Are swarm rules lame????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are swarm rules lame????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Unluckylukey
10-16-07, 08:54 AM Ok a swarm of Bats attacks a fighter who wields a dagger +2 and has a strength bonus of +2 with a damage bonus of +3 due to level hits a bat swarm once and rolls a d6 kills the whole swarm.

Is that a bit crap or is that me?
Novacat
10-16-07, 09:07 AM It's you, actually. Check this out:
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
And...
Bat Swarm
Size/Type: Diminutive Animal (Swarm)
That fighter actually did no damage, because you cannot kill such a swarm with weapons.
Novacat
10-16-07, 09:09 AM Ok a swarm of Bats attacks a fighter who wields a dagger +2 and has a strength bonus of +2 with a damage bonus of +3 due to level hits a bat swarm once and rolls a d6 kills the whole swarm.

Is that a bit crap or is that me?
Also, a dagger is a d4 damage, not a d6, and fighters don't get a damage bonus "due to level". Sounds like there are a lot of shenanigans going on at your game.
SillyRobot
10-16-07, 09:11 AM I think its you.

1) Daggers do a d4 not a d6.

2) what is +3 damage from level? Fighter levels do not increase damage.

3) Bat swarms take half damage from slashing or piercing weapons. The fighter is better off pulling out a quarterstaff or club.

4) Even ignoring the above, the maximum damage your scenario causes is 13 hp. The average bat swarm has 13 hp and is staggered. The swarm doesn't use actions to attack, so another round of damage/nausea/bleeding occurs. So the encounter managed to inflict 2d6 + 1 damage with an additional hp damage per round until healed plus two attempts to inflict nausea on the Fighter. How much more do you expect a CR 2 foe to acomplish?
SillyRobot
10-16-07, 09:15 AM It's you, actually. Check this out:

And...

That fighter actually did no damage, because you cannot kill such a swarm with weapons.

Bat swarms are statted as Tiny creatures not Diminutive. heir stat block does say Diminutive though.
Unluckylukey
10-16-07, 09:24 AM Wow I really stuffed this thread up.

Thanks guys for not saying I'm lame...... Oh you did.
Novacat
10-16-07, 09:33 AM Bat swarms are statted as Tiny creatures not Diminutive. heir stat block does say Diminutive though.
Check the errata, you silly robot. Bats are diminutive and Bat Swarms are diminutive. They are immune to weapon damage.
SillyRobot
10-16-07, 10:28 AM Check the errata, you silly robot. Bats are diminutive and Bat Swarms are diminutive. They are immune to weapon damage.

I am silly for thinking the SRD would be updated, aren't I?
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-16-07, 10:58 AM Also, you don't 'kill' a swarm when it is defeated due to hp loss. The component creatures disperse and flee the area.
Absynthe_minded21
10-16-07, 11:14 AM What I do with swarms is a little different then the rules.

First, decide how many animals are in the swarm (based on the CR level you would like to make it)

Give the swarm 1hp per animal (or in the case of extremely small animals like ants or spiders, maybe 1 per 10 animals) So 15 bats have 15hp, 300 bats have 300hp.

Instead of rolling an attack roll a d100 minus the target's AC to determine what percent of the creatures manage to hit the target. The swarm causes 1 point of damage per 10 successful attacks. Swarms attack every target inside their space in the same round.

When attacking a swarm all attacks are successful (roll the attack anyway, incase of critical strike or blunder) Every two points of damage dealt by melee attacks kills one member of the swarm (assuming that half the attack hits bats and the other half hits space between the bats) AoE attacks that cause at least one point of damage kill every member of the swarm in their affected area.

Using this method you can get alot of mileage out of a swarm encounter.
Empirate
10-18-07, 08:12 AM Using this method can also really make no sense at all. Giving each creature in the swarm 2 HP regardless of what they are doesn't do much to increase the "realism", but complicates your game. You're not running an encounter with a Swarm anymore, but an encounter with a shootload of individual creatures, that for some reason can hit automatically, if only for small amounts of damage. Also, you seem to rely heavily on judgement calls regarding the size of the swarm creatures. Which is OK, but when there are rules, they're usually there for a reason. The Swarm Template (one of the cooler and better balanced templates out there) ensures that you have to fight a swarm in a totally different way from other creatures: Weapons, especially, are not very useful against swarms. This is intentional. If you will, this is what swarms are all about! Taking this aspect out increases not only your bookkeeping needs, but also decreases the relative usefulness of area effects. How do you handle those, anyway? Judging that weapon damage is directed against specific creatures means that an area effect would be directed against all creatures in its area. That way, even a measly Snowball Swarm (the 2nd level spell) will take out any kind of swarm that you throw it at, because individual creatures only have 2 HP.
Really, just go with RAW in this case, it saves you a lot of headaches.
Unluckylukey
10-18-07, 11:41 AM What I do with swarms is a little different then the rules.

First, decide how many animals are in the swarm (based on the CR level you would like to make it)

Give the swarm 1hp per animal (or in the case of extremely small animals like ants or spiders, maybe 1 per 10 animals) So 15 bats have 15hp, 300 bats have 300hp.

Instead of rolling an attack roll a d100 minus the target's AC to determine what percent of the creatures manage to hit the target. The swarm causes 1 point of damage per 10 successful attacks. Swarms attack every target inside their space in the same round.

When attacking a swarm all attacks are successful (roll the attack anyway, incase of critical strike or blunder) Every two points of damage dealt by melee attacks kills one member of the swarm (assuming that half the attack hits bats and the other half hits space between the bats) AoE attacks that cause at least one point of damage kill every member of the swarm in their affected area.

Using this method you can get alot of mileage out of a swarm encounter.

Well i like it
SearcherOmega
10-18-07, 12:58 PM I'd stick to the swarm rules as written. They're wonderful for mobs of individually insignificant critters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unluckylukey 10-16-07, 08:54 AM	Ok a swarm of Bats attacks a fighter who wields a dagger +2 and has a strength bonus of +2 with a damage bonus of +3 due to level hits a bat swarm once and rolls a d6 kills the whole swarm. Is that a bit crap or is that me?
Novacat 10-16-07, 09:07 AM	It's you, actually. Check this out: A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. And... Bat Swarm Size/Type: Diminutive Animal (Swarm) That fighter actually did no damage, because you cannot kill such a swarm with weapons.
Novacat 10-16-07, 09:09 AM	Ok a swarm of Bats attacks a fighter who wields a dagger +2 and has a strength bonus of +2 with a damage bonus of +3 due to level hits a bat swarm once and rolls a d6 kills the whole swarm. Is that a bit crap or is that me? Also, a dagger is a d4 damage, not a d6, and fighters don't get a damage bonus "due to level". Sounds like there are a lot of shenanigans going on at your game.
SillyRobot 10-16-07, 09:11 AM	I think its you. 1) Daggers do a d4 not a d6. 2) what is +3 damage from level? Fighter levels do not increase damage. 3) Bat swarms take half damage from slashing or piercing weapons. The fighter is better off pulling out a quarterstaff or club. 4) Even ignoring the above, the maximum damage your scenario causes is 13 hp. The average bat swarm has 13 hp and is staggered. The swarm doesn't use actions to attack, so another round of damage/nausea/bleeding occurs. So the encounter managed to inflict 2d6 + 1 damage with an additional hp damage per round until healed plus two attempts to inflict nausea on the Fighter. How much more do you expect a CR 2 foe to acomplish?
SillyRobot 10-16-07, 09:15 AM	It's you, actually. Check this out: And... That fighter actually did no damage, because you cannot kill such a swarm with weapons. Bat swarms are statted as Tiny creatures not Diminutive. heir stat block does say Diminutive though.
Unluckylukey 10-16-07, 09:24 AM	Wow I really stuffed this thread up. Thanks guys for not saying I'm lame...... Oh you did.
Novacat 10-16-07, 09:33 AM	Bat swarms are statted as Tiny creatures not Diminutive. heir stat block does say Diminutive though. Check the errata, you silly robot. Bats are diminutive and Bat Swarms are diminutive. They are immune to weapon damage.
SillyRobot 10-16-07, 10:28 AM	Check the errata, you silly robot. Bats are diminutive and Bat Swarms are diminutive. They are immune to weapon damage. I am silly for thinking the SRD would be updated, aren't I?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-16-07, 10:58 AM	Also, you don't 'kill' a swarm when it is defeated due to hp loss. The component creatures disperse and flee the area.
Absynthe_minded21 10-16-07, 11:14 AM	What I do with swarms is a little different then the rules. First, decide how many animals are in the swarm (based on the CR level you would like to make it) Give the swarm 1hp per animal (or in the case of extremely small animals like ants or spiders, maybe 1 per 10 animals) So 15 bats have 15hp, 300 bats have 300hp. Instead of rolling an attack roll a d100 minus the target's AC to determine what percent of the creatures manage to hit the target. The swarm causes 1 point of damage per 10 successful attacks. Swarms attack every target inside their space in the same round. When attacking a swarm all attacks are successful (roll the attack anyway, incase of critical strike or blunder) Every two points of damage dealt by melee attacks kills one member of the swarm (assuming that half the attack hits bats and the other half hits space between the bats) AoE attacks that cause at least one point of damage kill every member of the swarm in their affected area. Using this method you can get alot of mileage out of a swarm encounter.
Empirate 10-18-07, 08:12 AM	Using this method can also really make no sense at all. Giving each creature in the swarm 2 HP regardless of what they are doesn't do much to increase the "realism", but complicates your game. You're not running an encounter with a Swarm anymore, but an encounter with a shootload of individual creatures, that for some reason can hit automatically, if only for small amounts of damage. Also, you seem to rely heavily on judgement calls regarding the size of the swarm creatures. Which is OK, but when there are rules, they're usually there for a reason. The Swarm Template (one of the cooler and better balanced templates out there) ensures that you have to fight a swarm in a totally different way from other creatures: Weapons, especially, are not very useful against swarms. This is intentional. If you will, this is what swarms are all about! Taking this aspect out increases not only your bookkeeping needs, but also decreases the relative usefulness of area effects. How do you handle those, anyway? Judging that weapon damage is directed against specific creatures means that an area effect would be directed against all creatures in its area. That way, even a measly Snowball Swarm (the 2nd level spell) will take out any kind of swarm that you throw it at, because individual creatures only have 2 HP. Really, just go with RAW in this case, it saves you a lot of headaches.
Unluckylukey 10-18-07, 11:41 AM	What I do with swarms is a little different then the rules. First, decide how many animals are in the swarm (based on the CR level you would like to make it) Give the swarm 1hp per animal (or in the case of extremely small animals like ants or spiders, maybe 1 per 10 animals) So 15 bats have 15hp, 300 bats have 300hp. Instead of rolling an attack roll a d100 minus the target's AC to determine what percent of the creatures manage to hit the target. The swarm causes 1 point of damage per 10 successful attacks. Swarms attack every target inside their space in the same round. When attacking a swarm all attacks are successful (roll the attack anyway, incase of critical strike or blunder) Every two points of damage dealt by melee attacks kills one member of the swarm (assuming that half the attack hits bats and the other half hits space between the bats) AoE attacks that cause at least one point of damage kill every member of the swarm in their affected area. Using this method you can get alot of mileage out of a swarm encounter. Well i like it
SearcherOmega 10-18-07, 12:58 PM	I'd stick to the swarm rules as written. They're wonderful for mobs of individually insignificant critters.