and run the other way. If there is any spell you can't find a use for, you're just not being creative enough.
StormKnight 03-28-06, 01:03 PM	Mage Hand is a fantastic spell with a great many possible uses.
rockondon 03-28-06, 01:25 PM	somebody was tellin me that his fighter used to haul empty barrels and throw them in battle. The cleric would cast create water within the barrel as its thrown, giving the object tremendous weight. I'm not sure how or what the calculation for damage was, but they figured it to do more damage than his greatsword would have done.
KublaiKhan 03-28-06, 01:34 PM	Cantrips....useless? *snigger* *snicker* :D :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :heehee :rofl: :rofl: Tell that to my players. We have a grand old time discussing the various and sundry methods that cantrips can be used to kill things. I think the record was killing a troll or something like that with some creative cantrip use. Cantrips are *extremely* useful. Just like every other spell. It's all a matter of how you use it.
ogg205 03-28-06, 01:38 PM	In every campaign I've run, a wizard casts detect magic.
raven darqhart 03-28-06, 01:46 PM	Cleric/Druid Spells Create Water - I don't know about your games, but in my games dehydration is a huge factor, especially in areas that don't have a lot of fresh water I won't even bother with the Cure or Inflict spells, simply because they're obviously useful. Detect Poison - Are there no poisonous creatures or assassin's who use poison in your games? Guidance - Extremely helpful in case a low level mage runs out of spells and must resort to melee combat Light - Does it never get dark in your world? Purify Food and Drink - If you're in a horror setting like Ravenloft, this spell is a must. It's also a great spell to have in a high intrigue game, where there's a good chance of your food supply being poisoned. Resistance - At low levels even a +1 to saving throws can save your character's life. Virtue - The same thing applies. At low levels that extra HP can make the difference. Wizard/Sorcerer Spells Resistance - See above Acid Splash - Great desperation spell if you need a chance to run Detect Poison - See above Flare/Daze - A great spell for earning some extra time or free attacks Dancing Lights/Light - See Light as Cleric spell Ray of Frost - Not very effective against enemies, but the damage it does to metal and wood objects can be very useful. Ghost Sound - A great distraction if you're being sneaky. Disrupt Undead - ANY spell that damages undead is useful. Mage Hand - A very versatile spell. One of my favorite uses for it is to use it to throw daggers while using my hands for something else. Message - An excellent spell to have in case your party gets spread out. As you can see, most 0 level spells are useful if you are creative enough and your DM makes sure the environment effects your characters.
R2 03-28-06, 02:01 PM	Four-legged critters with decent INT, familiars, and shapeshifters find Hands of the Mage to be quite useful, giving them something resembling an opposable thumb where they would otherwise have none. Mage Hand is better than no hands at all.
ressurrector 03-28-06, 02:03 PM	In addition, from the Spell Compendium: Amanuensis Being able to instantly copy down any non-magical text can be very usefull. Mainly it's a time saver though.
TheSkinnySkeleton 03-28-06, 02:03 PM	I personally think that Resistance is one of the best spells out there for low level chars. Especially if your party's wizard casts Resistance on the rogue before sending him out on a scouting mission. Yes, you have to plan ahead, but really, there are so many times when planning ahead is possible. Just ahve to remember to do it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-28-06, 02:21 PM	Prestidigitation is one of the most potent non-combat spells in the game. With it, you can use clean to remove contact poisons, soil to cover tracks, color for easy disguise, minor tricks to earn money and flawed creation to generate perfect drawings (like your map of the dungeon. Plus, it lasts an hour, which is more than any other non-combat spell (eagle's splendor, fly, etc) below 4th level.
Vharuck 03-28-06, 02:25 PM	Basically the value of cantrips is this: Combat isn't everything.
LCD2YOU 03-28-06, 02:30 PM	HECK NO! Us: 1 Human Monk 1 Human Mage 1 Dwarven Barbarian 1 Halfling Rogue All second level. Stoopid and hunting Ogres. Why? We're bad MFs Them: 4 Ogres We see them at range. We wait to meet their charge. I knew we were going to be outside so my spells are Sleep * 3 for all my 1st level spells. For 0 level spells Daze * 3 and Detect Magic My mage casts Sleep at one Ogre, DC 19 (This is version 3.0, I had Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment for +4 to DC, Int of 18 +4 to DC and +1 for 1st level spell). One falls. They charge in not quite making it to us. My mage casts another Sleep, another drops. Now the Dwarf rages and attacks one. The Monk takes on another, the Rogue manuevers to backstab the one the Monk is on. The battle is not going well in melee. The Monk gets dropped like a bad habit. The Dwarf and the Ogre he's on can't hit each other. I cast my last Sleep on the one the Halfling is on and HE MAKES HIS SAVE! The Ogre the Monk and Halfling were on drops the Halfling but the Ogre is hurt by what the Monk did and a successful backstab and regular hit by the Halfling. DM makes a mistake and runs the Ogre too close to the Dwarf when trying to charge my mage. Dwarf AoO the Ogre and he drops. Unfortunately, the Dwarf is getting fubared down to 7 HP with rage on, by the Ogre who has yet to be hit. Cast DAZE on Ogre, DC 18, he fails. Dwarf takes a free swing, hits. Next round cast DAZE on Ogre, DC 18, he fails. Dwarf, swings and hits! Ogre down to 2 HP. Next round cats last Daze, Ogre fails. Dwarf swings, misses! Next round, my mage charges Ogre, he goes first then Ogre then Dwarf, with staff A HIT! Does 1d6-1 (Str 8) rolls a 4 for 3 points, Ogre drops. Dwarf mad, finishes Ogre. The DM was expecting a TPK, but a 0 level spell, DAZE, saved our collective lives.
raven darqhart 03-28-06, 02:41 PM	I won't even bother with the Cure or Inflict spells, simply because they're obviously useful. Detect Poison - Are there no poisonous creatures or assassin's who use poison in your games? Guidance - Extremely helpful in case a low level mage runs out of spells and must resort to melee combat Resistance - At low levels even a +1 to saving throws can save your character's life. Virtue - The same thing applies. At low levels that extra HP can make the difference. Acid Splash - Great desperation spell if you need a chance to run Flare/Daze - A great spell for earning some extra time or free attacks Dancing Lights - See Light Ray of Frost - Not very effective against enemies, but the damage it does to metal(swords) and wood(staffs) objects can be very useful. Disrupt Undead - ANY spell that damages undead is useful. Mage Hand - A very versatile spell. One of my favorite uses for it is to use it to throw daggers while using my hands for something else. Seems combat oriented to me...as long as you're smart and creative.
KublaiKhan 03-28-06, 02:47 PM	Almost forgot a fun tactic I used once....low-level Lumi vs. Cleric. Lumi can cast "light" as an SLA, IIRC. The cleric was kicking the Lumi's rear up, down, and sideways until the Lumi cast "Light", dodged the AoO, and made the touch to the cleric's eyes, using the famed Cur-lee Maneuver. Blind cleric. Lumi stomped 'im.
Marvos 03-28-06, 02:59 PM	In my campaign create water has served the PCs very well. Keep in mind that in DnD no one has invented fire extinguishers yet.
sherretz 03-28-06, 04:10 PM	Almost forgot a fun tactic I used once....low-level Lumi vs. Cleric. Lumi can cast "light" as an SLA, IIRC. The cleric was kicking the Lumi's rear up, down, and sideways until the Lumi cast "Light", dodged the AoO, and made the touch to the cleric's eyes, using the famed Cur-lee Maneuver. Blind cleric. Lumi stomped 'im. ^ Can you recite this in English please? kthxbye OP, if you're worried about 0-level spells just being "fodder" try using them more than your normal spells. They'll force you to get creative, and you'll always have your higher level spells for when things really hit the fan.
Yak of Darkness 03-28-06, 04:14 PM	The sorceress with acid splash kept the hydra's severed heads from regenerating. That's a damn good enough combat use for me. :D
VirgilCaine 03-28-06, 04:20 PM	Almost forgot a fun tactic I used once....low-level Lumi vs. Cleric. Lumi can cast "light" as an SLA, IIRC. The cleric was kicking the Lumi's rear up, down, and sideways until the Lumi cast "Light", dodged the AoO, and made the touch to the cleric's eyes, using the famed Cur-lee Maneuver. Illegal. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm The target is: OBJECT touched.
Sulaco 03-28-06, 04:23 PM	No. A caster's 0-level spells can be some of the most useful in his repertoir if used well. In my games I allow 0-level spells to be cast without memorization which greatly enhances their versatility.
KublaiKhan 03-28-06, 04:49 PM	Illegal. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm The target is: OBJECT touched. Not a serious game. The procedure still would have worked, anyway--IIRC, the cleric had Eyes of the Eagle or something on. Hit the lenses, you're in with Flynn.
Lokathor 03-28-06, 04:52 PM	Illegal. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm The target is: OBJECT touched. I was going to say "Perhaps he's talking about a 2E game" until he mentioned the AoO...
CalemJones 03-29-06, 12:32 PM	No. A caster's 0-level spells can be some of the most useful in his repertoir if used well. In my games I allow 0-level spells to be cast without memorization which greatly enhances their versatility. I think im gonna use this rule thanks for the info.
VirgilCaine 03-29-06, 12:39 PM	I was going to say "Perhaps he's talking about a 2E game" until he mentioned the AoO... I would have too--except Lumis didn't exist in 2e and the AoO, etc.
neobolts 03-29-06, 12:56 PM	What's a Lumi?
KublaiKhan 03-29-06, 02:09 PM	It's in MM3. IIRC, they have heads that aren't connected to their bodies, and have a couple fun SLA's.
Lord Ian Stark 03-29-06, 02:48 PM	No. A caster's 0-level spells can be some of the most useful in his repertoir if used well. In my games I allow 0-level spells to be cast without memorization which greatly enhances their versatility. Not a bad house rule. I'll bring it up to the other guys in our group. Since we're talking about them, our group allows bonus spells for 0 level also. Basically whatever the amount of bonus spells your character gets for 1st level, he also gets the same amount of bonus spells for 0 level. Is there a reason 0 levels by RAW don't get bonus spells due to a high ability bonus?
ressurrector 03-29-06, 03:45 PM	Not a bad house rule. I'll bring it up to the other guys in our group. Since we're talking about them, our group allows bonus spells for 0 level also. Basically whatever the amount of bonus spells your character gets for 1st level, he also gets the same amount of bonus spells for 0 level. Is there a reason 0 levels by RAW don't get bonus spells due to a high ability bonus? I think mainly because it would screw with the bonus spell table. if you have a mod of +1, you get a bonus 1st lvl, and for every additional +4 on your modifier you gain an extra. If you had +0(10) give a bonus 0th lvl, then so would +4(18) and +8(26) cumulative. Mabye it's because only primary casters even get 0th lvl spells?
Caemin Pah 03-30-06, 10:25 PM	I personally found that getting the spell list from 1e Unearthed Arcana and converting those 'cantrips' expanded the 0-level list greatly increased the usage of 0-level. Nothing would disrupt a caster faster than the uncontrollable urge to sneeze. <forgive the extremely evil, yet unviolent DM chuckle>
BRJN 03-31-06, 09:49 PM	No, 0th-level spells are not useless. I DMed a group of 4th graders as a troop of Israelites fighting Goliath. I told them they were facing a guy with the best armor available; their characters had what you can scrounge or make at home. So his AC was huge and their to-hit stank. The Cleric and Psalmist (bard) both saw their Bless and asked if a +1 to-hit bonus was a good thing. My own character is a Bard. I am creating a Masterwork Bardic Epic. Written into the words and music are the 0th-level spell Ghost Sounds. As I get higher level, I will put higher-level spells into my epic. Several other DMs (at conventions) have been impressed enough with the idea that I get a bonus on my Perform checks when trying to earn money using this Epic. (Note that if I have already used up all my spells for the day, the sound effects won't work, alas.)