Are powerful PCs really a bad thing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are powerful PCs really a bad thing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PsychicKid
05-13-07, 02:36 PM I've read a lot that having balance in a game is key, and I can completely believe that. I have also read that no matter how powerful the PCs get, they are nothing special. There will always be more powerful people in the world and whatnot. The problem is, I want my PCs to be powerful. The game is about them, I want the events to revolve around them, even stuff that involves saving the world, even though there's probably someone better at doing it than them.

Is something like this really so wrong? Obviously I won't be giving the PCs cracked-out doom items early on, but as they advance in levels, I want them to gain in power a lot so that they feel like they stand out. That they're not just another ragtag group of people going into underground tombs for gold. I want them to end up being in some sort of prophecy that has them ending up saving the world or killing the great evil or whatever.

Is it so wrong to do things like this? Sure, it's not 100% realistic, but it's freaking D&D. Half the crap in this game doesn't make sense to begin with. Besides, I don't want to feel like I'm limiting the PCs. Sure it's cliche and unoriginal, but I'll be damned if it's not fun.

Also, I'm not going for a monty-haul here. They'll get power, but within reason. They may have an extra boost now and then, but they won't be getting artifcacts, major items, etc at level 5 (Their current level)

What does everyone else think?
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 02:39 PM Are powerful PCs really a bad thing?

No. That what epic heroism is about, it's the stuff from which legends are made.

Is balance important between the PCs?

Yes. No poetry here, it's just pretty obvious, you don't want one person to be better than all their friends because it's not as much fun for everyone else.

Should the challenges and monsters the PCs face be awesome and terrible?

Yes. It's in the fire of adversity that heroes are forged.

Does that answer your questions?

Edit: Come to think of it, I've never ever ran a campaign that didn't end with the characters saving the world. (well, except for cyberpunk but that's a very different genre).
DM_Dan
05-13-07, 02:43 PM As long as your game world is one of reasonable balance (i.e. there is a decent percentage of simple commoners, low-level guards, etc) your PCs will stand out more and more as they increase in levels. Although they will change, the balance of the world will not, therefore they will increase in power relative to everything else in the world.

If you want your PCs to have an influence on the world, this is more to do with the style of game you run than the power level of the characters. Help them out by offering them positions of influence as they gain levels. Fighters can become generals or warlords; clerics may become High Priests or influential cult leaders; Paladins may be knights or important diplomats; Wizards may be high-ranked Guild members or trusted advisors. All of these positions will give the PCs the chance to have an influence on the world, and are not completely reliant on their power level.

It is not wrong to construct your game so that your characters are heroes of prophecy and eventually become legends in their own lifetimes; it is perfectly acceptable. Some people like a more gritty feel, while others prefer an epic fantasy storyline. It is a matter of taste, and you can run your game however suits you and your players.

Hope this helps,

DMD.
Cadfan
05-13-07, 03:40 PM There's nothing wrong with powerful pcs.

But if the pcs are too imbalanced amongst themselves, that may lead to resentment and unhappiness.

Its worth remembering, though, that depending on how powerful the characters are, your story will have to change. Certain plots won't function well. Lengthy sieges of evil strongholds, for example, stop working once the players can fly and/or tear down the very walls with their hands.
Sunic_Flames
05-13-07, 04:03 PM Power is relative.

If the party consists of all fighters an equal ECL spellcaster encounter run well will probably rip them apart, as will many others for that matter.

If the players have no stat below 14 but the monsters are standard 15/25 PB fare it's not balanced.

If one player is a ranger 1/psion 6/illithid slayer 9/sanctified mind 4 and the guy next to him is a bard 20 who spent all his feats on 2/2 skill feats and weapon finesse despite having a con of 10, this is not balanced.

Note, not saying bards are weak, saying lack of focus in a character makes them such. 10 Con is too low for melee, weapon finesse is obviously useless otherwise, and those 2/2 feats aren't very good anyways.
Drascin
05-13-07, 04:21 PM Nope, not really. My opinion is that the PCs being powerful is not a problem. In fact, I love it when they are strong, because that let's me believably tackle some epic storylines. And tailoring monsters to the party it's not difficult. No, the trick is that they should be balanced among themselves. If not, people start feeling useless. And that's a bad thing ;)
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 04:23 PM Nope, not really. My opinion is that the PCs being powerful is not a problem. In fact, I love it when they are strong, because that let's me believably tackle some epic storylines. And tailoring monsters to the party it's not difficult. No, the trick is that they should be balanced among themselves. If not, people start feeling useless. And that's a bad thing ;)

QFT
Steven_Arborosa
05-13-07, 05:34 PM I'm purposely overpowering my PCs right now in my game. Why? I have an epic storyline that I want them to go through. I don't want to wait a year and a half for them to get big enough to tackle it. I'm keeping them all equal within the group, though. However, to the rest of the world, they're icons. By the end of the campaign, they will be seen as heroes along the lines of Hercules and the like, even if they fail their final epic battles.
loaba
05-13-07, 05:46 PM In answer to the question; no, powerful PCs are not a bad thing at all. Just make sure your game grows right along with 'em, it's called maintaining the balance.
zvbxrpl
05-13-07, 08:04 PM Powerful PCs are no problem. Just adjust the encounters to fit. Large intra-party power disparities, however, make babies cry.
DarkRhystar
05-13-07, 08:20 PM If one player is a ranger 1/psion 6/illithid slayer 9/sanctified mind 4 and the guy next to him is a bard 20 who spent all his feats on 2/2 skill feats and weapon finesse despite having a con of 10, this is not balanced.

I don't see this as plausible.

If the characters have fought and leveled together to get to level 20, then the Bard has to have been doing something right to survive and avoid being dumped by the party as a liability for the past 19 levels.

If the game has just started with this setup and the Bard will be inadequate for the game, then the DM has failed to communicate to the player the type of game they will be playing (assumed to be combat-oriented or such...).
celtredleg
05-13-07, 08:32 PM I have ran everything from 26 point buy, to 5d6 reroll 1-2s. Bonus feats added in, and the use of action points.

As long as the players like the power level given, then it is all good. If they dont, then its not good.

As far as balance in the party, well 26 point buy cann be as unbalanced as 10d6 keep best 4. That is more about player cooperation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PsychicKid 05-13-07, 02:36 PM	I've read a lot that having balance in a game is key, and I can completely believe that. I have also read that no matter how powerful the PCs get, they are nothing special. There will always be more powerful people in the world and whatnot. The problem is, I want my PCs to be powerful. The game is about them, I want the events to revolve around them, even stuff that involves saving the world, even though there's probably someone better at doing it than them. Is something like this really so wrong? Obviously I won't be giving the PCs cracked-out doom items early on, but as they advance in levels, I want them to gain in power a lot so that they feel like they stand out. That they're not just another ragtag group of people going into underground tombs for gold. I want them to end up being in some sort of prophecy that has them ending up saving the world or killing the great evil or whatever. Is it so wrong to do things like this? Sure, it's not 100% realistic, but it's freaking D&D. Half the crap in this game doesn't make sense to begin with. Besides, I don't want to feel like I'm limiting the PCs. Sure it's cliche and unoriginal, but I'll be damned if it's not fun. Also, I'm not going for a monty-haul here. They'll get power, but within reason. They may have an extra boost now and then, but they won't be getting artifcacts, major items, etc at level 5 (Their current level) What does everyone else think?
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 02:39 PM	Are powerful PCs really a bad thing? No. That what epic heroism is about, it's the stuff from which legends are made. Is balance important between the PCs? Yes. No poetry here, it's just pretty obvious, you don't want one person to be better than all their friends because it's not as much fun for everyone else. Should the challenges and monsters the PCs face be awesome and terrible? Yes. It's in the fire of adversity that heroes are forged. Does that answer your questions? Edit: Come to think of it, I've never ever ran a campaign that didn't end with the characters saving the world. (well, except for cyberpunk but that's a very different genre).
DM_Dan 05-13-07, 02:43 PM	As long as your game world is one of reasonable balance (i.e. there is a decent percentage of simple commoners, low-level guards, etc) your PCs will stand out more and more as they increase in levels. Although they will change, the balance of the world will not, therefore they will increase in power relative to everything else in the world. If you want your PCs to have an influence on the world, this is more to do with the style of game you run than the power level of the characters. Help them out by offering them positions of influence as they gain levels. Fighters can become generals or warlords; clerics may become High Priests or influential cult leaders; Paladins may be knights or important diplomats; Wizards may be high-ranked Guild members or trusted advisors. All of these positions will give the PCs the chance to have an influence on the world, and are not completely reliant on their power level. It is not wrong to construct your game so that your characters are heroes of prophecy and eventually become legends in their own lifetimes; it is perfectly acceptable. Some people like a more gritty feel, while others prefer an epic fantasy storyline. It is a matter of taste, and you can run your game however suits you and your players. Hope this helps, DMD.
Cadfan 05-13-07, 03:40 PM	There's nothing wrong with powerful pcs. But if the pcs are too imbalanced amongst themselves, that may lead to resentment and unhappiness. Its worth remembering, though, that depending on how powerful the characters are, your story will have to change. Certain plots won't function well. Lengthy sieges of evil strongholds, for example, stop working once the players can fly and/or tear down the very walls with their hands.
Sunic_Flames 05-13-07, 04:03 PM	Power is relative. If the party consists of all fighters an equal ECL spellcaster encounter run well will probably rip them apart, as will many others for that matter. If the players have no stat below 14 but the monsters are standard 15/25 PB fare it's not balanced. If one player is a ranger 1/psion 6/illithid slayer 9/sanctified mind 4 and the guy next to him is a bard 20 who spent all his feats on 2/2 skill feats and weapon finesse despite having a con of 10, this is not balanced. Note, not saying bards are weak, saying lack of focus in a character makes them such. 10 Con is too low for melee, weapon finesse is obviously useless otherwise, and those 2/2 feats aren't very good anyways.
Drascin 05-13-07, 04:21 PM	Nope, not really. My opinion is that the PCs being powerful is not a problem. In fact, I love it when they are strong, because that let's me believably tackle some epic storylines. And tailoring monsters to the party it's not difficult. No, the trick is that they should be balanced among themselves. If not, people start feeling useless. And that's a bad thing ;)
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 04:23 PM	Nope, not really. My opinion is that the PCs being powerful is not a problem. In fact, I love it when they are strong, because that let's me believably tackle some epic storylines. And tailoring monsters to the party it's not difficult. No, the trick is that they should be balanced among themselves. If not, people start feeling useless. And that's a bad thing ;) QFT
Steven_Arborosa 05-13-07, 05:34 PM	I'm purposely overpowering my PCs right now in my game. Why? I have an epic storyline that I want them to go through. I don't want to wait a year and a half for them to get big enough to tackle it. I'm keeping them all equal within the group, though. However, to the rest of the world, they're icons. By the end of the campaign, they will be seen as heroes along the lines of Hercules and the like, even if they fail their final epic battles.
loaba 05-13-07, 05:46 PM	In answer to the question; no, powerful PCs are not a bad thing at all. Just make sure your game grows right along with 'em, it's called maintaining the balance.
zvbxrpl 05-13-07, 08:04 PM	Powerful PCs are no problem. Just adjust the encounters to fit. Large intra-party power disparities, however, make babies cry.
DarkRhystar 05-13-07, 08:20 PM	If one player is a ranger 1/psion 6/illithid slayer 9/sanctified mind 4 and the guy next to him is a bard 20 who spent all his feats on 2/2 skill feats and weapon finesse despite having a con of 10, this is not balanced. I don't see this as plausible. If the characters have fought and leveled together to get to level 20, then the Bard has to have been doing something right to survive and avoid being dumped by the party as a liability for the past 19 levels. If the game has just started with this setup and the Bard will be inadequate for the game, then the DM has failed to communicate to the player the type of game they will be playing (assumed to be combat-oriented or such...).
celtredleg 05-13-07, 08:32 PM	I have ran everything from 26 point buy, to 5d6 reroll 1-2s. Bonus feats added in, and the use of action points. As long as the players like the power level given, then it is all good. If they dont, then its not good. As far as balance in the party, well 26 point buy cann be as unbalanced as 10d6 keep best 4. That is more about player cooperation.