Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spike_Fightwicky 03-27-06, 08:01 AM	Ok, this may sound complicated, but it's really not. What I'm wondering, is if the usual ECL equation works for multiple different CR creatures. Example: The party is composed of 4 EL 9 characters. So they should be facing EL 9 encounters. According to the chart in the DMG, 2 CR 7 monsters make an EL 9 encounter. Can I step that down again? Suppose I wanted to make the encounter 1x Hill Giant (CR 7) and 2x Winter Wolves (CR 5). 2x Winter Wolves are an EL 7 encounter. Does the encounter difficulty level still make sense as an EL 9 if I use these 2 equivalent EL 7 ecounters together, or will it make the encounter too easy or difficult? To wrap up, the question is: Are 1x Hill Giant (EL 7 encounter) and 2x Winter Wolves (EL 7 encounter) going to be an adequate EL 9 encounter? If not, will it be too easy or tough?
Gray Eminence 03-27-06, 08:31 AM	The party is composed of 4 EL 9 characters. So they should be facing EL 9 encounters. Well, I do not agree with this, an adventure should have approximately 30% of encounters that have an EL of the party level (challenging encounters). A small amount should have lower EL (easy encounters), and the rest should be higher ELs (difficult encounters). Also, some encounters should be "impossible" (EL +4 or more), and some should be "easy if handled properly", ie. encounters where you can considerably reduce the EL by creative role-playing. Also, do not forget that EL may increase or decrease for using non-typical scenarios. for example, if the monstres have cover, while the PCs have not, even a normally EL 9 encounter may prove to be harder than a standard EL 10 encounter. Otherwise, I think that you should use the rules for "mixed pairs". However, I think that the encounter you created is OK for a level 9 party.
olshanski_home 03-27-06, 09:01 AM	The CR/EL system is exactly as you have described (except your last sentance where you say an ogre is CR7)... probably a typo. 8 CR3 Ogres = EL9 4 CR5 Trolls = EL9 2 CR7 Hill Giants = EL9 4 CR3 ogres + 1 CR7 Hill Giant = EL9 2 CR3 Ogres + 1 CR5 troll + 1 CR7 Hill Giant = EL9. I somewhat disagree with GreyEmininence... regardless of what the book says: I use about 50% EL=average party level 10% = EL 1 lower than party level 20% = EL 1 higher than party level 15 % = EL 2 higher than party level 5 % = EL 3 higher than party level I almost NEVER use EL 4+ party level, because that pretty much promises multiple character deaths. I will on very rare occasions, and with plenty of advance warning, have an encounter with an obviously overpowering foe... this is the kind of foe the party will hear about in advance, have a chance to avoid, and yet be able to return 3-4 levels later to fight the foe.
DrMorganes 03-27-06, 09:12 AM	I like to use the Encounter Calculator (http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm) to help with this sort of stuff. Based on the data you provided, 1 hill giant and 2 winter wolves are indeed a CR9 encounter.
OravennasBrother 03-27-06, 11:10 AM	A lot of variation on encounter level can be appropriate for a given adventure. IF the PC's have ample time to rest between encounters, then a higher EL in each encounter is not too bad, but if they are giong to be kept on the run with a lot on encounters before they can rest, the EL's should be slightly lower. Hoving noted that, then the only closing note is that (ingeneral) if you have two unequal Cr's, and the lower CR is enough to add to the difficulty (a generic 1HD kobold won't make an encounted with an ancient red Wyrm sugnufucantly harder, but an Ogre will make an enounter wth a 3rd level wizard harder) then the EL should be the higher creature +1 (4th level for the 3rd level WIzard+a CR2 Ogre) Some judgement is required as RAW a commoner is his class level-1 and an EL. But which would you rather face a 20th level commoner, or an OLd Red Dragon (Both CR 19 RAW)
Man in the Funny Hat 03-28-06, 02:56 AM	To wrap up, the question is: Are 1x Hill Giant (EL 7 encounter) and 2x Winter Wolves (EL 7 encounter) going to be an adequate EL 9 encounter? If not, will it be too easy or tough?Yes, those are all adequate EL 9 encounters and should be roughly equivalent in challenge. Whether it will actually be too easy or too tough cannot be answered. It depends on how aggressively you run the monsters, the tactics they use, the actual actions of the PC's, the equipment levels of the PC's, the possibility of a lot of good/bad die rolls from either you or the PC's, etc. Do remember though that an encounter with an EL equal to the average character level of the party is not an overly challenging encounter but one that is approximated to use up only 20% of their resources (spells, hit points, etc.) It's a fight, but highly unlikely to be one that the PC's can lose. * * * One other thing I wanted to mention: you should be careful of the abbreviations you're using to avoid confusion for both the people reading your posts and yourself, lest you ultimately fail to understand the differences. The PC's don't have an EL because THEY are not the encounter. Under 3.5 rules you don't need to find the average of their character levels as you did in 3.0 for purposes of determining XP because XP is calculated and handed out individually. It is used, though, for attempting to create predictably challenging encounters. Call it APL if you need an acronym - average party level. Other acronyms you want to be careful about how you're using them are: CR = challenge rating = a FIXED, UNCHANGING number that only applies to a single, individual monster. Unless you actually alter the monsters abilities CR never, ever goes up or down. ECL = effective character level = an adjusted value for a PC's character level based on the fact that his racial abilities and possibly other factors make him more powerful than just his character level would indicate for a PC. EL = encounter level = a value to compare to the average level of the PC's in the party to determine the level of challenge. Used for this comparison instead of CR when there is more than one monster or monsters of multiple CRs. It is a useful tool in designing encounters - but it is not going to tell the whole story about how monsters will stack up against the PC's because it only assumes very basic, baseline information about the PC's and other factors.
Arakim 03-28-06, 05:28 AM	One thing to remember: Using a group of smaller monsters vs on large bruiser opens your encounter to AOE inflation. It is amazing what a properly motivated Wizard can do with a group of lower level monsters.