Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 02:03 AM	A poll: Should a DM carefully study the capabilities of her group and tweak encounters and puzzles accordingly, and generally steering the adventure in ways that can let all the contribute sometimes? Or should a DM stick with the pre-planned/pre-supplied encounters come high waters and mag 8 earthquakes, placing the onus on the adventurers to get pas a problem. Why? Would your answer be any different if it were a Solo campaign?
AndrewD2 03-14-07, 02:10 AM	I feel sessions should be slightly tailored, but it's easier if you're doing them as you go along, making stuff up between sessions. If you planned it all out months ahead, you might need to do a little tweaking.
Daydreamer 03-14-07, 02:11 AM	A good dm has to tweak, especially if the dm is a) newer b) not used to the types of pcs like first time seeing a psionicst etc. And c) everyone misjudges from tme to time. Sometimes however the pcs need to bale themselves, good dms excercise good judgement on these issues. Its not a situation one can provide a mechanical rule for.
Krusk 03-14-07, 02:23 AM	I would say the DM should tweak all but maybe 1 out of 5 encounters for the party. Usually it sucks when your trying to play encounters your characters have no way to deal with, but occasionally it can be fun to think outside the box and accomplish them. party of 3 fighters and cleric. they have healing and melee down. Dont always force them to walk down trap filled rooms, thats not the type of game they want to play. On the otherhand the occasional trap is fun, and can keep everyone on their toes.
ArchonJohn 03-14-07, 02:28 AM	I run games (and play in games) that have many powergamers in them. Thusly we've begun focusing A LOT on the roleplaying part of D&D. Regardless, with powergamers you *need* to tweak encounters to beat them, otherwise they'll simply win. TANGENT ALERT!!! I remember this one time I told them there was a troll under a town bridge. (They asked the populace) and the next day the mage asked me if we could skip the fight bcause he had 24 fire spells memorized at 5th level (or 6th, I don't remember) That's the kind of powergamers I deal with... I need to tweak. most people don't. Oh, I let them skip the fight and 'win'. It was quicker and had the same result. XD
KillerGM 03-14-07, 02:28 AM	I think it's a good balance between them. I have some "status quo" encounters - meaning, if you decide to go into the mountains where there are dragons, you will fight dragons, regardless of character level. I also have "tailored" encounters - these are the "quests" I send players on. Meaning, I have them face CR-appropriate encounters. That's what goes into planning a gaming session - picking CR-appropriate challenges for the group to go up against. I don't, however, make encounters based on abilities or skills that the group has, mostly. If it makes sense for the story/game that you fight undead, then you fight undead, even if your group doesn't have a Cleric. The only exception I make to this are traps. Since there is only one class that can deal with traps (using Core classes), I feel it would be me putting in auto-damaging encounters for a group without a Rogue. I mean, most traps have a Search DC of over 20, and only a Rogue (out of the Core) can Search for traps with a DC higher than 20. And only they can disarm it. So, out of 4 players and 11 Core classes, if no one picks a Rogue, I don't put in traps. Mostly. ;) Undead can be dealt with a number of ways. I mean, turning is awesome against them, but you can still hit them upside the head like any other baddie. Same goes with other monster types. So, a mix of both "status quo" and "tailored" encounters happens in my game. :)
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-14-07, 02:31 AM	Absolutely. A DM should always take the party's strengths and weaknesses into account when preparing an encounter. A party with two mages and two rogues will deal with an iron golem very differently than a party of four fighters will. Terrain can play a very big role in tactics if you use miniatures and a combat grid. It makes all the difference in the world, an encounter can be memorable or bland based on how the party interacts with it.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 02:33 AM	That's true. The party with the two mages will problably kill the golem faster :D
FriendoftheDork 03-14-07, 09:07 AM	I say both.... yes the DM should bear in mind if the PCs have a chance to survive an encounter, and sometimes the DM should tweak opponents so that some of them at least are challenging. Then again, a few should be "typical" encounters based off a party of their level, and if that means the party OWNS them, then so be it. They should get SOME payout for their chosen spells/abilities. Im my game I tweak most encounters, but I also leave some almost as is. My party is currently 9th level, so the module encounter of about 50 Gnolls (CR 1-3) was pretty much a cakewalk (they had to say what spells they used, and I imagined the results of Spike Stones combined with empowered fireballs and Tentacles, especially when the party (2 out of 3, the pally didn't bother to join in) were all invisible and flying.... Even a supposedly tough encounter (One CR 11 colossal spider, 2 huge spiders, 4 spider swarms (about EL 12) became a walkover once the NPCs and the party's paladin was evacuated from trouble (the wizard/rogue and cleric/druid had no trouble dishing out about 200 damage from spells in a few rounds). A tweaked encounter however included a wizard with greater invis, see invisibility and fly, which could very well have dropped a few PCs if the party rogue/wizard hadn't caused a critical hit with a empowered schorching ray (w/SA).
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:13 AM	A healthy mixture of the two to maintain verisimilitude.
Sereno 03-14-07, 09:20 AM	There's nothing wrong with tweaking encounters so that all of the players PCs have a chance to make use of their skills, but I think a DM should never go so far as tailoring encounters so that the PCs can always beat them. However, as a DM, I wouldn't design my encounters around the limitations of the party make up; such as making easier-to-find traps because they don't have a rogue or limiting magical opponents because they don't have a caster. I also don't believe in "scaling" the world to match the PCs. If a given town has 3rd level guards when the PCs are 1st level, the town will have 3rd level guards when the PCs are 10th level ... town guards don't gain XP anywhere near as fast as PCs.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 09:27 AM	I really don't. When I ran the game, I knew who was where. Now I gave out tons of descriptive info and let them decide, but the game was there and the PCs interacted with a world that already existed. The monster powerful the monster, generally the further away it was, but not always. Keep 'em guessing.
Sterling 03-14-07, 09:54 AM	There's nothing wrong with tweaking encounters so that all of the players PCs have a chance to make use of their skills, but I think a DM should never go so far as tailoring encounters so that the PCs can always beat them. That sums up how I try to do things. It's not much fun if you've got a set of great skills you never get to use because the DM never puts you in a position to use them. Still, it's also not much fun if every encounter is a cakewalk either. If the PCs are fighting a group of smart enemies who've been watching them, I think its also appropriate to tailor the encounters to be MORE difficult too. Not impossible, of course, just more challenging since the Bad Guys know what they can do and will take measures to deal with it.
primemover003 03-14-07, 10:57 AM	I run games (and play in games) that have many powergamers in them. Thusly we've begun focusing A LOT on the roleplaying part of D&D. Regardless, with powergamers you *need* to tweak encounters to beat them, otherwise they'll simply win. It's not you versus them... see my sig. TANGENT ALERT!!! I remember this one time I told them there was a troll under a town bridge. (They asked the populace) and the next day the mage asked me if we could skip the fight bcause he had 24 fire spells memorized at 5th level (or 6th, I don't remember) That's the kind of powergamers I deal with... I need to tweak. most people don't. Oh, I let them skip the fight and 'win'. It was quicker and had the same result. XD Ever hear of a Half Red-dragon troll??? Or how about one with a few potions of Energy resistance??? Or maybe a Troll who'll run right by the other party members to "Geek the Mage FIRST!!!" That's true. The party with the two mages will problably kill the golem faster :D Only if they happen to packing Conjuration (creation) spells like the Orbs. Otherwise a Golem is traditionally an Encounter where Fighters earn their pay.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-14-07, 11:53 AM	Should a DM carefully study the capabilities of her group and tweak encounters and puzzles accordingly, and generally steering the adventure in ways that can let all the contribute sometimes? Yes…and no. I am of the school of thought that the world exists beyond the PCs. If they, at 1st level, choose to go seek out the lair of an ancient red dragon then they will find an ancient red dragon and will likley be turned to ash in a single round. However, for pre-planned adventures and encounters the DM should scale them appropriately to the PCs' level and abilities. So perhaps a better way to say it is that the DM should scale encounters to the PCs but not scale the world to them.
FriendoftheDork 03-14-07, 11:59 AM	It's not you versus them... see my sig. Ever hear of a Half Red-dragon troll??? Or how about one with a few potions of Energy resistance??? Or maybe a Troll who'll run right by the other party members to "Geek the Mage FIRST!!!" Only if they happen to packing Conjuration (creation) spells like the Orbs. Otherwise a Golem is traditionally an Encounter where Fighters earn their pay. What's your point? First you scald him for tweaking encounters against the PCs, then you do the same for the encounter he didn't.... no need to assume the worst. He never said he needed to "win" the encounters, only to tweak encounters and focus on RP. "The PCs will simply win" probably means they win without a challenge.
Bob Loblaw 03-14-07, 12:25 PM	I always keep the abilities of the party in mind when I write my adventures or use modules. It is my job as DM to make sure everyone has fun. If I am running an adventure where every opponent is immune to critical hits, the rogue is going to feel rather crappy. If I put the party against creatures immune to magic, the casters are really going to be in a bind. If I put only gargatuan creatures up against a fighter who is built to grapple, he is going to feel like I've got something against him. I do put those creatures up against the party, just not all the time. Sometimes individuals in the party really need to shine. We have a monk/psion specialized in grappling. He is very good at his job. I like to put creatures in there that make his grappling a challenge. I don't like when he grapples his opponent and kills it in 2-3 rounds. However, he does enjoy that. I will put some opponents in there that he can have some fun with. Our dervish really likes his dance. I find it more enjoyable to put tons of opponents up against him to see what he will do. While he can take on a single opponent fairly well, he shines against 4+ opponents. The healer (the actual class, healer), usually doesn't have a whole lot to do. I will throw undead at the party just so he can do something. I know that he chose a class with really only 1 role, but everyone needs to enjoy their time at the table. The warforged artificer makes his own fun so I leave him alone. He doesn't need nor care if I make encounters for his enjoyment. I have seen him get upset when the DM doesn't really understand the Encounter Level rules and we end up fighting 4 CR 17 creatures wback to back with no recovery time followed up by a CR 20 while we were only level 15. We didn't survive. We couldn't run because of the scenario so there was only death as an option. Our duskblade really enjoys getting surrounded so I try to get that for him when I can. The more the merrier is his motto. The DM's job is to tailor encounters to the party's likes and dislikes. If the DM is not making the game fun for everyone, then he has failed as DM. He shouldn't coddle the players, but he should give them challenges appropriate for their characters and style of play. The DM who runs players through diplomatic encounters every week where no dice are rolled when the players want some action is not a good DM for that group.
olshanski_home 03-14-07, 12:29 PM	I don't tailor anything. I use a combination of homebrew and prepublished adventures, all of which are selected months in advance of the party encountering them. There are times when some opponents get away, or a villian becomes recurring (this all happens organically, not preplanned or railroaded by me). When that happens, I'll tailor an encounter based on who the opponents are and what resources they have available to themselves. I do not tailor an encounter based on PC equipment or skills. It behooves a party to play to thier own strengths. If they know about a haunted graveyard with walking dead, or a renegade band of hill giants... then a cleric-heavy party may choose to investigate the graveyard while a rogue-heavy party may choose to pursue the giants. The party is choosing their encounters that play to their strengths, rather than the DM doing anything one way or the other, except making sure there is a wide variety of adventures, options, and freedom to choose available to the players.
Bruunwald 03-14-07, 12:41 PM	A DM should do either as suits his campaign, his tastes and the tastes of his players. There is no right or wrong answer to this. Also note that doing so is often conditional. Obviously, a PC facing his long-lost evil twin in their final battle for supremacy over one-another, is going to have the encounter tailor-made to him. Likewise, is somebody who finds a sword that only a certain person (him) can wield. On the other hand, those same situations will not be tailored to the other PCs. And nobody expects that every trip to a famous ruin is going to end with a confrontation with their mortal enemy. In the real world, stuff just happens. But stuff also happens to us because there are people who know us, and either like us or don't. There are also moments when a particular skill we possess comes in handy. I happen to be good at getting into locked cars, for instance (no, not because I wanted to be, it just seems to be something I'm good at). Does that mean God or the Universe has conspired to make sure I never get to use this knack, because that would be catering to me or in some way gratuitous? Nope. I've had plenty of legitimate instances in which to practice it. Life puts no moratorium on presenting us with various challenges just because we possess certain skills. Why should the game be any different? And going one step further, what sort of a challenge, and what fun is a game, which does not present us with opportunities to test ourselves?
primemover003 03-14-07, 12:55 PM	What's your point? First you scald him for tweaking encounters against the PCs, then you do the same for the encounter he didn't.... no need to assume the worst. He never said he needed to "win" the encounters, only to tweak encounters and focus on RP. "The PCs will simply win" probably means they win without a challenge. He said you *need to tweak encounters to beat them... I merely responded that it's not DM vs. Powergamers. I know it's easy to fall into that mindset as I frequently think of ways to thwart the resident powergamer in my group. However the point is not to beat them, only to sufficiently challenge them. In any campaign though you can't tweak every encounter, some have to feel like they're completely random. But every so often the NPC's in a campaign should come gunning for the party with all the knowledge they can scrounge up. That means the encounter will be significantly challenging because most of their tactics are known and accounted for by the challenge. In my design philosophy this should happen about 3 times (as my PC's ususally get to about 15th level before starting over).
EscherEnigma 03-14-07, 01:34 PM	In my experience, it's more important to tailor encounters at lower levels. At higher levels I'm finding that you can throw most anything at them and they'll figure out something. As long as you don't make too overpowering that is, but that's a given.
kelvinaw273 03-14-07, 02:02 PM	Yes, I tweak encounters. In fact, I don't do random encounters (but don't tell my players that), every encounter has a purpose. It has a goal and it has a means to achieve it. And still players amaze me with their novel ways of dealing with problems.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 02:56 PM	So what you're saying is, have inappropriate encounters, but always give the player a chance to run away and choose another fight? As a corollary, always have an appropriate encounter available for the player to choose? It would get frustrating really quickly if the player has ro tun away from every encounter. Perhaps make sure that encounters have multiple ways of being dealt with, so different people can still go through the same encounter.
Sereno 03-14-07, 03:21 PM	So what you're saying is, have inappropriate encounters, but always give the player a chance to run away and choose another fight? As a corollary, always have an appropriate encounter available for the player to choose? Yes, *some* inappropriate encounters (some too high and some too low) ... and NEVER in a place where they cannot run away or where they cannot make progress towards their goals unless they beat the challenge. Each actual adventure, or plot, should be scaled to the party. You don't send a low-level party on a "kill the ancient dragon" adventure (hoping to save them by some deus-ex-DM), but you *could* have an encounter in the mountains with an ancient red dragon. As another example, you wouldn't send a low-level party on a "recover the lost item"-type adventure only for them to find that the treasure room is guarded by an Iron Golem -- a sure TPK for most low-level parties. It would get frustrating really quickly if the player has ro tun away from every encounter. Perhaps make sure that encounters have multiple ways of being dealt with, so different people can still go through the same encounter. Every encounter should have multiple methods over being overcome ... if not, you're railroading and playing the worst version of DnD: "Read the DM's mind." :) The PCs are supposed to be heroes ... running away all the time is NOT heroic.
green_yawgmoth 03-14-07, 03:27 PM	A healthy mixture of the two to maintain verisimilitude. Exactly. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
aotrscommander 03-14-07, 03:34 PM	Yes…and no. I am of the school of thought that the world exists beyond the PCs. If they, at 1st level, choose to go seek out the lair of an ancient red dragon then they will find an ancient red dragon and will likley be turned to ash in a single round. However, for pre-planned adventures and encounters the DM should scale them appropriately to the PCs' level and abilities. So perhaps a better way to say it is that the DM should scale encounters to the PCs but not scale the world to them. Once again, I find myself in agreement with He Of Many Names. Despite the fact _Jayne_Cobb_ has put it far more succiently than I could, I'll procede to ramble on anyway! I run my games as modules, either homebrew or otherwise. In general, I just create the opposition to whatever I think is appropriate. If it's a published module, I'll more or less leave it as is (bar any updating/converting as I am currently doing with many 2nd Ed modules). Homebrew, I tend to eyeball what I think the party can handle - and despite sometimes having reservations on whether they'll be able to handle it, they always seem to manage to surprise me. I gave up on CR and EL as balancing concepts shortly after starting to do my first 3.5 game. I don't even look at EL and use CR merely like the 2nd Ed XP entry, in that it is a guide to how much thy should get. So, within the scope of the module - the 'planned' bit if you like - the encounters generally 'scale' to the PCs. (Save for the odd one that they aren't supposed to 'win'.) Outside that, though, the world goes on. If the PCs suddenly feel like taking a trip into a dangerous location, well, I do spend all that time drawing up random encounter tables for a reason (though I've yet to do one that makes sufficient sense to me!) Those tables run the gamut of rabbits and insects, up through locals and occasinally up to highly dangerous creatures (though the really nasty stuff you won't encounter randomly!) Or if, in the highly unlikely event my players decided to do something crazy like run off and try to kill [insert NPC/Monster of distinction], then they had better be prepared to acept the consequences. I do like, on occasion, to remind the PCs that they are not the biggest fishes in the sea. (Especially since that with a couple of the players, that might lead them to silly behavior that they are better than!)
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 03:45 PM	Th eproblem is, how do you ensure that just by pulling random entries from your random encounter table, that you won't overwhelm your PC or use up all his resources? If there's only one PC, I don't think CR is an appropriate judge o fchallenge anymore, not to mention the roles not filled, making some encoutners impossible. In a Solo campaign, would you even custom tailor the random encounter table? For example, an Iron Golem may be a low difficulty random encoutner for a normal party, but for one single rogue, it could very well be the boss of the dungeon.
Sereno 03-14-07, 04:04 PM	Th eproblem is, how do you ensure that just by pulling random entries from your random encounter table, that you won't overwhelm your PC or use up all his resources? If there's only one PC, I don't think CR is an appropriate judge o fchallenge anymore, not to mention the roles not filled, making some encoutners impossible. In a Solo campaign, would you even custom tailor the random encounter table? Well, there are a lot of differences between solo campaigns and party campaigns and, you're right, determining what kind of encounter is too hard or too easy gets more difficult. Part of it is an experience thing. The more monsters you run, the more you get an understanding of how certain powers/skills/abilities affect the game. CR is a good guideline, but it's only that, a guideline. Some monsters are much tougher than their CR seems to indicate, some are much easier. I generally make the "random" encounters to be things that make sense for the area; the sort of creatures and NPCs that *should* inhabit a certain area while making the "adventure" more customized to the PCs level. And, I really don't just pull a "random" encounter randomly ... I try to fit these (what I think of as "unassociated" encounters -- meaning that they aren't designed to drive the plot) in when it makes sense or when the PCs need a little excitement. So long as you never pull one when the PCs backs are to the wall or use one as a roadblock, the PCs always have the option of bypassing the encounter or running away. Very few encounters are *so* overwhelming that the PCs won't realize they're outclassed before they start getting killed. Most things that could kill the PCs LOOK like they could kill the PCs. For example, an Iron Golem may be a low difficulty random encoutner for a normal party, but for one single rogue, it could very well be the boss of the dungeon. This is the problem with solo campaigning. It does require being more flexible as a DM. Don't forget, not every creature in an adventure needs to attack-to-kill and fight-to-the-death. Sometimes even a powerful creature can run away if it doesn't want to get hurt. The PCs need never know why a monster runs away ... maybe being hit one time was too painful, maybe it heard a call from its master, maybe it remembered it left the iron on. :)
aotrscommander 03-14-07, 04:15 PM	Th eproblem is, how do you ensure that just by pulling random entries from your random encounter table, that you won't overwhelm your PC or use up all his resources? If there's only one PC, I don't think CR is an appropriate judge o fchallenge anymore, not to mention the roles not filled, making some encoutners impossible. In a Solo campaign, would you even custom tailor the random encounter table? For example, an Iron Golem may be a low difficulty random encoutner for a normal party, but for one single rogue, it could very well be the boss of the dungeon. I don't pay any attention to WotC's four-per-day encounter rule, for a kick off. I have as many encounters as I feel is nessecary. In fact, many encounters that my players face use significant amounts of resources. They rest when they're knackered (either from fighting or the day's march) or if they think they're about to face something nasty. If it's on a random encounter table, then it's from a random encounter table. It's, you know, random. So the encounter is whatever it turns out to be. Seeing as these generally happen outside, the PCs can always run away if they can't defeat whatever it is. Or can ignore it if it's a rabbit1, swan or wasp's nest or something (which it has, in most areas, a substantially higher chance of being. I use random encounters less of a means to provide the PCs with a challenge and more of a way of populating the world credibly.) I would apply the same reasoning to a solo campaign (though I personally wouldn't run one). Either the PC will be high-level and therefore more likely to be able to deal with whatever he encounters or he's going to have to learn to run and hide. What I will save is that if the PC or PCs flee from an encounter, I won't pursue them to destruction and probably cut them a break. If they've crapped their pants and run, then objective acheived anyway: a credible threat has been presented. 1Yeah, okay, mainly they run away from rabbits on the slight chance it's actually a Killer Rabbit, since I have been known to stat those out of some game worlds. Vorpal bite is such a canine of the female persuasion...
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-14-07, 04:36 PM	Th eproblem is, how do you ensure that just by pulling random entries from your random encounter table, that you won't overwhelm your PC or use up all his resources? You don't. Unless the PCs - and players - are utterly brainless they should know to rest and heal when they are low on resources irrespective of how many encounters they have had in a given day. Personally, though, I don't use random encounters. I do in the sense that I will include things that are not part of the main storyline but I prepare them before the game, pre-panning it's inclusion in the session and calculating XP and treasure ahead of time. So it may be random for the PCs but it is not random for me as DM.
Sereno 03-14-07, 04:40 PM	Personally, though, I don't use random encounters. I do in the sense that I will include things from a random encoutner table but I do this before the game, adjusting the encoutner as necessary, pre-panning it's inclusion in the session and calculating XP and treasure beforehand. It may be random for the PCs but it is not random for me as DM. Yeah, me, too. All of my "random" encounters are completely detailed. I hate using actual random encounter tables nothing breaks verisimilitude like breaking out dice to figure out what's coming next....
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-14-07, 04:51 PM	Yeah, me, too. All of my "random" encounters are completely detailed. I hate using actual random encounter tables nothing breaks verisimilitude like breaking out dice to figure out what's coming next.... Or when the dice decide to be funny... "Just as you are breaking camp you hear a noise and are set upon by >clatter< …99, roll twice more… >clatter< >clatter< …double zero, roll on special table… >clatter< …13 kobolds, two celestial giant owls, and an ancient blue dragon. Everyone roll for initiative…" ;)
aotrscommander 03-14-07, 06:28 PM	Given some preperation time (which I almost always have) I too tend to plan my random encounters (even if I roll them on my tables, for example to find out what happens on a long journey side from any predetermined encouters). That way they at least don't have the... "Just as you are breaking camp you hear a noise and are set upon by >clatter< …99, roll twice more… >clatter< >clatter< …double zero, roll on special table… >clatter< …13 kobolds, two celestial giant owls, and an ancient blue dragon. Everyone roll for initiative…" ...problem, seeming more natural. I have them at all for two reasons. One, it's part of what tells me what the ecology of the area is (hence why a lot of random encounters are flavour not fighting!) and two, if the PCs decide to do something completely unexpected, I've at least got something to fall back on. (I'll be the first to admit, I am more-or-less the polar opposite of an off-the-cuff DM. I am trying to improve - the new campaign world doesn't have a metaplot for once - but it's hard to break 17 years of DMing habits!) I should probably mention that I swiped a large amount of ideas for my encounter tables from Rolemaster, which should give you some idea of how thorough they are!
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 06:56 PM	I would apply the same reasoning to a solo campaign (though I personally wouldn't run one). Either the PC will be high-level and therefore more likely to be able to deal with whatever he encounters or he's going to have to learn to run and hide. So for example if your one PC is a 1st level caster with no damage spells at all, then should you give that PC experience just for running away succesfully?
Archangel62 03-14-07, 07:06 PM	I think the DM needs to do a certain amount of tailoring, if only because the group does determine how the game goes. What this means is that if the party is almost all casters, low levels will be rough but high levels will be rather harsh. The DMs plot hooks that involve heavily trapped tombs will be ignored, as will the warlord coliseum battles. The problem though is that the DM shouldn't necessarily build each encounter to the party because part of the fun of a random encounter is a player sometimes facing a weakness or getting a chance to shine where they couldn't before.
aotrscommander 03-14-07, 07:21 PM	So for example if your one PC is a 1st level caster with no damage spells at all, then should you give that PC experience just for running away succesfully? No. But I don't expect every encounter to generate XP at the best of times, let alone the random ones. Sometimes you fight laughably easy chaff, sometimes you meet merchants on the road, sometimes you spot a bunny in a field and sometimes you run when you spot the Tyrannosaur and hope it doesn't feel hungry. This also applies - though not as often and to a lesser extent - to pre-planned encounters. (For example, I'm going to be running a group of hard 16th level characters through a converted Dragon Mountain. Even with the generic Kobolds buffed to level 8, the PCs won't get any experience from the bulk, only the leaders. But that's the wa it goes sometimes!) A low level caster (especially a low-level arcane caster) is seriously threatened by a baby Kobold which peashooter, let alone a housecat. Really, they should be very careful of wandering into places they could get easily killed and stick to the plot, at least until they've got a few more levels under their belt!
AntiDjinn 03-14-07, 07:59 PM	I believe in tailoring pre-written encounters to fit the campaign and the game world. A given challenge may have some element added that plays off a particular character's storyline; this ups the stakes for that character and gives him an added incentive to win the encounter. It also provides more story hooks. But I try to resist the temptation to script the entire encounter so that the caster has a specific role, the rogue has someone to backstab, the fighter has grunts to melee, etc., because then I am making decisions the party should be making. With encounters that are too scripted you run the risk if railroading. Instead, I prefer that the encounter make sense given the game world and the current situation and let the PC's figure out what actions each can take to best deal with it as a group. About the only time I feel an encounter should be tailored precisely to the party's weaknesses is when the BBEG is actually striking out at them specifically. If an on-going villain has been studying, scrying, and gathering information on the PCs and has choosen to take the fight to them, then the timing and the nature of the encounter will be designed to capitalize on their known weaknesses.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 09:05 PM	A low level caster (especially a low-level arcane caster) is seriously threatened by a baby Kobold which peashooter, let alone a housecat. Really, they should be very careful of wandering into places they could get easily killed and stick to the plot, at least until they've got a few more levels under their belt! Exactly, which is the whole reasoning behind tailoring your encounters (even the plot ones) so your bard or your beguiler adventuring alone won't die before even reaching level 2?
aotrscommander 03-14-07, 09:47 PM	Exactly, which is the whole reasoning behind tailoring your encounters (even the plot ones) so your bard or your beguiler adventuring alone won't die before even reaching level 2? The plot ones would be scaled. The random encounters wouldn't. If Cedric the Cleric or Wizzy the Wizard want to go wandering in the wilderness at level 1 on their own, they had better be prepared for it. There's a reason adventurers travel in groups, after all. If I was to run a solo campaign, I'd start the character off at probaly at least elvel 3, more like 4-6, since the chances of making it to level 2 (especially as an arcane caster) would be greatly reduced. (I'm not even sure how I'd challenge a single level one Wizard...a street thug might be a bit too much!) Or I'd make (like NWN 2) the first few levels solely noncombat roleplaying until i felt the character could survive on his own.
Loestalx 03-14-07, 09:53 PM	You should tailor encounters, but not spoon feed the players. Not tailoring encounters and having something end up fighting the party that is obviously beyond them and killing them and then just writing it off as "oh well, random encounter" is an easy way for DMs to not work and is a lazy excuse. ALL encountesr should be accounted for and the DM should be responsible enough to make sure what he rolls on his random encounter chart is right for the time, place and party.
taski 03-14-07, 10:24 PM	There is a huge and helpful thread all about running solo campaigns: KJW's Guide to Solo Campaigns (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=553739). I've been running a solo campaign myself, and I have to say, I would never put my one player's character (a rogue/sorcerer) up against a published adventure without heavy fixing. He prefers mystery, horror and intrigue, so that already makes 90% of all premade adventures useless, not to mention the fact that those things are designed for versatile 4-person parties. I design my own adventures and encounters, tailored for the PC's abilities and the player's taste. That said, I'll also generally put out a mysterious plot hook (or several) and let the player choose his own way. If he wants to delve into a dungeon to find the ancient inscription, fine, he can plan an expedition and hire lots of NPCs to back him up. He'll need them. But for urban intrigues, he normally won't need anyone's help. His high diplomacy, bluff, etc., will keep most potential enemies from swinging at him (not to mention their being aware of the local laws against assault). He gets rewarded for successfully overcoming an encounter in such a way that co-incides with his goals. If he's trying to sneak into a building to steal a mcguffin, and ends up killing a guard and fleeing, he failed at his goal and gets no mcguffin.
Loestalx 03-14-07, 10:26 PM	There is a huge and helpful thread all about running solo campaigns: KJW's Guide to Solo Campaigns (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=553739). I've been running a solo campaign myself, and I have to say, I would never put my one player's character (a rogue/sorcerer) up against a published adventure without heavy fixing. He prefers mystery, horror and intrigue, so that already makes 90% of all premade adventures useless, not to mention the fact that those things are designed for versatile 4-person parties. I design my own adventures and encounters, tailored for the PC's abilities and the player's taste. That said, I'll also generally put out a mysterious plot hook (or several) and let the player choose his own way. If he wants to delve into a dungeon to find the ancient inscription, fine, he can plan an expedition and hire lots of NPCs to back him up. He'll need them. Very good DMing my friend. Picture perfect as far as I'm concerned.
FrostHammer 03-14-07, 10:40 PM	The plot ones would be scaled. The random encounters wouldn't. If Cedric the Cleric or Wizzy the Wizard want to go wandering in the wilderness at level 1 on their own, they had better be prepared for it. There's a reason adventurers travel in groups, after all. If I was to run a solo campaign, I'd start the character off at probaly at least elvel 3, more like 4-6, since the chances of making it to level 2 (especially as an arcane caster) would be greatly reduced. (I'm not even sure how I'd challenge a single level one Wizard...a street thug might be a bit too much!) Or I'd make (like NWN 2) the first few levels solely noncombat roleplaying until i felt the character could survive on his own. Do you think non-combat roleplaying is the only way to go if starting at level 1? You'd have to give out TONS of roleplaying exp to get a charfacter even upto level 3. But I guess you're right. How would a level 1 Beguiler really kill things anyways?
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-15-07, 03:01 AM	Do you think non-combat roleplaying is the only way to go if starting at level 1? You'd have to give out TONS of roleplaying exp to get a charfacter even upto level 3. But I guess you're right. How would a level 1 Beguiler really kill things anyways? Actually, I just give players full experience if they circumvent an encounter in any way, shape, or form. They know it, and always look outside the box (and one of these days I'm going to reward them for it by pitting them against a creature whose challenge rating is 10 higher than the party level in a generic environment, just to see the method they use to kill it). Of course, it's hard to suppress murderous impulses, and the rogue always gets down to "should I wrap everything through diplomacy, or save time and start combat now?"
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 03:18 AM	Perhaps if the DM offered extra incentives to work things out non-violently? Like extr acontacts? A bit of extra gold, or even bonus exp...
DMDaddy 03-15-07, 03:36 AM	Most of the time I custom tailor my encounters to meet the PCs abilities. A scenario that involves the thief's skills, an encounter for fighters, a spellcasters moment to shine, etc... After all, its all about the PCs having fun. However, every 2 or 3 enounters involve no tailoring and they must find a way to overcome the obstacles. For the most part I find that PCs are very resourcefull. Other tailored events enspire the explorer, the planner, the storyliner, the power aquirer, the character development, the hero, etc... Players need these and they can only be custom made. Every player needs their moment to shine, and it is my job to include such scenarios where they can shine. That's what makes the game fun. DMGII is an excellent source for such tailoring.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 06:51 AM	Do you think non-combat roleplaying is the only way to go if starting at level 1? You'd have to give out TONS of roleplaying exp to get a charfacter even upto level 3. But I guess you're right. How would a level 1 Beguiler really kill things anyways? For a solo individual like a caster then yes. A Beguiler is fractionally better off as they have armour and some stealth capability. You could manage a couple of low level combat encounters, just about - but even then, it's nearly a one-hit kill. Assuming a 14 Con, you're only going to have 8 hits at level one. I tend to hand out XP as story awards anyway; actual rping XP is minimal, just the occasional bit here and there for really clever ideas and comments. (I generally only give out half XP for combat encounters, unless they smash the PCs up enough that I think they've earned the full amount.) Not unlike, though some nay find the comparison odious, the D&D CRPGs or, say Summoner. For a solo campaign, the main adventure would have to be scaled specifically to that character's capabilities, let alone for a single character. Especially since at level no class has many options. However, what I would not do is scale encounters outside of the main adventure. If said player wandered off into the wilderness, then they would be at the mercy of chance. But considering it's not usually all that hard to stick to my main plots, the character would not be placed in a position where they would be required to do that.
Sereno 03-15-07, 08:49 AM	So for example if your one PC is a 1st level caster with no damage spells at all, then should you give that PC experience just for running away succesfully? The most important thing to remember, something that a LOT of DMs and players seem to forget, is that you're not supposed to get XP for *killing* ... you get XP for overcoming challenges. Overcoming challenges *might* be killing ... but, by no means is it the ONLY way to overcome a challenge. To many players lament that they only get full XP if they kill the monsters, meaning that diplomacy, stealth, trickery or any other non-violent methods of overcoming the challenge are "less valuable" in terms of XP. This is usually a short-sightedness of the DM. When you make up an encounter, you need to think about what "winning" really means. If there are guards at the entrance of a special place, then the "win condition" is getting past the guards. Sneaking past, distracting them with magic, talking your way past them are all just as good and worth the full XP as is barging up and killing them. It's not necessary to give combat-light parties ONLY RP-challenges because just about *every* encounter can be an RP challenge. Only mindless creatures (or those under a compulsion) attack on sight and fight to the death when they don't have any other choice.
Sereno 03-15-07, 08:52 AM	Not tailoring encounters and having something end up fighting the party that is obviously beyond them and killing them and then just writing it off as "oh well, random encounter" is an easy way for DMs to not work and is a lazy excuse. My main problem with this approach is that the players soon learn that the world IS tailored to their abilities, and they realize that the only time they're really at risk is when they make mistakes. This often leads to the "Well, the DM wouldn't give us an encounter we couldn't beat ... CHARGE!!!" mentality that is a poor reflection of how adventurers "should" approach the dangerous world.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 08:53 AM	Personally, though, I don't use random encounters. I do in the sense that I will include things that are not part of the main storyline but I prepare them before the game, pre-panning it's inclusion in the session and calculating XP and treasure ahead of time. So it may be random for the PCs but it is not random for me as DM. Ditto.
Cantankerous 03-15-07, 09:11 AM	As a general rule I'm a tweaker, but... All a DM really NEEDS to be is: *Creative and able to remember that the first and foremost rule is: have fun!!! *Flexible when the situation demands it, *Consistent whenver possible, *Empathic towards his Players (not towards their characters), *and as Knowledgeable about the rules as he can manage. If he can do that, he's got the game by the tail. My advice to the young DM is: In many situations tweaking seems to make sense, but don't go out of your way to look for those situations, let them come to you. When it does though, do NOT be afraid to do so. YOU know your group and their capabilities infinitely better than the game designers do. Isshia
Newpaintbrush 03-15-07, 11:25 AM	A poll: Should a DM carefully study the capabilities of her group and tweak encounters and puzzles accordingly, and generally steering the adventure in ways that can let all the contribute sometimes? Or should a DM stick with the pre-planned/pre-supplied encounters come high waters and mag 8 earthquakes, placing the onus on the adventurers to get pas a problem. Why? Would your answer be any different if it were a Solo campaign? Don't tweak TOO much. It's really weird when the ranger with preferred enemy: outsider keeps running into outsiders. At mid levels (around 5th to 7th level), you can usually require the adventurers to get around a problem. They should have the resources to do it.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 11:38 AM	For a solo individual like a caster then yes. A Beguiler is fractionally better off as they have armour and some stealth capability. You could manage a couple of low level combat encounters, just about - but even then, it's nearly a one-hit kill. Assuming a 14 Con, you're only going to have 8 hits at level one. Since a single caster is so weak at level 1, how would you tweak the CR system to give him more survivable encounters? The DMG doesn't really give any advice on non-4-character parties. Should I divide the ECL of the character by 4 when looking for a suitable Encounter level? That's at the low levels, and then once the character levels to...level 9 or so, then start doing ECL-4 instead of ECL/4? I mean, two orcs are CR1 normally, but 2 orcs might easily annihilate a level 1 caster.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-15-07, 12:15 PM	Don't tweak TOO much. It's really weird when the ranger with preferred enemy: outsider keeps running into outsiders. Not at all. As I said I am of the "impersonal world" school of DMing. The world exists beyond the limits of the PCs. If they seek out danger that is too much for them to handle then they will likley get their asses handed to them. The world does not scale to their abilities. However, an adventure is different. It is designed or selected specifically to be interected with by a particular party of adventurers. It is a distinct construct set within the gaming world. And adventure should sclae to the PCs as it has been designed or selected specifically for those PCs. If the ranger has "favoured enemy: outsider" then you are doing a him a disservice by not having him encounter outsiders. Sure he may never stumble across them in his random wanderings of the world but they should show up in the context of an adventure. Not every one, of course, but in an adventure the DM should always strive to include encounters and challenges that specifically address the strengths and needs of the player characters. Think of it like this: a PC is kind of like a race car driver. They can wander the highwyas and byways of the nation looking for times when they can drive fast. Sometimes they may find it, other times they may not, and still other times they may get toally shut down. An adventure is kind of like a racetrack that the DM provides specifically for the PC to excel in their chosen art. Sure you are going to provide twists and turns to make it challenging, but the one thing you don't want to do is set a speed limit. There is no point in making the racetrack if you're not going to let them open it up and really shine. That is waht an adventure really is: a set of encoutners and challenges that are designed, ultimatley, to let your PCs really pull out all their tricks and skills and really shine.
The Heretic 03-15-07, 12:38 PM	The encounters that I generate (or that are handed to me by the module) are the ones that I use, bar none. The world is not there for the PC's and doesn't scale itself to their desires. If they get the idea that they are about to get wiped, they need to sacrifice their pride and run the hell away. On the other hand, all of my encounters are prepared and examined in advance. I consider how the monsters would work together, who they would identify as the greatest threat, how they would react to that threat, etc...
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 12:46 PM	Since a single caster is so weak at level 1, how would you tweak the CR system to give him more survivable encounters? The DMG doesn't really give any advice on non-4-character parties. Should I divide the ECL of the character by 4 when looking for a suitable Encounter level? That's at the low levels, and then once the character levels to...level 9 or so, then start doing ECL-4 instead of ECL/4? I mean, two orcs are CR1 normally, but 2 orcs might easily annihilate a level 1 caster. One Orc would (at 2D4+4 damage). The problem with bottom level casters - especially light, squishy type like Beguilers - is that they will only take one hit before they go down. And because you're at the bottom floor, you can't use anything lower. It doesn't matter in a party, since the squishy, squishy caster is hiding behind the meat shield (who probably will have enough hits and/or AC to take a couple of hits, hopefully a healer on standby to fix the damage fast enough.) When dealing with a single 1st level character, though, one slightly above average - or even average - attack roll and they are toast. It's like having combat as a save-or-die. If the Beguiler gets initiative, then maybe the first shot (or spell) will deal with the opposition, but if they get to go first, it could all be over. Essentially, because you have no back-up, you have no recovery options if it all goes pear-shaped (this is equally true, of course, with save-or-else spells at any level with one character). The ways you can deal with first level characters as individuals are as follows (in no particular order): 1) Start them at higher level and bypass the danger level. 2) Give them a free hit point 'kicker' (as Knights of the Old Republic did). Rationailse it with background or something, like they did. 3) Have the first few adventures be primarily non-combat and give out fairly hefty story or roleplaying awards (Neverwinter Nights 2 did this, and I think the first one did too). 4) Have an NPC (or NPCs) travel with the character (as party members, hirelings, guards or what-have-you) even they only fight on the PC's side in combat. This could include animal companions or anything that takes some of the heat off the PC. 5) Have encounters that are very low in danger level, i.e. poor attack bonus and low stats (e.g. normal rats, monkeys, owls, or one or two Kobolds; probably one if the character is not a martial character. (This is one time when the Fighter well out-shines the casters!) Remember, though, even a Dog or Kobold can take 50-75% of a caster's hits off with one hit! 6) Give the PC above level average defensive gear (so to reduce the chance of a hit). 7) Roll your dice behind the screen and fudge the attacks/damage so as not to kill the PC outright (this can apply on top of whatever else you use). If you are of the school of thought that consider the roll of the dice sacred and that it is 'cheating' to change your rolls then be prepared to accept that it is very possible it will be a short solo campaign, as one lucky shot will kill the PC unless you take a great number of precautions.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 12:48 PM	I also don't pay much attention to the travesty of a mockery of a sham that are CR's. An encounter of a certain EL may be a TPK to one party of a certain level, and a cakewalk to another party of the same level. It's best to do it old school - compare creatures etc to the party's strength before throwing it at them.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 01:09 PM	I'm not very familiar with old school DnD. So you're saying that the CR system is a relatively new construct, and that it is inherently flawed, correct? compare creatures etc to the party's strength before throwing it at them. How would you go about accurately comparing party's strength? Run a simulation of the combat? That seem very time consuming. The world is not there for the PC's and doesn't scale itself to their desires. If they get the idea that they are about to get wiped, they need to sacrifice their pride and run the hell away. Totally agreed, but I'm just making sure it's also the DMs job to make sure that not every single encounter is overpowering. For example, you wouldn't throw a Great Wyrm Red Dragon at a level 1 character as part of the story/adventure. At level 1, the kind of places the DM should be steering the adventurer towards would contain things like single kobolds, a wolf, some dire rats maybe, stuff like that right? Players would leave your game if you don't throw enough appropriate encounters at them to go through.
Cantankerous 03-15-07, 01:11 PM	The CR system isn't perfect but it is INFINTELY better for most DMs than the throw them together and hope system that was standard in earlier editions. Isshia
Zumarai 03-15-07, 01:18 PM	How would you go about accurately comparing party's strength? -Compare the melee PC's attack bonuses against the monsters AC -Compare the party's Saves against the DC's of the creature's special attacks/spell-like abilities. -Take movement speeds and modes into account. You know, things like that.
Cantankerous 03-15-07, 01:22 PM	-Compare the melee PC's attack bonuses against the monsters AC -Compare the party's Saves against the DC's of the creature's special attacks/spell-like abilities. -Take movement speeds and modes into account. You know, things like that. Which is in basis what the CR system does if used properly. It's strnegth too is that it takes ALOT less time and doesn't bother itself with descrepencies like the Fighter in the party having an AC*34 and the Wizard in the same party having an AC*12, or the Wizard having a Will+21 and the Fighter having a Will+8-
Zumarai 03-15-07, 01:24 PM	Which is in basis what the CR system does if used properly. It's strnegth too is that it takes ALOT less time and doesn't bother itself with descrepencies like the Fighter in the party having an AC*34 and the Wizard in the same party having an AC*12, or the Wizard having a Will+21 and the Fighter having a Will+8- Totally, but the CR system was designed around a party of 4 built with the Elite Array (25-point buy), so if you deviate from that…
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 01:26 PM	Right, so how should the formula and power calculations deviate if you're using only one character? The charatcer has much less resources, much less turns, and much less abilities than a standard 4-person party. The battle radically changes!
Sereno 03-15-07, 01:29 PM	Totally agreed, but I'm just making sure it's also the DMs job to make sure that not every single encounter is overpowering. For example, you wouldn't throw a Great Wyrm Red Dragon at a level 1 character as part of the story/adventure. At level 1, the kind of places the DM should be steering the adventurer towards would contain things like single kobolds, a wolf, some dire rats maybe, stuff like that right? Players would leave your game if you don't throw enough appropriate encounters at them to go through. You are correct. It is NEVER them DMs job to only throw overwhelming encounters at any party at any level. It's not fun and quickly breeds a Player vs. DM mentality which almost precludes everyone from having fun. At level one, the DM should be preparing adventures/plots that are appropriate for them; rescuing a kidnapped child from a 2nd level NPC, capturing a small band of goblin bandits, recovering an item from a "lost temple" with some skeletons and a 2nd level evil cleric in it.... As the PC gain levels, the adventures should scale with them as well. However, if you want the world to feel more real and less "Well, the DM wouldn't give us an encounter we couldn't beat!" you should always shake things up with the odd too-tough or too-easy encounter. Especially when the PCs aren't really "on task" ... when they're just traveling or hanging out in a town are good times to spring some unusual encounters on them. In an adventure when my players were about 5th level, they were trying to rescue some rich kids who got in trouble "playing adventurer" and captured by a Thieves' Guild. When they broke into the thieves' hideout, the first encounter was with a couple of level 1 "guards" who'd been playing poker. Why only level 1? Because, at least in this case, it didn't make sense to "waste" high level guild members guarding a door. The high level guys were out making money, not standing around guarding doors. The guards served their purpose; the sounded the alarm and then got killed. :)
Zumarai 03-15-07, 01:36 PM	Right, so how should the formula and power calculations deviate if you're using only one character? You throw an EL 4 below the PC's level to equate to the standard EL of the same level as a party of four.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 01:39 PM	I'm not very familiar with old school DnD. So you're saying that the CR system is a relatively new construct, and that it is inherently flawed, correct? Yes, to both. The latter is not so much poor design as the inherent problem of trying to balance a system with far too many variables to do so. The CR system is a benchmark, calibrated against a party of 4 characters (in the standard roles of melee combatant, healer/buffer, skill monkey and caster, or to put in another way, some permutation of Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard). It assumes a 25 point buy (e.g. the Elite array 15,14,13,12,10,8). It assumes that a level-equivilent CR will use up 20% of the PCs resources. Finally, the CR/XP system as written assumes that most, if not all, XP will come from combat encounters. The closer you stick to this design basis, the 'better' (I use the term broadly) the CR system works. The more you deviate, the less reliable it becomes. This is a purely mechanical values, however, and does not take into account the difficulty of the encounter (i.e. tactics, terrain) nor for unusual situations such as lone PCs, odd party mixes etc. It is a useful broad guideline, but little else. It's very situationally dependant. As I said, I don't bother to calculate the Encounter Level (EL) of an encounter (i.e how much of the party's resources are expended). In theory, you use it to modify the amount of XP given out for the creature's CR depending on how difficult the encounter was. I award XP equal to half that of the CR, and double if the encounter used up sufficent resouces that I consider the PC earned the full award, and then award XP for story goals. I just eyeball what seem to be a challenge; learning to do that is something you get from experience (an it tends to apply over several systems; in addition, I'm a wargamer and a lot of our games have no points system so it's all eyeballing). If you don't have the experience, yes, then it's not a bad idea to runa mock combat. If you've got only one PC, it will be a very short exercise (one way or another) at level 1.
pheron 03-15-07, 01:49 PM	Absolutely -- but not so much that the the realism of the world shows or so that the player feels either hampered or protected. In my campaign the player at 3rd level got chased from their home lands after a family of Frost Giants took over. If the player had chosen to assault the giants right away -- I would not have tailored the fight to their level. They knew the dangers and rushed in anyway -- crap happens to those who think crappily. However as they have adventured they have fought in encounters where they had the advantage and some where they were outclassed, just book monster player at book levels. These weren't tailored other than I though that they looked interesting and weren't just going to kill the PCs right out. On the other hand when the giants send out assassins and bounty hunters -- those teams are tailored for the PC group exactly. The giants know their foes and plan accordingly.
Sereno 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	Another way to help guide the DM in planning encounters is to use an Encounter Calculator like this one (Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm)) ... it will give you a general idea of how tough the encounter is supposed to be ranging from 'Very Easy' to 'Unbeatable' And, it works with any number of PCs and any number of encountered creatures (even of varying CR). It's about as accurate as the CR system gets, and is as good a guideline as any DM is going to get. For all it's flaws it's certainly light-years ahead of the previous versions of DnD.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 02:00 PM	It's about as accurate as the CR system gets, and is as good a guideline as any DM is going to get. For all it's flaws it's certainly light-years ahead of the previous versions of DnD. Basically, the CR system is like the points values for most wargames. It's supposed to make things even, but it can't be perfect (and sometimes is not even close) because it can't possibly account for every situation - and this is even more salient to an RPG when you are far less abstracted and there are far more variables to consider. So you take it with a pinch of salt. Even erratic balancing guidelines are better than none. (You may find, like me, once you've been doing it a while, you will be able to estimate much closer to your aims without trying to rely on it too much.)
Cantankerous 03-15-07, 02:17 PM	Totally, but the CR system was designed around a party of 4 built with the Elite Array (25-point buy), so if you deviate from that… So if you deviate from that.... you are still much better off than you would be otherwise and since it IS the basis upon which the game is ideally situated and IS in essence usually the case if the Players know what they are doing (and has been so since the days when the only way you could buy the game was in baggies) it's not unuseful. Perfect? Not at all. But still much better than the "old school" way. Isshia
Zumarai 03-15-07, 02:20 PM	So if you deviate from that.... you are still much better off than you would be otherwise and since it IS the basis upon which the game is ideally situated and IS in essence usually the case if the Players know what they are doing (and has been so since the days when the only way you could buy the game was in baggies) it's not unuseful. Perfect? Not at all. But still much better than the "old school" way. Yeah, it's a semi-useful benchmark; let's leave it at that.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 02:49 PM	You throw an EL 4 below the PC's level to equate to the standard EL of the same level as a party of four. But how would I throw a -3 EL at my level 1 caster? Go with 1/3 CR instead? And at some point it just gets ridiculous becuase enemies only get so weak. What, should the squishy types fight housecats for exp? I mean, those can't kill anyone, right?
razorboy 03-15-07, 02:54 PM	Well, I tried running encounters straight out of a module for my group, it didn't work so well - some encounters they just walked through, others were totally brutal. Since then, I've started altering encounters to give my group a more of a balanced challenge. While I do not try to change the purpose of the encounter or the general setup, I usually upgrade the NPCs, maybe throw in an extra monster, change the loot to be more useful to the party. Oh, and no random encounters in my games, ever.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 03:24 PM	But how would I throw a -3 EL at my level 1 caster? Go with 1/3 CR instead? And at some point it just gets ridiculous becuase enemies only get so weak. What, should the squishy types fight housecats for exp? I mean, those can't kill anyone, right? The CR system is at it least useful at the extreme levels, I'm afraid. Cats are actually quite danagerous to a low level character! Two attacks at +4? Again, given reasonable stats, you ac is no likely to be better than 16 for a beguiler, so that's a fairly high chance of a hit! Yes, one house cat is actually not far off an equal challenge to a 1st level character (remember it only has to do 1-2 hits to achieve the objective of using up 20% of your hit points!) As I said, Kobolds (in moderation), a few rats, maybe cats! The game struggles at this specific level, since there's not so much difference between character or monster power and effectiveness at first level.
Sereno 03-15-07, 03:27 PM	But how would I throw a -3 EL at my level 1 caster? Go with 1/3 CR instead? And at some point it just gets ridiculous becuase enemies only get so weak. What, should the squishy types fight housecats for exp? I mean, those can't kill anyone, right? Unfortunately for you, you're put in a rather tight situation. DMing for a solo wizard is a difficult task for even an experienced DM for exactly the reason you've discovered ... a wizard is really a bad choice for a starting solo PC! Instead of monsters, you might consider using NPCs. A couple of NPC Commoners armed with clubs, with low stats, could easily be a "gang of bandits." in a small rural town. A couple flashy uses of Prestidigitation and some decent Diplomacy/Intimidate rolls and the PC can avoid combat all together and still beat the challenge and get XP. But, yeah, any time swords are drawn or fangs/claws are bared, a lone 1st level wizard is in trouble ... there IS a reason why PCs travel in parties. There are also some things you could do for no other reason than to make a solo game work. Nothing says you can't create a new class of spellcaster that has a higher hit die and can wear some armor. It's just one player so it's not like you'll be cheating anyone else by giving your friend a "special" PC. You could just give the guy a couple of free Toughness feats because he's been "touched by the gods" and guarantee that he'll be able to withstand at least one round of combat against a guy with a sword. Realistically a first-time DM should be able to start out with a basic balanced party: fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue. I feel for you! :)
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 03:43 PM	Unfortunately for you, you're put in a rather tight situation. DMing for a solo wizard is a difficult task for even an experienced DM for exactly the reason you've discovered ... a wizard is really a bad choice for a starting solo PC! Instead of monsters, you might consider using NPCs. A couple of NPC Commoners armed with clubs, with low stats, could easily be a "gang of bandits." in a small rural town. A couple flashy uses of Prestidigitation and some decent Diplomacy/Intimidate rolls and the PC can avoid combat all together and still beat the challenge and get XP. But, yeah, any time swords are drawn or fangs/claws are bared, a lone 1st level wizard is in trouble ... there IS a reason why PCs travel in parties. There are also some things you could do for no other reason than to make a solo game work. Nothing says you can't create a new class of spellcaster that has a higher hit die and can wear some armor. It's just one player so it's not like you'll be cheating anyone else by giving your friend a "special" PC. You could just give the guy a couple of free Toughness feats because he's been "touched by the gods" and guarantee that he'll be able to withstand at least one round of combat against a guy with a sword. Realistically a first-time DM should be able to start out with a basic balanced party: fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue. I feel for you! :) This is pretty much what I've been saying, only in a more concise and less long-winded than me!
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 04:34 PM	Well it's not a Wiard, but a Beguiler, so she can already wear armor, and has 8 hitpoins at level 1 thanks to con. At this point, the DM must make it somewhat easy for illusions and other scare tactics to work is what you're saying right? Alternatively, the DM *can* give the player some better defenses...but what? Damage reduction at level 1 to offset low HP? Oh, and by "rats" do you mean normal rats or Dire rats? I forgot their CRs.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-15-07, 04:41 PM	The CR system is a rule-of-thumb guideline, nothing more. A little experimentation will let most DMs figure out where their party really fits into it.
Black_Puffin 03-15-07, 05:59 PM	Two things: 1. In a campaign that I'm taking over I have to take into account that the only "healer" of the party is the heavily multiclassed ranger with a wand of Cure Critical Wounds. The others are a bard, fighter, a homebrew ninja, and a rogue/fighter. I will have to tailor most of the encounters to not to overpower them. They have a tendency to rush headlong into things, I'll be encouraging/rewarding roleplay. 2. Having played several solo-Beguiler games with my Bro DMing, I can tell you they can be tougher than you think. With Int as their spellcasting ability, petition Forgotten Realms' Mind-Over-Body feat (1st level only, swap Int for Con for HP; works for wizards too). Mage Armor comes in handy, scrolls especially. Buy potions by the gallon if you can. (Optional) Comp Arcane has a feat to advance Armored Mage to the next level of armor and a level or two in Fighter provides the proficiencies, large HD, feat (suggestion:combat expertise and Imp Feint), and weapons to survive. I usually try to take into account what is missing from the party before throwing anything at them. In the first example, a cleric/healer and an offensive spellslinger (the bard, my char, can only do so much espescially since he's about to be a NPC if he rejoins and only has one offensive spell). Undead are troublesome for this party and they haven't really faced off against them or constructs in their previous adventures. Maybe I'll use them as a rude awakening. When my Bro and I play solo, we award full exp for encounters straight off of the chart (you beat 2 orcs, you get the exp that the others would have gotten). RPexp is a big factor in our games. Of course we have two different preferences in types of games; he likes modern, I like fantasy. If I was making an adventure for a caster, I'd start off with either an NPC warrior ally or throw wildlife before the main dungeon. A few bats, rats and what-not should beef up the caster before the main adventure. There is also the notion of awakened animals of low CR. Environmental hazards are also an option, crossing a chasm is just as tough as beating the snot out of a lowly Kobold. FYI: I have nothing against kobolds, I actually like them and have played a few as PCs...Hmmm...for the caster a Helper-Kobold...now there's an idea...
taski 03-15-07, 06:03 PM	There's also the gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). That variant basically lets you gain the abilities of two classes at once. It's very useful for solo games, because it can give one character the versatility of two characters. Also, since your player picked a Beguiler, he/she might want to play in more social encounters than combat encounters... or at least against sentient opponents so they can really take advantage of the beguiler's illusions and enchantments. Try asking. If they want more social encounters, it gets a little easier to tell if they can "beat" someone at talking. Just compare both the Beguiler's and the other guy's bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, disguise, spot checks, will saves, enchantments, etc. Whoever has the better modifiers will probably win. You can mix and match, too, so that a villain might see through a disguise, but have bad sense motive and be easily bluffed. Remember: the character doesn't have to kill to get XP! He could talk a thug out of attacking him, and still win the same experience points as if he had killed the guy. A commoner thug with no social skills will be easy to bluff, charm, etc., and the beguiler could even get the thug to be a friendly underworld contact! That thug changes from being an expendable enemy to being a new source for adventure hooks, so you benefit, too. When determining XP from social encounters, I consider the NPC's CR, and add or subtract one, depending on that NPC's general level of social skill. A single bard of the beguiler's same level will be a tricky social encounter, but a fighter of the beguiler's same level might be easy, due to low will saves and no social skills. So account for that when determining XP when the beguiler tricks an opponent into not being an opponent.
Loestalx 03-15-07, 06:30 PM	My main problem with this approach is that the players soon learn that the world IS tailored to their abilities, and they realize that the only time they're really at risk is when they make mistakes. This often leads to the "Well, the DM wouldn't give us an encounter we couldn't beat ... CHARGE!!!" mentality that is a poor reflection of how adventurers "should" approach the dangerous world. I never said don't make it challanging for them...just that it shouldn't be a one sided fight. I kill players sometimes and I tailor every single encounter. But my tailoring ensures that the players are properly equipped and have a chance against said encounters. Always keep the fear of god in your players, by all means. I never meant that, because then they will walk all over your game.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 06:39 PM	Well it's not a Wiard, but a Beguiler, so she can already wear armor, and has 8 hitpoins at level 1 thanks to con. At this point, the DM must make it somewhat easy for illusions and other scare tactics to work is what you're saying right? Alternatively, the DM *can* give the player some better defenses...but what? Damage reduction at level 1 to offset low HP? Oh, and by "rats" do you mean normal rats or Dire rats? I forgot their CRs. I meant normal rats (at CR 1/8). One Dire Rat is a CR 1/3, and is +4 (D4). If your beguiler was careful, he could handle one, maybe two. He ought to be able to handle several normal rats. Of course, that's not especially heroic. DR could work, but something granting extra AC or maybe temporary hit points might be better (if you stick it on an item or somthing, once per day you get +10 (or more) hits for an hour or something; you can always remove it later). To be honest, though, I'd tempted to follow Knights of the Old Republic's method for a single character, and give them a boost of 10-20 hits at level one for some background reason (in the game it was because the protagonist was a war veteran). I think you really need to grab the character sheet and roll some dice and see how a fight turns out against maybe a couple of opponents (say a Kobold striaght out of the MM, a Dire Rat an say, four normal rats). That might give you an idea of what the character can expect to handle.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 07:15 PM	Ok, this is sad, so I went to the monster manual, and read the Kobold entry again, and it says koboldsnever attack unless it's a 2:1 in their favor. So, I ran a mock combat with a kobold sorcerer with a dire rat as a familiar, aided by a Kobold rogue who is pretty decent with traps involving burning oil. 2 Kobolds should be CR 1/2 right? They totally annihilated the Beguiler. Then I tried to pit the Beguiler vs a single Human Warrior Skeleton (CR 1/3). The skeleton won initiative (according to the MM, it has Improved Initiative), bullrushed the Beguiler a couple of spaces, into a wall. The Beguiler is armed with a dagger and crossbow, and the dagger can't get past the DR of the skeleton at all, so the AoO made by the Beguiler did squat. The Beguiler can't take a 5-foot step to get out of the threatened squares, and tries to cast defensely (for Color Spray. Not sure what other level 1 spells a Beguiler can use against undead effectively in combat). She fails, losing the spell. Next round, the Skeleton full-attacks using his 2 claws (1d4+1), killing the Beguiler.
Loestalx 03-15-07, 07:22 PM	Ok, this is sad, so I went to the monster manual, and read the Kobold entry again, and it says koboldsnever attack unless it's a 2:1 in their favor. So, I ran a mock combat with a kobold sorcerer with a dire rat as a familiar, aided by a Kobold rogue who is pretty decent with traps involving burning oil. 2 Kobolds should be CR 1/2 right? They totally annihilated the Beguiler. Then I tried to pit the Beguiler vs a single Human Warrior Skeleton (CR 1/3). The skeleton won initiative (according to the MM, it has Improved Initiative), bullrushed the Beguiler a couple of spaces, into a wall. The Beguiler is armed with a dagger and crossbow, and the dagger can't get past the DR of the skeleton at all, so the AoO made by the Beguiler did squat. The Beguiler can't take a 5-foot step to get out of the threatened squares, and tries to cast defensely (for Color Spray. Not sure what other level 1 spells a Beguiler can use against undead effectively in combat). She fails, losing the spell. Next round, the Skeleton full-attacks using his 2 claws (1d4+1), killing the Beguiler. I don't understand all the focus on solo stuff is. The game is clearly designed as a group game. The mechanics aren't going to support things like Frosthammers example. Sure you can run a solo game, but the game isn't designed for it.
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 07:27 PM	There's a lot of things the designers didn't forsee. That's what houserules are for. If we can houserule a more reasonable CR system for a solo situation, then that'd be terrific, because right now some of these encoutners are horribly under-CRed for this particular character, it feels like.
Loestalx 03-15-07, 07:29 PM	There's a lot of things the designers didn't forsee. That's what houserules are for. If we can houserule a more reasonable CR system for a solo situation, then that'd be terrific, because right now some of these encoutners are horribly under-CRed for this particular character, it feels like. Well I honestly think anthing that doesn't have a full CR in the MM is BS. Kobolds have a hit die. Same with goblins, why don't they justify a whole CR? I mean. I don't see them as being any weaker than some low lever characters. But yeah, I see your point.
aotrscommander 03-15-07, 07:40 PM	Ok, this is sad, so I went to the monster manual, and read the Kobold entry again, and it says koboldsnever attack unless it's a 2:1 in their favor. So, I ran a mock combat with a kobold sorcerer with a dire rat as a familiar, aided by a Kobold rogue who is pretty decent with traps involving burning oil. 2 Kobolds should be CR 1/2 right? They totally annihilated the Beguiler. Then I tried to pit the Beguiler vs a single Human Warrior Skeleton (CR 1/3). The skeleton won initiative (according to the MM, it has Improved Initiative), bullrushed the Beguiler a couple of spaces, into a wall. The Beguiler is armed with a dagger and crossbow, and the dagger can't get past the DR of the skeleton at all, so the AoO made by the Beguiler did squat. The Beguiler can't take a 5-foot step to get out of the threatened squares, and tries to cast defensely (for Color Spray. Not sure what other level 1 spells a Beguiler can use against undead effectively in combat). She fails, losing the spell. Next round, the Skeleton full-attacks using his 2 claws (1d4+1), killing the Beguiler. See, this is the problem! Don't put too much weight on the MM entries, especially with humanoids. Most of the information like Kobolds favouring 2-1 odds is mostly flavour text, not rigid guideline. You can have single Kobolds running around if you want! I should comment on the skeleton fight. First, Skeletons are mindless, so unless it was commanded by another character, it would most likely have simply bimbled up to the beguiler and attempted to cave his head in without any regard for tactics. Secondly, Undead are just about the worst opponents for beguilers to face since they are immune to mind-affecting spells, which elimnates most of the beguiler's repatoir. Colour Spray, for example, is [Mind-Affecting] so wouldn't have had the least effect on a creature without a mind and immune mind-affecting things anyway. That said, illusions that aren't mind-affecting would pretty much fool a skeleton, since it's mindless. This is good, since at level one, you're basically shafted as far as dealing with Undead as beguiler. All you can do is try and distract it with Dancing Lights or Ghost Sound (highly unlikely, as unless it has orders to investigate it won't pay them any attention). Silent Image or Obscuring Mist would help you hopefully avoid being spotted if used correctly (remembering Silent Image is nonmobile). After that, your only other options are to sneak past (skeletons have dire Spot and Listen checks!) or (if you're not in a Chain Shirt) armour up with Mage Armour and go find a club. Either that or use Expedious Retreat to run away! As you have already seen, part of the problem is that if the opposition gets initiative, your beguiler is in a great deal of trouble... maybe you should have them use Charm Person to bring a handy commoner to use as a meat shield! Mage Armour last an hour a level, so if he beguiler is expecting trouble, they should cast that up. That said, the bonus from Mage Armour doesn't stack with normal armour, so if you're already wearing a Chain Shirt, you won't gain any bonus from it. You might be better setting the lower level adventurers as sneak-fests, trying to get the beguiler to sneak past, enchant or otherwise distract lowly 1st level guards (with no ranks in Spot or Listen!) while trying to resuce somone/steal something (etc.) Have combat as a threat (since you beguiler knows they'll be shredded in combat). An encounter with a handful of aggresive rats in the cellat could provide you with your combat fix. If you milk it enough (and award the XP for circumnavigating the guards rather than defeating them), that could take you to level 2 at least. Then you'll have more hit points and you might be able to manage a couple of Kobolds. (On that point, I would suggest you give the beguiler max hit points rather than roll for the first 3-4 levels (maybe every level) since they'll need every ounce of extra help!)
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 08:21 PM	Right, the Beguiler didn't have a chance to distract it with an illusion since she lost initiative and was going to be bullrushed or charged or whatever immediately. I think the Beguiler had literally no way of damaging the skeleton. As for charming a commoner...hmm...interesting proposition. Now, do the subjects of a Charm Person spell remain friendly after the spell wears off? Also, wouldn't it be evil to chamr an innocent to bring with you just so it can take a hit for you? Can you comment on the kobold fight as well? It went like this: Beguiler spots some sort of trap. Glancing around, she didn't see the 2 kobolds hiding in waiting. Suspicious, she cast Mage Armor on herself, and tbe she goes to disarm the trap. She's successful, but during that time, the Kobold Sorcerer uses the Surprise round to start casting Summon Monster I. The Rogue uses the standard action for the Surprise Round to move behind the Beguiler. Surprise Round is over, and everyone rolls for initiative. The Kobold Rogue gets to go first, and since the Beguiler hasn't had time to move yet, she is still flat-footed, and the Rogue hits, doing 6 damage thanks to sneak attack. The Beguiler gets initiative next. Deciding that this is really a bad turn of events, decides to Withdraw (she thought about casting Expeditious Retreat, but then she'd provoke an AoO from the Rogue when she moves out of his threatened square), running some distance away. The sorcerer's turn comes up, and he finishes summoning his Fiendish Dire Rat. His Familiar Dire Rat and the Feidnish Dire Rat are both directed to Charge the Beguiler. One of them hits, knocking her out. End of combat. I'm not entirely confident that this feels like a CR 1/2 encounter, to be honest.
DMDaddy 03-15-07, 10:32 PM	A few options to help the Beguiler: As a DM I would: 1. Rasie all his stats to super hero statis or 2. Raise him to level 3 or 3. Tailor encounters that were very light on combat and more on role play with diplomacy, intimidate, bluff. or 4. Give him a second character to play
FrostHammer 03-15-07, 11:23 PM	Well, the CR system does assume a 25 point buy. What would you say is an acceptable super-hero array?
DMDaddy 03-16-07, 12:14 AM	Well, the CR system does assume a 25 point buy. What would you say is an acceptable super-hero array? With two weak classes I've used 18,17,16,15,14,13 with decent success(58pnts). You might want to try 18,18,16,16,14,14 for one sorcerer or wizard(64pnts). Then lower the hit points of the opponents as needed. Somewhere there should be a balance that you can find. Maybe CR+1 monsters.
FrostHammer 03-16-07, 01:42 AM	What do youman CR+1 monsters? Are you saying the solo character that has uber stats should fight monsters that are one level higher?
aotrscommander 03-16-07, 07:08 AM	Right, the Beguiler didn't have a chance to distract it with an illusion since she lost initiative and was going to be bullrushed or charged or whatever immediately. I think the Beguiler had literally no way of damaging the skeleton. As for charming a commoner...hmm...interesting proposition. Now, do the subjects of a Charm Person spell remain friendly after the spell wears off? Also, wouldn't it be evil to chamr an innocent to bring with you just so it can take a hit for you? Can you comment on the kobold fight as well? It went like this: Beguiler spots some sort of trap. Glancing around, she didn't see the 2 kobolds hiding in waiting. Suspicious, she cast Mage Armor on herself, and tbe she goes to disarm the trap. She's successful, but during that time, the Kobold Sorcerer uses the Surprise round to start casting Summon Monster I. The Rogue uses the standard action for the Surprise Round to move behind the Beguiler. Surprise Round is over, and everyone rolls for initiative. The Kobold Rogue gets to go first, and since the Beguiler hasn't had time to move yet, she is still flat-footed, and the Rogue hits, doing 6 damage thanks to sneak attack. The Beguiler gets initiative next. Deciding that this is really a bad turn of events, decides to Withdraw (she thought about casting Expeditious Retreat, but then she'd provoke an AoO from the Rogue when she moves out of his threatened square), running some distance away. The sorcerer's turn comes up, and he finishes summoning his Fiendish Dire Rat. His Familiar Dire Rat and the Feidnish Dire Rat are both directed to Charge the Beguiler. One of them hits, knocking her out. End of combat. I'm not entirely confident that this feels like a CR 1/2 encounter, to be honest. It wasn't! No wonder the beguiler got flattened! The Kobold Warrior in the MM is a CR 1/2 encounter. Two PC classes (sorcerer and rogue) are at least a CR of their class level. So you had two CR 1s against a single first-level character. This works out as an EL 2 encounter (by the DMG) for a party of 4 (i.e. about 30-40% of resources). So that works back to about 120-160% of the beguiler's resources! (Okay, that's not strictly true, but theyhad much more offensive punch in proportion to the beguiler. One of the things I've learned the hard way is that if you out-number anything with the PCs (or PC classes), the thing tend to go down very fast, even the BBEGs.) Try that again with 1-2 Kobold Warriors straight out of the book and see how you go then. While we're at it, what are the beguiler's stats like (i.e. what method did you use and what are the values)? As to the Charm question, it doesn't say you forget what happened, so I would therefore conclude that you don't. Thus at the end of the spell, the creature's behavior will drop back to normal. (I didn't say it was an option for a Good beguiler!)
Sereno 03-16-07, 09:03 AM	FrostHammer, another thing that might be skewing your perceptions is that it seems like you're running "arena" combat. The beguiler and the opponent face each other across a couple squares on the combat grid and you roll initiative. "Real" encounters usually aren't like that. The beguiler is going to be walking around, getting chances to hear or spot his opponents before he decides to engage. He can take advantage of terrain, take cover, sneak, hide, attempt to surprise, use Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate. What you've been doing is putting the beguiler in absolutely the WORST possible situation for them: back-to-the-wall combat-to-the-death. A beguiler should be doing everything possible to avoid this situation, and would be gaining XP everytime they did. Also, as has already been mentioned, adding class levels to a monster raises the CR by 1 for each associated class level (basically if the class "fits" the race) rogue and sorcerer are *both* associated classes for kobolds! No wonder they wiped the floor with the beguiler!!
Sereno 03-16-07, 09:06 AM	I don't understand all the focus on solo stuff is. The game is clearly designed as a group game. The mechanics aren't going to support things like Frosthammers example. Sure you can run a solo game, but the game isn't designed for it. A solo game is what FrostHammer's currently stuck with, we've mostly been trying to help him get a handle on how to deal with a difficult situation his first time out.
FrostHammer 03-16-07, 03:12 PM	FrostHammer, another thing that might be skewing your perceptions is that it seems like you're running "arena" combat. The beguiler and the opponent face each other across a couple squares on the combat grid and you roll initiative. "Real" encounters usually aren't like that. The beguiler is going to be walking around, getting chances to hear or spot his opponents before he decides to engage. He can take advantage of terrain, take cover, sneak, hide, attempt to surprise, use Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate. What you've been doing is putting the beguiler in absolutely the WORST possible situation for them: back-to-the-wall combat-to-the-death. I agree, bot the thing is, this Beguiler has no ranks in Spot and Listen (which may be a bad idea), and no matter how she is diplomatic, *eventually* she'll haveto face combat right? Try that again with 1-2 Kobold Warriors straight out of the book and see how you go then. While we're at it, what are the beguiler's stats like (i.e. what method did you use and what are the values)? Generation of stats was rolling 4d6, re-rolling the total for any stat is less than 10. Then at the end, the player gets to add 2 to any of the stats. The stats are 11, 14, 15, 20, 12, 12, human. I'll go run a simulation combat between two kobold warriors and the Beguiler now. Before the +2 Bonus, this is the equivalent of a 41 point buy, which is pretty powerful.
FrostHammer 03-16-07, 05:11 PM	Ok, here's how the fight vs 2 kobold warriors went. Two kobold warriors patrol near the entrance of the cave that serves as the base of a kobold scouting camp. Their Spears rest behind their backs as their hands carry slings, hoping to kill some small game to eat later on. It is noon, and their Light Sensitivity means they are dazzled and their spot, listen, and attack rolls have a -1 penalty. They talk about wanting to catch a rabbit, and the Beguiler (who can understand Kobold) hears that. The Beguiler sneaks nearby, keeping to the underbrush. She quietly casts Ghost Sound, simulating the sound of a a rabbit or two running through the underbrush. The kobolds hear the noise, and begin looking at the brush where the ghost sound had originated from. Meanwhile, the Beguiler casts Silent Image as well, showing some rabbits running out and then back into the brush again. The kobold guards walk to the brush, their slings ready to catch their lunch. Meanwhile, the Beguiler sneaks up behind the kobolds, and, catching them by surprise, casts Color Spray on them both. Both kobolds are knocked out, our sneaky Beguiler proceeds to coup-de-grace them both. She now stands there, deciding whether to cast Disguise Self and pretend to be a kobold (taking their spears and slings to help complete the disguise) or whether to just sneak in. Well, the Beguiler won this one, but she has expended 2 of her 5 level 1 spell slots. She's going to have to ration out her spells for the next 3 encounters for the day...
aotrscommander 03-16-07, 07:48 PM	Ok, here's how the fight vs 2 kobold warriors went. Two kobold warriors patrol near the entrance of the cave that serves as the base of a kobold scouting camp. Their Spears rest behind their backs as their hands carry slings, hoping to kill some small game to eat later on. It is noon, and their Light Sensitivity means they are dazzled and their spot, listen, and attack rolls have a -1 penalty. They talk about wanting to catch a rabbit, and the Beguiler (who can understand Kobold) hears that. The Beguiler sneaks nearby, keeping to the underbrush. She quietly casts Ghost Sound, simulating the sound of a a rabbit or two running through the underbrush. The kobolds hear the noise, and begin looking at the brush where the ghost sound had originated from. Meanwhile, the Beguiler casts Silent Image as well, showing some rabbits running out and then back into the brush again. The kobold guards walk to the brush, their slings ready to catch their lunch. Meanwhile, the Beguiler sneaks up behind the kobolds, and, catching them by surprise, casts Color Spray on them both. Both kobolds are knocked out, our sneaky Beguiler proceeds to coup-de-grace them both. She now stands there, deciding whether to cast Disguise Self and pretend to be a kobold (taking their spears and slings to help complete the disguise) or whether to just sneak in. Well, the Beguiler won this one, but she has expended 2 of her 5 level 1 spell slots. She's going to have to ration out her spells for the next 3 encounters for the day... That's more like it! 4 or 5 or those sort of encounters (assuming no XP from story awards or RPing) will safely see you to level 2 (seeing as how the bottom level XP 1-3 gains it very fast.) Not necessarily all on the same day, obviously! That's also the sort of intelligent tactics you Beguiler will need to use to survive on his own. I think we're getting there!
FrostHammer 03-16-07, 08:03 PM	Do you think those stats are adequate for a solo campaign? So you wouldn't recommend 4 encounters a day like what normally happens? *calculates exp* Let's see...how much exp do CR 1/4 creatures give anyways...
aotrscommander 03-16-07, 08:50 PM	Do you think those stats are adequate for a solo campaign? So you wouldn't recommend 4 encounters a day like what normally happens? *calculates exp* Let's see...how much exp do CR 1/4 creatures give anyways... First, the game design average is not necessarily what 'normally' happens. It is up to you, as DM to decide what pace to set your adventure. My groups, for example, tend to have fewer, more explosive encounters, balanced out by generally better stats and the fact we are just crazy like that. The stats are fine; by comparison, the new (6th level) party I will be running at Easter was built on a point-for-point buy on 30 points, starting at 8; the comparitive stats of the human sorcerer on the same build was 8, 14, 12, 14, 12, 18. This is averagely typical of our group's power level. Other groups may use 25-32 point buy, so again it's what level you feel comfortable with. With a single character, I'd err more on the generou side t start with, but like evrything esle, after you've DMed a few times, you'll find you own happy medium. My only comment would be that 18 should be the normal maximum for a human - however, again, in this specific instance, as you are dealing with an individual character, not a party, you don't need to adhere as strictly to the rules, as the character will need all the help they can get! By mid-to-late level, a +1 or two here and there generally won't make a lot of difference in the end anyway.
Drausktanchache 03-16-07, 09:19 PM	its the DMs job description to tailor encounters to the PCs, most pre-generated adventures still need to be tailored, because say if your party lacks a rouge, (no player to play one), then you remove some traps, and place in something else just as challenging, each adventure, even if it is the same, should be completely different...well, to the extent that it doesn't change the ultimate goal. WOOT!!!!!!! 100th post!!!!!!!
Kradlo 03-16-07, 09:37 PM	A poll: Should a DM carefully study the capabilities of her group and tweak encounters and puzzles accordingly, and generally steering the adventure in ways that can let all the contribute sometimes? Or should a DM stick with the pre-planned/pre-supplied encounters come high waters and mag 8 earthquakes, placing the onus on the adventurers to get pas a problem. Why? Would your answer be any different if it were a Solo campaign? As a GM, I tend to be flexible, and try to tailor the adventures for the party I have. Some of the encounters are ideal opportunities for the players to use their feats, skills, special abilities, etc. A good example is sending mooks (generic low level flunkies) against the barbarian with Cleave. I also will look for Flaws my players have taken, and make sure that they occasionally face situations where their flaws cause them consternation. TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. A good player looks on both of these as increased face time, which is good. The trick is to vary things from time to time. The rogue should occasionally face undead or constructs, or other creatures immune to sneak attack, but this should not be the constant theme. The rogue's sneak attack is a major feature of the class, and he should get the opportunity to use it. It's more difficult to adapt the game to the players when running a BYOC (Bring Your Own Character) convention game, because you have to set everything up in advance, and you never know what you'll get for a group. In that case, the GM might have to stick to his plan, and let the chips fall where they may.
Kradlo 03-16-07, 09:40 PM	But how would I throw a -3 EL at my level 1 caster? Go with 1/3 CR instead? And at some point it just gets ridiculous becuase enemies only get so weak. What, should the squishy types fight housecats for exp? I mean, those can't kill anyone, right? Hey, read the thread on Cat vs. Commoner. It's an eye opener! :D
Drausktanchache 03-16-07, 09:48 PM	And at some point it just gets ridiculous becuase enemies only get so weak. What, should the squishy types fight housecats for exp? I mean, those can't kill anyone, right? My housecats are lvl 20th monks that have been hit with a polymorph any object, others are jsut regular housecats....keep stupid kills from entering the game...
FrostHammer 03-16-07, 09:50 PM	1) Should I be worried that there's an actual thread called "Cat vs. Commoner"? 2) Link to the thread please?
Sereno 03-19-07, 11:01 AM	I agree, bot the thing is, this Beguiler has no ranks in Spot and Listen (which may be a bad idea), and no matter how she is diplomatic, *eventually* she'll haveto face combat right? Well, yeah, having NO ranks in Spot and Listen is not not a really good idea, especially in a solo campaign. And, you're right, eventually she will get into combat. However, if the beguiler is smart, combat will never be "you're standing 30' away from the orc warrior ... roll initiative!" She should be looking for every possible element to better her chances; looking for high ground, cover, escape routes, etc. Charming/hiring a couple of warrior-types is also a good idea. Basically, all "fragile" classes need to be *very* careful about how they engage in combat ... making sure to do it on their own terms.