Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uniquenamessuck 05-20-04, 03:05 PM	I'm working on a new campaign, and starting to wonder if my plots and clues are too hard to figure out. It's difficult for me to step back and look at the clues from the player's perspective. The other thing that worries me is that my particular group plays D&D more like a war game than an adventure. They have a tendency to forget the details of their missions, and I have to remind them what they have been asked to do. My new campaign has a complex weaving (I hope) plot, and I’m worried that my players won’t be able to figure out the clues, and I’ll have to spoon feed them information or have to design lots of contingency plans. Some people use the free-form style of DM, i.e. no overarching plot and let the players do what they want. We played a game like that for about a year (same players, but I was not the DM). We wandered the countryside going from plot to plot abandoning plots in the middle, all the while accomplishing very little. That’s not the kind of game I want to run. Ok, so on to the clues...as the players will see them. (WARNING, this gets long) Players arrive at a farm house just in time to stop a group of bandits from attacking those within. Bandits have been causing a lot of trouble in the region recently, mostly raiding caravans. IF the players search the bandit leader... They find he wears a necklace with an interesting symbol on it, and a map showing the location of the farm and indicating something important is located in a building that does not currently appear to be on the property. IF the players ask the farmer about the building... He will reveal his father purchased the property where the previous buildings had burned to the ground. The current house was built upon the old foundation of one of the prior buildings. IF the players search for the old foundation... They will find a secret stone door leading to a hidden basement. The basement appears to be a crude hiding spot. There is a chest with a dated letter. The letter is from a man to his wife saying if she reads this he is dead... he only hopes "we" were able to get "him" out alive... signed with his name... "p.s. as you put me to rest please remember the truth will always be just behind the blade." IF the players try to find something out about the date of the letter... They will find the date coincides with the assassination of the last king who was able to unite the region. IF the players try to find something about the name on the letter... They find nothing currently. IF the players try to find something about the assassination of the king... They find he and almost all his friends and family were tracked down and burned in their homes or put to death. IF the players try to find out something about the bandits... They find that bandits have only been raiding southern bound caravans. They also find out that bandits have been striking both poor and wealthy houses, but mostly poor. Early bandit raids were weak, sparse, and often failed. New raids are completely decimating caravans and burning what can’t be taken, not one raid has failed. IF the players try to find out about the bandit symbol... No one will know exactly what it means but one person will point the PCs towards a retired merchant living outside town who might know. IF the players pursue the merchant... He will say he recognizes it, but they must do him a favor first, involving some kind of side quest. IF the players perform the favor... They will find the "merchant" has an ambush waiting for them when they return. IF they search him and his residence... They will find he also possesses a necklace with the same symbol, and he also has a map of the region with one particular location marked. IF they follow the map... They will find a bandit outpost. Clearing the outpost will reveal a definite connection between the raids and the mystery symbol. The bandits were also holding some prisoners. IF they free and talk to the prisoners... They will find one prisoner has the same surname as on the letter. With enough questioning they can determine the prisoner was kidnapped from their home far outside of the region; that the prisoner’s grandfather came to live in the prisoner’s home town at about the same time as the date on the letter; that the prisoner is very interested in recovering their weapon, which is a family heirloom, and was confiscated when they were kidnapped. IF they examine the weapon... They will find it contains a secret compartment in the hilt ("the truth will always be just behind the blade", cheesy, I know), with a note. The note has one word, the name of a dwarven town in the region. IF they go to see the local leader... He can reveal to them that the symbol belongs to a group whom he ran across in his days as an adventurer, who tried to leave him for dead, but he managed to the same to them, or so he thought. He is descended from the assassinated king’s right hand man. He and everyone in the region were certain the king and his entire family were killed. He feels that if the king’s descendant is still alive, it could lead to the region once again being united, as he has no heir himself. IF they go to the dwarf city... The dwarves know exactly what the PCs are looking for, as they assisted in smuggling the king’s heir far out of the region. They ask the PCs to prove they are trustworthy by performing a side quest. IF they can prove they are trustworthy... The dwarves reveal the destination of the king’s surviving heir, and the name of his foster family. IF they go to the heir... They will find that the son of the king’s smuggled heir is currently the modest local military leader fighting a long war against invading evil creatures, and cannot leave until he knows his people are safe. IF they help him fight off the invading creatures... He will agree to return with them and claim his place as king. IF they bring the heir back to the current leader... The current leader would like to believe but has no proof that it is indeed the true heir. IF they try to find proof... The heir can attest that the house he was born in was lost to the invading evil creatures and his father died defending it, and something evil lurks in that area now. IF they defeat the evil... They will find a signet ring that would prove the heir to be true. IF they return to the current leader... He offers to take the heir under his wing and offers the PCs rewards and titles. He asks them to help him solve the bandit problem once and for all. That’s probably the end of the first half or even quarter of the campaign. Now I know I’ve planned out a lot, but I’m also flexible. For example, if the PCs don’t trust the merchant, I’m not going to force them into an ambush. Heck if the PCs just don’t "get it", I can have them stumble upon the bandit outpost. But what do you think? Without knowing the details of the plot, after finding out a piece of information, were you able to come up with the "what ifs" that I outlined? Was I too obvious or was I stretching too far? I appreciate any feedback, and apologize for the length.
was_fired 05-20-04, 03:14 PM	I fail to see a problem since I am currently running one which is even worse.
thalious 05-20-04, 03:18 PM	IMO, it would not be D&D if the players caught on to all the plots. As a DM, my players miss many. On other hand, as a player I miss many too. If they miss it and they need it, this helps to justify the use of Diviners and Divinations.
Salrantol 05-20-04, 03:22 PM	That seems to be fairly straightforward as plots go, I don't suspect your players will have much trouble.
GSHamster 05-20-04, 03:23 PM	Make sure that you consider divination magic. Speak with xxx can completely ruin your plot. Also, be careful of railroading your PCs. Your plot has one main path, and if a PC decides that they need to go in another direction it might seriously cause problems.
Stuntman 05-20-04, 03:29 PM	I understand the war gaming mentality. I have know players who basically does something else during the non-combat situations and doesn't bother coming back to the table until there is a fight. If your players are like that then perhaps you may want to dumb down the plotlines if they are dissatisfied with the intracacies of your plots. Some players are open to exploring more aspects of RPG's other than the combat. If your players are open to the non-war gaming side of D&D, then stick with your plot. If players miss certain details, then they should be penalised for their lack of attention. By penalise, I mean make it harder for them to complete the task at hand and if they fail, they suffer consequences such as not receiving treasure or having a bad reputation for botching adventures. As the DM, you just present the players with opportunities to complete the quest. If they miss the opportunities or fail to capitialised on them, then too bad for them. Perhaps, the next time, they will smarten up.
uniquenamessuck 05-20-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by GSHamster Make sure that you consider divination magic. Speak with xxx can completely ruin your plot. Also, be careful of railroading your PCs. Your plot has one main path, and if a PC decides that they need to go in another direction it might seriously cause problems. I realize that, and I am prepared to let them make their own choices. But I have taken time to come up with the plot and the characters, and eventually the encounters, and I don't want to just drop it. So I'm hoping that the clues I am leaving are just obvious enough so the players will figure out what their choices are, and just subtle enough so the players feel they came up with those choices on their own. What I've listed above is what I hope is going to happen. Certainly the PCs could set out to destroy the bandits outright, and then learn about the heir. I hope they won't, but I'm not going to stop them. Unfortunatley I'm not the kind of DM that can pull a plot out of thin air. The more planning I do, the better my plots are. The more I read over my plot, the more I actually like it. BTW this campaign is actually set in Forgotten Realms. 100XP to anyone who can figure out exactly where it takes place.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-20-04, 04:05 PM	No, it's not too complex. Like another poster said as well, I'm currently running one that's more complex. Nearly two years into a single campaign with an underlying, unifying plot and the players are still figuring out portions of it all. ;)
Gloom of the Night 05-20-04, 04:50 PM	Yeah I would agree with others: It SEEMS simple enough, but you need to remember the single most important pc blunder: if it requires a PC to act in a certain way, and thats the only way for them to get the info, its pretty likly they wont. For example, if the PCs need to search a certain location, they most likly wont. It is always a good idea to have pieces of info that are duplicates, that way if there players miss one, they alway have chance to get back in line, and more so, it reinforces info they already know. "I think we already knew the guys name, but now we know for sure." I.E. In your write up, they need to find the chest and get the letter to identify the prisoner in the outpost right? Following the 'double info' theory, have a different location for that same information, so maybe the farmer that lives there, knew OF the name, but not anything about them "Oh I've lived here ever since my grandpa' purchased it from The (Letter surname) family back in... oh when was that... oh yeah, (ROUGH date of assassination)." With this in mind, I would simply take what info the PCs MUST know to do certain actions, and delute it, and place it in other places too. Another example of this type of sort of 'double info' laying would be to maybe to have the location of the sword partly in the letter, but maybe too general to follow. "*in the letter* ... and I want you to give my grandfather's things to our children, may they wield them proudly." That way the PC's have an idea that they are looking for a sword or somthing, AND that there are some sort of heirs to be on the look for. I know what its like to run complex plots, I've run a Underdark-like game (damn drow and thier plots!) for over 2 years now. Good luck, -Gloom
Autosponge 05-20-04, 05:36 PM	I'll be the first dissenter in the group (mainly just the voice of constructive criticism): Originally posted by uniquenamessuck That’s not the kind of game I want to run. Um, better check with your players. I specifically asked my players what type of game they wanted. To my surprise all but one said, "lots of combat, don't force me to RP, and oh yeah, combat!" I'd be an arrogant fool to give them anything else. But I do have a bunch of plots some of which are connected. If they keep following connected plots great! If not, I'm not going to twist their arms off. Ok, so on to the clues...as the players will see them. (WARNING, this gets long) Players arrive at a farm house just in time to stop a group of bandits from attacking those within. Bandits have been causing a lot of trouble in the region recently, mostly raiding caravans. Get a back up plan. They may not defeat the bandits, may not attack, the bandit leader may escape (and should certainly try), etc. Give the bandits something the group would fight for (treasure of course) or something the village would reward them for returning. THEN carry on with this plot. Also, don't make this the "opening" scene. Have them traveling somewhere else and stop in the village to rest, heal, etc. Or if they are on a patrol they could track the bandits from a previous raid and into the village. I'm just saying this because you didn't but you probably have this sorted out. IF the players search the bandit leader... They find he wears a necklace with an interesting symbol on it, and a map showing the location of the farm and indicating something important is located in a building that does not currently appear to be on the property. IF the players ask the farmer about the building... He will reveal his father purchased the property where the previous buildings had burned to the ground. The current house was built upon the old foundation of one of the prior buildings. IF the players search for the old foundation... They will find a secret stone door leading to a hidden basement. The basement appears to be a crude hiding spot. There is a chest with a dated letter. The letter is from a man to his wife saying if she reads this he is dead... he only hopes "we" were able to get "him" out alive... signed with his name... "p.s. as you put me to rest please remember the truth will always be just behind the blade." This should involve smashing through the floor of the existing house (otherwise it would have been found long ago). The PCs will should need to make diplomacy checks or intimidate the villagers into letting them tear the house apart. Once they do that, only a successful search check should point out the loose stone. IF the players try to find something out about the date of the letter... They will find the date coincides with the assassination of the last king who was able to unite the region. Hopefully, you have a plan on this depending on how long ago it was. It may have been before anyone in the party was born. Thus, knowledge (history) checks would be in order or the consult of an NPC. IF the players try to find something about the name on the letter... They find nothing currently. Tisk. Tisk. Get a back up plan. They may go as far as the Herald's Holdfast looking for clues about the person who wrote that letter. They may also make a nat 20 on a knowledge check. You shouldn't skirt around this. IF the players try to find something about the assassination of the king... They find he and almost all his friends and family were tracked down and burned in their homes or put to death. IF the players try to find out something about the bandits... They find that bandits have only been raiding southern bound caravans. They also find out that bandits have been striking both poor and wealthy houses, but mostly poor. Early bandit raids were weak, sparse, and often failed. New raids are completely decimating caravans and burning what can’t be taken, not one raid has failed. Plain and simple bandits don't raid poor people. There's no profit in it. This is starting to break down for me at this point. Things like this that don't make sense will cause the players to demand an answer (either from in game or over the table, i.e. you). IF the players try to find out about the bandit symbol... No one will know exactly what it means but one person will point the PCs towards a retired merchant living outside town who might know. Of course! The wise old merchant. Every town has one. Do they? Again, the players are likely to find this information another way. After all you have these symbols scattered all over the place. IF the players pursue the merchant... He will say he recognizes it, but they must do him a favor first, involving some kind of side quest. Boo. Don't like it. Again, a good intimidate roll means the merchant isn't going to be asking for favors. Of course he can still try to hook them, but I hate the ole "***-for-tat" plot--it's overplayed. IF the players perform the favor... They will find the "merchant" has an ambush waiting for them when they return. Again, no backup plan. Ambush especially, if done correctly, totally warps the EL of an encounter. You can't depend on the PCs to win every time unless you make it infamously easy. IF they search him and his residence... They will find he also possesses a necklace with the same symbol, and he also has a map of the region with one particular location marked. Most parties I know would skip most of this and just track or follow the bandits back to their outpost. So I wouldn't count on this having to happen. After all, this apparently retired merchant just so happens to have a map of the current outpost location and their symbol even though he doesn't appear to be an active member. It's a little cooked if you know what I mean. IF they follow the map... They will find a bandit outpost. Clearing the outpost will reveal a definite connection between the raids and the mystery symbol. The bandits were also holding some prisoners. Why hold prisoners, that's expensive? It's also a liability. Besides, you need a backup plan for "clearing the outpost". If these guys can mow down the common caravan guards and all, the PCs will be hard pressed to take on the whole lot of them. Otherwise it just wouldn't make any sense. IF they free and talk to the prisoners... They will find one prisoner has the same surname as on the letter. With enough questioning they can determine the prisoner was kidnapped from their home far outside of the region; that the prisoner’s grandfather came to live in the prisoner’s home town at about the same time as the date on the letter; that the prisoner is very interested in recovering their weapon, which is a family heirloom, and was confiscated when they were kidnapped. IF they examine the weapon... They will find it contains a secret compartment in the hilt ("the truth will always be just behind the blade", cheesy, I know), with a note. The note has one word, the name of a dwarven town in the region. OMG why? This is like one of the old King's Quest games. You have to pick up and click examine on everything. If you don't put it in your pack now, you'll have to come back three scenes later to get it anyway! I think you can see you need another device here--but that's just me. IF they go to see the local leader... He can reveal to them that the symbol belongs to a group whom he ran across in his days as an adventurer, who tried to leave him for dead, but he managed to the same to them, or so he thought. He is descended from the assassinated king’s right hand man. He and everyone in the region were certain the king and his entire family were killed. He feels that if the king’s descendant is still alive, it could lead to the region once again being united, as he has no heir himself. Local leader of what? Where was this guy 5 sessions ago? IF they go to the dwarf city... The dwarves know exactly what the PCs are looking for, as they assisted in smuggling the king’s heir far out of the region. They ask the PCs to prove they are trustworthy by performing a side quest. Yeah, detect good has no use anyway anymore (?). Neither does taking an oath in front of a Celestial being or anything else I could think of rather than the canned quest for me I'll expend 1 kcal saying something to you. It reeks of unfairness, but most players simply accept it (I'll never know why). The rest of it is fine. All in all I wouldn't call it a "weaving plot", more of an extended linear plot. Which, given the players you described, may not be a bad thing. Good luck. (none of this post was meant to belittle anyone's efforts only to offer constructive criticism where it was asked for)
Mythmere 05-20-04, 05:37 PM	They won't check the sword's hilt. The truth behind the blade is too removed from finding an heirloom weapon. As far as I can tell, the chain of clues bottlenecks at that point. If they don't find the dwarven word, the plot is finished, and there's no other way to get to the word. Either put in more clues to indicate a physical location on a particular sword (mention the message sword, or the sword that holds the key, or something).
Mythmere 05-20-04, 05:46 PM	Hi, Autosponge. Auto's post wasn't up when I was writing mine, and his is better. About side quests. The *** for tat plot IS overdone. If I'm the merchant and I'm a member of the bad guys, and the good guys show up on my doorstep, I'm going to tell them exactly where to find some tough hombres that are on my side. Then send the carrier pigeon once the good guys leave. Throw in the description of the chickens, the stacks of barrels, the pigeon coops, the well and the pasture with three nice milk cows. When the PC's find the carrier pigeon in a cage in the bandit hideout with a message saying "good guys on the way: one dwarf, one elf and two humans," they'll realize they should have taken note of the pigeon coop. This works better because the players had the chance (albeit small) to have really taken command of the situation. They just didn't, and got ambushed.
RoBo_Hobo 05-20-04, 05:49 PM	I understand none of it... but im just the meat shield in all the games any way :( no seriously though I think that your players (if they have a medium to high Int.) will have no problem with discovering the plot lines! just be care full! if I saw the sword in the corner I would take it kill the prisioners with it and take over the fortress as my keep... Hence my Chaotic Evil alinment and a DM who lost his mind
jaxpur 05-21-04, 02:32 AM	If your players aren't interested in an involved plot (and this sounds like the case) then you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you want your work appreciated. DM and players really should be on the same page for everyone to enjoy the game. I also will second Gloom's comments. If you want your players to go from A to B, it would be helpful to have multiple routes or at least multiple clues pointing them in the right direction. A chain of "if"s just begs to be broken even by the most cooperative player.
uniquenamessuck 05-21-04, 08:07 AM	Wow, quite a lot to digest. I appreciate the feedback. I'll try to respond to some of it. Um, better check with your players. I specifically asked my players what type of game they wanted. To my surprise all but one said, "lots of combat, don't force me to RP, and oh yeah, combat!" I'd be an arrogant fool to give them anything else. But I do have a bunch of plots some of which are connected. If they keep following connected plots great! If not, I'm not going to twist their arms off. I've run games with this group before. Games that weren't free form, and there were no complaints. This should involve smashing through the floor of the existing house (otherwise it would have been found long ago). The PCs will should need to make diplomacy checks or intimidate the villagers into letting them tear the house apart. Once they do that, only a successful search check should point out the loose stone. Would it really? I only mean to say if it's hidden and requires a search check of 20, would a commoner really think to search it after clearing the burned debris? Hopefully, you have a plan on this depending on how long ago it was. It may have been before anyone in the party was born. Thus, knowledge (history) checks would be in order or the consult of an NPC. When I say the party searches for information I include asking around and making knowledge checks. Tisk. Tisk. Get a back up plan. They may go as far as the Herald's Holdfast looking for clues about the person who wrote that letter. They may also make a nat 20 on a knowledge check. You shouldn't skirt around this. As a previous poster pointed out, I should double up my clues. I'll be sure to plan for natural 20s on knowledge checks too. Plain and simple bandits don't raid poor people. There's no profit in it. This is starting to break down for me at this point. Things like this that don't make sense will cause the players to demand an answer (either from in game or over the table, i.e. you). Aha, see I didn't tell you the back story. And you did find this strange, which is good. It DOES have an in game reason. The reason is that they are looking for clues about the the heir's whereabaouts in the homes of friends/family/employees of the assasinated king, not all of whom were wealthy. Someone powerful is providing them with this information. Of course! The wise old merchant. Every town has one. Do they? Again, the players are likely to find this information another way. After all you have these symbols scattered all over the place. The group who is leading the bandits all wear this symbol. Boo. Don't like it. Again, a good intimidate roll means the merchant isn't going to be asking for favors. Of course he can still try to hook them, but I hate the ole "***-for-tat" plot--it's overplayed. It may be overplayed in some gaming groups, but it's never been done in ours. And it's ok if they intimidate him, then they'll get a chance to find out who he really is sooner. no backup plan. Ambush especially, if done correctly, totally warps the EL of an encounter. You can't depend on the PCs to win every time unless you make it infamously easy. Ok, I'll try to think of something else. Most parties I know would skip most of this and just track or follow the bandits back to their outpost. So I wouldn't count on this having to happen. After all, this apparently retired merchant just so happens to have a map of the current outpost location and their symbol even though he doesn't appear to be an active member. It's a little cooked if you know what I mean. This guy isn't really a merchant. The helpful fellow from town is a bandit spy who obviously knows the symbol and sent the PCs here to be dealt with. The "merchant" is one of the inner circle members of the bandit group, and is pretending to be a retired merchant. He is a go-between for the bandits and the town. Why hold prisoners, that's expensive? It's also a liability. Because the bandits aren't just raiding caravans for the money. The leadership is searching for the heir, so they are taking prisoners who may know something for interrogation. Otherwise they leave everyone in the caravans they raid for dead. Besides, you need a backup plan for "clearing the outpost". If these guys can mow down the common caravan guards and all, the PCs will be hard pressed to take on the whole lot of them. Otherwise it just wouldn't make any sense. Good point. The bandits have spies in town, which is why they always have strong enough forces to overcome any caravan heading south out of town. This outpost is a sort of station for supplies and missions regarding the search for the heir. OMG why? This is like one of the old King's Quest games. You have to pick up and click examine on everything. If you don't put it in your pack now, you'll have to come back three scenes later to get it anyway! I think you can see you need another device here--but that's just me. Point taken. I was trying to deviate from the ask and answer method of retrieving information. I think if I put the information that is in the sword in multiple places, I can eliminate this as a device. I think the plot is too dependant on this single object. Local leader of what? Where was this guy 5 sessions ago? Using his entire volunteer force to keep the town safe from drow incursions. Letting the caravans hire their own guards to defend themselves. Having no interest in seeing the PCs as they have nothing of interest for him. If they do manage to see him, the information he can provide is only as valuable as the information the PCs have learned elsewhere. If they show him the symbol right away, he can share the story, but what can the PCs do with that info? If they show him the letter, he's not going to recognize the name, that happened two generations ago, he can only say he thought for sure the king and his family were all killed. Yeah, detect good has no use anyway anymore (?). Neither does taking an oath in front of a Celestial being or anything else I could think of rather than the canned quest for me I'll expend 1 kcal saying something to you. It reeks of unfairness, but most players simply accept it (I'll never know why). As I said before, this kind of plot device hasn't been used in any of our games before. I felt that if I didn't throw in little side quests every once in a while, it would end up feeling like go to A, get information, go to B, get information, go to C, get information, ad nausium. I really appreciate your feedback because you've forced me to really think about my plot. The more I try to defend it or make changes based on feedback, the stronger it gets. The stronger it is, the better time I think the players will have. This group hasn't ever played a really strong plot before, and I think they will enjoy it.
uniquenamessuck 05-21-04, 08:10 AM	Originally posted by Mythmere Hi, Autosponge. Auto's post wasn't up when I was writing mine, and his is better. About side quests. The *** for tat plot IS overdone. If I'm the merchant and I'm a member of the bad guys, and the good guys show up on my doorstep, I'm going to tell them exactly where to find some tough hombres that are on my side. Then send the carrier pigeon once the good guys leave. Throw in the description of the chickens, the stacks of barrels, the pigeon coops, the well and the pasture with three nice milk cows. When the PC's find the carrier pigeon in a cage in the bandit hideout with a message saying "good guys on the way: one dwarf, one elf and two humans," they'll realize they should have taken note of the pigeon coop. This works better because the players had the chance (albeit small) to have really taken command of the situation. They just didn't, and got ambushed. Yes, very good. I was going to use carrier pigeons. I like this very much. No side quest, just send the PCs to some baddies. Thanks!
CrippleMrOnion 05-21-04, 08:17 AM	Indeed. I love your plot. That's the kind of plot I write. I love little mysteries and sidequests and clues. That being said. It's too complicated. So was mine. If the players don't know how to take good notes (not something you said, but you mentioned they like hack 'n' slash wartypes) then you're doomed, as I was. Tone it down. You and I may love those, but if your players don't then everyone, including you, will be miserable. I speak directly from experience.
Stigur 05-21-04, 01:08 PM	BTW this campaign is actually set in Forgotten Realms. 100XP to anyone who can figure out exactly where it takes place. The Dalelands? :)
Calabozo 05-21-04, 01:11 PM	Maybe the clue in the sword is not hidden in the hilt but plain visible, is written in the hilt for everyone to see, in dwarven mening something that can be a name for a sword and a name for a town.
uniquenamessuck 05-21-04, 02:19 PM	Originally posted by Stigur The Dalelands? :) Can you be more specific?
Delfedd 05-21-04, 04:17 PM	yah. the problem with players is....they sense railroads if i where in this campaign, i would probibly burn the house to the ground looking for the paper, and thus not find it (thinking that was what i was supposed to do)
Stigur 05-21-04, 08:46 PM	Can you be more specific? Eh, I read this a long time ago and therefore will have to guess: Shadowdale?
Roxlimn 05-22-04, 05:57 AM	Generally, players are a dense wayward uncooperative bunch of people who would rather ruin and kill the heck out of anything you throw at them, and that goes doubly true for players who like combat. If a clue involves active actions on the part of the players that isn't directly prompted by you or not suggested by the course of events or by standard procedure, then you cannot depend on the players' finding it. For example: A medallion on a baddie that you mention immediately after combat is a direct info feed and cannot be missed. A medallion on a baddie that you only mention if they search the bodies for loot is an indirect info feed but still fairly high on the probability count since most parties loot. A medallion on a baddie that you only mention if they loot the body and succeed on a Search check is as good as a minor skill encounter with information as the main reward. A medallion on the side of a nondescript portion of the road that you only mention if the party somehow drags out the general location out of a well-concealed spy in town and only if they succeed at a Search check is a serious skill and roleplay challenge that should not only be awarded considerable XP but also valuable information in return. This sort of clue will, in all probability, be missed out entirely. In general, players look for ways to improve their characters - to level - and that means XP. If you reward information gathering with XP, then you can expect a greater proportion of "plot players" than the usual gamut of combat monsters. In general, you should run through the adventure with at least 3 completely separate ways of exploring the matter. That means the same locality with at least 3 potential overall parallel plot pathways. These pathways should generally be interweavable, meaning the group can go through one path then another, then back, or through another. This gives your plot fluidity and increases the sensation of freedom that players prize above all else. While there is truly a sense of the unexpected - since you really don't know exactly what's going to happen next, having all the threads in your hands means that you'll be well prepared anyway. This is also what is meant by dual information sources. If your plot can be accomplished in at least 3 ways, then there will generally be 3 or more ways that a party can acquire a piece of information or otherwise go through a plotline that involves that piece of information. Better still, retroactively fitting obsolete information soruces (on the fly, as it's easy enough), gives the players both a sense of wholeness over the campaign world, and a sense of passing time. For example, if they're supposed to discover that the merchant is a traitor by having him plant them into an ambush, but instead learn it though an informer, they will be that much more satisfied when they see that the merchant who's entertaining them is wearing the telltale medallion - confirming the informant's authenticity and giving value to that informant's information. If you're trying to save time, you can cheat by passing through plotline bottlenecks - situations that you pre-plan and that the party cannot avoid, whatever pathway they should take, but these should last no more than one or two encounters at the most. Most importantly, you should observe your players logn enough and well enough to predict how they would react. Most people can predict how their friends would react to a given situation, so it shouldn't be that difficult. You should know when your players will find the whole thing rather pointless and bug out.
Autosponge 05-22-04, 07:59 AM	As a side note: here's what I do to make sure my players dont' get lost in a plot... 1. Summarize each session before the next, post it on the web so everyone can see it. Include a short description and artwork for any recurring NPCs. 2. Routinely update everyone via email with stuff they can do or find out between sessions (keeps the action going while we're all sitting there). 3. Detail important locations just like NPCs. Artwork if available and a short description. Update it with the NPCs that are there or were encountered there and any other information. 4. Keep detailed notes about the organizations that are active in the story. Regularly check their entries for needed updates. 4. Keep everything in an organized timeline that I can also post to the web after updates.
LiXinjian 05-22-04, 08:04 AM	I agree with AutoSponge 98%. ;) But be warned that his campaign style is completely different from yours (mine's a mix of both your styles). That being said, most of what he said still holds true. It just so happens that in my life as a gamer, NPC-sponsored sidequests (favour for favour)and ambushes haven't been used very often, let alone once. Therefore, it's not yet cliché. I also liked Gloom and Roxlimm's ideas very much. Those medallions of yours, are they valuable-looking? What if a street urchin/pickpocket had stolen one, once? What if he had tried to sell it to someone who, he didn't know at the time, had ties to that group? What would they have done to him, for his tresspassing? What very bad memories would he be willing to share, if only to see his tormentors punished? Perhaps that urchin could point out to the PCs that the man who recommended the "friendly merchant" was among them? (generally) You can't just have your PCs walk into an ambush without giving them a chance to spot it beforehand. Otherwise, it causes much unneeded frustration. Spot checks and Listen checks are the basics, especially if a player has spent previous skill points just for this purpose. Ambiguous or conflicting reports are another way to set your PCs up for a "fun" ambush. Same goes for that symbol or all that historic knowledge: someone's bound to know the answer, and not only the bad guys. A local collector, an enthusiastic innkeeper, whatever. The point is, your ambush isn't ruined by the PCs not having to resort to the "friendly merchant" to know this answer: they might visit him only to get even MORE information than the little they know. Top-shelf thinking must be rewarded. If the PCs befriend a local history enthusiast, simply tell them some minor but meaningful information regarding the symbol. Perhaps one that is incomplete, or not entirely accurate, too. Use the symbol to establish the bad guys, and have the local unwittingly send the PCs to the friendly merchant for "more information". This option rewards players (and accounts for their use of divination magic, since whatever your local can tell, they could learn from a spell) and it also "sets up" your ambush quite nicely. Instead of blaming YOU for setting them up unscrupulously in an unfair way, they'll blame THEMSELVES for not expecting the merchant who knew so much was one of the bad guys. Another very frustrating element is clueless wandering, and I consider your plot to be at risk in this regard. Much depends on a single course of action, which, as was pointed out before, the PCs might not pursue. Be ready to put your players back on track if they move too far away from the plot. Other than that, good story. My guess is that your adventure is set in Mistledale, where that fellow Drow from House Jaerle (Jezz the lame's the name, IIRC) is making quite a name for himself.
Llewelynn 05-22-04, 01:18 PM	Just as a note...you don't have to worry about a Natural 20 on a Knowledge check, unless they have a lot of ranks. Remember, with any Skill Check, a natural 1 is not an automatic failure, and a natural 20 is not an automatic success. Set the DC for the name high enough to be missed with a 20. If they're lowish level, 28 or 30 is probably plenty. It would be hard to justify a DC much higher than that. I don't think your clues are too difficult, except for needing them to check the blade. There are a lot of good suggestions in the posts above. It should make it easy enough to give the players a shot. The carrier pigeon idea is a great idea though. I'll probably steal that for my campaign sometime. ;) - Llew
MinusInnocence 05-22-04, 04:47 PM	As an aside, why do villainous organizations always carry immediately noticeable insignia, for all to see? And, why doesn't anyone who actually LIVES in this town know about the "bandits"? For that matter, why do you keep calling them bandits? They're obviously not common thugs - or, at the very least, the mysterious benefactor directing their movements isn't. I think it would be great, after all of this and the PCs finally setting the rightful heir back on the throne... for this group to come forward and chastise them for dooming all of the Dales to tyranny. Perhaps they're the fading remnants of a resistance group... perhaps they're even affiliated loosely with the Harpers. The heir is Chaotic Evil, as are all of his line, which helps to explain why such great lengths were taken to eradicate them generations before. Oops! Maybe PCs should be more careful who they slay and who they save. Anyway, just a thought.
Autosponge 05-22-04, 08:08 PM	I didnt' know any more of the backstory than what was provided in the post. However, if you're tinkering with canon be warned. Some players who are avid fans will not appreciate it. That said, even though they are "searching" for evidence of the heir, blah blah blah. He's still be gone for quite some time, possibly even presumed dead, I still don't understand why the immediate and seemingly constant raids have to do with anything. But alas, as I said before, I know nothing of the back story.
Xavori 05-22-04, 08:52 PM	Looks pretty straightfoward to me too! :) It's a nice adventure, by the way ;) One little thing I would change is that the bandit leader stuff should be hinted somehow, like the farmer tells them that he has something coming out of his pocket, something like that, just in case the pc's dont get it :cool: Just be sure that the chars arent Chaotic Stupid... if they are, hit 'em with the Dungeon Master Guide until they understand why it's wrong! :angel:
kliate 05-22-04, 09:01 PM	I once allowed my players to find a parchment on the body of a Kobold they had just felled. Reading the parchment, one of the PC's identifyed the writing as being draconic, and upon going through the contents, determined it was a recipe for 'Human Eyeball Soup'. The bottom of the parchment had chicken bones woven into it with twine. The catch: Saying 'Chicken' in draconic would activate a secret page spell outlining Kobold defensive plans for the entire area....allowing the PCs to finally wipe the annoying pests out once and for all. The result: Upon reading the amusing recipe, they pitched the parchment and went on their merry way. The lesson: Never count on PCs to catch onto something that seems obvious to you as the DM.
Talisk 05-22-04, 09:32 PM	Its very dangerous to create a linear campaign that requires a PC to follow a certain path. One time I was playing in an adventure designed by my brother. My friend and I instead of following a set path actually decided to destroy the whole town just for fun. It obviously ruined the plot and set all plans aside. It worked out in the end due to some split second DMing. Anything could happen.:D
uniquenamessuck 05-24-04, 10:14 AM	Great stuff Roxlimn. THANKS! My current plan of attack is to break down my adventure into a flow chart. Each node on my chart will contain a piece of information. Each node will contain multiple paths to other nodes. This seems to be a good compromise between free-form DMing and a to-the-letter planned adventure. I once tried to do something similar to this though, I was going to have 3 plots happening all at the same time and I wanted the PCs to choose one of them. I found several problems with trying to do this. I would have had to do 3 times as much work before the first session. Once they chose a path, I would have had to rework the other threads to adjust for their new levels. Since the threads were designed for low level characters, it wouldn’t have been sensible for higher level characters to even attempt some of them, rendering all the work moot. Seems the best way to manage this virtual free-form adventure is to end each session with the players deciding what to do next. If the players do happen to resolve something faster than expected, then delay them with combat until the end of the session. Otherwise, I would see myself pulling one-dimensional-lackluster monsters straight from the monster manual, and interacting with bland-cardboard-cutout NPCs.
uniquenamessuck 05-24-04, 10:20 AM	Originally posted by MinusInnocence As an aside, why do villainous organizations always carry immediately noticeable insignia, for all to see? And, why doesn't anyone who actually LIVES in this town know about the "bandits"? For that matter, why do you keep calling them bandits? They're obviously not common thugs - or, at the very least, the mysterious benefactor directing their movements isn't. I think it would be great, after all of this and the PCs finally setting the rightful heir back on the throne... for this group to come forward and chastise them for dooming all of the Dales to tyranny. Perhaps they're the fading remnants of a resistance group... perhaps they're even affiliated loosely with the Harpers. The heir is Chaotic Evil, as are all of his line, which helps to explain why such great lengths were taken to eradicate them generations before. Oops! Maybe PCs should be more careful who they slay and who they save. Anyway, just a thought. I really really like what you're saying, it would be the PERFECT plot twist. Unfortulately it doesn't fit my overarching plot.
uniquenamessuck 05-24-04, 10:29 AM	The correct answer to the location is... Battledale Aencar, the Mantled King, lived in Battledale and united the majority of the Dales before he was assassinated. I have changed the background information to fit my plot. I can't imagine why anyone would be upset by someone changing the background story. If anyone has a player like this, I strongly suggest that they DO change the history. How else will you surprise the player if they already know everything about the campaign setting? How can you depend on the player to never use this metagame information? How can such a player live with themself after 3E came out? Information was changed in FR since 2E. If a player exists who feels that every word that is printed in the FR setting is gospel, then perhaps they forgot to read the part that says "This is your world, do whatever you want with it" [summarized]. The End
JonnyBoy 05-24-04, 10:33 AM	Originally posted by kliate I once allowed my players to find a parchment on the body of a Kobold they had just felled. Reading the parchment, one of the PC's identifyed the writing as being draconic, and upon going through the contents, determined it was a recipe for 'Human Eyeball Soup'. The bottom of the parchment had chicken bones woven into it with twine. The catch: Saying 'Chicken' in draconic would activate a secret page spell outlining Kobold defensive plans for the entire area....allowing the PCs to finally wipe the annoying pests out once and for all. The result: Upon reading the amusing recipe, they pitched the parchment and went on their merry way. The lesson: Never count on PCs to catch onto something that seems obvious to you as the DM. THAT does NOT seem obvious to me. Just had to say : s :
meabolex 05-24-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by uniquenamessuck Seems the best way to manage this virtual free-form adventure is to end each session with the players deciding what to do next. If the players do happen to resolve something faster than expected, then delay them with combat until the end of the session. Otherwise, I would see myself pulling one-dimensional-lackluster monsters straight from the monster manual, and interacting with bland-cardboard-cutout NPCs. Contingency Contingency Contingency! In every adventure, have a couple of encounters planned that are completely optional. If the PCs manage to get through the more or less planned stuff, throw the opportunity to engage the side quests at them. Side quests are really simple, yet they can produce amazing results -- the key is to diversify from the main plot just enough to provide time to end the session. The best plans I've seen are to have 2 combat-oriented encounters optional and 2 combat-oriented encounters on standby. That gives you the flexibility to cut things if the game is dragging or add stuff if there are problems. A few musings about adventure design. . . Simplicity with plot threads. When I speak of plot threads, I mean linear connections between certain events in a given plot. I wouldn't make the individual threads very complicated. Although it's fun when you're writing it, it won't be fun to try and follow it in a game where it's read aurally. For example: * Players take out bandit leader. * Farmer appears to thank PCs (or players pass by farmer). Regardless, the players WILL see that farmer again if they're in the area. * Farmer mentions in passing the foundation -- here's where you can get complicated. Explain the foundation in language that gets the players interested in the lead. Don't try to complicate the relationship of the farmer and the PCs with a lot of useless information. Make sure that threads are easy to follow. At certain points, the players won't be able to resolve one thread without resolving another. This is where the plot weaving complication comes in. You may weave many plots, but the thread should always be simple (: Don't allow an NPC to give more than one quest (or lead) at a time without emphasizing EXACTLY what each lead or quest is. Even if it's one lead, make SURE the PCs realize what the lead is. It's so easy for a communication problem here. Just hammer it out -- literally if necessary. In the military, instructors often stomp their feet whenever they mention something that's going to be on a test. Just have a standard way of saying the important information in a more emphasized tone or manner. Plot devices are good when used in moderation. Sometimes it's a good idea to have a simple dungeon crawl. Sometimes it's fun to have roleplaying intrigue. But it's not fun to do anything all the time. If there's a central plot, it sucks to stay on it all the time. Let the PCs get away from it from time to time. Don't let the plot take over the game -- let the plot enhance it.
Surfer 05-24-04, 02:17 PM	if it's too hard to work out the plot, have a npc vaguely point out a quest for them, giving them clues along the way, if you think the pcs won't like the quest and say bleep off to the npc, you can hint to them that there will be a fat magical reward at the end ;)
Roxlimn 05-25-04, 12:44 AM	uniquenamessuck: Always happy to help. I've found it helpful to liken a plot to a dungeon rather than to a flowchart. Keeps things a lot more neat. Side rooms represent side treks and incidental quests the party may or may not take, and like real side rooms, these things aren't always obviously nonessential to proceeding in the dungeon. Sometimes you can only go through one way and sometimes, there are several paths to go to the end portion. Nodes exist, too, but the dungeon format is more flexible in that you can provide information on separate paths without crossing into other paths or place interactions between information in a more flexible manner. While you would initially have to do three times the work before the first session, I've found that having plot fragments and various details and "equipment" ready at a moment's notice actually decreases my work in-game and makes me more flexible. Since the plots are separate, and your party only ever goes through the paths in one way, you can very easily recycle plot elements and even stat blocks with very little manipulation with no one being the wiser. A stat block meant for an ambush not taken could easily supply sudden not-quite-unexpected or welcome reinforcements if you feel like the party's being a little more brave than they should be. A BBEG that they suddenly decide to tackle head-on is a lot more tame when he's already fighting another group, and having other people do stuff the party's planning on doing, too, gives a nice sense of versimilitude. A plot element involving a key token (like a certain medallion) that the party never gets wise on can easily be used in a side quest or for further plot development, whether as originally placed, or in another context. Every time you finish a session, you have to work about as much as you should whether or not you prepared well before you started the campaign, but having your homework done ahead of time means you can be lazy once or twice, or save you butt in a tight session. Plot elements can be used no matter the level your PCs are in, but stat blocks are less re-usable as your PCs progress. It's not really as bad as you think, though. Monsters that you meant the PCs to tackle in ones and twos are easily still a challenge several levels later as cheap mass produced grunts - just randomize some hp (even off the top of your head!) and you're good to go. If you have some problems thinking about how this goes, just give me a few low-level plot elements and stat blocks and I'll show you how to easily recycle them (using most of your written notes, mostly intact) into completely unrecognizable forms, Always ask your players what they're planning next session. Then, always be prepared for them to do something else. That way, whether they change their minds or do the deed faster than expected, you'll have something for them to chew on. If you've got cool NPCs pre-made and cool plot elements thought out beforehand, you'll never have to thumb through the MM for bland monster bashes. I guarantee it.
Bykorm "The Black Rose" 05-25-04, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Talisk Its very dangerous to create a linear campaign that requires a PC to follow a certain path. One time I was playing in an adventure designed by my brother. My friend and I instead of following a set path actually decided to destroy the whole town just for fun. It obviously ruined the plot and set all plans aside. It worked out in the end due to some split second DMing. Anything could happen.:D I remember that! Dude that was awsome.