Are bonus spells really bonus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are bonus spells really bonus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DrakathTheRatling
09-01-03, 05:00 PM Do your players playing spellcasters assume they will be able to qualify for the bonus spells whenever they become available? Do your PCs always qualify for them?

If so, why make them "bonus" spells at all? Why not just increase all the spells known accordingly? It's kind of like the old bonus XP for high primary stats. Everyone seemed to qualify.
Luminous Crayon
09-01-03, 05:13 PM For the first couple of spell levels, the bonus spells are basically a given. For first-level bonus spells, all you need is a 12 or greater in your spellcasting stat to gain it. If I'm playing a spellcaster, one of my top two or three scores is going into that spellcasting stat, so I can pretty much count on at least a 12. The second level bonus spell is much the same: a 14 isn't that hard to come by in character generation, so why not put it in that spellcasting stat?

Third level, not so much. I wish I could roll at least one 16 for every character I create, but that seems only to happen when I make NPCs for games I run. Ah well...
Lord Crimson
09-01-03, 09:28 PM Exactly... What you're suggesting Drakath, is that every 12 stat adept and hedge sorcerer in the game have just as much spellcasting ability as a 16 stat character, which makes it therefore worthless to put your highest rating attribute in the appropriate ability. Instead you have sorcerers with a Cha of 13 or 14 and a Str of 16. Now he's just about as dangerous as a fighter at early levels AND he can throw spells.
Now, tell me, does that sound reasonable?
09-02-03, 12:54 AM
09-02-03, 05:34 AM
At level 20, our group's spellcasters usually wind up with a modded spellcasting stat of +- 30.
cowdragon
09-02-03, 07:54 AM I don't know if this is related,but...
...we houserule that sorcerers can "know" extra spells according to their charisma modifier, but only up to the max allowed per level. Meaning a level one sorcerer with an 18 Charisma knows 3 spells. But that same sorcerer at level 12, with an 18 or even higher charisma only knows 5. It can never be higher than 5(or 4 or 3 at some level spells). This helps a little. Especially at level ups when they would otherwise only know one spell of their highest level for an entire level. But at level 20, it doesn't overpower them at all. Just a thought.

The Cowdragon
Lankin the Mad Mage
09-02-03, 10:54 AM Ummmm......Bonus Spells from high ability stats are bonus spells PER DAY, not bonus spells known. And you can only use them if you can usually cast spells of that level.

What do you mean "Qualify" for the spells? It is simply a mechanic that allows you to cast spells more times each day. Why should that complicate things so much?
Twisted Puppy
09-02-03, 11:00 AM Originally posted by Lord Crimson
Exactly... What you're suggesting Drakath, is that every 12 stat adept and hedge sorcerer in the game have just as much spellcasting ability as a 16 stat character, which makes it therefore worthless to put your highest rating attribute in the appropriate ability. Instead you have sorcerers with a Cha of 13 or 14 and a Str of 16. Now he's just about as dangerous as a fighter at early levels AND he can throw spells.
Now, tell me, does that sound reasonable?

While the above is true, don't forget that your spellcasting stat also has an effect on the DC of saves against your spells. Sure, the hedge-wizard with INT of 12 has the same bonus spell at 1st level as the wizard with INT 16, but the saves are different: DC 12 to DC 14 on 1st level spells. What Lord Crimson says is valid, but only if you're looking at a one-shot adventure, not a campaign.
tarkin
09-02-03, 11:43 AM Reason not to grant bonus spells to all.....

PC's that are not solely a spellcaster.

Yes, a Sorc will have a huge Charisma. But a Ranger might not get his Wisdom Maxed out.

And a Fighter/Wizard may only have a 14 intelligence and never plan on raising it.

There are a lot of other PC types that will have a low stat for their bonus spells.

It is only a very focused, spellcaster only type that will get those benefits.
Maofeng
09-02-03, 11:55 AM Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage
Ummmm......Bonus Spells from high ability stats are bonus spells PER DAY, not bonus spells known. And you can only use them if you can usually cast spells of that level.

What do you mean "Qualify" for the spells? It is simply a mechanic that allows you to cast spells more times each day. Why should that complicate things so much?

Just wanted to underline this. Why ARE we arguing about this?
DrakathTheRatling
09-02-03, 04:14 PM Ok, so perhaps I got the effects of bonus spells wrong (hazards of posting without the books). The actual effect of the bonus is irrelevant to my question. Really I just wanted to know if in your experience, your PCs managed to raise their stats as they leveled so that they always qualified for the nth level bonus spell when they learned nth level spells.

My PCs only have 14-15 in their spellcasting stats so they won't qualify for the 3rd level bonus.
Luminous Crayon
09-02-03, 06:52 PM Originally posted by DrakathTheRatling
...PCs managed to raise their stats as they leveled so that they always qualified for the nth level bonus spell when they learned nth level spells.

At this point I'd like to refer you back to my first post on this thread. To restate it again in direct response to this question, no they don't. Almost all casters will have 1st level bonus spells as soon as they can cast first level spells, but few will have 9th level bonus spells when they get that high, unless the characters in your game have insanely high ability scores. In other words, the lower-level bonus spells are a lot more easily-attainable than the high-level ones. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Optimus Prime.
09-02-03, 08:12 PM I would like to add that the name Bonus spells is somewhat misleading since you do not gain bonus spells but bonus spell slots. So why they gave it the name Bonus spells is beyond my comprehention but then again many things from wizards are.
DrakathTheRatling
09-02-03, 08:13 PM At this point I'd like to refer you back to my first post on this thread. To restate it again in direct response to this question, no they don't.

Yes. Thank you. I was just looking for more input.
Pumpoei
09-02-03, 08:25 PM I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post.

:turkey:
Lewin
09-02-03, 09:04 PM "Bonus spells per day" is shortened (confusingly) to "bonus spells".

Somewhere in the 20s you get an additional 1st level "bonus spell", so there continues to be a reason to raise <insert primary spellcasting stat here>.
Luminous Crayon
09-02-03, 09:08 PM Originally posted by Pumpoei
I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post.

:turkey:

I dunno, man; I understand it just fine...
cowdragon
09-03-03, 04:57 AM quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pumpoei
I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes the sky-trees; if forty two then "hi" back then. If we had eggs we might. But 7 is not 7, 'cause(fe-fi-fo-RUM!!!)? Veez beez treez? Yes you IS. So there.:eek:

:confused: The Cowdragon:bigeyes:

P.Q. I his crud-less floop.
Barrid
09-03-03, 02:59 PM Sure every spellcaster worth his dice is going to get a bonus spell at 1st and 2nd Spell Levels and maybe even 3rd. BUT, higher up than that and it gets scarce. You only need a 10+spell level Requisite Skill to be able to cas a spell of that level. For example, you need a 16 INT to cast 6 level Wizard spells. However, with a 16 INT, you only get 1st, 2nd and 3rd bonus spells. You need to raise your INT to 22-23 to get a bonus 6th level spell. So you see, while at first, bonus actually is automatic, it gets harder the higher the spell level because most people only get the Requisite Ability just high enough to cas those spells or slightly higher. To get bonus 9th level spells, you need an INT of 28-29. That's pretty high, even for Epic. Elminster's INT is 27.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrakathTheRatling 09-01-03, 05:00 PM	Do your players playing spellcasters assume they will be able to qualify for the bonus spells whenever they become available? Do your PCs always qualify for them? If so, why make them "bonus" spells at all? Why not just increase all the spells known accordingly? It's kind of like the old bonus XP for high primary stats. Everyone seemed to qualify.
Luminous Crayon 09-01-03, 05:13 PM	For the first couple of spell levels, the bonus spells are basically a given. For first-level bonus spells, all you need is a 12 or greater in your spellcasting stat to gain it. If I'm playing a spellcaster, one of my top two or three scores is going into that spellcasting stat, so I can pretty much count on at least a 12. The second level bonus spell is much the same: a 14 isn't that hard to come by in character generation, so why not put it in that spellcasting stat? Third level, not so much. I wish I could roll at least one 16 for every character I create, but that seems only to happen when I make NPCs for games I run. Ah well...
Lord Crimson 09-01-03, 09:28 PM	Exactly... What you're suggesting Drakath, is that every 12 stat adept and hedge sorcerer in the game have just as much spellcasting ability as a 16 stat character, which makes it therefore worthless to put your highest rating attribute in the appropriate ability. Instead you have sorcerers with a Cha of 13 or 14 and a Str of 16. Now he's just about as dangerous as a fighter at early levels AND he can throw spells. Now, tell me, does that sound reasonable?
09-02-03, 12:54 AM 09-02-03, 05:34 AM	At level 20, our group's spellcasters usually wind up with a modded spellcasting stat of +- 30.
cowdragon 09-02-03, 07:54 AM	I don't know if this is related,but... ...we houserule that sorcerers can "know" extra spells according to their charisma modifier, but only up to the max allowed per level. Meaning a level one sorcerer with an 18 Charisma knows 3 spells. But that same sorcerer at level 12, with an 18 or even higher charisma only knows 5. It can never be higher than 5(or 4 or 3 at some level spells). This helps a little. Especially at level ups when they would otherwise only know one spell of their highest level for an entire level. But at level 20, it doesn't overpower them at all. Just a thought. The Cowdragon
Lankin the Mad Mage 09-02-03, 10:54 AM	Ummmm......Bonus Spells from high ability stats are bonus spells PER DAY, not bonus spells known. And you can only use them if you can usually cast spells of that level. What do you mean "Qualify" for the spells? It is simply a mechanic that allows you to cast spells more times each day. Why should that complicate things so much?
Twisted Puppy 09-02-03, 11:00 AM	Originally posted by Lord Crimson Exactly... What you're suggesting Drakath, is that every 12 stat adept and hedge sorcerer in the game have just as much spellcasting ability as a 16 stat character, which makes it therefore worthless to put your highest rating attribute in the appropriate ability. Instead you have sorcerers with a Cha of 13 or 14 and a Str of 16. Now he's just about as dangerous as a fighter at early levels AND he can throw spells. Now, tell me, does that sound reasonable? While the above is true, don't forget that your spellcasting stat also has an effect on the DC of saves against your spells. Sure, the hedge-wizard with INT of 12 has the same bonus spell at 1st level as the wizard with INT 16, but the saves are different: DC 12 to DC 14 on 1st level spells. What Lord Crimson says is valid, but only if you're looking at a one-shot adventure, not a campaign.
tarkin 09-02-03, 11:43 AM	Reason not to grant bonus spells to all..... PC's that are not solely a spellcaster. Yes, a Sorc will have a huge Charisma. But a Ranger might not get his Wisdom Maxed out. And a Fighter/Wizard may only have a 14 intelligence and never plan on raising it. There are a lot of other PC types that will have a low stat for their bonus spells. It is only a very focused, spellcaster only type that will get those benefits.
Maofeng 09-02-03, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Lankin the Mad Mage Ummmm......Bonus Spells from high ability stats are bonus spells PER DAY, not bonus spells known. And you can only use them if you can usually cast spells of that level. What do you mean "Qualify" for the spells? It is simply a mechanic that allows you to cast spells more times each day. Why should that complicate things so much? Just wanted to underline this. Why ARE we arguing about this?
DrakathTheRatling 09-02-03, 04:14 PM	Ok, so perhaps I got the effects of bonus spells wrong (hazards of posting without the books). The actual effect of the bonus is irrelevant to my question. Really I just wanted to know if in your experience, your PCs managed to raise their stats as they leveled so that they always qualified for the nth level bonus spell when they learned nth level spells. My PCs only have 14-15 in their spellcasting stats so they won't qualify for the 3rd level bonus.
Luminous Crayon 09-02-03, 06:52 PM	Originally posted by DrakathTheRatling ...PCs managed to raise their stats as they leveled so that they always qualified for the nth level bonus spell when they learned nth level spells. At this point I'd like to refer you back to my first post on this thread. To restate it again in direct response to this question, no they don't. Almost all casters will have 1st level bonus spells as soon as they can cast first level spells, but few will have 9th level bonus spells when they get that high, unless the characters in your game have insanely high ability scores. In other words, the lower-level bonus spells are a lot more easily-attainable than the high-level ones. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Optimus Prime. 09-02-03, 08:12 PM	I would like to add that the name Bonus spells is somewhat misleading since you do not gain bonus spells but bonus spell slots. So why they gave it the name Bonus spells is beyond my comprehention but then again many things from wizards are.
DrakathTheRatling 09-02-03, 08:13 PM	At this point I'd like to refer you back to my first post on this thread. To restate it again in direct response to this question, no they don't. Yes. Thank you. I was just looking for more input.
Pumpoei 09-02-03, 08:25 PM	I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post. :turkey:
Lewin 09-02-03, 09:04 PM	"Bonus spells per day" is shortened (confusingly) to "bonus spells". Somewhere in the 20s you get an additional 1st level "bonus spell", so there continues to be a reason to raise <insert primary spellcasting stat here>.
Luminous Crayon 09-02-03, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Pumpoei I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post. :turkey: I dunno, man; I understand it just fine...
cowdragon 09-03-03, 04:57 AM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Pumpoei I nominate this for the most confusing thread award. Let's see if we can get to four pages without a single coherent post. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes the sky-trees; if forty two then "hi" back then. If we had eggs we might. But 7 is not 7, 'cause(fe-fi-fo-RUM!!!)? Veez beez treez? Yes you IS. So there.:eek: :confused: The Cowdragon:bigeyes: P.Q. I his crud-less floop.
Barrid 09-03-03, 02:59 PM	Sure every spellcaster worth his dice is going to get a bonus spell at 1st and 2nd Spell Levels and maybe even 3rd. BUT, higher up than that and it gets scarce. You only need a 10+spell level Requisite Skill to be able to cas a spell of that level. For example, you need a 16 INT to cast 6 level Wizard spells. However, with a 16 INT, you only get 1st, 2nd and 3rd bonus spells. You need to raise your INT to 22-23 to get a bonus 6th level spell. So you see, while at first, bonus actually is automatic, it gets harder the higher the spell level because most people only get the Requisite Ability just high enough to cas those spells or slightly higher. To get bonus 9th level spells, you need an INT of 28-29. That's pretty high, even for Epic. Elminster's INT is 27.....