Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forgedwar 09-11-06, 05:20 PM	I have recently just started a campaign, and it seems that my encounters are to asy. My first encounter was 11x wolves against a party of 7 Level 2 PC's. This one I realize was definetley too easy. The second encounter was 5 PC's at level 2 against 25x orcs, A orc chief ( I made stats) and 5x worgs. They had the help of like, 12 villagers that had 4x improvised weapons, 3x hunting bows, and the rest had spears. The PC's were 2x rogues, a Monk, and a druid. I thought this encounter would be very difficult, but they only lost 3x villagers, and none of them were hurt. They did have about 10x houses, and exploded a barrel of ale on the worgs and warlord, taking about half their hitpoints. So if someone can tell me whay this encounter was so easy, and how i could have made it more difficult without killing them, it would be appreciated.
KurenaiYami 09-11-06, 05:22 PM	One evil thing is normally harder to kill than a lot of wimpy things. Using hordes of stuff normally makes for easier encounters.
Alacar_Deathstone 09-11-06, 05:43 PM	One evil thing is normally harder to kill than a lot of wimpy things. Using hordes of stuff normally makes for easier encounters. Exactly. If you find they are mowing through your encounters, use some monsters with some class levels, or just go ahead and throw a high CR monster at them. Like Kurenai said, one tough monster is a MUCH harder challenge than a horde of weak enemies. Heck, maybe even two tough monsters :cool: In my games, I'm sort of a vicious DM. Every combat encounter my parties have is a challenge, I try to never throw them into an easy-win situation. If it's better for the story for them to romp and stomp through a horde of goblins, then by all means, let them. But I find that more dramatic/climactic encounters are more memorable, and in gameplay terms provide more XP and "loot".
solbergb 09-11-06, 05:50 PM	Also, the game is balanced around a 4PC party. A 7PC party should be at *least* fighting 1EL higher than normal, and probably 2 EL's higher. 7 PC's plus a dozen minions that are only CR2 weaker than the PC's...yeah even more. There will come a time when a dozen villagers has no meaningful impact on the PC's except to force them to rescue innocents. Level 2 is not that time. So ditch the NPC allies, just use the 7 PC's. You probably don't want to do a single opponent scaled 2 EL's higher than normal just from the PC numbers. Instead pick normal "level 2" challenges and double the numbers. (eg, if one displacer beast is a good challenge for four L2 Pc's, two might be good for 7). If you want a mob scene (warriors+leader, like the orcs) you need to add fewer warriors and more class leveled "sergeants". 25 orcs and a chief isn't as hard as 8 orcs plus a priest of gruumsh, a shaman (wizard), a champion (fighter or barbairan) and the chief. With that kind of mix the warriors interfere with party movement and access to the "dangerous" opponents and are a serious threat to "squishy" PC's (low AC/hitpoint) but you've got something to do vs the high AC/hitpoint PC's (will save spells, touch attacks, fighters who can hit their AC, etc).
WCH 09-11-06, 05:53 PM	Note that you shouldn't have 99% of the orcs be lvl 1 warriors as printed in the MM. In reality, it should be more like 50%. Think of a band of orcs as a group of adventurers. If they're warriors, not fighters or barbarians, that means that their training has really sucked and they probably didn't dedicate themselves completely to it. If they're lvl 1, that means that they basically have almost no experience at all -- that is, this is their first time out and they have no idea what they're doing. My general rule for any given population is that the rate of finding each successive level goes down by half for each level it goes up. So, there are twice as many first levels as second, twice as many second levels as third, etc. That's for the general population, meaning it includes the commoners, experts, aristocrats, etc. Certain groups within said population will have higher concentrations from one area of the spectrum, of course. For instance, an "elite fighting squad" will likely have the highest level combatants that the population has to offer, whereas a boring and menial job will be taken up almost exclusively by newbies. Also remember that each individual NPC has his own individual stats. That is, if you were to organically make every NPC in your world (which is the ideal but is impossible), you'd roll 3d6 organic for each of them. The stats printed in the book are averages -- the population should include both those who are below average and those who are above average. However, since those below average tend to die off early, the higher level they are, the more above average they should be. That's where you start using point buy to set their skill level.
Sildatorak 09-11-06, 06:45 PM	One evil thing is normally harder to kill than a lot of wimpy things. Using hordes of stuff normally makes for easier encounters. Be careful when using this against your party. With 7 PC's there is a fine line between an individual enemy that will simply get ganged up on and one that is impossible to defeat. Since you basically have twice as many PC's as "normal" (the CR/EL system assumes 4 PC's), your best bet is to make encounters that would be challenging for 4 PC's and then double the number of foes. That said, don't be dismayed if your PC's are fighting through encounters with apparent ease. A party should be able to handle four encounters with encounter level equal to their party level and still have enough juice left to maybe take one more encounter. If you prefer to run fewer but more challenging fights, try to throw 2 encounters that are 2 levels above the party (well, 2 levels above the party leve, then double the creatures to account for your large group).
Endarire 09-11-06, 07:47 PM	You also need to get a feel for when the PCs have had enough. If it seems like they're going strong, perhaps surprise them with another wolf. If they have wands or other charged items, persuade them to use them, even if out of battle. -EE
Piggyfreak6 09-11-06, 09:36 PM	If you ever think it's going to be too hard, It usually isn't. If you think it will be too easy, I will be, by alot. So always go really really big and never back down. Being a DM is not about being there friend, it's about being there enemy. Remember, Live and Let die. If they die, hand them 4d6 and tell them to start rolling. :smirk: :smirk: :smirk:
Roivas 09-11-06, 10:35 PM	As a player, and as a GM I've always found my players have a tougher time with groups of easy monsters rather than one really tough one. This isn't always the case, but just today one of players told me any monster I make personally seems to be about 3 CRs higher than what the book states, even though i actually change very little. So i guess I have the opposite problem, but a good challenge for a low level party like yours would be something incorporeal, try an Allip. Also undead are harder in general without a cleric, so consider them all viable challenges for your PCs.
Feriin 09-11-06, 10:42 PM	They did have about 10x houses, and exploded a barrel of ale on the worgs and warlord, taking about half their hitpoints . How the hell do you Explode a Barrel of Ale, if I am not mistaken Ale is about 11% alcohol by volume. You need atleast 50% alcohol by volume to catch the stuff on fire, let alone explode it. The only way they could have done this is if they strapped dynamite to the barrel.
KurenaiYami 09-11-06, 11:34 PM	How the hell do you Explode a Barrel of Ale, if I am not mistaken Ale is about 11% alcohol by volume. You need atleast 50% alcohol by volume to catch the stuff on fire, let alone explode it. The only way they could have done this is if they strapped dynamite to the barrel. It was Dwarven Ale. 150% Alcohal. Screw physical possibilities.
SnowSage 09-12-06, 07:18 AM	As a DM I typically prefer to send them against things far beyond their ECL. Then again, my lowest level campain started at seventh, so it's different circumstances. However, last time my group got togeather {the weekend before labor day. we take hollidays off and alternate by week with a friend's game.} four level 10s defeated a group of 6x Orc Barbarions level six using the Elite Array {CR 12 if you use the encounter numbers table in the DMs guide} and a single level 13 Orc barbarion using the Elite Array as well {a CR of 13 himself.
Feriin 09-12-06, 08:14 AM	It was Dwarven Ale. 150% Alcohal. Screw physical possibilities. If Dwarven Ale really had that much alcohol per volume, there would be alot of dead dwarves.
Borne Of Hate 09-12-06, 12:17 PM	It was Dwarven Ale. 150% Alcohal. Screw physical possibilities. Wow, so my question is how is ANYTHING 150% of ANYTHING? I hope you are joking
Feriin 09-12-06, 12:25 PM	Wow, so my question is how is ANYTHING 150% of ANYTHING? I hope you are joking Maybe he was thinking 150 Proof when he wrote that.
Kradlo 09-12-06, 12:33 PM	My advice is alway to begin conservatively. If your first encounters are not strong enough to challenge the party, don't worry about it. You can always buff up the next encounter a bit, until you have a good threat level for the party. Make sure to take into account dice luck. If you had a streak of low rolls and your critters got killed, that doesn't necessarily mean the encounter was too weak. Sometimes a strong encounter gets unlucky, and a weak creature gets lucky. I just ran a game with level 1 PCs entering a cavern. They encountered a horde of 11 fiendish dire rats (CR 1/3 each). The hungry rats surged foward to attack, but the space didn't allow more than one or two of them to attack the half-orc barbarian who was in the narrow entrance way. He retreated to the mouth of the cavern, which allowed all four to participate. The rats came forward, but only two or three could attack at a time. The PCs were killing rats left and right, but it was the rat that got an instant kill on the Dwarf fighter that put the fear into them (20 - 20 - 19 = dead Dwarf). I think my encounters have been tough, but not too tough. I want a challenge, not a TPK. Keep making little adjustments until you have the right feel for what to throw at them. A party of 7 will be tougher than a party of 4, with more actions per round. Take that into consideration when setting up encounters. Try some ambushes, and use terrain to your monster's advantage.
Borne Of Hate 09-12-06, 12:50 PM	My advice is alway to begin conservatively. If your first encounters are not strong enough to challenge the party, don't worry about it. You can always buff up the next encounter a bit, until you have a good threat level for the party. Make sure to take into account dice luck. If you had a streak of low rolls and your critters got killed, that doesn't necessarily mean the encounter was too weak. Sometimes a strong encounter gets unlucky, and a weak creature gets lucky. I just ran a game with level 1 PCs entering a cavern. They encountered a horde of 11 fiendish dire rats (CR 1/3 each). The hungry rats surged foward to attack, but the space didn't allow more than one or two of them to attack the half-orc barbarian who was in the narrow entrance way. He retreated to the mouth of the cavern, which allowed all four to participate. The rats came forward, but only two or three could attack at a time. The PCs were killing rats left and right, but it was the rat that got an instant kill on the Dwarf fighter that put the fear into them (20 - 20 - 19 = dead Dwarf). I think my encounters have been tough, but not too tough. I want a challenge, not a TPK. Keep making little adjustments until you have the right feel for what to throw at them. A party of 7 will be tougher than a party of 4, with more actions per round. Take that into consideration when setting up encounters. Try some ambushes, and use terrain to your monster's advantage. Heed this^^^^^
solbergb 09-12-06, 01:25 PM	Stay away from "instakill" rules (like multiple confirming a crit being instant death). A dire rat can only do 8points of damage, max, on a crit. If you put "critical success" rules beyond the basic crit threat on 20, auto miss on 1, it disproportionately affects the player characters. They are attacked a LOT more often in their career than any NPC, and the consequences are larger. A 1 in 100 chance will come up every few adventures.
Borne Of Hate 09-12-06, 01:31 PM	Stay away from "instakill" rules (like multiple confirming a crit being instant death). A dire rat can only do 8points of damage, max, on a crit. If you put "critical success" rules beyond the basic crit threat on 20, auto miss on 1, it disproportionately affects the player characters. They are attacked a LOT more often in their career than any NPC, and the consequences are larger. A 1 in 100 chance will come up every few adventures. I place an 'increased multiplier' rule instead of instadeaths. It seems to run pretty well. "Whenever a natural 20 is followed by a natural 20 to confirm, the multiplier of the critical goes up by one. In the case of three consecutive twenties, the multiplier goes up by two, etc." I do run a very deadly game however in which the characters get 28 point buy and many monsters use the elite aray.
Sulaco 09-12-06, 01:52 PM	and exploded a barrel of ale on the worgs and warlord, taking about half their hitpoints. Wait...what? How does one explode a barrel of ale and in what possible manner - beyond drinking several gallons of it - could ale harm anyone? This needs some explanation.
Sulaco 09-12-06, 02:08 PM	Mybe he was thinking 150 Proof when wrote that. Then it wouldn't be ale anymore, it would be extremely potent whiskey.
punching bag 09-12-06, 02:38 PM	Wait...what? How does one explode a barrel of ale and in what possible manner - beyond drinking several gallons of it - could ale harm anyone? This needs some explanation. On one hand I'd have to commend the players for some "lateral thinking". On the other, a barrel of ale probably wouldn't even burn let alone explode. File this one under "fun wins over realism". To the original poster - check out this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a on the D&D website. It's got some guildelines for different encounter types. It seems like you are throwing too many mobs of weak enemies at your players. Mix it up a little bit with some boss monsters, lieutenants and weak creatures.
Kradlo 09-12-06, 03:15 PM	Stay away from "instakill" rules (like multiple confirming a crit being instant death). A dire rat can only do 8points of damage, max, on a crit. If you put "critical success" rules beyond the basic crit threat on 20, auto miss on 1, it disproportionately affects the player characters. They are attacked a LOT more often in their career than any NPC, and the consequences are larger. A 1 in 100 chance will come up every few adventures. The instant kill rule option from the DMG requires a natural 20, confirmed by a second natural 20, confirmed by a successful attack roll. The odds of that range from 421 to 1 to 8000 to 1. In this case, the odds were 1143 to 1 against. This particular optional rule does add an element of danger to the game, but the rarity of its use keeps it from making the game significantly more lethal to the PCs. I also use action points and reserve points, to give the players an advantage in game play. I was talking with a friend about the session. In the DMG, it suggests that an encounter should use up about 25% of the party's resources to fight it. Let's see, four characters in the party, the Dwarf dies, that's 25% right there. Not quite the way I'd envisioned it, but it worked out in the end. The Dwarf's brother has stepped in to take his place. We used the same character sheet, just changed the name, so that the game could continue without a delay while the player generated a new character from scratch. All the players have had fun in the game so far, including the young player of the Dwarf fighter. This crowd has seen and used the instant kill rule in another GM's game, and they've liked it. Again, it isn't likely to come up very often, so I don't think it's going to cause a problem in the game.
Dragon Eye 09-12-06, 03:18 PM	Wow, so my question is how is ANYTHING 150% of ANYTHING? I hope you are joking Mybe he was thinking 150 Proof when wrote that. Come on guys. :rolleyes: Did you not read the his whole comment. It was Dwarven Ale. 150% Alcohal. Screw physical possibilities. Emphasis added.
Borne Of Hate 09-12-06, 03:20 PM	Come on guys. :rolleyes: Did you not read the his whole comment. Emphasis added. OH.... right... sarcasm i remember that.:D
Dowjin 09-12-06, 03:56 PM	Dwarven Ale - Spontaneous combustion -solved-. OP - Yes, your encounters were too easy. I'd suggest slowly scaling up the CR between each encounter untill the PCs start to feel the pressure. Try more creatures, try extra levels for the monsters, try TACTICS. Its obvious (however you rule 0'ed an exploding barrel of ale; I get wacky myself, sometimes) that your pcs have good strategy/cooperation, have the monsters use good tactics as well. --- As for how a rat can achieve an instant kill "As the furry creature scrambles up your leg, teeth gnashing, you suddenly realize you didn't fully tighten your codpiece." I use instant kill rules, on that rolling a critical while confirming one, gives you a THIRD roll, the only purpose of which is that if you roll a 20, you kill them. Things not subject to criticals are automatically safe from this rule, so it balances itself. With armor fortification, and etc, trivial deaths are less possible the less trivial your character becomes.
Feriin 09-12-06, 04:22 PM	Then it wouldn't be ale anymore, it would be extremely potent whiskey. Wouldn't it be something more akin to Yagermiester(sp)?
cheezgrater 09-12-06, 05:09 PM	Based on your other posts, I would say that your problem stems more from: *The DM not having a complete understanding of the rules involved in a given encounter, and thus not being able to fully utilizing the tactics and abilities available to the NPC *The DM not having a complete understanding of the rules involved in a given encounter, and thus being forced to invent rules off-the-cuff *A player using a non-Wizards class, one which is unbalanced for play in an otherwise core game *A player attempting to miquote, abuse, and flat out break the rules of the game in order tocome out on top than it does poor encounter design. Some tips: When you have a large number of creatures vs. a smaller number of players, make use of flanking, the aid another action, etc. Know the major feats your players have and what combat rules or mechanics they affect (You don't necessarily need to know the save DC of every spell they can cast, but if the monk has Improved Trip or Improved Grapple you should know the Trip or Grapple rules backwards and forwards. *One way to help yourself with this is to do what I (And most other DM's that I know) do. Require each player to furnish you with a copy of their character sheet. When they update their sheet, they must provide you with a new copy. If there is ever a question over what feats a character has, etc. the copy held by the DM is authoratative ("But I decided I wanted Two Weapon Fighting instead of Skill Focus Craft CrappyMetagamedExcuse" "Not according to your character sheet, you didn't). This can also help with encounter design since you have a reference available for every saving throw, AC, and HP total of the party. When you put a monster into an encounter, study its stat block until your eyes bleed. Monsters that do not use every option available to them are significantly weaker than their CR, since that number is based on ALL of their abilities. For example, if you put a dragon against the party and neglect its spell resistance, you have nerfed the encounter so that it is no longer as powerful as its CR would indicate. If you also forget that it has sorcerer spells and would likely have time to buff itself, you have nerfed it even farther. (Remember that creatures (especially intelligent ones) exist before the encounter begins and may take steps to prepare themselves). Forgetting monster abilities can change an EL 18 encounter to an EL 8. If your encounters are *Still* being breezed by the PCs, then you should consider bumping up the encounter levels some. First I would suggest playing the encounters up to their actual EL, then raising that EL if it is still necessary.
Sulaco 09-12-06, 05:25 PM	Wouldn't it be something more akin to Yagermiester(sp)? Jagermesiter isn't made from barley, beer and whiskey are.
KurenaiYami 09-12-06, 06:35 PM	Come on guys. :rolleyes: Did you not read the his whole comment. Thank Pelor somebody actually read it all.
Sulaco 09-13-06, 11:49 AM	Thank Pelor somebody actually read it all. We read it, it just made no sense.
Yaeri 09-13-06, 12:15 PM	Kurenaiyami, don't let it bother you. I understood your joke and I thought it was funny. ;)
Sulaco 09-13-06, 01:08 PM	Kurenaiyami, don't let it bother you. I understood your joke and I thought it was funny. ;) I understood the joke, too. It still wasn't funny.
Feriin 09-13-06, 01:09 PM	Jagermesiter isn't made from barley, beer and whiskey are. Good point. I was referring to the alcohol content only, not the actual process to make it.
cmnossaw 09-13-06, 01:14 PM	You could of course, keep the swarms of monsters, and add PC levels to them. I did this with the old (OLD) first edition Keep on The Borderlands module, in 3.5 they players leveld to fast so ofcourse, kobalds dont mean jack to them. but add some fighter levels some tactics and a mean level 7 cleric leader = good long fight!
On_the_wings_of_TPK 09-13-06, 01:42 PM	At this point I am going to recomend that you read, or reread the encounter section in the DMG. (Page 48) Actually on that note, if you haven't read the DMG yet, I recomend doing so. It will read like a stereo manual but there are many things in there that will help you. Particualrily the first 3-4 chapters. Also if you can find Robins rules of Good Gaming is a must read for an DM, novic or master. If you can finding an experienced DM to ask advice, and generally be a mentor towards you would help a lot as well. just to note 25 orcs, as is out the MM1 is an EL 9, maybe subtract one EL for the villiagers and you have an EL 8. It should have earned each party member 960 xp each. Well technically it should have sluaghtered them mercilessly. Maybe it isn't the encounters themselves, but the tactics involved?