Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkflameX 04-22-07, 04:02 PM	well my party has a sorceress who found a way to get past a lot of traps. i admit it is real funny and all but is it allowed. basically she casts the mount spell and sends a horse forward to activate every trap it possibly can. so is it allowed to have a horse get killed every time they think there is a trap?
Archangel62 04-22-07, 04:12 PM	well my party has a sorceress who found a way to get past a lot of traps. i admit it is real funny and all but is it allowed. basically she casts the mount spell and sends a horse forward to activate every trap it possibly can. so is it allowed to have a horse get killed every time they think there is a trap? Sure, but it's horiffically inefficient since they are likely to run out of spells REALLY fast that way.
PwnageLlama 04-22-07, 04:43 PM	That will kill lots of horses. Alot more expensive then wands of cure light wounds.
GrimshofHighSorcery 04-22-07, 04:45 PM	lol I had a player in my Castle Greyhawk do that with traps...I thought it was brilliant, in fact I awarded extra XP to them. Although that character and another 5 of the 8 met an unfortunate end when that method failed to work. But I would say that is an excellent use, but they will run out of spells quickly.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-22-07, 04:47 PM	Very expensive. Still, you should reward your players for creativity. This is nothing summon monster I can't do if you know where the traps are. There are even lower-level spells that let you flat-out detect traps.
was_fired 04-22-07, 04:50 PM	Also it doesn't work on most magical traps as they automatically reset. At least it will tell them about it though when the horse is reduced to cinders.
JerBar 04-22-07, 04:50 PM	I've heard much worse then that, but sure, why not let that happen. You can bet it will stop when it triggers the rolling boulder that follows the mount down the hallway, possably over the PCs who just sent it and are now standing under the shute. There are lots of traps that would not be triggered in this way as well. Anything that has a magical trigger set to "when a human walks down this hall" or, "when two creatures are within five feet of this spot".
Kouk 04-22-07, 04:53 PM	Strictly by the spell though, it seems the spell only creates a riding animal and hence the name. You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle. Depending on whether you feel like allowing it or not, the mount would be something you have to ride on, and not a normal animal you can tell to do things. If you assume it is a normal animal, then who is using Handle Animal to "Push" the horse to wander forwards into the darkness? The spell only indicates it is trained to be a mount. With a duration of 2 hours/level it is a very cheap replacement for a rogue if you allow it to be used as trapfodder.
DarkflameX 04-22-07, 05:01 PM	i wanna allow it. i just find it so funny watching 6 horses get killed per session. i think that is the only use for a wand of mount or something. either way i was just wondering if it was allowed, i know there are ways around it :shifty:
JerBar 04-22-07, 05:06 PM	Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was trying to find ways around it. I was just having a laugh at the thought of my players doing something like that.
PhaedrusXY 04-22-07, 05:07 PM	either way i was just wondering if it was allowedThis question doesn't even make sense. You're starting with the wrong assumptions by even asking it. This isn't a computer game. You are the DM. YOU decide whether something is "allowed". You could certainly ask for our opinions on whether you should allow it or not, though. In general, unless it somehow ruins the fun of the game, I think creative solutions should be rewarded.
Escef 04-22-07, 05:20 PM	Just remember to put a few traps in that can't be found this way. A trap when a door or chest is opened, one in the middle of a combat area, ones that trigger only to humanoids, etc.
trapspringer 04-22-07, 05:28 PM	The short answer to your question is, "Yes, it is allowed, but design traps that will foil this method on occasion*." *occasion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/occasion)
JulesCARV 04-22-07, 05:32 PM	Well, it's of some utility. It's useful if you're in an "abandoned crypt" type dungeon, where inhabitants have just settled in due to abandonment, and traps are just left-over attempt to kill any would-be looters. Of course, if you're trying to infiltrate, say, an enemy complex, then it's quite likely that some of the traps would be alarms. Having a summoned mount set of an alarm which sends guards running in your direction isn't any better than having you do it yourself. For the "abandoned crypt" type dungeon, though, it's entirely valid and quite useful.
Mock26 04-22-07, 06:07 PM	Strictly by the spell though, it seems the spell only creates a riding animal and hence the name. You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle. Depending on whether you feel like allowing it or not, the mount would be something you have to ride on, and not a normal animal you can tell to do things. Strictly by the spell, there is no definition of "mount" in the RAW. To me a mount, such as a horse or a mule or a dog, is something that you can ride, not something that you have to ride. If you opt to take the strict definition of the spell then Mount has some serious limitations. What happens when you get off the mount? Does the spell terminate early and the mount disappears? Does the mount stand still and refuse to move? Or, what happens when you are going through terrain that is too rough to ride through? Would you be allowed to walk your mount through? If you take a strict interpretation of the spell, then you wouldn't be able to walk your mount through. -------------------- Additionally, how is this expensive? The material component for the spell is horse hair, which for all intents and purposes, doesn't cost anything.
trapspringer 04-22-07, 06:54 PM	It is costly in that the party caster must expend one of his daily alotment of spells. Given that he has a limited (and at low levels that should be read as "very limited") supply of spells, you are consuming a considerable chunk of your daily resources to bypass one measly dart trap. By comparison you could cast sleep and eliminate a single level four fighter capable of inflicting vastly greater damage than what ever trap you "disable."
Senevri 04-22-07, 06:59 PM	*shrug* I prefer summon monster for minesweeping.... Alas, poor badger....
AntiDjinn 04-22-07, 07:41 PM	A 1 point astral construct is also good for this, and has the added advantage of not actually killing anything other than a figment of your imagination. Note that trap designers may be aware of tactics like this. A trap does not always target the space where its trigger is located. Also, some traps are designed to take out large groups (such as a squad of invading soldiers or a party of dungeon delvers). So a trigger at the end of a hall may turn the entire hall into a fiery death trap or hail of arrows. Some traps are designed to cut off retreat so the horse might trip a trigger that drops a deadfall in the room before -- right where the party is standing watching their minesweeper's progress. My group ran into a wizard who had taken precautions against being taken hostage in a home invasion; his house was full of traps in which the trigger space was the only safe spot and anyone else in the room was targeted. Imagine your party being wiped out by sprays of poison needles leaving only an unharmed pony doing a victory dance.
celtredleg 04-22-07, 08:13 PM	I have used summon monster for this since 1st ed. Loved the old wand of conjuration. Much more useful than the curent versions. And yes I allow this sort of thing. It woiuld be more hipcritical than I care to be to use it as a player and not allow it as a DM.
Vaelan 04-22-07, 09:22 PM	Some traps automatically reset. No number of horses will get you through one of those.
jeffseadot 04-22-07, 09:29 PM	Some traps automatically reset. No number of horses will get you through one of those. Not until your pile of dead horses gets you up and over the trap... Man, is there any problem in the world that *can't* be solved with a pile of dead horses?
Mock26 04-22-07, 09:53 PM	It is costly in that the party caster must expend one of his daily alotment of spells. Given that he has a limited (and at low levels that should be read as "very limited") supply of spells, you are consuming a considerable chunk of your daily resources to bypass one measly dart trap. By comparison you could cast sleep and eliminate a single level four fighter capable of inflicting vastly greater damage than what ever trap you "disable." Sometimes that is true. Sometimes it is not. Additionally, it depends on the circumstances. There is no proof that casting sleep on a 4th level fighter is a better use for a spell slot than a mount spell used to disarm a trap. If the trap is a single, non-poisoned dart trap that only causes 1d4 points of damage, then yes, your statement is true (but given the HD of a mount, it could absorb several such dart traps, not just one). If, however, the trap is a combination of a 100' deep pit and an acidic cloud to get those 10-30' beyond the opening of the pit, then your statement doesn't hold that much weight. For every instance that someone can come up with where an offensive mage spell (such as magic missile or sleep) would be better than a mount spell for triggering a trap there is an example where the mount spell would be better. What you said is like saying that fireball is a better spell than lightning bolt. Generally speaking, there is no proof to back this statement, nor is it even true. But, under some circumstances, fireball is better than lightning bolt, just as sometimes it isn't. So, depending on the circumstances, sleep might be a better spell to memorize than mount (such as in the lair of some orcs with virtually no traps). And, sometimes, mount is the better spell to have (such as in a heavily trapped tomb with tons of undead, which are immune to sleep). And, there are times when spider climb would be better than either of these. Given the unlimited number of situations that are out there, blanket statements that one spell is better than another are simply not true.
trapspringer 04-22-07, 09:54 PM	Summoning A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. Just for those of you saying it kills horses, or what ever.
Mock26 04-22-07, 10:00 PM	Man, is there any problem in the world that *can't* be solved with a pile of dead horses? What if your problem is a pile of dead horses? :D
Etarnon 04-22-07, 10:17 PM	I would think that the horses will get to be very expensive. Alignment shifts toward oh, neutral evil, and eventually the people that care about horses will hunt you down, and draw and quarter you (by horse, from each limb). all that stuff about make traps that are horse-proof.. okay, sure. But it's much more effective to have an in-game social response by members of polite society, or cavalrymen of the army. Seriously.
Mock26 04-22-07, 10:23 PM	I would think that the horses will get to be very expensive. Alignment shifts toward oh, neutral evil, and eventually the people that care about horses will hunt you down, and draw and quarter you (by horse, from each limb). all that stuff about make traps that are horse-proof.. okay, sure. But it's much more effective to have an in-game social response by members of polite society, or cavalrymen of the army. Seriously. Expensive how? If they are purchasing horses, then yes. But, the original post was about using the spell mount, which summons a mount. And, as trasspringer pointed out, the summoned mount doesn't really die when it is reduced to 0 hit points. Sure, one could argue that the summoned mount actually belongs to someone, but there is no proof of this. Additionally, given the wording of the spell, the summoned creature that is "killed" reforms within 24 hours and it can be summoned again. That would lead one to think that it really isn't a living creature from the material plane. So, probably to some this would mean no shift in alignment for using a summoned mount this way as it really doesn't die when used in this manner.
Nom 04-22-07, 10:35 PM	Note that 24 hours stipulation. You kill off a summon, then you can't get it back for another 24 hours. Though it's not really obvious how this works unless you're using the 'summon specific creatures' variant. I cast mount once. I cast it again. Then the first mount "dies". If I cast mount a third time, do I get the non-existent 1st mount or a new 3rd mount?
Galahdeon 04-22-07, 10:44 PM	i had one character a Dwarven sorcerer use control undead on a skelatal Chimera, after that he used it set off most the traps in a cave. i thought i was genius bonus XP for that and he could keep him for most the day, that was even better.
Mock26 04-22-07, 11:20 PM	Note that 24 hours stipulation. You kill off a summon, then you can't get it back for another 24 hours. Though it's not really obvious how this works unless you're using the 'summon specific creatures' variant. I cast mount once. I cast it again. Then the first mount "dies". If I cast mount a third time, do I get the non-existent 1st mount or a new 3rd mount? It seems to me that the 24-hour restriction applies only to situations where you are summoning a specific summoned creature, say, Bob the Warhorse. Of course, I think that this doesn't apply to the spell mount since the spell description does not state that you are summoning a specific creature. I think that in the example of the 24-hour restriction that they are talking of things such as figurines of wondrous power which are tied to a specific creature. And, your example has a flaw, because there is nothing to prevent you from summoning three mounts with three different spells. That would seem to indicate that the spell is not summoning specific mounts, because if you summon two, one is slain, and then try to summon a third wouldn't it simply summon a third, different horse, which it would do if you cast three mount spells to begin with? And if you are restricted by the 24-hour time limit doesn't that kind of sound like you can only summon one mount, not 2 or 3 or more?
DarkflameX 04-22-07, 11:50 PM	yea im not going to rule her not able to summon multiple horses. they arent specific horses. its just a horse. and even then mount allows you to summon a variety of things besides a horse (pony riding dog etc)
Dm_Farble 04-23-07, 12:07 AM	I have my druid do this with low level summon nature's ally all the time, as there is no rogue in our party and the dm has been known to put oodles of traps in. It works great for my druid because I can sacrifice a lvl 1 spell for a trap detector. =) I say reward them additional exp for sheer brilliance. Then throw them a trap that isnt triggered by animals. Or some such thing, you get the idea.
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 12:10 AM	I have my druid do this with low level summon nature's ally all the time, as there is no rogue in our party and the dm has been known to put oodles of traps in. It works great for my druid because I can sacrifice a lvl 1 spell for a trap detector. =) I say reward them additional exp for sheer brilliance. Then throw them a trap that isnt triggered by animals. Or some such thing, you get the idea. it seems kinda like i would be targeting her specifically making an animal proof trap. i dont want he feeling like her brilliant idea has gone to waste is all. however i am going to make them animal proof (humonoid only) just so they dont start relying on it.
Mock26 04-23-07, 12:11 AM	During one campaign, many years ago, the group purchased 50 sheep and herded the sheep in front of them as they explored the ancient tomb. Not only did they trigger some very deadly traps, but they were also quite tasty sauteed in olive oil with some garlic, onions, and spices.
jeffseadot 04-23-07, 12:14 AM	See, mock has the right idea: livestock are for eating. If your problem is a big pile of horse carcasses, turn it into the solution to another problem: world hunger. One horse could feed a family for days. If this party keeps going on dungeon crawls, there's no telling how many horses they could conjure up and sacrifice.
Mock26 04-23-07, 12:18 AM	it seems kinda like i would be targeting her specifically making an animal proof trap. i dont want he feeling like her brilliant idea has gone to waste is all. however i am going to make them animal proof (humonoid only) just so they dont start relying on it. Just remember that some traps cannot be triggered by a horse, such as a trapped rung of a ladder going up or down some shaft, or a small trapped hole through which you must put your hand and turn a lever, or a tunnel that is only 3' high, or magical traps that are triggered by a specific situation. However, anything that is pressure sensitive should not be made humanoid only, as to do so, from a realistic point of view, would not make much sense in a lot of situations and to do otherwise would require some sort of magic to determine the race of the potential triggerer. Additionally, rope bridges, chasms with ropes to swing across, vertical shafts with ladders, and a lot of other such things are features that not only defeat the whole summoned mount idea, but they are also features which, at least in my opinion, are included in nearly all of my dungeons because I like a lot of variety in my dungeons. And the best part is that if you put in a chasm that a horse can't cross who is to say why it was put in there? I'm sure the players won't think it is for punitive reasons, even if it is.
Mock26 04-23-07, 12:20 AM	See, mock has the right idea: livestock are for eating. If your problem is a big pile of horse carcasses, turn it into the solution to another problem: world hunger. One horse could feed a family for days. If this party keeps going on dungeon crawls, there's no telling how many horses they could conjure up and sacrifice. Nah, the solution to world hunger is to feed the hungry people the homeless and terminally ill people. Also, so long as it wasn't poisoned or coated in acid or squashed into a pancake, trap-killed livestock saves you the trouble of killing your dinner, and nice deep pits make great tenderizers and fire traps might actually also cook your dinner for you!
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 12:28 AM	Nah, the solution to world hunger is to feed the hungry people the homeless and terminally ill people. Also, so long as it wasn't poisoned or coated in acid or squashed into a pancake, trap-killed livestock saves you the trouble of killing your dinner, and nice deep pits make great tenderizers and fire traps might actually also cook your dinner for you! speaking of hunger and eating, has anyone ever tried fillet of tarrasque?
Vaelan 04-23-07, 12:45 AM	Not until your pile of dead horses gets you up and over the trap... Ceilings.
daggeroflath 04-23-07, 01:20 AM	That's the best use of the mount spell I've ever heard. Bravo players.
trapspringer 04-23-07, 01:39 AM	it seems kinda like i would be targeting her specifically making an animal proof trap. i dont want he feeling like her brilliant idea has gone to waste is all. however i am going to make them animal proof (humonoid only) just so they dont start relying on it. Don't negate an effective tactic every time. If it's effective because it is simply the right thing to do, then good for them. The point is a good 20-35% percent of traps will be completely immune to this kind of location, and another 15-20% will continue to function afterwards. Just be sure to mix it all up enough that this is the be-all end-all solution to traps.
Varia 04-23-07, 09:05 AM	Its allowed, although it might be a little rough on certain alignments. It shouldnt be something a lawful good character should be doing except in extreme need, forinstance. But apart from that, sure. Heck, I once had a group turn the Tomb of Horrors into a deep pit using golems, simulacrums (for more casting power), rock to muds, and beholders (for the disintegrates). Just because someone builds a trap doesnt mean someone else cant bypass it with brute force.
Varia 04-23-07, 09:06 AM	Its allowed, although it might be a little rough on certain alignments. It shouldnt be something a lawful good character should be doing except in extreme need, forinstance. But apart from that, sure. Heck, I once had a group turn the Tomb of Horrors into a deep pit using golems, simulacrums (for more casting power), rock to muds, and beholders (for the disintegrates). Just because someone builds a trap doesnt mean someone else cant bypass it with brute force. No trap can survive players with enough time on their hands without going to silly extremes to force them to face the trap. Thats why time limits are a good thing, when circumstances make them reasonable.
Nom 04-23-07, 10:50 AM	Its allowed, although it might be a little rough on certain alignments. It shouldnt be something a lawful good character should be doing except in extreme need, forinstance.Huh? Why is it more "following tradition" and "showing care for others" to ask a real person to risk themselves disarming a trap rather than sacrificing a little magic power on a temporary magical manifestation?
Castegyre 04-23-07, 11:30 AM	In a previous campaign we had a barbarian that was in the habbit of chucking recently defeated enemies down corridors and into doors to 'check for traps'. It didn't help very much, but it sure was funny to see him get all excited about throwing goblin corpses for distance.
Aggrenox 04-23-07, 01:07 PM	Isn't this what henchmen and Livestock are for anyway? Just kidding. Mount Conjuration (Summoning) Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One mount Duration: 2 hours/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle. Seems a viable option to me. I allways made the mount like a phantasm or what not that you couldn't do anything with other than ride, but thats my flavor, my games. It's up to you if the spell works like that or not.
LCD2YOU 04-23-07, 01:16 PM	Don't forget the traps that are designed to have the business end about 40' to 60' back where the party is hiding. Though my favorite was a Bard who had an object that warned him of imminent danger and protect him from all 1st to 3rd level spells. He'd walk up to the door, whatever, and "check for traps". Well one door he walked up to was a trap with a 20d6 3rd level fireball. Of course, he was immune, no danger to him. 4 of the other 7 party members died.
Soluphobe 04-23-07, 01:27 PM	Yes! A good use for a bag of tricks! As for the Mount spell, I always used it as a Cometfall clone. No SR, no Save, and it doesn't say the horse has to appear on land... Come to think of it, next game I'll send the PCs up against a wizard who has only prepared Mount spells. "Run! It's the hail of ponies!". The only problem with it is the range, but a few Potions of Celerity ought to solve that. If the players run into too many "designed to be triggered with a 10' pole" traps, they'll end up tying ropes around the donkey and pulling themselves out.
chuff80 04-23-07, 01:57 PM	You think the Mount thing is bad? I was running Dragon Mounatain, the old 2nd Edition adventure, converted for 3.5, and the cleric cast Wind Walk on the party...they bypassed the whole freaking adventure by ghosting up the chains that held up the gates and portcullises. Really annoying.
Pandaemoni 04-23-07, 02:07 PM	Just for those of you saying it kills horses, or what ever. It does make horses suffer though. Where are the Magical Animal Cruelty Police when you need them? :D
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 03:15 PM	i dont see why it would matter about alignment. i mean think about it. the spell is yours, it isnt a REAL horse and it comes back to you later. seems alright if you asked me.
darkneolink 04-23-07, 03:47 PM	It will be all fun and games till PETA kicks their asses n_nU
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 03:59 PM	It will be all fun and games till PETA kicks their asses n_nU that would be an interesting plot twist :evillaugh
^Graff_EpsilonIX 04-23-07, 04:04 PM	The answer to your question is the same answer to those who use a halfling on a ten foot pole as a trap disarming device.
itwasntme 04-23-07, 04:09 PM	well sure you can do that and this reminds me of one of my players just makeing a barbian take over the rouge slot this is how he disable most of the traps in the game "I Charge down the hallway and stop at the door waiting for my group to come what happins?" it worked wounders he was able to make most of the traps spring and hit his character who didnt realy care (He had ways of makeing it not care) sure it dosnt allways work but hell we all loved the guy sense in that game he speed up the game (The group was takeing 1 Hour in RL to search a 20by60 ft hallway you dount want to know what they did in rooms) so we all praised him and declared he gets true Reseration when we get it But ya its kinda like said halfling useing 10 ft pole it can happin hears something thats kinda funny at least in my mind A dwarf fighter's thief skills - Open Door: Boot. Pick Lock: Bash. Pick Pocket: Mug. Climb Walls: Rope. Hide in Shadows: No. Move Silently: As If. Find/Remove Traps: Ouch. it shows as you can see some realy basic ways on how to deal with something sure it dosnt allways work but hey its funny
Pandaemoni 04-23-07, 04:15 PM	it isnt a REAL horse and it comes back to you later. I think it is a real horse, it's summoned from elsewhere and returned there alive when the spell ends. The spell doesn't create the horse from scratch.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-23-07, 04:18 PM	I knida like the idea that every time you cast the spell it is the same horse and that even though the haze of his tiny half-mad horse mind he is cottoning on to what is happening. Eventually, the caster conjures the horse only to have it kick him to death and **** off into the wilderness somewhere. Let me put it to you this way: any time the PCs always use a certain option the odds are that said option is unbalanced.
calvinNhobbes 04-23-07, 04:28 PM	I think it is a real horse, it's summoned from elsewhere and returned there alive when the spell ends. The spell doesn't create the horse from scratch. I'm pretty sure it is not a real horse. That is the difference between a summoning spell and a calling spell.
Pandaemoni 04-23-07, 04:38 PM	I'm pretty sure it is not a real horse. That is the difference between a summoning spell and a calling spell. As I read the SRD, the difference is that a calling spell brings things from another plane (along with different mechanics when the creature dies and a few other mechanical differences): Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. .... Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. That suggests it's a real creature to me, and one that is unique and recallable.
Mock26 04-23-07, 04:44 PM	Do you have two very strong characters in your group? Have some extra rope lying around? Then, all you need is a corpse (monsters are best, but dead party members work, too). Tie the corpse to the rope, heave said corpse as far down the corridor as you can, drag said corpse back. Sure, it's not as effective as making your summoned mount, or your herd of sheep, or your DM's whiney annoying brother walk down the corridor, but it does work. One way of looking at the wording of summoning is that if the creature is "killed" or reduced to 0 hit points it is sent back and that it really isn't dead. That means that it can't really be killed, and one might interpret it to mean that the creature isn't truly alive in the normal sense of the word.
calvinNhobbes 04-23-07, 04:56 PM	As I read the SRD, the difference is that a calling spell brings things from another plane (along with different mechanics when the creature dies and a few other mechanical differences): As I read the SRD, the differences involved in dying and not being dispellable point to calling spells bringing a real creature, while summoning just creates some pseudo magical body for the spirit of a creature to inhabit for the duration of the spell. That suggests it's a real creature to me, and one that is unique and recallable. To me that suggests the opposite. The spirit you summon is of a real creature, but the body you form is not the creature's real body.
Mock26 04-23-07, 04:57 PM	To me that suggests the opposite. The spirit you summon is of a real creature, but the body you form is not the creature's real body. Additionally, if you summoned an actual body of a living, unique creature, that would make the 1st level summoning spell as powerful as a teleport spell.
tharivol266 04-23-07, 04:58 PM	get a big stone ball (150 lbs or so) and a portable hole. open hole on like a wall or something and roll the ball out, roll the ball down the hallway, take hole and open on floor roll ball in. you could pull this one off with a venerable halfling wizard and it wont make PETA come after you
calvinNhobbes 04-23-07, 05:01 PM	Additionally, if you summoned an actual body of a living, unique creature, that would make the 1st level summoning spell as powerful as a teleport spell. Exactly. In addition, you also can't be "creating" a true living body of flesh because that would make a 1st level spell more powerful than a 4th level minor creation spell which can only form non-living vegetable matter. So it must form a pseduo living body of magical energy (similar to the flavor of astral construct) that the summoned spirit can animate. Got to love the "science" of magic. :P
Mock26 04-23-07, 05:24 PM	get a big stone ball (150 lbs or so) and a portable hole. open hole on like a wall or something and roll the ball out, roll the ball down the hallway, take hole and open on floor roll ball in. you could pull this one off with a venerable halfling wizard and it wont make PETA come after you Oooh! Not only will it disarm pesky door traps but it will also open the door!
LordTarmos 04-23-07, 05:35 PM	I USED TO HAVE A CHARACTER WHO WOULD USE AN UNSEEN SERVANT ( LEVEL 1 SPELL) STRENGTH OF 2, TO DRAG OR ROLL A 100 POUND ROCK DOWN THE HALLWAYS ( ROCKS WERE USUALLY KEPT BY WAY OF SHRINK SPELL) TO TRIGGER TRAPS. I LIKE THESE INVENTIVE FORMS OF TRAP SPRINGING. THE UNSEEN SERVANT WAS SO USEFULL TO HIM IN ALOT OF INSTANCES THAT HE ALSO LIKED sERVANT HORDE.
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 09:57 PM	get a big stone ball (150 lbs or so) and a portable hole. open hole on like a wall or something and roll the ball out, roll the ball down the hallway, take hole and open on floor roll ball in. you could pull this one off with a venerable halfling wizard and it wont make PETA come after you this is like disarming traps katamari damacy style
Varia 04-23-07, 10:12 PM	Huh? Why is it more "following tradition" and "showing care for others" to ask a real person to risk themselves disarming a trap rather than sacrificing a little magic power on a temporary magical manifestation? Its the whole cruelty to animals and respect for life thing. Its the same reason we send people with body armor and metal detectors to clear old minefields rather than just running a flock of sheep across the suspect area. Imagine the reaction if the US did that today, hmm?
Varia 04-23-07, 10:16 PM	i dont see why it would matter about alignment. i mean think about it. the spell is yours, it isnt a REAL horse and it comes back to you later. seems alright if you asked me. That depends on how the DM views the spell etc with regards to real/fake animal. True, if its just essentially a magical force with no connection to a real, living animal then its no biggie really alignment-wise, although the apparently real blood and gore etc should remain somewhat unsettling to good people and animal lovers.
DarkflameX 04-23-07, 10:27 PM	That depends on how the DM views the spell etc with regards to real/fake animal. True, if its just essentially a magical force with no connection to a real, living animal then its no biggie really alignment-wise, although the apparently real blood and gore etc should remain somewhat unsettling to good people and animal lovers. yea I'm the DM and i dont see them as real animals, so i have no problem with it.
Mock26 04-23-07, 10:28 PM	Its the whole cruelty to animals and respect for life thing. Its the same reason we send people with body armor and metal detectors to clear old minefields rather than just running a flock of sheep across the suspect area. Imagine the reaction if the US did that today, hmm? But who is to say if a summoned mount even feels pain? Since it can't really die maybe it can't really feel pain.
Nom 04-23-07, 11:16 PM	Its the whole cruelty to animals and respect for life thing. Its the same reason we send people with body armor and metal detectors to clear old minefields rather than just running a flock of sheep across the suspect area. Imagine the reaction if the US did that today, hmm?They use robots for bomb disposal for exactly that reason. Now paint one of those robots as a sheep, and affectionately nickname it 'bob'. Does the fact that it sorta looks like a sheep make it a real, living creature? if anything, that robot is less replaceable than a summoned crittter, and lasts a lot longer too.
LCD2YOU 04-24-07, 07:10 AM	But who is to say if a summoned mount even feels pain? Since it can't really die maybe it can't really feel pain.I'm going to send PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Apparitions, after you. Apparitions have feelings too you unfeeling CAD!
Pandaemoni 04-24-07, 07:27 AM	But who is to say if a summoned mount even feels pain? Since it can't really die maybe it can't really feel pain. The spell description doesn't say they don't feel pain. As I read the spell the creature is in every way a living creature. The "Summoning" description says it "brings a creature or item", not that it "creates" the creature or item or that it "creates and body and brings the spirit of the creature or item. (How does one find the "spirit" of an item anyway.) (I think that reading is a fairly tortured interpretation of the word "brings a creature." In fact, why would the horse "reform" 24 hours later if it were a disembodied spirit? Surely the spirit is not destroyed when the body reaches zero hit points, so the "reformation" must be the reformation of the horse's body....somewhere.) There is nothing in the description that suggests "soulless automaton." You still have to make ride checks normally, for example, because it is in all ways no different than a real horse. I don't necessarily think that makes killing the horse "evil" (since you're doing it to protect the lives of sentients and you do still know that the horse will live on.) It's like a form of animal testing. Killing an animal so you can make yourself a belt, some boots and a meal isn't evil, so I don't see that merely wounding an animal in order to safeguard your life is all that evil either.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 04-24-07, 07:42 AM	I do recall reading that they used BSE infected cattle to clear minefields in bosnia. I'd rather a farm animal with diseases takes it for the team than a kid. But anyway, how the hell do these horses reliably activate every trap? It's knocked out 4 of 5 tumblers on the magical lock and trips the trap? It's only any good for pressure-plate trapfinding.
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 10:21 AM	The spell description doesn't say they don't feel pain. It also doesn't say that it does feel pain. As I read the spell the creature is in every way a living creature. As I read the spell, it is not in everyway a living creature. If it was a living creature in everyway then it would be able to die. Summoned creatures can't die. The "Summoning" description says it "brings a creature or item", not that it "creates" the creature or item or that it "creates and body and brings the spirit of the creature or item. (How does one find the "spirit" of an item anyway.) I could argue that summoning just the consciousness of a creature constitutes bringing a creature. In addition, teleporting an inanimate object is different than teleporting a living creature. Just take a moment to think about the ramifications of your interpretation: DM: Your horse disappears and you fall. Roll tumble to avoid 1d6 damage. PC: What the hell! DM: What, your mount got summoned, it happens... PC: :rolleyes: I think that reading is a fairly tortured interpretation of the word "brings a creature." I would say it is more logical given the ramifications of the above scenario. In fact, why would the horse "reform" 24 hours later if it were a disembodied spirit? Reform is not defined in game. It could be interpreted in numerous ways. It could mean that you are unable to reform a magical pseudo body for that specific spirit for 24 hours. Surely the spirit is not destroyed when the body reaches zero hit points, so the "reformation" must be the reformation of the horse's body....somewhere. The spirit is not destroyed even at -10 hitpoints. The ability to reform a "living" body and summon its soul is what true resurrection does. If that was the case, then that would mean a 1st level spell is more powerful than true resurrection. There is nothing in the description that suggests "soulless automaton." Well except the fact that summons obey your every command. Impressive considering that usually requires a minimum 3rd level spell (Dominate Animal) for such powerful mind-affecting magic. They may not be "soulless", but summons are not real creatures. You still have to make ride checks normally, for example, because it is in all ways no different than a real horse. So real horses are immortal as well?
Nom 04-24-07, 10:37 AM	So real horses are immortal as well?Horses, no. Cockroaches, on the other hand, do reform 24 hours after death, so could be thus considered immortal.
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 10:40 AM	Horses, no. Cockroaches, on the other hand, do reform 24 hours after death, so could be thus considered immortal. Indeed! :D And ants too!
Pandaemoni 04-24-07, 12:25 PM	So real horses are immortal as well? It's not immortal, it just can't die during the duration of the Summoning Spell. Once it reforms back on the farm, it's as mortal as you or me. Also, neither the Mount spell nor the Summoning generic description says it "obeys your every command" only that it serves willingly and well—in other words, as if it were familiar with you and unpanicked by the magic that just summoned it. I have to leave to attend a wedding now. I'm bringing a date. (N.B. By "bringing" I do not mean "forming a body from scratch and then forcing a disembodied spirit of a woman into said body." Ok, let's keep the posts on the subject of the thread, not other guests ...)
PhaedrusXY 04-24-07, 12:50 PM	Its the whole cruelty to animals and respect for life thing. Its the same reason we send people with body armor and metal detectors to clear old minefields rather than just running a flock of sheep across the suspect area. Imagine the reaction if the US did that today, hmm?I for one would say "Great idea". :D
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 01:11 PM	It's not immortal, it just can't die during the duration of the Summoning Spell. Something that is unable to die would be immortal, or not alive to begin with. Once it reforms back on the farm, it's as mortal as you or me. And this is why your interpretation of summoning is flawed. Do you honestly think a wizard steals someone else's horse for hours at a time. What is to stop the DM from deciding to randomly summon away PC mounts, or even the PCs themselves. Summoned creatures are not real creatures. Also, neither the Mount spell nor the Summoning generic description says it "obeys your every command" only that it serves willingly and well—in other words, as if it were familiar with you and unpanicked by the magic that just summoned it. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. In otherwords, it obeys your commands. It does not require Handle Animal or Diplomacy checks. It is not a real creature.
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 04-24-07, 01:20 PM	In otherwords, it obeys your commands. It does not require Handle Animal or Diplomacy checks. It is not a real creature. I think that's Summon Monster you're quoting, not Mount. Perhaps that is just a peculiar special aspect of that line of spells, not a general feature of summoning spells generally? He is right that your interpretation reads the word "bring" in a pretty novel way.
JerBar 04-24-07, 01:38 PM	One of the players in my group used to DM and his idea was that if your summoned creatures suffered greatly, eventually they would start to refuse to be summoned. This was his house rule, and it worked for his group. (Bobo the celestial elephant, hit and killed by meteor swarm twice in two rounds, desides not to heed the call for help.) And before anyone jumps on this saying that the same creature can not be summoned twice in 24 hours, it was not the same elephant, they just called every elephant Bobo.
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 01:40 PM	I think that's Summon Monster you're quoting, not Mount. Perhaps that is just a peculiar special aspect of that line of spells, not a general feature of summoning spells generally? It is indeed from Summon Monster I and Summon Nature's Ally, but note that he said: Also, neither the Mount spell nor the Summoning generic description says... So any summoning spell is fair game for a rebuttal. EDIT: And if there is still doubt. The elementals obey you explicitly and never attack you, even if someone else manages to gain control over them. You do not need to concentrate to maintain control over the elementals. The swarms remain stationary, attacking any creatures in their area, unless you command the creeping doom to move (a standard action). As a standard action, you can command any number of the swarms to move toward any prey within 100 feet of you. So it is not unique to the Summon Monster or Nature Ally spells. If you do not have control it is specifically stated: The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel. He is right that your interpretation reads the word "bring" in a pretty novel way. Or not: to cause to exist or occur
trapspringer 04-24-07, 02:22 PM	And this is why your interpretation of summoning is flawed. Do you honestly think a wizard steals someone else's horse for hours at a time. What is to stop the DM from deciding to randomly summon away PC mounts, or even the PCs themselves. Summoned creatures are not real creatures. When I DM in a really high-magic world, that happens from time to time on a critical fumble. 'Course that leads, logically, to the outlawing of conjuration spells, which can be fun. Just a-sayin'.
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 02:33 PM	When I DM in a really high-magic world, that happens from time to time on a critical fumble. 'Course that leads, logically, to the outlawing of conjuration spells, which can be fun. Just a-sayin'. I agree, you can definitely play the game with the interpretation that summoning spells actually teleport a real creature to you. There is nothing in the RAW that overwhelming supports one interpretaion over the other. However, from a logical (note that I said logical not realistic, magic can be logical without having to be realistic, and this is not directed at you trapspringer, this is just a general statement) point of view, as well as general playability, it makes more sense for summoned creatures to not be real.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-24-07, 02:42 PM	None of you young'uns have ever heard of the Timberrogue, it would seem. It was a fairly famous post a while back about this person who was in a group, adn they didn't have a rogue. So they bought a large log and rolled it down the hallways in front of them, and called it the party rogue.
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 04-24-07, 02:49 PM	I thought the "Summoning generic description" was the language he quoted from the SRD that describes "summoning" spells generally, not "Summon Monster", which is a specific spell. The language he quoted was: "Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells." Why would it say "brings a creature to a place you designate" and not "brings a creature into existence in a place you designate." I'm not sure there is any difference in your interpretation of a summoning spell (especially when summoning objects) and a "creation" spell (the SRD says,"A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates"). You said (or at least someone said) there is a "spirit" that you call on, but to me that sounds like necromancy, manipulating life force.
darkneolink 04-24-07, 03:50 PM	but... you know about summoning a real horse to you Bob the barbarian has horse that he uses to travle now the party is Using the horse to carry a cristal orb thast if destroyed it would destroy th universe as we know it (and I feel fine) Then Will Wizard cast summon horse being 20 feets away from the horse The horse dissapears from its place and reapears next (or under) Will The orb? destroyed HAPPY TPK AND WEE JASS BLESS US ALL
calvinNhobbes 04-24-07, 03:52 PM	I thought the "Summoning generic description" was the language he quoted from the SRD that describes "summoning" spells generally, not "Summon Monster", which is a specific spell. By refrencing the [summoning] subschool definition, he brought other spells within the subschool into the discussion. His blanket statement that summoning does not allow you to control the summoned creature using the generic definition of the subschool is a weak argument, as I demonstrated, given that an overwhelming majority of summoning spells allow you to control the summoned creature. Why would it say "brings a creature to a place you designate" and not "brings a creature into existence in a place you designate." By the dictionary definition of "bring", it could mean either. Also, the descriptions of the spell schools are extermely broad and vague. I'm not sure there is any difference in your interpretation of a summoning spell (especially when summoning objects) and a "creation" spell (the SRD says,"A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates"). The difference is that creation spells create a "real" object out of real matter. Summoning spells form magical creatures or objects that are not real matter. In addition, take a look at spells that summon non-living "real" objects like instant summons. It requires very specific preparation of the specific object. In addition, the summons fails if the object is in the possesion of another creature. You said (or at least someone said) there is a "spirit" that you call on, but to me that sounds like necromancy, manipulating life force. I said it, and note that raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection are all conjuration spells.
2nd Ed Paladin 04-24-07, 05:11 PM	I'm going to send PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Apparitions, after you. Apparitions have feelings too you unfeeling CAD! As a joke encounter you should send a PETA Inevitable after them. Personally I dont have a problem with using a summoned creature that way. Depends on how the DMs world regards summoned creatures though.
Dunsel 04-24-07, 06:00 PM	How about a bag of rats? Seen that used. I would allow it but only b/c it is not an end all be all to traps.
DarkflameX 04-24-07, 06:03 PM	As a joke encounter you should send a PETA Inevitable after them. Personally I dont have a problem with using a summoned creature that way. Depends on how the DMs world regards summoned creatures though. oh i already told them they would be fighting PETA . i plan to make it happen (P.E.T.A.- People Eat Tasty Animals)
Mock26 04-24-07, 06:18 PM	oh i already told them they would be fighting PETA . i plan to make it happen (P.E.T.A.- People Eat Tasty Animals) What about tasty PETA animals served on a tasty pita?
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 04-24-07, 08:41 PM	The difference is that creation spells create a "real" object out of real matter. Summoning spells form magical creatures or objects that are not real matter. So shouldn't a summoned creature vanish in an antimagic field, it it's made up of magical matter? I suppose it doesn't really matter, I just don't think your argument/interpretation to be very compelling. I'm not certain his is right either, but I don't see "Oh noes, you think wizards steal horses" as evidence a summoned horse isn't real, let alone that it's okay to torture or intentionally injure it. Nothing in the spell description of mount or the description of the summoning subschool suggests "spirits" are involved. The more natural reading, imo, is that it finds a horse, brings it to you and compels it to serve you well.
Nom 04-25-07, 09:13 AM	So shouldn't a summoned creature vanish in an antimagic field, it it's made up of magical matter?Last time I checked AMF, that's exactly what happens.
calvinNhobbes 04-25-07, 09:33 AM	So shouldn't a summoned creature vanish in an antimagic field, it it's made up of magical matter? Sigh, if you are going to discuss the rules, please know them first. Summoned creatures DO disappear in an antimagic field. Summoning spells are not instantaneous, they are dispellable as well as negated by anti-magic fields. And if you still don't believe me read the anti-magic spell description: Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. I suppose it doesn't really matter, I just don't think your argument/interpretation to be very compelling. That is because you do not know the rules well enough to understand my argument. I'm not certain his is right either, but I don't see "Oh noes, you think wizards steal horses" as evidence a summoned horse isn't real, let alone that it's okay to torture or intentionally injure it. You can play the game however you want, but do not claim that it is supported by the rules or logic because it is not. Nothing in the spell description of mount or the description of the summoning subschool suggests "spirits" are involved. That is true. That is my extra fluff for trying to link the summon to some kind of living force. The truth is that summoned creatures do not really even need that connection. They could be a completely non-living construct of magical matter. However, since conjuration IS the school for transporting spirits and souls, it is not a stretch to think that summons do involve spirits. The more natural reading, imo, is that it finds a horse, brings it to you and compels it to serve you well. Actually that is the WORST reading! By stating you "compel it to serve" without a save, you are saying that summons spells are more powerful than any enchantment spell. In addition, you are saying a 1st level spell is more powerful than teleport (a 5th level spell) since you can teleport a creature without error. And finally, the most obvious evidence that summoned creatures aren't real is the fact that they can NOT die! EDIT: Your reading is more appropriate for the calling subschool.
mad_warlock 04-25-07, 12:32 PM	A mount spell being used as a trap-monkey is actually one of the more clever uses I've seen for it. Another PERFECT example would be my cousin. The group went into an egytian-like tomb in order to recover a magical ring. When they got into the primary chamber, the ring was around the finger of a mummy. Of course, as per usual "touch it and it gets up rules", the rogue pries off the ring, and of course the mummy gets up. Well, my cousin, being the party rogue, pulled out a scroll of Mount that he had found earlier along in the adventure, cast it using Use Magic Device, and placed the horse between them and the mummy so that they could get the **** out of there and run like scared little forest elves. The DM was laughing so hard at this point that he could barely focus, and simply ended that nights session with "So as you run for your lives from the dark pyramid, you cannot help but feel a small smidgen of guilt as you hear the sound of a horsie being dismembered." :P :devil: