Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Varlis 12-30-05, 03:51 PM	Well, it's one hour to game time and I have a quick question on ruling; if anyone can offer a quick answer, I'd be much obliged! In our last session, the party rogue unlocked a couple of fairly easy locks, DC 20 or 25, with no traps on the door and no enemies in the room (nor treasure, simply an empty room in an abandoned tower that had been locked years ago). The party muscle had busted open several doors as well, same situation. At the end, the party rogue says, "By the way, did you include exp for the doors I unlocked?" My expression was incredulous! Over perhaps the nine or so locked doors, I believe one or two were trapped, and so I gladly awarded experience for those. However, there was no challenge in the locked doors without the traps. There was no danger, no race against time (they're low level yet, poor souls), no objective behind the door. Is this to say that if someone locks a door and picks it or smashes it open, they should get exp? I don't believe so, I just wanted to see if I could garner any support before 5:00 PM EST. If anyone can help, a hundred helpings of thanks! ~V
Board_Rider 12-30-05, 03:55 PM	I don't have my books with me at the moment but I would say that, by the rules, nothing says that they gain XP for opening locks. Moreso if there is no immediate threat. I suppose you could offer XP as an ad hoc award for the first lock only. If the DCs remain the same for every lock thereafter then give no XP. I can only bolster this argument by writing that the "Shackled City" adventure path does something similar to this with the traps that are encountered. I hope that helps.
Abulafia 12-30-05, 03:58 PM	No XP. A slippery slope here -- today your players ask for XP for a no-CR open lock check, tomorrow it's XP for a successful spot check, next week it's XP for keeping the dice on the table and not eating all the pizza.
Board_Rider 12-30-05, 03:59 PM	No XP. A slippery slope here -- today your players ask for XP for a no-CR open lock check, tomorrow it's XP for a successful spot check, next week it's XP for keeping the dice on the table and not eating all the pizza. Or they visit every locksmith in every town that they visit!
Cathon 12-30-05, 04:00 PM	Probably used to playing some computer game or something. No experience from opening a locked door unless it is part of some other xp, like opening it to escape the poison gas in the room (trap XP) or if it part of defeating some opponent. But opening a lock is its own reward. And before they ask, tell them they also don't get experience from making a spot check, crafting a dagger or correctly identifying a wolf with knowledge, nature. You could also give them the option of losing half their max hit points if they fail to make an open lock check, I'd give them XP then, but it might be a little hard to explain why.
imperialjunkie 12-30-05, 04:00 PM	It doesn't grant XP by the RAW. But put a trap on it and Bingo! You've got XP. But you're the DM, and if you want to give a special award you can. Just keep it within reason.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 12-30-05, 04:10 PM	Make it an insanely difficult lock and toss in a race against time (like the gas trap mentioned above, or maybe a need to get through the door or be run down by a rolling boulder), and yes, they get XP. But giving XP for opening a lock that someone with half a rank in Open Lock and no Int mod could open? Ludicrous.
00_Whupass 12-30-05, 04:18 PM	The basic considerations in the awarding of XP are, was there a real threat to the characters, and was overcoming that threat a challenge. In the case of skill checks, this is generally not the case, but there are exceptions. In the example you stated I would not have awarded any experience. But were the room rapidly filling with water and the rogue had to swim down to the locked door, make his Open locks roll, while making a fort save to hold his breath long enough to get the lock open, that situation was clearly a danger to the party, and depending on how challenging the requisite swim and open lock checks were it could have been a challenge. Another common example is fighting on a narrow or slippery surface, requiring balance checks to aviod falling and taking damage, again there is a real threat to the characters, and the checks required pose a challenge. What about a less combat or dungeon orreinted situation: Characters on trial for murder trying to argue there case. If they fail the punishment is death (which is certainly a threat), and depending on the skill of the opposing litigator (I would use opposed diplomacy checks to determine who was the most influencial, modified for the initial opinion of the adjudicating body) this could also be a challenge, and therefore is worthy of experience. Always apply these two metrics, threat and challenge, as the litmus test for any situation to see if it is worth of experiance, and you'll never go wrong.
GeeBee 12-30-05, 04:30 PM	Yeah, that sounds a bit munchkin to me. YOU are the one to determine what an encounter is, but it generally involves anything that eats up party resources, and/or poses a penalty for failure. The reason for this is simple. If You can gain experience with no danger, why adenture at all? Heck, if you did that a good-sized house can provide all the locks a rogue would need to achieve 20th level. The only exception is *possibly* a training school, but even then a good school often provides real-life factors in the training - that's why cops and soldiers do live-fire excercises.
WayneTheGame 12-30-05, 04:37 PM	I would rule hell no, no XP for opening locked doors if there's no danger. However, I would be inclined to give a very small ad-hoc Xp award for using their skills. Say, 25 XP. Same like I would give to a Bard, for example, who used Diplomacy to good effect (not necessarily in combat).
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-30-05, 09:33 PM	I say: one XP per DC of a sucessful skill or ability check, no more than once per day for any skill, no points if they fail. 5 XP per spell level for preparing a spell. That takes care of the rogues and spellcasters. Fighters can go whistle dixie, or maybe get some XP for using their feats (only ones that qualify as fighter bonus feats). But then again, I'm not the DM who has to keep track of all these damn numbers.
StevenO 12-31-05, 04:01 PM	It may be late but I'll go against the grain and say YES, locked doors should be worth experience. A locked door is a challenge that needs to overcome to procede in an adventure just like an orc standing guard. However, the CR for a basic locked door will normally be VERY low. I think you could easily treat them as CR 1/4 or 1/3 which wouldn't grant many XP when you start dividing it up within the party. At higher levels that CR doesn't grant any XP. What is the risk of a locked door? Who ever locked it may come by and not like what you are doing making the lock an important factor in the encounter.
Gailbraithe 12-31-05, 04:26 PM	If your player is familliar with 2E, he may be thinking of the Rogue's XP bonus for successfully using a skill. This has been dropped from 3/3.5
benmoule101 12-31-05, 05:16 PM	It may be late but I'll go against the grain and say YES, locked doors should be worth experience. A locked door is a challenge that needs to overcome to procede in an adventure just like an orc standing guard. However, the CR for a basic locked door will normally be VERY low. I think you could easily treat them as CR 1/4 or 1/3 which wouldn't grant many XP when you start dividing it up within the party. At higher levels that CR doesn't grant any XP. What is the risk of a locked door? Who ever locked it may come by and not like what you are doing making the lock an important factor in the encounter. I agree entirely, perhaps a compromise would be to award exp for particularly difficult or crucial locks, or ones with additional complications. What if the door was the only root to free, or the rogue having to open the door, while the party holds off a particularly challenging opponent... I would be inclined to award exp in those types of situations... Ben
Always-Late 12-31-05, 07:14 PM	I mantain that a locked door is easier to bypass than a kobold. Because even a kobold, at it's awesome CR 1/6, can open a locked door with a sledgehammer.
MarkB 12-31-05, 07:47 PM	Do you give out story XP awards for successful completion of quests etc.? If so, just tell your players that this award includes the XP for the adventure's various non-threatening challenges such as locked doors. If not, tell them tough luck: they earn XP by overcoming challenges that involve risk, not by exercising their skills - or their muscles. They were rewarded for opening those locked doors by being able to progress through them to face new monsters and harvest their XP.
General_Ridley 12-31-05, 07:49 PM	I mantain that a locked door is easier to bypass than a kobold. Because even a kobold, at it's awesome CR 1/6, can open a locked door with a sledgehammer. Kobold CR is 1/4. but yeah, even a kobold could beat a locked door.
StevenO 12-31-05, 11:38 PM	Even with a sledgehammer (what's the damage d8 or d10? small sized remember) a Kobold would find a locked door very challenging. A CR 1/4 Kobold may be a little more dangerous but is no more challenging than a DC 25 lock. If given 20 rounds both would fall just as easily. You also need several encounters at the CR to even make the XP table for a level 1 party. Opening a Lock is just like using Diplomacy or Gather Information to get through an encounter. If you want, include it as part of an overall story award that can cover little things like skills used. If you don't wish to consider a locked door even a minor challenge (which it may not be at higher levels) I'd suggest leaving them alone and seeing how well your adventures turn out then.
ehrin 12-31-05, 11:42 PM	1 xp
Always-Late 01-01-06, 03:07 AM	Even with a sledgehammer (what's the damage d8 or d10? small sized remember) a Kobold would find a locked door very challenging. A CR 1/4 Kobold may be a little more dangerous but is no more challenging than a DC 25 lock. If given 20 rounds both would fall just as easily. You also need several encounters at the CR to even make the XP table for a level 1 party.Actually, the SRD states: Dungeon doors may be locked, trapped, reinforced, barred, magically sealed, or sometimes just stuck. All but the weakest characters can eventually knock down a door with a heavy tool such as a sledgehammer, and a number of spells and magic items give characters an easy way around a locked door.And in any case the kobold can at least force you to waste a CLW. The locked door is just... there.
StevenO 01-01-06, 01:22 PM	An enchanted metal door (hardness 20) and a fairly simple DC 25 lock would be a challenging encounter for a group of 1st level adventurers without a rogue or other lock pick. Increase the lock DC and it will be far harder to get through than your basic one arrow kobold. Just to be clear I'm not advocating making doors CR 1+ encounters except under the most unusual conditions. But for low level adventurers a locked door can be just as hard to get by as a mature dragon even if the door is a lot safer. I imagine many who argue against XP for locked doors also refuse XP for using Disarm Device to get by a trap and bluff or diplomacy to get past guards since they only involved skill use.
Yaeri 01-01-06, 01:40 PM	I always assign either a CR or plain XP to locks in the adventures I design. It's not the way it's supposed the be. A DM is allowed to give xp for story elements, but also for mundane things like opening locks, but is by no means obliged to do so. I've probably been influenced by baldur's gate 2, where the party got xp for picking locks. (And your player might have been too :D) When giving a lock a CR, I set it so, that opening about 5-6 locks on par with your level net you the same xp value as one combat encounter on party level. And if someone finds the key, bashes the door or unlocks it with a spell that too counts as beating the CR. The points aren't reserved for someone who uses lockpicks. A lock where there's no danger involved (not within an enemy base, no city guards around, no lethal radiation amounts, no danger of repercussion,...) don't deserve xp though.
Talonz 01-01-06, 07:32 PM	I always assign either a CR or plain XP to locks in the adventures I design. It's not the way it's supposed the be. A DM is allowed to give xp for story elements, but also for mundane things like opening locks, but is by no means obliged to do so. I can see story awards, but for 'mundane things'? What do you use as a basis for awarding xp to the rest of the players for utilizing their class features?
Heki_Danjo 01-01-06, 11:24 PM	In addition to the great rules advice already on the table, I'd like to offer this. Practice a poker face. After DMing for enough different groups, some with clearly munkintencies, when confronted with something like that I just say "Yes" and assign the experience I was going to give them in the first place. Dishonest? You betcha but frankly, shame on them for trying to "peek behind the curtain."
StevenO 01-02-06, 11:30 PM	I can see story awards, but for 'mundane things'? What do you use as a basis for awarding xp to the rest of the players for utilizing their class features? Rogues and others get by encounters using skills, one of their main class features. Warriors use strength and skill at arms to get by encounter. Spellcasters of course use spells to get ahead. Now spells may be the most powerful tool and are limited as such and force of arms usually involves some risk but that doesn't mean that ordinary skills aren't important to successfully advancing an adventures goals. Yaeri, except for first level, it should take more than 5-6 locks to earn a total XP award equal to a party level encounter.